@huzaifah ibn Adam, do you have actual arguments or are you just going to make quotes that support your fascist perspective?
Well, you're an Agnostic, so the post isn't for you. You wouldn't understand it. The post is for the Muslims to read so that they know what the actual ruling of Islaam is on this topic. You see, Muslims follow the Sahaabah (the Companions of Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم), and this was the official verdict of the Sahaabah. So, case closed. There are no arguments to be had. Those who don't like it can leave Islaam and become Christians, or Agnostics like you. But Islaam will never change.
Can't an Islamic scholar call for the murder of homosexuals in peace?
Peace
One thing to keep in mind is that Islamic rulings apply in Muslim lands.
Since your are neither a Muslim nor do you live in a Muslim country, you don't have to worry about it at all.
A Muslim nation is a sovereign nation. You don't have a right to interfere with the internal policies of a Muslim nation.
One thing to keep in mind is that Islamic rulings apply in Muslim lands.
Since your are neither a Muslim nor do you live in a Muslim country, you don't have to worry about it at all.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we are all human beings, and homosexuals have in fact suffered violence and persecution at the hands of Muslims in the country where I live, following the teachings of people like your benighted "scholar", so I shall certainly not be afraid to register my opposition to such disgusting attitudes, thank you very much.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we are all human beings, and homosexuals have in fact suffered violence and persecution at the hands of Muslims in the country where I live, following the teachings of people like your benighted "scholar", so I shall certainly not be afraid to register my opposition to such disgusting attitudes, thank you very much.
Peace
Wrong. Those brothers generally do not accept the Ulamaa of today. But of course you wouldn't know that. They regard the contemporary Ulamaa as sell-outs and so do not rely on their rulings or "teachings". They read the Qur'aan and Ahaadeeth themselves. That's why, no matter how many times the "scholars for dollars" howl like dogs on a street-corner after some attack has been carried out, it won't affect them or their actions, because in the first place they really don't care what any contemporary "scholar" has to say.
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
Another thing to keep in mind is that we are all human beings, and homosexuals have in fact suffered violence and persecution at the hands of Muslims in the country where I live, following the teachings of people like your benighted "scholar", so I shall certainly not be afraid to register my opposition to such disgusting attitudes, thank you very much.
Peace
I don't mind you registering your opposition. However, to say that vigilante violence is accounted due to anyone but the individuals themselves is incorrect. And let's remember we've already had this debate on homosexuality and Islam.
People like you are the reason why I am questioning my faith.
No one will have an excuse on the Day of Judgement, and no one will get away with blaming someone else. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Even Iblees on that day will say, "Don't blame me, blame yourselves. I simply called you and you followed me." There are no excuses. Someone who dies as a Kaafir will end up in Jahannam, and they can blame the whole world and everyone in it for that, but it won't change anything. Even in this world, people who are forever going around blaming everyone else for their own failures are regarded as useless.
Stop blaming everyone else. The world isn't there to spoon-feed you. You will answer for yourself. Everyone will be in their Qabr (grave) by themselves. Answer for themselves. Face the consequences of their words and actions by themselves.
One thing to keep in mind is that Islamic rulings apply in Muslim lands.
Since your are neither a Muslim nor do you live in a Muslim country, you don't have to worry about it at all.
A Muslim nation is a sovereign nation. You don't have a right to interfere with the internal policies of a Muslim nation.
Yes, we have good reasons to worry about it all because it affects us all (or it eventually will)... what goes around comes around.
Either way, non-Muslims have Muslims living in their communities, they have Muslim friends and neighbours, hell, they are potential Muslims themselves. So they have every right to disagree and voice their opinions.
Last edited by fromelsewhere; 12-27-2016 at 12:34 AM.
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
I don't mind you registering your opposition. However, to say that vigilante violence is accounted due to anyone but the individuals themselves is incorrect. And let's remember we've already had this debate on homosexuality and Islam.
And I see plenty more evidence in this thread supporting my side of that debate. I say Islamic teachings cause people to hate homosexuals. How could it be clearer? We have an Islamic "scholar" here openly calling for the murder of gay people. Is it completely beyond the bounds of possibility that his words have caused frabgas to feel emboldened and to launch an attack on me as if I were a gay person? Can you not feel the hatred emanating from his words?
(Thanks to you, Search, for your characteristically eloquent defence of my right to an opinion. Your obvious goodness shines amongst the hate we've seen displayed tonight. Phew! What an evening it's been!)
I say Islamic teachings cause people to hate homosexuals.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I say Islamic teachings cause people to hate homosexuals.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I say Islamic teachings cause people to hate homosexuals.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Islamic teachings cause people to hate homosexuals.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Islamic teachings
The cat is out of the bag.
It's Islaam itself that you're against, not any "scholar". You can say what you want now to deny that, only fools would fall for it. Islaam itself is against gays, so you are against Islaam. It's as simple as that.
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
The cat is out of the bag.
It's Islaam itself that you're against, not any "scholar". You can say what you want now to deny that, only fools would fall for it. Islaam itself is against gays, so you are against Islaam. It's as simple as that.
I have never denied it. I think it's reasonably well known amongst the forum staff that I'm opposed to various Islamic teachings.
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
The cat is out of the bag.
It's Islaam itself that you're against, not any "scholar". You can say what you want now to deny that, only fools would fall for it. Islaam itself is against gays, so you are against Islaam. It's as simple as that.
Calm down dude.
I say Islam prohibits homosexuality, but that is NOT an excuse to hate on gay people. If you believe in Islam, then don't be gay. If there are people around you who are gay and/or don't believe in Islam, why does it bother you? They will burn in hell for the rest of eternity anyways, no?
EDIT: I just wish to make clear that I seriously doubt that people who are non-believers and/or who are gay will burn in hell for the rest of eternity.
Last edited by fromelsewhere; 12-27-2016 at 01:22 AM.
Calm down dude.
I say Islam prohibits homosexuality, but that is NOT an excuse to hate on gay people. If you believe in Islam, then don't be gay. If there are people around you who are gay and/or don't believe in Islam, why does it bother you? They will burn in hell for the rest of eternity anyways, no?
Who's bothered? I don't worry about what will happen to them. The thing is, Nahi `anil Munkar is the duty of every person, especially those who have studied the Deen. They must speak out against evil. I came on this thread and posted the ruling the Sahaahah gave regarding sodomites and how they were dealt with. That is what you are referring to as "hating on gay people". It is simply a matter of speaking the Haqq. I am never "bothered". We speak the Haqq (Truth). Those who like it like it and those who don't like it don't like it. Our duty is just to deliver the message.
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
More than that.
You hate Islaam just as much as Trump does. You may deny it, but you yourself believe in Bush's "Us or Them" policy.
It's entirely logical. "Us or Them". No grey areas.
For one thing, I know far more about Islam than Trump does. I've lived with Muslims, taught Muslims, and had very good Muslim friends. I've also spent eleven years on this board learning about Islam, and there are many positive things I could say about the religion.
As with so many matters, the picture is not as simple as you seem to imagine.
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
(Peace be upon you)
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
And I see plenty more evidence in this thread supporting my side of that debate. I say Islamic teachings cause people to hate homosexuals. How could it be clearer? We have an Islamic "scholar" here openly calling for the murder of gay people. Is it completely beyond the bounds of possibility that his words have caused frabgas to feel emboldened and to launch an attack on me as if I were a gay person? Can you not feel the hatred emanating from his words?
To answer you, while I feel the hatred emanating from some of words written tonight, I have two things to say about that which I've already said to him in this thread about the tongue: 1) His words are his own responsibility for which he will be judged. 2) What he as an individual says or does is not representation of Islam.
On IB, you've been long here enough to know that we're a collection of individuals within Islam. I have never, for example, denied the existence of zealots among us or indeed any communities that ascribe themselves to a religion; but what I've denied is that that that that zealotism is the valid interpretation of Islam.
I am a Muslim. I don't believe Islam teaches any person to hate any sinner but the sin. I know I don't hate homosexuals. And I doubt I ever will. However, that also does not mean that we do not inform people that homosexual acts are considered a sin and the person who exerts self-control over himself/herself enough to master desires in this vein for the sake of God will attain a higher level in Paradise than someone who didn't similarly struggle. Because this is a form of jihad (struggle) against the desires of the self. And while I may never understand someone's struggle with a specific sin, I do understand what it is like to struggle as all human beings struggle in some way or the other against themselves in one way or another.
And contrary to the two most explosive threads of tonight, most Muslims live their lives out daily just as the majority of non-Muslims would. As a rule, no Muslim strives to wonder about the sexuality or sexual lives of people as to what they are doing with whom in the bedroom as that is an invasion of someone's privacy which is naturally abhorrent to us not only as decent human beings but as Muslims who're explicitly taught in the Qur'an to avoid negative assumption and suspicion: "O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other" (Qur'an 49:12).
I came in later onto some of the threads. However, I have a question. Can you as one person be said to have views that represent the entire population of U.K.? No, right? Similarly, even brother Hufaizah's views cannot be said to represent the views of the entire Muslim population specific to the entire range of things we've discussed in different threads over time.
(Thanks to you, Search, for your characteristically eloquent defence of my right to an opinion. Your obvious goodness shines amongst the hate we've seen displayed tonight. Phew! What an evening it's been!)
I really don't need thanks for doing the right thing; I would have done it regardless. However, I do have a request to make: And that request is not only for you but also @fromelsewhere which is to not broad-brush us as a community nor Islam.
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
(Peace be upon you)
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
The cat is out of the bag.
It's Islaam itself that you're against, not any "scholar". You can say what you want now to deny that, only fools would fall for it. Islaam itself is against gays, so you are against Islaam. It's as simple as that.
Like I once told you, I have immense respect for you in terms of the striving you're doing to gain knowledge of this religion. However, again and again, over the time I've spent on IB, I have observed that you are devoid of any wisdom in your approach and quick to judgment. Neither of those things are considered desirable in Islam; when you as a scholar fail to engage in self-modulation and be wise about what words you say, laypersons like @fragbas are definitely emboldened in specific respects.
Recently, in a thread, you advised a sister who was struggling with potential lesbianism in a very well-mannered and very wise way. Therefore, I do know that you definitely have the capacity to exercise wisdom and good judgment; and therefore, I fail to understand the times that you fail to exercise both like today in both threads.
I really don't need thanks for doing the right thing; I would have done it regardless. However, I do have a request to make: And that request is not only for you but also @fromelsewhere which is to not broad-brush us as a community nor Islam.
There is no broad-brushing of the Muslim community or Islam on my part. I am pretty sure that @czgibson doesn't neither. But we (and you as well I believe) take issue with zealous views, and unfortunately, some scholars have said things that are easy for zealots to take as evidence that "this is what needs to be done."
I certainly don't believe that @Hufaizah ibn Adam's views represent the views of "the Muslim population" or even a substantial minority for that matter, but I do dispute his views very strongly because I am afraid that these kinds of zealot views might become widespread, not just in the Muslim community but in other communities as well. And all it takes is one idiot in a thousand for there to be big problems in the world. These kinds of views can be easily read by kids online who may get the wrong idea of what Islam is about or what the Muslim community stands for.
Last edited by fromelsewhere; 12-27-2016 at 01:45 AM.
Seriously guys, this topic is beating a dead horse. Sigh.
Muslims have to learn their deen, and stick to their truth regardless of the tribulations they face. So if someone who is gay is looking in here, simply put, it's not allowed and this is your trial. As muslims we have to hate homosexuality because it's hated by Allah swt, but at the same time we need to know enough about the topic in order to help those who want to be helped (as you can see from how frequent this topic comes up). So when someone comes in here and it says "kill homosexuals" there has to be a clear understanding of what this means because this is detrimental to those who are ignorant, overzealous, and with a weak faith It's incumbent that we learn our deen properly and we know what to love and hate, but also character and manners are a big deal too (without sugarcoating the truth), and that can make a world of a difference for someone who is seeking help and understanding. It should not push them away from the deen. I don't think homosexuals in general are maltreated by Muslims because simply put, it's none of our business. Our business is to make sure that we are doing what is correct, and to help create an environment or be in one that is Islamically acceptable for us to live in.
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