truthseeker63's Corner

format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz

I would never live under Sharia law. People with power are corrupt. I personally think having a Mullah who has the power to take people's heads off is no better than any other tyrant.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty." Ben Franklin

People with power are almost always corrupt. You will always have to give up some freedom in order to have security. The only way you can truly live the way you want is to form your own country.

Now there's an idea. Now, what to call it...

The Republic of Boaz.

format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz

The Republic of Boaz.

Well that's good for you, but I was talking about me...

Is Coitus interruptus withdrawal or the pull-out method allowed in Islam for a married couple I found this in the Hadith there are people who use this as birth control ?

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coitus_interruptus

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/11885

Does anyone know thank you ?

Just stumbled on this thread and this distinction, if there is one, between man made laws and God's laws. Been reading through some Hadith for the Music thread and as far as I can tell the Qu'ran itself only contains a limited number of laws, well it cannot contain everything can it? It follows that men had to construct the rest so most of Sharia must have been made by men?

format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze

Too Summarize, the systems are ruled by puppets of the west rather then geniunly Good Muslim leaders ruling Islamically.

This is what I call a 'cop out' - it just sounds as if you are avoiding the truth for if what you say is true these 'puppets' have been in place for about 1000 years.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

Just stumbled on this thread and this distinction, if there is one, between man made laws and God's laws. Been reading through some Hadith for the Music thread and as far as I can tell the Qu'ran itself only contains a limited number of laws, well it cannot contain everything can it? It follows that men had to construct the rest so most of Sharia must have been made by men?

Sharia is based on or derived from qur'an and sunnah, and the prophet (SAW) is the living qur'an.

I don't understand by your statement that "most of sharia must have been made by men", so can you please give us those examples where sharia laws are not based on qur'an and sunnah?

Now let me ask you about your religion, christianity, do christians actually not believe in the laws of God?

Where in the Quran and or the Hadith does it say that the Torah Psalms and the Gospel have been corrupted and or changed ?

Corruption of the Tawraat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel)

What sura in the Quran is related or mentions about the curruption of the Torah and Gospel?


Praise be to Allaah.
Allaah says about the Jews (interpretation of the meaning): “Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75]

Qutaadah said: “The phrase ‘then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it’ refers to the Jews, who used to hear the words of Allaah, then they altered it after they had understood what it meant.”

Abu ‘Aaliyah said: “They took what Allaah had revealed in their Book describing Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and changed its meaning.” Ibn Zayd said: “The phrase ‘[they] used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it’ refers to the Tawraat which Allaah revealed to them; they changed it, making what it permitted forbidden, and what was forbidden allowed, changing the truth to falsehood and falsehood to truth…” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

Allaah also said (interpretation of the meaning): “Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: ‘We hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,’ and ‘Hear and let you (Muhammad) hear nothing.’ And Raa’ina [in Arabic this means, ‘Be careful, listen to us and we listen to you,’ whereas in Hebrew it means ‘an insult.’] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islam). And if only they had said, ‘We hear and obey,’ and ‘Do make us understand,’ it would have been better for them, and more proper, but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not except for a few.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:46]

The phrase “[they] displace words from (their) right places” means that they misinterpret them and understand them in a way that Allaah did not intend, doing this deliberately and inventing lies against Allaah. [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).” [al-Maa’idah 5:13]

The phrase “because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them” refers to the fact that they broke the Covenant which had been made with them, so Allaah cursed them, i.e., He kept them away from following the True Guidance. “[We] made their hearts grow hard” means that they will not benefit from any preaching because their hearts are so hard. “They change the words from their (right) places” means that they play havoc with the words of Allaah and misinterpret His Book, taking it to mean things that were never meant and attributing to Allaah things that He never said; may Allaah protect us from that.
“[They] have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them” means that they stopped following its teachings because they did not want to follow them. Al-Hasan said: “They did not adhere to their religion or keep their duties towards Allaah, without which no deeds are acceptable to Him; their fitrah (innate nature) was not sound and their deeds were not righteous.” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

So it becomes quite clear that the ways in which the Children of Israel tampered with the Tawraat and Injeel include the following:
Changing Omitting Adding things and attributing to Allaah words that He did not say Misinterpreting the words of Allaah. When Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent, the original Tawraat and Injeel had already been altered and distorted. Allaah revealed the Qur’aan to His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and guaranteed that He Himself would preserve it, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” [al-Hijr 15:9]

This distinguishing feature was not found in any Book before the Qur’aan. From the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the present (more than fourteen hundred years) the Qur’aan has stayed the same, and not a single letter of it has been changed, as ancient manuscripts and the hearts of generation after generation of people who have memorized the entire text and earned the title of “haafiz” bear witness. We ask Allaah to guide us to the true and straight path. And Allaah knows best.


Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Sharia is based on or derived from qur'an and sunnah, and the prophet (SAW) is the living qur'an. I don't understand by your statement that "most of sharia must have been made by men", so can you please give us those examples where sharia laws are not based on qur'an and sunnah? Now let me ask you about your religion, christianity, do christians actually not believe in the laws of God?

As I understand it there are several schools of law in Islam, all created by men and the laws formulated by them. I am told there are 4 ways of making law: Qu'ran, sunna, consensus and analogy. One might say these all have to be interpreted and that means by men. Also there are many thousands of thing that could not possibly be covered by the Qu'ran or sunna in the modern world: laws about construction, air traffic control, drug manufacture and so on. Laws are in 5 sections: civil, criminal, ethical, ritual and sanitary and it seems to me an absurdity that all these forms of laws would be applicable for all time as you seem to imply. But from what you say and my limited reading your whole structure rests on just one man, an ordinary human being and that I find totally worrying.

I said nothing about my religion or even if I have one but I would suppose that Christians believe in the laws of God - what is your point?

A question for you, you whole faith rests on the testimony and actions of one man, Mohammed but what he says, like any supposed prophet is all hearsay and cannot it seems to me be corroborated so I cannot see even a way to prove God exists let alone show that he interacts with men.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife

^you should spend more time learning about the Shariah from proper academic sources instead of rushing to conclusions and bashing it. Your whole post is full of ignorance.

You seem to be saying you have to be expert in sharia before you can ask questions about it? My take here is that of trying to see what the basic principles of it's construction are - it is very normal in learning to do that and start with the basics. The point being that if the basics, the foundations are weak then it's a house of cards, alternatively, if they are sound then one might put trust in them. I am surprised that you cannot agree to this, are you afraid to examine the roots?

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

As I understand it there are several schools of law in Islam, all created by men and the laws formulated by them.

Can you tell us the several schools of law in Islam?
As far as I know, there are madhabs, which actually are concerned with jurisprudence and not directly with law itself.
And all the madhabs have the basis in the Qur'an and Sunnah, the law itself is the Qur'an and Sunnah, and not formulated by men.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

I am told there are 4 ways of making law: Qu'ran, sunna, consensus and analogy. One might say these all have to be interpreted and that means by men.

Ijma' and qiyas are based on the Qur'an and sunnah.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

Also there are many thousands of thing that could not possibly be covered by the Qu'ran or sunna in the modern world: laws about construction, air traffic control, drug manufacture and so on.

It goes to show that you can make claims and false accusation about Islam and the Qur'an but actually have zero knowledge about Qur'an and Sunnah. The laws about construction, air traffic control, drug manufacture are regulated in the Qur'an:
“If you do not know, ask those who know.” (21:43)

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

Laws are in 5 sections: civil, criminal, ethical, ritual and sanitary and it seems to me an absurdity that all these forms of laws would be applicable for all time as you seem to imply. But from what you say and my limited reading your whole structure rests on just one man, an ordinary human being and that I find totally worrying.

I agree that for you as a christian whose scripture a hodgepodge of anonymous human writings containing many false errors, contradictions and even outright fabrication (eg. pericope adulterae) and anyone can change any law and attribute it to God, universal laws that are unchanging from God seems pretty unappetizing idea.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

I said nothing about my religion or even if I have one but I would suppose that Christians believe in the laws of God - what is your point?

Do you think people are too ignorant and blind as you are and not knowing who you really are? Just watch your steps, kid.
Next time, change your style of writing too, and maybe a new brain as well.

And despite your claim, the facts show that Christians do not believe in the laws of God, or even if they did, they actually think laws of God can be changed by humans at their whims and desires.
Case in point:
God clearly commanded in the first few of His commandments: Worship ONE God, do not make the likeness of those in heaven and earth,
but soon it became let's worship a three in one god and lets create statues of god half naked in his underwear stapled on a cross.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

A question for you, you whole faith rests on the testimony and actions of one man, Mohammed but what he says, like any supposed prophet is all hearsay and cannot it seems to me be corroborated so I cannot see even a way to prove God exists let alone show that he interacts with men.

Actually, this one man Muhammad (SAW) was corroborated by many of his contemporary witnesses and testimonies, including his own enemies. And this man brought Al Qur'an, a book from God that is unchanging even until today.
In if you actually read all those posts in the past discussions, you have some idea what the Qur'an is.

Maybe for someone like you who prefer God's words to be pliable, flexible, and mangle-able by human, the idea of Qur'an is pretty scary.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

You seem to be saying you have to be expert in sharia before you can ask questions about it?

He did not say that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

My take here is that of trying to see what the basic principles of it's construction are - it is very normal in learning to do that and start with the basics. The point being that if the basics, the foundations are weak then it's a house of cards, alternatively, if they are sound then one might put trust in them. I am surprised that you cannot agree to this, are you afraid to examine the roots?

You seem to have twisted other people's words and try to be deceitful. Old habit dies hard, huh?
You were not asking questions, you actually already had some idea of what the subject is, but because you were blinded by your own deceit, you went straight for the attacks, which expose your ignorance of the isseu, and hence br. Islamiclife suggested you to read up the subject to save you time before making any useful attacks.
At least if you want to be critical of Islam, be classy and genuine about it, and I've seen no improvement at all from the old you, in fact it is getting worse.

And you clearly have some nerve calling Islam's basics weak and house of cards. Are you stealing my phrase for christianity and bible from the old discussions?
You failed numerous times in trying to be deceitful about Islam and the Qur'an.

Speaking aboiut rotten from the roots, I could just close my eyes, and pick at random any page from the bible, and I will surely find numerous errors, contradictions or even smuts. That is ROTTEN to the core.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Can you tell us the several schools of law in Islam? As far as I know, there are madhabs, which actually are concerned with jurisprudence and not directly with law itself. And all the madhabs have the basis in the Qur'an and Sunnah, the law itself is the Qur'an and Sunnah, and not formulated by men.

Well I assume you know more than me but I have read about Hanifa, Malik, Shafi etc. Madhabs in my understanding as schools of jurisprudence so if that is different from Schools of law then the nuance escapes me. Now I further gather that the Qu'ran and Hadith are 'divinely protected from error' though this seems an assumption as I cannot see how it can be proved. However, one might regard the Qu'ran and Hadith as error free but you cannot extend that to any interpretation that end up as law.

Ijma' and qiyas are based on the Qur'an and sunnah.

Of course but they require human mind to find an interpretation that links all the things together - renumbering there are contradictory hadiths for example.

I agree that for you as a christian whose scripture a hodgepodge of anonymous human writings containing many false errors, contradictions and even outright fabrication (eg. pericope adulterae) and anyone can change any law and attribute it to God, universal laws that are unchanging from God seems pretty unappetizing idea.

Have you actually read the whole Bible? If not it goes to show that you can make claims and false accusation about Christianity and the Bible but actually have zero knowledge. “If you do not know, ask those who know.” (21:43)

The laws about construction, air traffic control, drug manufacture are regulated in the Qur'an:

Where? Frankly, I think you comment is absurd

And despite your claim, the facts show that Christians do not believe in the laws of God, or even if they did, they actually think laws of God can be changed by humans at their whims and desires. Case in point: God clearly commanded in the first few of His commandments: Worship ONE God, do not make the likeness of those in heaven and earth, but soon it became let's worship a three in one god and lets create statues of god half naked in his underwear stapled on a cross.

What facts exactly and where does it say to worship one God? As far as I know all Christian believe in the oneness of God and your trouble is that you have such a limited understanding of what a person is that you cannot see beyond your own bias. AS far as I can see Christians and other non believers do not make fun of Mohammed in this board and its is unseemly for you to do it about Jesus here.

Actually, this one man Muhammad (SAW) was corroborated by many of his contemporary witnesses and testimonies, including his own enemies. And this man brought Al Qur'an, a book from God that is unchanging even until today. In if you actually read all those posts in the past discussions, you have some idea what the Qur'an is.

I have read many posts but I do not know of a single case where there was any witnesses to the words revealed to Mohammed - I would be very happy to read such information.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

You were not asking questions, you actually already had some idea of what the subject is, but because you were blinded by your own deceit, you went straight for the attacks, which expose your ignorance of the isseu, and hence br. Islamiclife suggested you to read up the subject to save you time before making any useful attacks. At least if you want to be critical of Islam, be classy and genuine about it, and I've seen no improvement at all from the old you, in fact it is getting worse.

If you look through where I have posted you will see that many posters referred me to various sites or videos or papers and I followed up each one and it is out of that came my posts. Like any educated person these days I have read the Qu'ran and other related books, there is no shortage of such materials. In this case I found particular information from the three papers cited by Uthman and they prompted me to find a few papers on Sharia and Hadith - for example, have you read the paper at www masud co uk / ISLAM / nuh madhhabstlk htm (sorry about the mess but I am not yet allowed to post links)

And you clearly have some nerve calling Islam's basics weak and house of cards. Are you stealing my phrase for christianity and bible from the old discussions?
You failed numerous times in trying to be deceitful about Islam and the Qur'an.

You need to read what I said not invent it. After reading various papers suggested by posters I am asking you to respond to what I feel are weaknesses - my concerns are about the basics and it simply cannot be that no one else has ever thought of the issues I have raised. I don't see what any of this has to do with your view of the Bible or the Bible itself so I don't know why you have raised the issue, if you want to discuss its authenticity then create a thread and those who wish to can join you there but I will not be with them.