Sir, may we(Muslims who are resident of India) love India ?

Do not love that which is man-made (ie nationalism). In this case loving India as the country India (a big no). You can love being for example from a certain tribe, as tribes have existed and keep on existing even if a country would fall. However a country A LOT of work is spend on it to keep it existing, by igniting nationalism/love for the country. A simple example is like a garbage bin throwing all kind of stuff in it and keeping it united, while it can be called garbage what is in the garbage bin, however when it is separated it is clearly vegetable peels, plastics, paper etc...

Brother,
When our muhammad rasoolullah(saw) had to leave the makka and ,Allah ordered him to do hijra to madeena. Rasoolullah(saw) felt sad about leaving the makka. And there is a hadees on loving country "it is a part of faith"(no strong ravi list I thing.)

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Somebody being with or without knowledge does not matter, the ones that do possess the knowledge through the filter of Allah the one with less knowledge no damage is done to them and their right is given in full. The nationalism is based on corruption.

To give you an example. Poor people in the western country that i live in, have rights on MANY MANY MANY benefits to help them and support them their living. Although the country itself has every bit of information about their living condition, those people just have to call and ask about those benefits, however when one is NOT aware of those benefits, they live a hard life as poor people in a rich country. This is when the knowledgeable prey on the people without knowledge. In Islam we know that what we do not know, we go to the scholars, however if we even do not know something our rights are still given by the people who do know. So if this is what you mean by the knowledgeable and the ones without knowledge.

Or in the current perspective of nationalism, people who are not aware of nationalism rather might be bad/forbidden, the people in power are not only preventing them to know but also actively promote this filthy idea which rather divides people instead of unites people if you ask me. Because what brings us together so to say is love for a piece of land which logically comes down to..as you used the Kashmir example. However love for EVERYTHING that is tangible is BOUND to lose it's power. Whatever is NOT tangible, is not bound to the materialistic world. Islam makes this sub'han'Allah so beautiful firm that makes one just speechless. If a country might be invaded so to say and the people even might forget it belonged to their forefathers once in the history (thus belongs to them), what unites is still the untangle thing of the unseen that cannot be taken from you.

Just pick up some Muslims and put them on the North pole so to say. You will see they WILL create civilization on a desert land as North pole with rulings, houses of worship, construction of a community, law etc. Nationalism is based on large group of people to make something realistic on certain piece of LAND that they have made it theirs, while even 10 Muslims can create a united community based on things that cannot be taken away even if they would flee that piece of land.

Islam is like water, you cut off small piece of water from the big mass of water, you create a little pool. To "extinguish" that water, dirt is thrown on it, which still does not extinguish, rather it creates mud. In other words tainted ..this is exactly what you see now a days (culture-Islam, nationalism-Islam). As western powers have tried to extinguish Islam from the hearts of people by throwing mud on top (nationalism) and sheytan also throwing mud on top (culture). When more CLEAR water comes on top of it, this new water clears the mud more, but it is still tainted, although it has become much better than mud itself. When Islamic guidance itself comes to people (culture-Muslims, nationalism-Muslims) they themselves become a very small pool by themselves (strangers in society). The "guidance" of nationalism MUST be thought by people (parents, people, community etc.), Islamic guidance however is NOT thought by the people, rather given by Allah, which doesn't require any place you have to be or be with certain people. Look at Ibrahim(as), surrounded by statue worshipers, but guidance came from the unseen.

You can see the guidance VERY clearly when looking at elderly people in villages in the past who couldn't read nor write. They yet were very wise and intelligent people (guidance coming from the unseen).

I also sub'han'Allah noticed this with the Jews that immigrated to Israel. The Jews (although majority of them atheist now), said that the government of Israel was planning to unite the Jews under 1 mentality and 1 culture (Jewish culture/zionism), however many were laughing about it saying it didn't really work at all. This reminded me of this aya..SUB'HAN'ALLAH..

"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted." Qur'an 49:13

I mean sub'han'Allah they were the EXCELLENT example. Many still spoke a bit of their own original language, ate the food of their culture they came from, still practices some kind of cultural habits like clothing etc., didn't look anything a like. With Kurdish Jews i could CLEARLY see they were Kurds by ethnicity, while the European Jews i could also see they were from a western ethnicity.

Anyways, no matter how you look at things, Islam cannot be extinguish by invading or taking away land. An idea can be extinguished if the right people are killed, but how can you kill Allah when He is the one giving the idea to His servants? It is a battle that cannot be won and it is a battle that by definition (Allah - with no beginning and no end) is already decided. How many people that associated themselves with certain empire (also nationalism) still exist? Many of the countries of today are NOT older than couple hundreds of years old.

Christianity has been tainted to such a degree that it has been disarmed although small pockets still exist that still follow 1 God not trinity, Judaism the same as Zionism has rather broken Judaism and also with this very small pockets still exist that live according to Judaism. Which Islam with primary lines of guidance still is steadfast, with all their data gathering to know who is a Muslim and who isn't, the people even working for such agencies can be guided by Allah and thus work against them. With Islam however what I have observed Allah is replacing many Muslims with new Muslims.

"Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you." Qur'an 47:38

No worries if we look at it from this perspective as long as we try to keep us on the right path. Culture Muslims and nationalism Muslims either become guided or they leave Islam all together.

Sub'han'Allah walhamdulillah wala ilaha ill Allah wallahu akbar

Comprehensive post.

According to the political myths(materialistic) governments are created to create the equality and good governance for people.

Nationalism makes a unique interest about country and is all about a country governed on the way of the constitution with the loyalty created by some brains.That can be applied to the written or unwritten constitutions.

Nationalism may influence in our life directly by political,economic or by other ways. But when it comes to the citizenship ,we should own an identity,birth certificate even to perform hajj passport is essential and a place to live in the country and must pay tax for the house we live in. So those are the documents ,we cannot avoid to live in a country.

When practically apply islam in our life,nationalism tells us to take such documents to conform us as citizens and islam tells us to obey the country rules when we live in a country,majority are non muslims.

Taking documents is not a big thing but ladies we have to attach our photoes on every document. Even to perform hajj so this is the world law!!

This is also a way of following nationalism by muslims too. But same time we cannot avoid it due to other inner and outer laws of the country. So we have no rights to reject to respect the country law.

But when it comes to the nationalism on the motherland other than goverment or the parties. It should be differnt from the topic. Motherland is a place a person born and /live but the nation is another term according to the political science. I can say it as the The hindu nation. But cannot include muslims on it ,yes they do !we can see daliths in India how they are tortured. It is because they think India is a hindu nation.

So,according to the term "nation" they will not accept muslims in their nation. But the problem is, a muslim is not included in the "hindu nation" but his motherland is also India.

Here something burning

format_quote Originally Posted by Shahi

According to the political myths(materialistic) governments are created to create the equality and good governance for people.

Nationalism makes a unique interest about country and is all about a country governed on the way of the constitution with the loyalty created by some brains.That can be applied to the written or unwritten constitutions.

Nationalism may influence in our life directly by political,economic or by other ways. But when it comes to the citizenship ,we should own an identity,birth certificate even to perform hajj passport is essential and a place to live in the country and must pay tax for the house we live in. So those are the documents ,we cannot avoid to live in a country.

Identity we already have. It is according to our ethnicity as tribe so to say. A Syrian is a Arab, Kurd etc., A Iraqi is a Arab, Kurd etc, A Saudi is a Arab, A Turk is a REAL ottoman, Kurd, Tartar, etc.. Even in the west, people can look up their ancestry and know who they really are, however people have been brainwashed to be branded a person from certain country.

Let me give you a VERY clear example to this. Let's say, Syria falls, it is called "happy-land" from now on. However you let's say are already 60 years old and born in the now a days country called Syria. Well who are you? Country named Syria has stopped existing. Have you suddenly lost your identity? So you see, you are suddenly stopped at a dilemma. In the Qur'an Allah says made you in "people and tribes" which means you are born as X and you will stay like that until you die. A tribe cannot be stopped. If the tribe no longer would even exist, you are still from that tribe. This you have with those old people that were born in the Ottoman empire(before it fell after WW1) and now suddenly are "Turks" O_o!!??

Kurds for example in history you will see are a mix of all kind of people. If you further dig you will end up in ancient Mesopotamia. Kurds even 200-300 years back, were a lot of tribes but spoke the same language but different dialects(which even today one will notice). The word "Kurdistan" is nothing more than "the place were the Kurds are". So if the country Kurdistan is not acknowledged by UN as a independent state, it is still Kurdistan. It is NOT bound by certain human invented rules such as nationalism. I am anti-nationalism, but Kurdistan is Kurdistan just like i said..the place were the Kurds are.

The place that you live has certain laws and those laws as Muslims we MUST abide unless it goes against our deen(which mostly it does not). We are not forced to buy a house, we are not forced to worship statues, we are not forced to drink alcohol or be exact same copies of the people that are living there. We simply live according to Islamic standards within the scope of the law of that land. If that comes with things like MUST have a passport, so be it.

@Simple_Person yes I agree with you.
That identity mentioned here is called as "Nation ". According to your example I can tell it as "Qurdish Nationalism/Qurdish Nation" . Nation means Ummah in political language.

Here I like to start discussion on "Islamic Nationality/Islamic Nation." (This is not about the terrorists of ISIS or will not be directly or indirectly connected with ISIS of baghdadi)

Meaning of Islamic nation is; on this point the constitution is "Alquran" and the description of the constitution is "Sunnah" and the Governer is Allah. Here according to the term nationalism making loyalty and love on qhilafa is the culture according to the nationalism.

But more than the term the Islam teach us about the governance or politics. From the story of prophet yousuf(a) we learn equality and the position for the correct person should be given. But Islam is not engaging with liberalism; If you ask how? Islam teach us to give freedom for slaves and spiritually guide us on it. So it is the first step to the democracy.

When we come to the democracy, Islam introduce us about "Imarah" it is also about social responsibility. ZAKAT is the first step Islam introduce tax among muslims. So this is the Islamic governance and ,even in the Islamic governance nationalism differs. Why , thimmis are not a part of nation according to the constitution. Because,thimmis even they pay tax and live under muslim national territory are not living according to the Quran the constitution.

So ,here we see a confusion on our theory. The man made theory. But the law of Allah great to discuss here on nationalism.

format_quote Originally Posted by Shahi

@Simple_Person yes I agree with you.
That identity mentioned here is called as "Nation ". According to your example I can tell it as "Qurdish Nationalism/Qurdish Nation" . Nation means Ummah in political language.

Here I like to start discussion on "Islamic Nationality/Islamic Nation." (This is not about the terrorists of ISIS or will not be directly or indirectly connected with ISIS of baghdadi)

Meaning of Islamic nation is; on this point the constitution is "Alquran" and the description of the constitution is "Sunnah" and the Governer is Allah. Here according to the term nationalism making loyalty and love on qhilafa is the culture according to the nationalism.

But more than the term the Islam teach us about the governance or politics. From the story of prophet yousuf(a) we learn equality and the position for the correct person should be given. But Islam is not engaging with liberalism; If you ask how? Islam teach us to give freedom for slaves and spiritually guide us on it. So it is the first step to the democracy.

When we come to the democracy, Islam introduce us about "Imarah" it is also about social responsibility. ZAKAT is the first step Islam introduce tax among muslims. So this is the Islamic governance and ,even in the Islamic governance nationalism differs. Why , thimmis are not a part of nation according to the constitution. Because,thimmis even they pay tax and live under muslim national territory are not living according to the Quran the constitution.

So ,here we see a confusion on our theory. The man made theory. But the law of Allah great to discuss here on nationalism.

Sister, SOME words do NOT have a equal in other languages if you ask me.

If you search for the definition of "nation" some dictionaries say people with same common interest that live in a state or one area, while another definition says MIGHT not live in a state or one area. This for example is a GOOD example to see how poor English language is compared to for example Arabic and other much richer and older languages when talked about common things. English languages because it is fairly new it is mostly used for scientific discoveries (ie computers etc.). That is why sometimes better stick to certain Arabic as nobody would disagree with "Ummah", but also is NOT associated whatsoever with nationalism. As that is something completely different and the input for getting it going is rather also different. A Muslim can today say i have become Christian, does it mean he no longer is part of the Islamic Ummah? Well according to Islamic sources indeed he is no longer part of the Islamic Ummah, while present day definition of nation well he has to leave that particular area to no longer be part of that nation or else he will have to give up his nationality but according to UN rulings a individual MUST have a identity of a man-made country. They say one cannot be without one. The coming years we will see more and more hypocrisy and how unfair and illogical UN and their rulings are. Everything that is man-made and not even least inspired through Allah's rulings, is bound to lose/end up in chaos.

So it is much deeper and better stick to Ummah .

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format_quote Originally Posted by azc

It's natural to love your birth place

Birth place? I agree. As even within Islam if one defends his land and ends up dying defending it they are martyrs. But that doesn't mean giving it a specific name when such a name has nothing to do with it and rulings off course.

As an example, As-sham is large piece of land, if one says i am a Arab living in as-sham nobody is arguing against it as this is what was being called even back then, however when A FEW people decide to divide it and call each place a different name, that is when the oppression and man-made things come in to action. Which is exactly what has happens after the French and English divided the territory (with Sykes–Picot Agreement for example) without the consent of the people.

People are fighting now for a place that is based on CERTAIN borders that are man-made. If one would say defending as-sham is large piece of land that isn't really to every little detail clear what the borders are, while man-made borders are clear to every inch.

As this is also a good example..when rulers are being used to draw things... Yet people are so blind and never question while even just a SMALL critical mind will indeed say since when do things just be exactly like that?

format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person

Sister, SOME words do NOT have a equal in other languages if you ask me.

If you search for the definition of "nation" some dictionaries say people with same common interest that live in a state or one area, while another definition says MIGHT not live in a state or one area. This for example is a GOOD example to see how poor English language is compared to for example Arabic and other much richer and older languages when talked about common things. English languages because it is fairly new it is mostly used for scientific discoveries (ie computers etc.). That is why sometimes better stick to certain Arabic as nobody would disagree with "Ummah", but also is NOT associated whatsoever with nationalism. As that is something completely different and the input for getting it going is rather also different. A Muslim can today say i have become Christian, does it mean he no longer is part of the Islamic Ummah? Well according to Islamic sources indeed he is no longer part of the Islamic Ummah, while present day definition of nation well he has to leave that particular area to no longer be part of that nation or else he will have to give up his nationality but according to UN rulings a individual MUST have a identity of a man-made country. They say one cannot be without one. The coming years we will see more and more hypocrisy and how unfair and illogical UN and their rulings are. Everything that is man-made and not even least inspired through Allah's rulings, is bound to lose/end up in chaos.

So it is much deeper and better stick to Ummah .

- - - Updated - - -



Birth place? I agree. As even within Islam if one defends his land and ends up dying defending it they are martyrs. But that doesn't mean giving it a specific name when such a name has nothing to do with it and rulings off course.

As an example, As-sham is large piece of land, if one says i am a Arab living in as-sham nobody is arguing against it as this is what was being called even back then, however when A FEW people decide to divide it and call each place a different name, that is when the oppression and man-made things come in to action. Which is exactly what has happens after the French and English divided the territory (with Sykes–Picot Agreement for example) without the consent of the people.

People are fighting now for a place that is based on CERTAIN borders that are man-made. If one would say defending as-sham is large piece of land that isn't really to every little detail clear what the borders are, while man-made borders are clear to every inch.

As this is also a good example..when rulers are being used to draw things... Yet people are so blind and never question while even just a SMALL critical mind will indeed say since when do things just be exactly like that?

I think brother @Simple_Person forgot to mention how the "palestine" became Isreal by their alms and secret papers.Even on google map I always

format_quote Originally Posted by Shahi

I think brother @Simple_Person forgot to mention how the "palestine" became Isreal by their alms and secret papers.Even on google map I always

Also with Palestine, it is as-sham. There is NO Palestine as well as NO Israel. If it was up to me i would not even want to use those names, however for the sake of miscommunication i use them, but also often say the original names of the places.

I know the story as the promise was not met with the Arabs for their help against the Ottomans. Stab in the back as the Zionists back then deceived the Arabs through the British.

Martyrdom is a rank promised by Allah. No politician or country promise to give us a paradise for our life. And even if we fight and leave this world they will write our name on a medal but we will stay in qabr.
But we fight for the sake of Allah ;Allah will take our life to the sky and will keep us with shuhadas.
Allah mention about them that ,Roohs flying as birds upon the tree to have their meal.
So,Can you imagine the level of a shuhadha? They will not stay bardhaqh and will live in paradise till the day of judjment and after that also jannath