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    Post As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but (OP)


    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but my question is in an Islamic State a Caliphate under a Caliph could a Muslims ever be killed for drinking or if they are caught in public drinking are they just given Lashes what if they are caught several times I would think that like Prohibition in America if someone really wanted to drink and was Muslim was living in a Caliphate they would try to keep it a secret or make Alcohol in their own Homes or drink there or maybe buy from Non Muslims anyways I now drinking is haram in Islam but I have met Muslims who drink I tell them to keep it a secret Islam says to keep sins a secret anyways right I think I heard a Scholar say it is better to say the Shahada and still drink Alcohol then remain a Non Muslim if they don't want to stop is this right or wrong thank you for the time what does the Quran and Hadiths say are they still Muslims ?



    Can you become Muslim without giving up partying and alcohol? - Q&A - Dr. Bilal Philips



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    Published on Jun 23, 2012
    Let’s say you want to convert to Islam, but there are a lot of things you don’t want to give up, like partying and drinking, what do you do? Listen to Sh. Dr. Bilal Philips’s answer.







    Last edited by truthseeker63; 10-11-2016 at 04:24 PM.

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    Scimitar's Avatar
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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

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    Abu Nawas recited poetry, with allegory and metaphor, which the enemies of Islam would take out of context and apply in a very literal sense.

    Rumi also wrote poetry with wine mentioned in the verses, again allegorical and metaphorical in content - anyone can see this.

    I know how these narratives form - when -uni-lingual people read - they take everything they read "literally", and are unable to fathom this thing we know as "contextual application".

    These "uni-lingual" folk then write books claiming such and such was a notorious drunkard and evidence is presented in the form of the poetry they copy pasta into their books... hundreds of years pass and the lies in said book make it to acadaemia as articles which require further investigation and then, thesis are formed which in turn get peer reviewed and once again regurgitated.

    Over the course of the regurgitations, the claim is made that "we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " kinda thing.

    Don't fall for the hype.

    here is an example of a poem by Rumi in which he mentions the wine:

    Wine Poems from Rūmī’s Diwān1) Ghazal 81

    Oh Cupbearer!

    Fill the soul from that pre-existent cup, that thief of the heart, that ambusher of formal religion.

    Fill it with the wine that springs from the heart and mixes with the spirit, the wine whose bubbling intoxicates the God-seeing eye.

    That grape wine – it belongs to the followers of Jesus; but this Hallajian wine, it belongs to the followers of the Qurʾān.

    Vats of this wine, vats of that: until you break that vat, you will never taste this wine.

    That wine frees the heart from sorrow for an instant: never can it snuff out sorrow,never can it uproot malice.

    One drop from this cup will turn your work into gold – may my soul be sacrificed to this golden cup!

    When this state (of wine-drinking) comes, mostly it comes in the pre-dawn hours, to him who scatters his bed-roll and pillow.

    Beware lest the bad companion deceive you through whisperings – never break the covenant with kings through weakness.


    On first reading this, literallty and wihout consideration, you'd think Rumi had made halal that which was made haraam. But read it again.

    "Fill the soul from that pre-existent cup" - he then mentions it as a thief of the heart and one which ambushes formal religion - meaning, compulsion. And compulsion is a sister to impulsion - he presents a clever nuance in the idea that people drink on impulse and then become compelled to act out of character - thief of the heart, ambusher of formal religion. See?

    He then mentions something and likens it to a wine which springs from the heart (not the grape) and mixes with the human spirit - and gives your inner eye, clarity.

    He then mentions that wine from grapes are a thing for the followers of Jesus pbuh but the Hallajjan wine he speaks of belongs to the followers of Qur'an - Hallajan wine is a reference to the famous 10th century mystic, Mansur al-Hallaj who was famous for hisstates of spiritual ecstasy. No alcohol required.

    He then mentions vats of wine - alcoholic - but he advises "until you don't break the vats of alcoholic wine, you will never taste this (other non material) wine" - again, he speaks of, the hallajan ecstacy.

    His prose goes on to glorify the sweetness of belief by likening it to the ecstacy of wine but only better. In fact he goes on to use another parable, when he interates that "one drop from this wine and it will turn your work into gold" - an alchemical reference used in metaphysical context, to help enable the reader to understand what they chase in the nashaa (ecstacy of alcohol) can never be satisfied, and only the sweetness of true belief can bring one the satisfaction.

    The mention of this spiritually aware state what he refers to as "Hallajjan" and associating it with the one who "scatters bed roll and pillow" in the "pre-dawn" hours refers to the believer who is awakening for his dawn prayer rituals. And warns against the "bad companion" who "whispers" you to stay in bed and forget your salaah., he then ends with "never break the covenant with kings through weakness... meaning, you have to answer to many people in life and Allah in death, but none of these whom you ever answer to will ever be shaytaan, so why listen to him?

    Clever stuff.

    As you can see, Rumi never advocated drinking alcohol - he used the weakness of the people (alcohol) to show them the irony of what they consume and their faulty reasoning behind such addictions.

    But ask a non-Muslim, and they be like "Oh yeah, Rumi, he enjoyed a little red didn't he? hehe".

    Scimi
    Last edited by Scimitar; 10-13-2016 at 04:50 PM.
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    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but


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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Rumi is not the same as Abu Nawas. He was a religious poet.

    However Abu Nawas, Ibnu Zaydun, Al Mutanabbi, Al Hallaj... they didn't used allegory and metaphors and they were poets who loved Wine and they were drinking it all of their lives as did many Caliphs..
    I do accept them as they are, i love them and i really enter in a state of joy when i read about them..

    I invite you to read also the poetry of Arabs before Islam, you will also find other poets who were praising wine such as Omar Ibnu Kalthum, Azzir Salem, Imriou Al Kais... and the list goes on and on...

    And yes, these poets get censored before and after Islam.

    "we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " This is correct! You just need to read the biographies of poets and of some Caliphs. The Muslims are not angels, they committed crimes and they drank alcohol for ages.

    And i don't care what the west can say, they need to take a look at their bloody history before they look at ours.
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    I made an edit to my last post - re read, Ahmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    I invite you to read also the poetry of Arabs before Islam, you will also find other poets who were praising wine such as Omar Ibnu Kalthum, Azzir Salem, Imriou Al Kais... and the list goes on and on...

    And yes, these poets get censored before and after Islam.

    "we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " This is correct! You just need to read the biographies of poets and of some Caliphs. The Muslims are not angels, they committed crimes and they drank alcohol for ages.
    First of all, using pre-Islamic poetry to help you make a point about how alcohol was consumed by Arabs of that period doesn't really help you to actually "make a point". Alcohol from fermented dates in Arabia is a well known historical fact. No poetry required to prove it.

    Point of this thread though bro Ahmed, is to clarify the position of "khamr" in Islam. Not at any point before Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    And i don't care what the west can say, they need to take a look at their bloody history before they look at ours.
    Too right

    Scimi
    Last edited by Scimitar; 10-13-2016 at 04:54 PM.
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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    I still don't agree with you...

    Did you read the poetry of Abu Nawas before ?
    No!
    So why are you speaking ?

    You can ask any Arab about Abu Nawas and he will tell you that he was a big lover of wine and i add more, he was even gay... We know this because we read Arabic poetry since we are in School.

    I invite you to read his poetry and his biography (he has been censored, he was a big drinker and he was put in prison because of that)
    Al Mutanabbi pretended to be a prophet
    There is another poet who said he is Allah, i think it's Hallaj
    And the list goes on and on lol
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    To be honest, I actually hate poetry, so I don't like to read it. Either way bro, I don't think poetry which speaks of alcohol written by drunken Muslims can help you to prove that Khaliphs of Islam drank alcohol - that's my point

    Sorry bro, but you fell into that one lol (logic trap)

    Scimi
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but


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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Caliphes drinking alcohol do not prove anything. A Caliph doesnt mean an impeccable man. They commited sins. And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali. The rest were kings, some good examples like Harun Ar-Rashid, and some bad examples like Yazid?

    By the way I couldnt catch how you came to Hallaj but I am a big fan of him
    | Likes Scimitar, AhmedGassama liked this post
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Did you even read my second post ?
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Caliphes drinking alcohol do not prove anything. A Caliph doesnt mean an impeccable man. They commited sins. And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali. The rest were kings, some good examples like Harun Ar-Rashid, and some bad examples like Yazid?

    By the way I couldnt catch how you came to Hallaj but I am a big fan of him
    Yes i agree 100% with you

    But i'm a big fan of Mutanabbi He is the greatest poet with a heart of iron lol
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    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Yes Ahmed, I did. But you fail to see what the brother above you just shared.

    And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali.

    Many share that opinion...

    ...and also, we're only supposedly ruled by people who are reflective of our own collective states.

    So if you are gonna blame khaliphs, blame Muslims in general too. And know that whether Allah forgave them their transgressions through mercy or not, is something you do not know - yet you will continue to slander the dead who died as Muslims.


    Scimi

    EDIT: Ahmed, I'd have no problem with you attempting to prove Khaliph Baghdadi is a notorious drunk though go for it hehe
    Last edited by Scimitar; 10-13-2016 at 05:17 PM.
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but


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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    To be honest, I actually hate poetry, so I don't like to read it. Either way bro, I don't think poetry which speaks of alcohol written by drunken Muslims can help you to prove that Khaliphs of Islam drank alcohol - that's my point

    Sorry bro, but you fell into that one lol (logic trap)

    Scimi
    I think you falled in the trap when you said that you are not interested in reading poetry.

    You are right, if you don't read poetry you can't know that many Caliphs were poets and that they glorified wine
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    I can read up on the peopel I like in history such as Rumi and who he references in his works, such as Hallaj.

    You don't have to be interested in poetry to learn about the people of influence.

    You forget, I study comparatively, something I've yet to see you take a leap forward in, Ahmed.

    Let's not make this about you or me though, I'd rather see you try to bring this thread back on track by doing one of two things:

    1) explain the position and reasoning behind khamr being haraam in Islam
    2) attempt to prove baghdadi is a notorious drunk

    One will be educational, the other - just entertainment

    Scimi
    Last edited by Scimitar; 10-13-2016 at 05:21 PM.
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but


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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post

    So if you are gonna blame khaliphs, blame Muslims in general too. And know that whether Allah forgave them their transgressions through mercy or not, is something you do not know - yet you will continue to slander the dead who died as Muslims.


    Scimi

    EDIT: Ahmed, I'd have no problem with you attempting to prove Khaliph Baghdadi is a notorious drunk though go for it hehe
    No, i'm not blaming the Caliphs, i'm glorifying them because they were the defenders of the Ummah and you failed to see this!

    And i already proved this by the translation that i do in order for me to show the world how great those people were, take a look
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...18KL5wUNlVTTUq

    And i hope from my heart to meet them in Heaven one day because they are really my heroes and my leaders and they influenced my life so much..
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    I can read up on the peopel I like in history such as Rumi and who he references in his works, such as Hallaj.

    You don't have to be interested in poetry to learn about the people of influence.
    I agree, but poetry will help you a lot to learn more about history.
    And it helped me a lot to learn more about the attitude of the Caliphs, somthing that you didn't even know

    It's really bad to give importance to historians and to neglet poets.
    We need to give importance to both so we can see the biggest picture!

    I give you an example : The Kings can get glorified by historians but slandered by the poets
    This will help us to see the négatives and the positives.

    ---> EDIT : Poetry will help you to compare, you just said it by yourself "I study comparatively"
    This is a big lesson from me to you, to learn new Tools of comparison lol
    Last edited by AhmedGassama; 10-13-2016 at 05:32 PM.
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    No, i'm not blaming the Caliphs, i'm glorifying them because they were the defenders of the Ummah and you failed to see this!
    Clearly...

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    I read in Ibn Hazm that there is many Caliphs during the Abbasides, Andalucia... were drinking wine among them i can mention...[/snip]
    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    And i already proved this by the translation that i do in order for me to show the world how great those people were, take a look
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...18KL5wUNlVTTUq

    And i hope from my heart to meet them in Heaven one day because they are really my heroes and my leaders and they influenced my life so much..
    Well done, you!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    I don't stop here, Because Even Harun Arrashid was accused of drinking alcohol but no one knows if it's true or not. This accusation was made against him because he were always accompanied by Abu Nawas (The poet of wine). The latter was well financed by Harun Arrashid. And Allahu Aalam.
    Quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post

    Let’s remember the following statement of the Prophet:


    Abu Huraira narrated the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “It is enough to call a person a liar that he narrates everything he hears”[Sahih Muslim]

    The explanation of the hadith is that a person will hear a mixture of truth and falsehood and if they simply narrate everything without checking what is true and what is false, they will inevitably narrate the lies too.
    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    I agree, but poetry will help you a lot to learn more about history.
    And it helped me a lot to learn more about the attitude of the Caliphs, somthing that you didn't even know

    It's really bad to give importance to historians and to neglet poets.
    We need to give importance to both so we can see the biggest picture!

    I give you an example : The Kings can get glorified by historians but slandered by the poets
    This will help us to see the négatives and the positives.
    Poetry is a form of expression which is often invaluable in the preservation of, and anthropological understanding of human development - not history.

    History relies on many other ologies, poetry not being one - but only used in fleeting reference to a time period. It's hardly worth the parchment in my honest opinion. Like I said, I'm not a fan of it - but I love history, and study it comparatively with investigative methodologies - the very same I'm asking you to develop, the very same i've yet to see fruit within you.

    Meanwhile you are asking me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings? logic trap back again bro

    Scimi
    Last edited by Scimitar; 10-13-2016 at 05:47 PM.
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but


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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    Poetry is a form of expression which is often invaluable in the preservation of, and anthropological understanding of human development - not history.

    History relies on many other ologies, poetry not being one - but only used in fleeting reference to a time period. It's hardly worth the parchment in my honest opinion. Like I said, I'm not a fan of it - but I love history, and study it comparatively with investigative methodologies - the very same I'm asking you to develop, the very same i've yet to see fruit within you.

    Scimi
    And yes history can be studied through Poetry and many historians are doing it.
    Because poetry helped to describe for example wars and Kings..
    So why should we neglect it ? In knowledge Nothing should be neglected! Even a small detail!

    As for Harun Arrashid, i never said that he was drunk man, i just said what he was accused of, and this is true! And i didn't take from anyone, i just took it from respected scholars.

    If you say that Prophet Sulayman was accused to worship the devils, does that mean you are liar ? No!
    You need to understand that Hadith more...
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    And yes history can be studied through Poetry and many historians are doing it.
    Because poetry helped to describe for example wars and Kings..
    So why should we neglect it ? In knowledge Nothing should be neglected! Even a small detail!

    As for Harun Arrashid, i never said that he was drunk man, i just said what he was accused of, and this is true! And i didn't take from anyone, i just took it from respected scholars.

    If you say that Prophet Sulayman was accused to worship the devils, does that mean you are liar ? No!
    You need to understand that Hadith more...
    Ahmed, you made statements which you did not back up and left open to enquiry. Here is your first post in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    The majority of Muslim Caliphs were drinking alcohol at that time lol
    You're making HUGE mistakes in your opening post and others here in this thread. You've left red herring arguments which leave more questions than they answer, and to make things worse, you claim the "understand hadeeth properly" argument out of sheer ignorance.

    Come on young man, pull your socks up.

    I still don't understand how you expect me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings?



    Scimi
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but


  22. #37
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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    Ahmed, you made statements which you did not back up and left open to enquiry. Here is your first post in this thread:



    You're making HUGE mistakes in your opening post and others here in this thread. You've left red herring arguments which leave more questions than they answer, and to make things worse, you claim the "understand hadeeth properly" argument out of sheer ignorance.

    Come on young man, pull your socks up.

    I still don't understand how you expect me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings?



    Scimi
    I already explained myself well in my second post!

    And yes you used the Hadith to prove that i'm a liar but i'm not, real liars are those who say i'm gonna do Something then they don't!

    And why are you thinking that all poets are drunken poets ? Why putting all poets in the same bag ? And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

  23. #38
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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama View Post
    I already explained myself well in my second post!

    And yes you used the Hadith to prove that i'm a liar but i'm not, real liars are those who say i'm gonna do Something then they don't!

    And why are you thinking that all poets are drunken poets ? Why putting all poets in the same bag ? And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?
    Bro let me put it to you like this.

    In Islam, we have something called hadeeth sciences.

    Within these hadeeth sciences, is a thing called "reliability of narrators"

    If a narrator had faults such as being known to be a liar, have a bad memory, having addiction to wine etc - they became "unreliable".

    I hold fast to the yard stick by which Islamic scholarship has measured the accuracy of a mans word. You, apparently do not. You wrote this:

    And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

    And that my bro, is where you go wrong.

    Scimi
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but


  24. #39
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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    Bro let me put it to you like this.

    In Islam, we have something called hadeeth sciences.

    Within these hadeeth sciences, is a thing called "reliability of narrators"

    If a narrator had faults such as being known to be a liar, have a bad memory, having addiction to wine etc - they became "unreliable".

    I hold fast to the yard stick by which Islamic scholarship has measured the accuracy of a mans word. You, apparently do not. You wrote this:

    And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

    And that my bro, is where you go wrong.

    Scimi
    Yes maybe that's where i go wrong!

    But what about my other arguments ?
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but

    THIS NATION WILL KNOW WHO WILL DEFEND IT WITH HIS TONGUE AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR IT WITH THE GLORIOUS SWORD !!!

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  26. #40
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    Re: As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims

    Null and void,

    You're speaking from an emotional position in the post before your last. I don't entertain emotion when it comes to things like this bro.

    Scimi
    As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but



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