Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

**h-n** · 07-20-2010

Islam the only religion

All the Prophets were Muslims,

they all worshipped the one God,

remembered the Day of Judgement, believed in Paradise and Hell,

Sacrificed animals

Fasted

Bowed down in prayer (which even Prophet Jesus peace be upon him had done).

AS stated in the "Collapse of these countries" thread

Allah always sends a Prophet to convey the message, all the messages are the same to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell.

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was sent, as obviously Christianity could not tell the Arabs to repent as they were committing idol worship and the Jews were not remembering the next world. Actually they were happy to live with idol worshippers, they did not tell idol worshippers to repent.

1. The Christians/Jews say that we have copied off their texts, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was illiterate, and NO ONE at the time accused him of copying off the Jews and the Christians.

2. Why shouldn't Allah tell us of the stories of the Prophets Ibrahim, Noah, Lut peace be upon them etc? They belong to him. Why are the Christians complaining anyway, they are committing idol worship. Even Allah has said the best people to lay clam to Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him are the ones that follow after him more;-

-we worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and Paradise and Hell (which the Christians are committing idol worship and the Jews are leaving out Hell)

-we sacrifice as he did,

-we fast,

- the Kaaba in Mecca is actually built by Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him.

3. Also how did we get the story of King Solomon peace be upon him controlling the winds and the Jinn? As this was now recently found out to be left out of the bible.

4. Obviously if it was left to the Christians and the Jews, they would never have succeeded in finishing idol worship and lewd and drunk behaviour in the middle east. Actually they had plenty of time to prove themselves, so why did they not sort out idol worship before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him had arrived? They cannot say that we copied off them, as we would never have been successful in sorting out idol worship.

5. Islam is doing what Christianity and Judaism could not do, tell people to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, in Paradise and Hell. They are not going to get a Prophet now, Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will only be coming AFTER these countries have finished (which even the Christians have agreed to).

Islam has been sufficient to teach the whole world, even the Christians have accepted that "God" has been talked about more because of Islam. They are responding back to Muslims as people used to do aforetime, by torturing, and even the masses at the time of Pharoah turned a blind eye, and even though the public knew that Bush supported torture, they still voted for him etc.

6. If Islam was not in this world, its not hard to see that the Christians and the Jews would have failed talking about Allah, remembering the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. They would have just build more holiday resorts in the Middle East etc. So Islam is successful.

7. People can argue why Islam is successful is because we had supported the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. But the

- Christians failed to protect the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him when they tried to kill him. As they were more afraid of the authorities then Allah. Even though he did a lot for people, and created a bird out of clay and by Allah's permission it came alive. People were still more afraid of -the authorities.

At least if they Muslims were there, we would have fought for Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, and he will be having our support when he comes back.

-the Jews were treating the Prophets to help them live in this world, and did on their own records irritated the Prophet Moses peace be upon him. They even after all that Allah had done for them, took to worshipping the cow idol. They are blaming Prophet Aaron peace be upon him, just to try and make themselves look better. But the fact is he never told people to worship the cow idol, as stated in the Quran. Also there is no excuse to idol worship. It was a sinful act. They even told the Prophet Moses peace be upon him to fight for them so they could enter the town so he left them to wander. Even they treated King David peace be upon him poorly as they tried to oust him as leader.

8. All the Prophets submitted to Allah's will, they never changed the message of Allah. Which clearly the Christians and the Jews have done;-

-Why are not the Christians worshipping the one God? As did Prophet Noah, Lut, David, Jesus, Solomon peace be upon them etc

-Why are not the Jews mentioning Hell? As did Prophets Noah, Lut, David, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Solomon peace be upon them etc

-Why aren't they all sacrificing animals (the Jews say they will later on, but still it makes what they are eating today unlawful)

-The Jews said they are to test Prophets (which is a terrible thing to say as they are the best), who are they to test Prophets? If that is the case why don't they tell everyone how they tested Prophet Moses peace be upon him? How did they test King David peace be upon him etc

-the Jews are willing to accept females to be "Prophetesses" ie Sarah. But they have a hard time accepting Prophets Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon him? What did she do anyway preach the message? No.

9. We Muslims as above are following after the Prophets and the Jews and the Christians have corrupted themselves. We are closer to all the Prophets then they will ever be for their idol worship and rejecting Hell and holding on to the life of this world.

10. Miracles they ask for, they say they will only believe if a Prophet has performed a miracle, if that was the case then why are they corrupt??? Why are they not all believers then, and now?? If miracles truly worked, then why did they take the cow idol to worship when Prophet Moses peace be upon him was away? After the parting of the red sea, the plagues of Egypt??

The magicians at Pharoah's court did a better job then the Jews who took to cow idol worship. The magicians feared Allah and did not beg Pharaoh for leniency, they stood their ground and had their hands and feet chopped off from alternative sides, and made it to Paradise.

The Jews treat their test of endurance, when actually they were to repent as they had been clearly been treating Prophets poorly.

11. The Christians claim that the Prophets are Christians when;-

Prophet Noah peace be upon him would NOT be accepting the Christians for their idol worship,

Prophet Moses peace be upon him would NOT be accepting the Christians for their idol worship. etc

**Hugo** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by tango92

read the context, i can make anything say whatever i want to aswell. and believe me the muslims do not ignore any part of the scriture that makes them uncomfortable unlike u

The context is if the title of the sura is anything to go by is about repentance but what is clear is the threat to those who don't believe, and make no mistake it is a threat so it is an intolerant position and I find that unacceptable and an encouragement to violence and all in the name of God - see 9:38 which is all about war.

**aadil77** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

What makes it obvious? The parenthetical comments?

what 'parenthetical comments' are you talking about? I highlighted the important parts in bold

regarding your question about the quran, I don't know much about arabic so can't answer - but if you read Pickthall's foreward at the start of the translation - I think he answers your question

**aadil77** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

No. Your view of Christian ethics is incorrect. We don't think it is OK to sin.

but its easy to get away with sin, right?: no consequences of sin = freedom to sin - to the average non religious person

**Hugo** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by aadil77

hmm so you decided to refer to a verse then misinterperate it? two can play that game, except the verses in the bible are quite clear on the circumstances and the people that should be targetted.

Well you tell us what sura 9 is all about then and as you may know this sura is supposed to be a continuation of "The Spoils", sura 8 which begins with the 'spoils' belonging to God and Mohammed. So let's hear what it all means then because whatever it is its not a message of peace and selflessness is it?

**M.I.A.** · 09-20-2010

i guess we could all become pacifists even if it is only for us to understand what pacifism is.
even in this state of mind one cannot understand what happens before and after one has left the company we were in. allah swt knows best and the quran has said that if you are two then he is a third and if you are three then he is a forth.
if we are told to slay then understand there losses will be comparable to ours and it is most definatly and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. better for others to make those decisions and for allah swt to make judgement....and we do trust in allah swt's judgement.
if we are intent on making war then that is our decision if we are intent on fighting oppression and tyranny then there is always a way to do so without transgressing bounds, and if you are slayn then that is not in your control. but heaven awaits for those that did not transgress bounds, hopefully.

**tango92** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Hugo

The context is if the title of the sura is anything to go by is about repentance but what is clear is the threat to those who don't believe, and make no mistake it is a threat so it is an intolerant position and I find that unacceptable and an encouragement to violence and all in the name of God - see 9:38 which is all about war.

this is a well researched and refuted point i dont think it necessary to explain anything here. u can use google.

but it is interesting how you happily ignore aadil77's link to the bible thread. deliberatley ignoring something is a powerful compensation mechanism when you simply cannot reconcile something isnt it?

**Hugo** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by aadil77

but its easy to get away with sin, right?: no consequences of sin = freedom to sin - to the average non religious person

What you are missing is motivation. To the Christian it is NOT that the laws say this or that is a sin and we must not break the law but rather our love and devotion to God is such that to commit sin is to abuse his love for us and that is something we strive not ever to do. I don't cheat on my wife because its bad to do that, I don't cheat because I love her and cannot bare to think how much her love for me would be abused, hurt and humiliated by such an act.

**M.I.A.** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Hugo

What you are missing is motivation. To the Christian it is NOT that the laws say this or that is a sin and we must not break the law but rather our love and devotion to God is such that to commit sin is to abuse his love for us and that is something we strive not ever to do. I don't cheat on my wife because its bad to do that, I don't cheat because I love her and cannot bare to think how much her love for me would be abused, hurt and humiliated by such an act.

yeah i guess if you are really about love then every time you make someone cry you have failed.

**Hugo** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by tango92

this is a well researched and refuted point i dont think it necessary to explain anything here. u can use google. but it is interesting how you happily ignore aadil77's link to the bible thread. deliberatley ignoring something is a powerful compensation mechanism when you simply cannot reconcile something isnt it?

I have written else where on the link given but if you want to raise one of those points again do so. But here I am asking what is your view on these Qu'ran verses, where do you stand on violent jihad, I cannot google that can I?

**Ğħαrєєвαħ** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Hugo

But all YOU are doing is INVENTING what a prophet does or is, so you are deciding what kind of person God can or cannot use and in so doing leaving God out of the equation. Lot is not regarded as a prophet and we have no writing from him and the Bible is very plain that his daughters God him drunk and they had sexual relations. If it is not true why would any one invent it and make their Holy book look a bit off and in any case we have manuscripts with this story that are at least 1,500 years older than any existing copy of the Qu'ran. If we consider the Qu'ran then there is only ONE witness to what it says so as a source its unreliable.

I think this does not make sense and as yet you have not explained how one can tell a perfect message from one that is not. You keep saying the Qu'ran corrects but logically there is no way to substantiate such a claim

And all your doing is arguing with me! I am not "Inventing" anything, i am trying to prove a point, that a prophet can never be a sinner hence the Quraan mentions all those. Im not deciding what god can do or what he cannot, im saying what he mentions about the Prophets, Since he is all seeying and All knowing he knows very well what happened at the times of these prophets, thats what he mentions in the Quraan so that we may realise the truth of what really happened. The Proof is that the Quraan comes with many proofs.

A perfect message exists as in Gods word has evidence to back it up, and yes the Quraan does correct its just you who has a problem with that! Yes that statement is dangerous because your saying God is imperfect! To know the perfect message, since your on the topic of the Quraan, i suggest you read the Quraan first! Also a message is perfect, when the teachings are perfect, the one who sent the message is perfect etc. Also if you follow the correct teachings of the message then its also classed as "perfect". As a muslim i follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw) meaning the way of all the prophets (PBUT), you as a christian,do you follow every teaching of Jesus (pbuh)?

**aadil77** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Hugo

Well you tell us what sura 9 is all about then and as you may know this sura is supposed to be a continuation of "The Spoils", sura 8 which begins with the 'spoils' belonging to God and Mohammed. So let's hear what it all means then because whatever it is its not a message of peace and selflessness is it?

go read and find out for yourself http://quran.com/9, I'm not gonna summarise a whole a chapter of the quran in one post

yh islam is definately not all about this fake eutopia of 'peace and selflessness' that christians like to misrepresent about their own religion, if you're a pacifist (coward) then islam is not for you, we do believe in the right to our own sovereignty - if you don't like reading Quranic verses regarding that then stop reading

**aadil77** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Hugo

What you are missing is motivation. To the Christian it is NOT that the laws say this or that is a sin and we must not break the law but rather our love and devotion to God is such that to commit sin is to abuse his love for us and that is something we strive not ever to do. I don't cheat on my wife because its bad to do that, I don't cheat because I love her and cannot bare to think how much her love for me would be abused, hurt and humiliated by such an act.

yh well that 'love and devotion' doesn't seem to work does it? at this point in time christians are THE most sinful people on earth - seems to me an abuse of god's love and mercy

like I said: no concept of punishment = freedom to sin

In islam we have a balance of this love of god stuff, its balanced with FEAR of god, we have both which is why generally muslims are nowhere near are indulgent in sin and evil as our fellow christians are

**M.I.A.** · 09-20-2010

sorry to derail but me and the mrs just had a conversation as muslims about the different sects and how we are split into so many different sects and schools of thought and it occured to us that if we were to walk backwards where would we ultimately end up?
the only criterion for judgement is the quran as it is written.
we could debate on the sunnah but as the posts earlier in the thread were not fully expanded upon ie the phrophets and there ways, were they sin free etc etc

anyway i guess its time to call it a night

**Hugo** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

And all your doing is arguing with me! I am not "Inventing" anything, i am trying to prove a point, that a prophet can never be a sinner hence the Quraan mentions all those. Im not deciding what god can do or what he cannot, im saying what he mentions about the Prophets, Since he is all seeying and All knowing he knows very well what happened at the times of these prophets, thats we he mentions in the Quraan to let us realise the truth of what really happened. The Proof is that the Quraan comes with many proofes.

How can you prove such a point and where in the Qu'ran or Bible does it say that a prophet can never be be sinner?

A perfect message exists as in Gods word has evidence to back it up, and yes the Quraan does correct its just you who has a problem with that! Yes that statement is dangerous because your saying God is imperfect! To know the perfect message, since your on the topic of the Quraan, i suggest you read the Quraan first! Also a message is perfect, when the teachings are perfect, the one who sent the message is perfect etc. Also if you follow the correct teachings of the message then its also classed as "perfect". As a muslim i follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw) meaning the way of all the prophets (PBUT), you as a christian,do you follow every teaching of Jesus (pbuh)?

I have read the Qu'ran many times though not in Arabic. Its not just me that has a problem there are 2 billions Christians and I don't know how many atheists would laugh at both of us. The point I suppose is that because YOU believe it is a perfect message does not make it so does it?

I don't quite know how one would define a perfect message and if we could it would only be our definition so I don't see much of a way forward there and no doubt we would define it in a way that suited out own preconceptions. For example, the Qu'ran says a man can have 4 wives and sexual relations with his slave girls in Q4:3 - well for the life of me I cannot see why that is a perfect message - can you explain it? Or why in Q33:37 we have this teaching about marriage to ones adopted sons ex wife - why is this perfect?

To me these 'oddities' seem proof of other than divine authorship, do they not look like that to you or perhaps you have other 'proofs'

**Ğħαrєєвαħ** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by Hugo

You have invented a definition here but in Christian circles the terms is understood broadly in two ways. The first is a prophet my 'foretell' the future and in the Bible this is often expressed as warnings usually associated with falling away from the faith. Secondly, a prophet may simply explain or 'forth-tell' the message and therefore call people to God. So in the first sense we would think of someone like Isaiah or Jeremiah as prophets and in the second sense anyone can be a prophet. The requirements, if that is the right word, is that for His own best reasons God calls someone and usually they were men and fallible like any mean or women. No Christian would subscribe to the Muslim notion that prophets are in some way perfect and there is no evidence that they were from the Bible.

You didnt answer my Qs, and all i said is that a prophet is meant to be an example and perfect at that, and no not everyone can be as perfect as a prophet! Insha`Allaah if you could answer those Qs maybe i could understand your view more on this. . . .

peace

**جوري** · 09-20-2010

Hugo

How can you prove such a point and where in the Qu'ran or Bible does it say that a prophet can never be be sinner?

Given that you have asked this question before and before you were answered, it makes me wonder how many times you have in fact read the Quran as you allege?!
We all know where you get your knowledge of the Quran, given your previous mishap of a direct misquote, misnumbered verse from one of your orientalist website.. why do you pose as a scholar when you are a clean impostor?

I have read the Qu'ran many times though not in Arabic. Its not just me that has a problem there are 2 billions Christians and I don't know how many atheists would laugh at both of us. The point I suppose is that because YOU believe it is a perfect message does not make it so does it?

'Two billion christians?' lol I love your optimism.. take a look at the stats before stating your grievances!

as for the rest.. pls. do us all a favor and just take a hike if you are unwilling or unable to reflect over what has been, repeatedly answered, and repeatedly denied by your person!

a man worshiping fool is really in no position to question other scriptures, especially when again you have been repeatedly told, that there is no such thing as adoption in Islam, there is however sponsorship...

to the mods.

Has this fellow not broken one too many forum rules up to an including posing questions which he himself has already posed and been answered?

**M.I.A.** · 09-20-2010

fine il bite again but this is the last time,
it says dont cheat on your wives as you pointed out in your post.
it also says that those that your right hands possess are lawful unto you.

the "right" and "lawful" are the only points of contention here as i do not know the arabic meanings.

anyway you can interpret it in another way more suitable for the argument.

**Hugo** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by aadil77

yh well that 'love and devotion' doesn't seem to work does it? at this point in time christians are THE most sinful people on earth - seems to me an abuse of god's love and mercy.

Here every Christian would agree with you and it is our daily lament that we continually fall short of what God's love demands. Indeed this is a lament of every Bible characters and Job summarised how we will feel when we come into God's Holy presence - we will have NOTHING to say Job 42:6 (NIV) "Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." We then are like Job only too aware of the weight of our sins and our total unworthiness, so if there is fear, its a fear that by out sin we abuse his compassion and the worst of this is what you describe for Muslims - self-righteousness.

**Hugo** · 09-20-2010

Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

You didnt answer my Qs, and all i said is that a prophet is meant to be an example and perfect at that, and no not everyone can be as perfect as a prophet! Insha`Allaah if you could answer those Qs maybe i could understand your view more on this. . . .

I am sorry if I missed the questions can you just remind me by telling me the post number and I will offer a response (tomorrow). Blessings

**جوري** · 09-20-2010

according to Grace seeker, job is fable from the bible.. how much of your bible is fable and how much is true? can you tell the difference? what is your criteria when you worship a self-immolating mangod from whom you expect salvation yet he was unable to salvage his own self, was ineffectual to carry out his message or choosing proper apostles who wouldn't turn him in so he abrogated it through a charlatan.. I mean do you actually have criteria or just spew utter fabled nonsense while making up crap about other people's religions?