Interesting press release. Should be cause for conversation.
PRESS RELEASE/FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Secularists of Islamic Societies Gather for Unprecedented Summit
Leading Dissidents to Launch Movement for Reason, Pluralism, and Freedom of Conscience
New York, N.Y.(January 26, 2007)— From Pope Benedict XVI to the Harvard historian Bernard Lewis, people are asking, What went wrong? How did Middle Eastern cultures transform from the openness and intellectual ferment of the medieval period to the closed theocrat societies of today? Where are the secular voices of the Muslim world? Until now, they have been largely stifled and silenced. Now, bold critics of orthodoxy are calling for sweeping reforms from inside Muslim societies. With the intent of catalyzing a global movement for reason, humanist values, and freedom of conscience, delegates from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Bangladesh will assemble March 4-5 in St. Petersburg, Florida for an unprecedented Secular Islam Summit.
According the chair of the meeting, the rationalist critic of Islam and acclaimed author Ibn Warraq, “What we need now is an Age of Enlightenment in the Islamic world, of the Islamic mind-set or worldview. Without critical examination of Islam, it will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. It will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth.”
Said one summit delegate, Irshad Manji, author of The Trouble with Islam Today, “This summit is proof positive that reform-minded Muslims are creating a movement. We no longer exist in isolation. Those who hate our message of free thought in Islam will keep trying to pick us off individually, but collectively we're not going anywhere except forward.”
The historic Summit, to be held at the Hilton St. Petersburg, will set in motion the generation of new practical strategies from the world’s leading thinkers and activists in an ongoing cross-cultural forum. At issue will be secularist interpretations of Islam, the importance of expanding Koranic criticism, the state of freedom of expression in Muslim societies, educational reform and the urgent need for a paradigm shift in Islamic philosophy. Speakers include Mona Abousenna, Magdi Allam, Shaker al-Nabulsi, Nonie Darwish, Afshin Ellian, Fatemolla, Tawfik Hamid, Shahriar Kabir, Nibras Kazimi, Irshad Manji, Walid Phares, Amir Taheri, Mourad Wahba, Ibn Warraq, and others.
To promote emerging solutions, the delegates will craft a statement of values and principles expressing the call for a new Enlightenment in Islamic culture. The statement will be released in English, Arabic, Farsi and Bengali to the world media at a press conference at 2 p.m. Monday, March 5, 2007 at the Summit, after which participants will take questions.
“The Secular Islam Summit hopes to encourage a new global movement for reason, science, and secular values within Islamic societies,” said Summit organizer Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi, an Iranian-American activist.
The Summit is sponsored by the Center for Inquiry-Transnational, a secularist think tank.
What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against Islam. This should make for a *very* interesting summit laying:
What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against Islam. This should make for a *very* interesting summit laying:
Yes, much better thanks.
What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge not against Islam, but against hatred, intolerance, and violence. Please point out where each of them says that they are against islam.
The problem that I see, is that some muslims accuse nonmuslims of associating violence and intolerance with islam. But it is these same people that are actually doing it themselves. When someone speaks out against violent people hijacking islam to commit their crimes, the accusers say they are attacking islam. They associate an attack on violence and intolerance, as an attack on islam. Who is it that makes assumptions about islam?
You could've made those two posts as one but oh well...
Continuing with our little "flip the words around" game:
What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against hatred, intolerance, and violence which they associate with Islam through their lack of knowledge and understanding as well as childhood experiences for some.
The fact that 3 out of 4 of those people are self-proclaimed apostates that are trying to change Islam into what they think it should be is quite disturbing to me. They wouldn't have become apostates if they had their own ideas about what Islam should be and wanted to live by them. They could've practiced what they believed and stayed Muslims. Instead they became apostates because they reject Islam as a religion. How does that make them qualified for discussing the future of Islam and reform within it?
I don't see what you dont understand. If you claim to be a Muslim and then say Islam needs changing and there is something wrong with the Qur'an, or something about Islam should be rejected. <---That is apostacy, whether or not they claim so. As far as I know, the way Manji talks, she seems like a hypocrite to me. Dont think people like that dont exist, cuz they do.
But Allah Knows Best.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Back to the topic.
It astounds me that someone like yourself that claims to be from the religion of islam, would be so abrupt and critical in dealings with others( I don't mean me - I give and take what I deserve), and so judgemental.
Being critical and using your faculty to Judge what people are calling from or what they are calling too is part of any sane muslim.
It is stupid to go to a christian preist to learn about Islam
Secularism is a big no! no! to put it in obvious term and and I am sure muslims have expressed that quite clearly..
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
It is true ignorance of the religion you defend.
Are you suggesting people here are ignorant? Or that I am trying to defend ignorance?
Ignorance cannot be defended mate. It has to be eradicated via acquiring knowledge from true Scholars of Islam.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
These things are exactly what I spoke of earlier when I said islam was not like this in the past. It is common among muslims today. Some get what islam is, many do not.
I presume you do?
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Among some of the most beautiful, kind-spirited people I have met, have been muslims. These muslims gave me the impression that this was the behaviour of true muslims, not the confrontational muslims that I had been observing elsewhere.
Same here.
So I decided to see if I could find some truth. And I have. You are wrong. This confrontational, paranoid, and judgemental way does not represent true islam. The good muslims I have met, they do. The good muslims I have known, are not close-minded, they are open to all discussion, and do it peacefully. They would attend this seminar without hesitation. They might not agree with anything said, but they are not bound by ignorance and fear of what might be said. They are free.
The confrontational, paranoid, and Judgmental are those few who have been mentioned in the secular summit.
Not really, those secular's have alway's an oppurtunity to come to back to Islam. They have the opportunity sit down and be open minded & non-Judgmental & be given a chance to return to Islam, especially if the apostated by their own admission. I leave that to the scholars.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
They are secure enough in their knowledge that they do not need to criticize everyone else that might think differently. They are not judgemental, and do not bully others with their judgemental comments.
Well the thing is those secular are well enough in critising other's.
It is correct for muslim to criticise what others are calling for or even suggesting a possibility of it in the near furture, especially what they call for is contrary to Islam.
I don't understand where you get the idea that anyone is bullying anyone.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Fear and ignorance of your religion are holding you back.
Now that is being silly.
Last edited by Skillganon; 02-17-2007 at 11:10 PM.
You could've made those two posts as one but oh well...
Continuing with our little "flip the words around" game:
What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against hatred, intolerance, and violence which they associate with Islam through their lack of knowledge and understanding as well as childhood experiences for some.
The fact that 3 out of 4 of those people are self-proclaimed apostates that are trying to change Islam into what they think it should be is quite disturbing to me. They wouldn't have become apostates if they had their own ideas about what Islam should be and wanted to live by them. They could've practiced what they believed and stayed Muslims. Instead they became apostates because they reject Islam as a religion. How does that make them qualified for discussing the future of Islam and reform within it?
Not all of them reject islam. Only the ideas of some muslims.
I don't see what you dont understand. If you claim to be a Muslim and then say Islam needs changing and there is something wrong with the Qur'an, or something about Islam should be rejected. <---That is apostacy, whether or not they claim so. As far as I know, the way Manji talks, she seems like a hypocrite to me. Dont think people like that dont exist, cuz they do.
But Allah Knows Best.
I actually don't see what you don't understand about what I am saying. The veiw of many people that will attend this summit is that there is nothing wrong with islam or the Quran. What is wrong is the way that many muslims interpret and follow islam. What they want to change is this incorrect following.
Dont think people like that dont exist, cuz they do.
I agree, and they usually call others apostates while behaving contradictory to islam themselves.
Being critical and using your faculty to Judge what people are calling from or what they are calling too is part of any sane muslim.
It is not your duty or even your right to pass judgement on others. That presumably, is God's task.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
Are you suggesting people here are ignorant?
Some are, yes. Some (Woodrow, Steve are good examples) are not.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
Or that I am trying to defend ignorance?
Yes.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
I presume you do?
Yes, actually. The original, unblemished ideas are obvious if a person takes the time to learn with an open mind. It is not for me, but I appreciate some of the message. I don't particularly have a liking for what many muslims today think it is about.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
The confrontational, paranoid, and Judgmental are those few who have been mentioned in the secular summit.
Perhaps they have become the other end of the spectrum, but there are many people that will attend. The real confrontational, paranoid, and judgmental people that I mentioned are those that discourage others with intolerant remarks, this is hardly allowing others the opportunity to explore their religion. It is controlling through harassment and intimidation.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
especially what they call for is contrary to Islam.
Actually, what many call for is not contrary to islam. What they call for is that people stop behaving in a way that is contrary to islam. To return to what it was pre-12th century.
If your Muslim, why in the world would u say "Islam" needs to be changed?
Would a sane Christian, Jews, Bhuddist, Hindu, Sikh ever accept such an idea like that? Why is it a big deal if we say so? Allah(swt) has already told us He will preserve his religion, so why would a sane Muslim say it needs reform. Islam doesnt need change, Islam doesnt need reform. We ourselves need change and reform. This is what we r saying, but it doesnt seem like u understand. What does Secular Islam mean to you other than the laws and principles need change? And that its run by non Muslims or those who claim they r no longer Muslim?
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
If your Muslim, why in the world would u say "Islam" needs to be changed?
Are you purposely missing the point? I have repeatedly said that the view of many is that it is not islam that needs changing. It is many muslims that need changing.
Hmm, I probably am. Not purposely of course. Aren't we talking about people such as Manji and this specific summit? Like I said, how else am i supposed to take the words, secular Islam?
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
It is not your duty or even your right to pass judgement on others. That presumably, is God's task.
Just simply making a statement that it is not your duty or rigth to pass Judgement is incorrect, otherwise we will not have Judges. Making Judgement is integral part of human.
I think you missed this part also.
It is stupid to go to a christian preist to learn about Islam
Secularism is a big no! no! to put it in obvious term and and I am sure muslims have expressed that quite clearly..
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Some are, yes. Some (Woodrow, Steve are good examples) are not.
You can ask them directly how knowledgable about Islam bro Woodrow & Steve are. They themself are student in Islam.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Yes.
I think you missed this part. Ignorance cannot be defended mate. It has to be eradicated via acquiring knowledge from true Scholars of Islam.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Yes, actually. The original, unblemished ideas are obvious if a person takes the time to learn with an open mind. It is not for me, but I appreciate some of the message. I don't particularly have a liking for what many muslims today think it is about.
I really do not think you have acquired the knowledge or understanding to propose such a notion, i.e. acquiring The original, unblemished ideas.
Actually, you have the opportunity to discuss your original unblemish Idias in this forum.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Perhaps they have become the other end of the spectrum, but there are many people that will attend. The real confrontational, paranoid, and judgmental people that I mentioned are those that discourage others with intolerant remarks, this is hardly allowing others the opportunity to explore their religion. It is controlling through harassment and intimidation.
Some of them are so out of Islam by their own admission and Ideas stipulated out of Ignorance.
They have the oppurtunity to sit down with a reputable scholar and ask question. The door is open.
You can't have a meeting about allowing the permissablility to drink alcohol, and invite people to it. Obviously it is forbidden in Islam clearly.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Actually, what many call for is not contrary to islam. What they call for is that people stop behaving in a way that is contrary to islam. To return to what it was pre-12th century.
Hello, the secularist are proposing all the notion that is post 12 century.
Muslims are suppose to practice Islam as the earlier generation practiced it (back to the salaf) and how they understood it. You can't get any pre-12th century than that. I agree with the statement you just made (except the part that what they are calling too), and that is what we have been telling you all this time. I agree their are people who behave un-accordance to islam, and these people, including those proclaimed secularist muslims, need to be reformed and changed back to the roots of Islam.
Last edited by Skillganon; 02-18-2007 at 01:02 AM.
Are you purposely missing the point? I have repeatedly said that the view of many is that it is not islam that needs changing. It is many muslims that need changing.
No doubt many Muslims need change. But they need to change in such a way that they return to Islam, not from one deviation to another.
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