Prove god or Allah to an Atheist.

**Auratricles** · 02-11-2015

Hello, my name is Auratricles.

I am an Atheist, I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.

**Patrick** · 02-12-2015

Dude no one can prove god. I just meant the intelligent way you went about things. I don't represent this community like that I'm new here. I just saw disrespect. It wasn't racist but I felt it man. You didn't offend them there's a difference I was offended by what I felt was an offence to them. Yes that's my ego sorry. Man I can't explain something that you have to believe no one can give you answer your looking for. To think the way you do isn't wrong but you have to take a look around you.

Do you see how the world works within this controll? We elect heads judge people elevate stature by what is pleasing to power. Everything in society is run in a way where rewarding for position or sacrifice is all acceptable.

So let me give you this example. There's a man who lives in China and a woman who lives in Brazil. The man is Buddhist the woman is Muslim. Now the man from China becomes a succesfull computer designer. Sort of like a Bill Gates. The woman stays at home with children and raises them by the Quaran and teaches them how to survive in a tough city in Brazil. The man from China is so succesfull that he begins giving lectures all across Asia about the steps to follow that got him where he ended up. People pack every venue to listen this is the Chinese bill gates after all. They take notes and when he's not working he does these lectures on the models of success. The woman stays with her kids and teaches them the quaran prays 5 times a day and never misses fast or going to the mosque.
The man stays on his path now he's famous enough they want him to write a book. So he writes his book tells everyone how he made his billion dollars the steps to become successful in his field. His book sells off of the charts. It's so motivational everyone wants to know all of the keys to his model of success.

The woman's children have now grown passed the age of home life. They stayed out of the rough life of Brazil and 2 found jobs 1 went to school to further himself. All of the children stayed muslim and there mothers teachings allways stayed with them. She continued her prayers fasting and visiting the mosque know alone but living with her sisters or brothers.

The man from China continues to tell everyone of his success. Now out of everyone who bought his best seller everyone who attended his lectures no one reached his level of success. About 5 percent became richer than they were the rest stayed the same. But the computer designer allways kept his business going strong.

The woman passed away at 75 years old her children from the toughest part of Brazil all reached a level of success no one would have predicted from the area they were from. They showed to the burial and moved on.
The man from China died at 85 out of the people he had audience with no one showed unless they were coworkers. His family of coarse showed he was not a bad man just because he was successful.

Now these two people lived off of two ideas but both believed in the same exact reward system. They did what they felt was for them to do and in there own way seen reward in this life. The question doesn't lie in what they believed. The question lies in why so many people would show up buy every book use the entire model of this Man's life to expect they would achieve even a portion of his wealth. None did. So why in a world where people believe the unattainable every day they live and desire the dream no matter how far out of reach it may seem to the point if no one achieved the man's success the belief they had in it can be considered a real thing. Why is the woman's story not told why is she ignored when she believes in a reward system that does not satisfy a craving of this earth but one that is not of it. She was just as succesfull from many people's standards. But for the reason of today's beliefs it some how seems silly to think that when we base the entire earth on a reward system to gain your way as high as we can reach that some how there can be something else that uses something similar to us that looks at us not as the world and it's models of success does but the real purpose and it's model of success.
This is a very intriguing question. And to me as a people who absolutely believe that it works one way and to follow this way is all life untill we die is not a foolish way to live if we are here but it absolutely is if we reject the same principle that has a deeper meaning when we no longer are. The story's are the same the audience and achievements are not. 1 to me will allways be more important than the other.

See things like this you can not prove a higher beings existance. But with things like this you can absolutely prove a higher reasoning of our own.

**Patrick** · 02-12-2015

Dude no one can prove god. I just meant the intelligent way you went about things. I don't represent this community like that I'm new here. I just saw disrespect. It wasn't racist but I felt it man. You didn't offend them there's a difference I was offended by what I felt was an offence to them. Yes that's my ego sorry. Man I can't explain something that you have to believe no one can give you answer your looking for. To think the way you do isn't wrong but you have to take a look around you.

Do you see how the world works within this controll? We elect heads judge people elevate stature by what is pleasing to power. Everything in society is run in a way where rewarding for position or sacrifice is all acceptable.

So let me give you this example. There's a man who lives in China and a woman who lives in Brazil. The man is Buddhist the woman is Muslim. Now the man from China becomes a succesfull computer designer. Sort of like a Bill Gates. The woman stays at home with children and raises them by the Quaran and teaches them how to survive in a tough city in Brazil. The man from China is so succesfull that he begins giving lectures all across Asia about the steps to follow that got him where he ended up. People pack every venue to listen this is the Chinese bill gates after all. They take notes and when he's not working he does these lectures on the models of success. The woman stays with her kids and teaches them the quaran prays 5 times a day and never misses fast or going to the mosque.
The man stays on his path now he's famous enough they want him to write a book. So he writes his book tells everyone how he made his billion dollars the steps to become successful in his field. His book sells off of the charts. It's so motivational everyone wants to know all of the keys to his model of success.

The woman's children have now grown passed the age of home life. They stayed out of the rough life of Brazil and 2 found jobs 1 went to school to further himself. All of the children stayed muslim and there mothers teachings allways stayed with them. She continued her prayers fasting and visiting the mosque now alone but living with her sisters or brothers.

The man from China continues to tell everyone of his success. Now out of everyone who bought his best seller everyone who attended his lectures no one reached his level of success. About 5 percent became richer than they were the rest stayed the same. But the computer designer allways kept his business going strong.

The woman passed away at 75 years old her children from the toughest part of Brazil all reached a level of success no one would have predicted from the area they were from. They showed to the burial and moved on.
The man from China died at 85 out of the people he had audience with no one showed unless they were coworkers. His family of coarse showed he was not a bad man just because he was successful.

Now these two people lived off of two ideas but both believed in the same exact reward system. They did what they felt was for them to do and in there own way seen reward in this life. The question doesn't lie in what they believed. The question lies in why so many people would show up buy every book use the entire model of this Man's life to expect they would achieve even a portion of his wealth. None did. So why in a world where people believe the unattainable every day they live and desire the dream no matter how far out of reach it may seem to the point if no one achieved the man's success the belief they had in it can be considered a real thing. Why is the woman's story not told why is she ignored when she believes in a reward system that does not satisfy a craving of this earth but one that is not of it. She was just as succesfull from many people's standards. But for the reason of today's beliefs it some how seems silly to think that when we base the entire earth on a reward system to gain your way as high as we can reach that some how there can be something else that uses something similar to us that looks at us not as the world and it's models of success does but the real purpose and it's model of success.
This is a very intriguing question. And to me as a people who absolutely believe that it works one way and to follow this way is all life untill we die is not a foolish way to live if we are here but it absolutely is if we reject the same principle that has a deeper meaning when we no longer are. The story's are the same the audience and achievements are not. 1 to me will allways be more important than the other.

See things like this you can not prove a higher beings existance. But with things like this you can absolutely prove a higher reasoning of our own.

**sister herb** · 02-12-2015

Originally Posted by Auratricles

I would like the source of that quote.

I read it from my physics textbook when I was still at school. Both Albert Einstein and Issac Newton have stated it in their works but seems this basic truth of science is older than their theories.

You hopely remember that when we are talking about these science matters, they always are just theories. The truth is somewhere out there.

**sister herb** · 02-12-2015

Originally Posted by Auratricles

No one is immune from refutation, I came here to see if anyone could give me proof of God.

We have already answered to this to you in the first posts of this thread.

As many of us have background as an atheist before, no need to continue explaining what it actually means. Also several kind atheists have already explained it in this forum to us before you.

I wish you beneficial moments with the Quran (when you have time from your more important tasks of the life for it). The first step to understand the exist of God is all yours.

Have a nice journey.

**InToTheRain** · 02-12-2015

There is no point in trying to pour something into a cup with a closed lid OR you could say a cup with a hole for that matter

Intelligence or academic ability is not factor which determines belief because we all know believers in God and non-believers come from all spheres of life. What determines belief is the individuals themselves. To be more specific it is determined by what's within the individuals for Allah Most High says:

[13:11]Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.

The thing that needs to change "within" is the Heart; not the physical Heart itself but the core of our beings. We need to desire and yearn for the connection with Allah Most High. Allah Most High says:

[2:15]"So remember Me; I will remember you. And be grateful to Me and do not deny Me."

More on the Heart:
http://shaykhhamza.com/transcript/Th...y-of-Happiness

When a person yearns for Allah Most High there is nothing in the world that can stop them from making that connection. It is Allah Most High who will guide to Him his Creation with what the cognitions can infer in the physical and metaphyisical Realm. However if someone is arrogant then they will not see this:

[Quran 7:146] I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification.Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.

So it appears that the argument is backwards. It is not God that needs to prove His existence to anyone but rather it is us who needs to prove ourselves worthy of recieving that proof.

**Eric H** · 02-12-2015

Greetings and peace be with you Auratricles; and welcome to the forum,

Atheists, or at least most Atheists, believe in science and logical reasoning.
This can be said for me, I do not just believe what is told to me, I want evidence not promises.

I watched your video link, they said they don't know what happened at the Big Bang, there are lots of unanswered questions. I am not sure how you find logic, reason and evidence from this video that there is no God.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

**keiv** · 02-13-2015

Atheists, or at least most Atheists, believe in science and logical reasoning. This can be said for me, I do not just believe what is told to me, I want evidence not promises.

Not sure who typed this as I haven't read the entire thread but this caught my eye. So you don't believe in any God because you don't want to believe in something that is simply told to you, but ironically, your beliefs are based on what other people tell you anyways, isn't it?

**sister herb** · 02-13-2015

Originally Posted by keiv

Not sure who typed this as I haven't read the entire thread but this caught my eye. So you don't believe in any God because you don't want to believe in something that is simply told to you, but ironically, your beliefs are based on what other people tell you anyways, isn't it?

He seems to believe when someone gives to him certain types of evidences - but they must come from the physics, chemistry or mathematics books only. Many people seems to "trust" the evidences and explaining of the scientist - even though they would not really understand even a half what those scientist are speaking. But it sounds scientific, so it must be reliable and true.

But still - it is what other people have told to him. Every atheists should to be scientics by themselves, as avoiding situation that someone else tells to them those matters. But we know that many scientics too believe the God and have understood the exist of Him.

**Patrick** · 02-13-2015

Originally Posted by sister herb

He seems to believe when someone gives to him certain types of evidences - but they must come from the physics, chemistry or mathematics books only. Many people seems to "trust" the evidences and explaining of the scientist - even though they would not really understand even a half what those scientist are speaking. But it sounds scientific, so it must be reliable and true.

But still - it is what other people have told to him. Every atheists should to be scientics by themselves, as avoiding situation that someone else tells to them those matters. But we know that many scientics too believe the God and have understood the exist of Him.

Including Albert Einstein who spent the end of his life trying to connect his theories with Allah

**naba** · 02-14-2015

Assalamalecum, before proving existence of Allah I just want to ask you all athiests just look at yourself who could have created you with minute perfections, why are you thinking,how you balance yourself when you are about to slip??? Why sun and moon doesn't come together??? Why we have seasons???didn't you observe that rain water is same for all regions but yet we get variety of fruits??? So to know Allah first look around your surroundings,now in Quran there are countless ways to prove existence of Allah.eg.Bernard palissy discovered theory of water cyclein 1500s before that everything was unclear about this but Allah mentioned this in ch 30 v 24, ch 30 v 48,ch 86 v 11 of

**naba** · 02-14-2015

Assalamalecum, before proving existence of Allah I just want to ask you all athiests just look at yourself who could have created you with minute perfections, why are you thinking,how you balance yourself when you are about to slip??? Why sun and moon doesn't come together??? Why we have seasons???didn't you observe that rain water is same for all regions but yet we get variety of fruits??? So to know Allah first look around your surroundings,now in Quran there are countless ways to prove existence of Allah.eg.Bernard palissy discovered theory of water cyclein 1500s before that everything was unclear about this but Allah mentioned this in ch 30 v 24, ch 30 v 48,ch 86 v 11 of Quran 1400 years ago.Allah in ch 51 v 47 of Quran says Allah is the expander of universe 1400 yrs ago.edwim hubble discovered this fact in 1900s.who could have said such advanced things 1400 yrs ago.because prophet Muhammad S.A.W ( pbuh ) was illiterate. Certainly it is Allah who wrote that.

**Patrick** · 02-14-2015

I would just like before someone asks that broad of a question they at least take time to understand the people and the other topics in this community. To me maybe that's what frustrated me a little. You can't just go into a place and have your first post be prove to me Allah exists.

To me even if you want to disbelieve it's ok that's any ones choice. But that's a huge question to ask a group of individuals you've never encountered before or took the time to see how they thought about other things. No one should just go into a college seek out a professor and say tell the reason of everything you teach now or I won't be attending this school!

It's just a little too much.

**sister herb** · 02-14-2015

^^ You are right. Coming here and asking to explain something like this in one sentence (or in one post) is quite absurd demand. Many of us were looking for the understanding to same question for years. I came to islam from similar background as I was an atheist and it took me about 7 years thinking and asking and looking for more knowledge before I was sure what I am doing and ready to say shahada.

**Abz2000** · 02-28-2015

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

Hmmm, it's quite a pickle isn't it, magical illusions of the mind or reality.....

Hopefully you'll study the Quran and others texts sincerely and use the wonderful gifts of intellect you have been given in order to sift the wheat from the husk.
And next time you're watching hollywood or fox news or the sort - the wonderful power of illusion in weaving/making the obvious into doubtful and false into imaginary real - wonder if that's what was being being alluded to. There's a difference between commentary and false narrative, the program to detect malware (call bullsh*t) has been released, the question is, are your faculties of understanding up to the job of brushing past the falsehood and seeing the truth for what it is?

The sorcerers bewitched the eyes of the people. Moses - by God's leave - countered it with truth and reality.

Also, with your question in mind, think of the evolution of species, can any human being actually prove that human beings came from bacteria, amoeba, and leech like creepy crawlies?
The answer is - No - other than in the womb.
However, our faculties of intellect do lead us to acknowledge that there does seem to be a process, when we look at lions, tigers, ligers, when we look at the way genes change to adapt to climate and viruses, the human immune system, how the human brain adapts to constantly being told the truth or constantly being lied to or deceived, how the digestive system adapts to different diets, and so many other findings and observations that compel us to sit up and think.

I would like to note that the guidance of Allah helps us to understand certain phenomenon without being arrogant and jumping on the false "team" bandwagon (just because the pope says the earth is flat, and just because one may be seen as a heretic by the others) Allah tells us that Jesus is like Adam, both are from dust, yet He tells us that Adam was moulded into shape by His hands, and that Jesus was conceived in the womb of a virgin and came about through a biological process, and in that process we are shown how humans come from solid suspended in fluid, then the evolutionary process is flicked through in edited scenes until the human appears, another anology of the process is demonstrated in reverse during decomposition through bacteria to soil.

And we are told that the children of Adam were brought out from his loins to be questioned even before we came here, but we know that we appeared on earth through a process, and if Jesus is like Adam, then there is no reason (in the absence of evidence to the contrary) to deny the possibilty that mankind appeared through an evolutionary process.
It is indeed the false divide, and not Allah, that causes us to cast aside our faculties of reason and to just join teams based on prejudice.
We live in a global era where we're going to have to make the choice between truth and falsehood, justice and injustice, sincerity and deceit, it is imperative that we use our faculties of reason to adhere to truth. America is not God ok? It's a piece of mud that God has created, it is not a clay idol to be worshipped or owed allegiance to in spite of God, And up until now it's leadership has been immersed in deceit.
God who created the heavens and the earth and all between will judge obama and me and you too - think.

If someone told you that water was wet and you knew in your heart that water was wet - would you wait for them to throw a bucket of water on you to prove it?

God will unmask Himself on the day of judgement but it won't give you anything extra or less on that day if you had denied the obvious before, and God sets many parables for mankind in His creation.

Think, don't compartmentalize events in order to purposefully draw a false conclusion, it won't work just as local copyright laws don't work in this global age of internet and copy paste.

We are approaching a t-junction and time is short. Think.

**Johnathan** · 03-02-2015

Originally Posted by Auratricles

Hello, my name is Auratricles.

I am an Atheist, I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, .........

Hi Auratricles. How many years did you spend in the study of scripture, related history and archaeology, and subjects like Bible prophecy and the fulfillment and even mathematical precision thereof, before drawing your conclusion that follows?

Originally Posted by Auratricles

........ ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.

**Abz2000** · 03-02-2015

Hi Auratricles. How many years did you spend in the study of scripture, related history and archaeology, and subjects like Bible prophecy and the fulfillment and even mathematical precision thereof, before drawing your conclusion that follows?

Not much of an argument since we know that most Prophets had a very basic scholastic education, and so did their companions/disciples.

Mostly it comes down to using the brain sincerely and truthfully although the education is highly useful - unless it's false conditioning.

You can sometimes fool a lawyer but not a boy on the street.

The reason why most jews got duped by their priests when jesus came is becuase they were told they didn't have the authority to question the doctrines which jesus was taking apart, the cheeky doctors of law even asked Jesus on whose authority he preached (something they couldn't have logically asked if he had a degree).

It is recorded that when Gabriel (as) came to Muhammad (pbuh), he said

"iqra" which is translated as: "READ"

his reply is recorded as:
ma ana bi qari’in*
Which has three possible meanings;‘
I am not a reader’,
*‘I do not read’*
and*‘I will not read’.

I would advise you to read "the king's new clothes",
It's highly educational.
It took a child to call the constructed bs.

10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which*men*deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it*is*sealed:*

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying,
Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I am not learned.

13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near*me*with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,*even*a marvellous work and a wonder:
For the wisdom of their wise*men*shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent*men*shall be hid.

15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Isaiah 29:10-16

1.*Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare the Praises and Glory of Allah,- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

2.*It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-

3.*As well as (to confer all these benefits upon) others of them, who have not already joined them: And He is exalted in Might, Wise.

4.*Such is the Bounty of Allah, which He bestows on whom He will: and Allah is the Lord of the highest bounty.
5.*The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah. and Allah guides not an unjust nation.
Surah 62. The Congregation, Friday
Verses 1-5

These people were illiterate, but they weren't stupid or willfully blinded by greed, they had or developed sincerity and humility, and they used the brains that God gave them to see truth from falsehood and error.

**Johnathan** · 03-02-2015

Originally Posted by Abz2000

Not much of an argument since we know that most Prophets had a very basic scholastic education, and so did their companions/disciples.

Which isn't really relevant (at least from a Christian perspective), since we recognize the prophets weren't writing on their own behalf, but rather were inspired by God to write what they wrote.
So their educational background didn't matter (though many were well educated).

I have found that the question I asked is a very good one to ask of atheists, since nearly every time I have asked it, the answer is invariably that they have spent little to no time in the study of scripture, related history, archaeology, or fulfilled Bible prophecy and the mathematical precision thereof.

So the obvious question that follows is: How many other subjects are they so firmly decided about and committed to, while insisting on self-admitted, self-imposed, abject ignorance to the very thing they are expressing an opinion about!
As he put it:

I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

Only by strict definition is atheism less of a religion than any others and perhaps it is even more so since atheists, as contrasted to most people of faith, almost universally operate on pure blind faith in their DISbelief. They even indoctrinate each other into uniform, and what become inviolable beliefs, that they parade around as truth when it isn't.

Even while the atheist that logged in here for example, thinks it's perfectly reasonable to believe that everything came from nothing!

**sister herb** · 03-03-2015

Interesting thing with those atheists is that their believing starts from the exist of God. They decide to believe there is not the God. They say that here is no scientific proof how to prove that the God exists and then they start to looking for scientific proof for it.

Even at this stage, they testify against themselves.

**greenhill** · 03-04-2015

Hi Auraticles,

Originally Posted by Auratricles

It doesn't take a genius to write a book like the Bible or Qur'an or any other holy book.

Not possible. Wherever a human being attempts it, it will be filled with flaws. Scientology, is it a growing belief? If you take a look a the Quran in a bit more detail, you will see many things (not necessarily just the message) that is incorporated into the text as a safe guard which is impossible to achieve as human. How many statements put in the verses of the Quran which had no scientific basis back then is only proven in recent times (when we had the technology to discover it). No, it is not a possible for human to reproduce such script.

Originally Posted by Auratricles

Also, if he is this higher all knowing intelligence that made us all, then why can't we have just been born with the knowledge, he knows what we'll do since he's all knowing, so why did he put us here.

On this note, let me put it in a simpler way. If it was to be said, "Do this and it may auger well for you" (the emphasis is so that you can choose) you then weigh the situation and make that decision (your choice) whether or not to do it. Now, it could be said, "Do this if not you die tomorrow!" there is no longer any contemplative stage for you. The decision is pretty much made. You do it, if not you die tomorrow. Where is the choice?

So if God made Himself apparent for all, in reality then, we are not given choice (or free will), it will not be about reflection and discovery, and us making that choice. It is pretty much forced onto us to accept it.

People say hes here to test us, well guess what, he knows what's going to happen, so why does he need to test us?

Originally Posted by Auratricles

I came here to see if anyone could give me proof of God.

You see, to say that He Knows what is going to happen, we really cannot put ourselves in the same league of understanding. If we can put down the probabilities of all our actions and consequences then we would also know the end result for us if we were to take a certain course of action and also if we were to take another course of action or even no action at all. But of course we cannot have the infinite list of possibilities (not the same predicament for Allah swt). The fact that Allah is All Knowing, then does not negate the fact that we still have to make that choice!

When Allah said to the angels that He was going to place a viceroy on Earth, He knew that Adam would have to make a decision. When Adam does make that decision, it will mark the time that Adam is ready to be placed on Earth. So, Allah left him alone to 'grow' and build up his understanding before he finally made that decision. Allah neither urged him nor refrained him. All He said was 'approach not this tree...' which Adam (pbuh) decided that it was OK to do so. That was his choice.

So now, here we are, with free will to make a choice (which Allah will leave entirely up to the individual) because we can see from the past stories that people will choose for themselves what they want to believe (I think some examples have been given above, but I'll give other(s)). Jesus had (at the request of some) a table spread with food from heaven to prove the existence of Allah, some ate from it and became believers, yet others still refused. Or the story of the she-camel coming out of a rock and immediately giving birth to a young, again to prove but still those who requested for the specific miracle refused to belief and killed the she camel.

That is the strength of the individual's choice. In the end, we cannot blame it on Allah because if we want to find the truth, we could (without the need of miracles) if we want to deny the truth, whatever miracles happen, we will still be blind to it.

**Lavitz** · 03-04-2015

Originally Posted by sister herb

Interesting thing with those atheists is that their believing starts from the exist of God. They decide to believe there is not the God. They say that here is no scientific proof how to prove that the God exists and then they start to looking for scientific proof for it.

Even at this stage, they testify against themselves.

True, which is why intellectuals in the West prefer agnosticism over atheism.