Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

[جوري]

My God was with them. Did you read the text? "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit..."

Plus, I don't find any confusion at all. Same rules today as there have always been: Jews don't eat pork as a part of their entry into the Sinai covenant; Gentiles are to keep the Noahide laws which don't include a prohibition on eating pork.

how did they know he was your God, when he was a 'spirit'? Did they have a mass delusion?

Ok so let me get the straight, because you are a gentile God has less expectations from you- he exempts you from what he expects of everyone else?

 

[Grace Seeker]

You interpret Helper (John 14:16, 26, 16:7) and Spirit of truth (14:17, 16:13) as being the Holy Spirit portion of the Trinity; whereas, we interpret it as Prophet Muhammad (saaws).

Regarding John 16:13 "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears", quote for me a single word in the NT that the Holy Spirit ever spoke to anyone that he first heard from another.

If the Holy Spirit is God, then why would He not speak of His own initiative, but rather what He heard? We know that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) spoke "whatever he hears" as revelation from roh al-qudus or the Holy (al-qudus) Spirit (roh) or the Angel Jibra'el.

In the same way that Jesus said that the words he spoke were given to him by the Father, so too every word that the Holy Spirit speaks is generated by the Father and proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

 

[Grace Seeker]

how did they know he was your God, when he was a 'spirit'?

Jesus said that he was sending him. As they experienced the Spirit's presence earlier at Pentecost, they realized it was the fulfilling of what the Prophet Joel had spoken and Jesus had promised.

Did they have a mass delusion?

No

Ok so let me get the straight, because you are a gentile God has less expectations from you- he exempts you from what he expects of everyone else?

No, he doesn't have those expectations of you either. It is only the Jews who are tied to the Sinai covenant.

 

[MustafaMc]

Regarding John 16:13 "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears", quote for me a single word in the NT that the Holy Spirit ever spoke to anyone that he first heard from another.

Actually, I just found one, Acts 13:2" ...the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." However, the Holy Spirit is speaking of His own accord not what he heard.

Note that Acts 13 marks a clear transition from Peter, Stephen, and Phillip to Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark until Acts 16-28 which was exclusively about Paul.

 

[جوري]

Jesus said that he was sending him. As they experienced the Spirit's presence earlier at Pentecost, they realized it was the fulfilling of what the Prophet Joel had spoken and Jesus had promised.

What was their clue that it was him? the fact that he abrogated a law where they can practice a form of enjoyed gluttony.. you think God would send himself all the way to a meeting amongst deluded men merely to allow them to eat filth.. it isn't say a matter where he was wishy washy on. it is a known forbidden, all of a sudden he comes down and decides.. sorry mates, I have broken a few commandments what is a few more -- pls go find a wild boar stuff him with apples and eat?

No

so what is a rational explanation for the event?

No, he doesn't have those expectations of you either. It is only the Jews who are tied to the Sinai covenant.

Actually you can't speak to me of what God expects or doesn't expect from Muslims.. This is detailed in verses 2:173, 5:3, 6:145, and 16:115 of the Qur'an. An exemplary verse is quoted here: "He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
so just for Christians he seemed to make an allowance, given how much he knows they love their lard, pickled pork feet, ham, and bacon... :hmm: interesting indeed.

cheers

 

[Grace Seeker]

Actually, I just found one, Acts 13:2" ...the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." However, the Holy Spirit is speaking of His own accord not what he heard.

Why do you say that the Holy Spirit is speaking of his own accord?

 

[MustafaMc]

so just for Christians he seemed to make an allowance, given how much he knows they love their lard, pickled pork feet, ham, and bacon... :hmm: interesting indeed.

cheers

How could you forget the fried pork rinds and the southern USA delicacy known as chitterlings?

Wikipedia:
Chittlins are the intestines and rectum of a pig that have been prepared as food.

Sounds yummy, huh?

 

[Grace Seeker]

What was their clue that it was him?

They knew him because he lives with them.

you think God would send himself all the way to a meeting amongst deluded men merely to allow them to eat filth

What is or isn't filth is determined by God. Thus if God says that something is clean it is clean. He even gave Peter a vision to this very effect:

Acts 10

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

.. it isn't say a matter where he was wishy washy on. it is a known forbidden, all of a sudden he comes down and decides.. sorry mates, I have broken a few commandments what is a few more -- pls go find a wild boar stuff him with apples and eat?

But to whom did God give this commandment? You yourself have said that the prophets such as Moses were sent only to the Jews. So, those commandments were not for non-Jews. I also don't try to figure out a reason for everything that God says and does. God says no sex outside of marriage. I don't have to understand the reason for that, I just obey it.


The rational explanation is that the Holy Spirit is quite capable of speaking to whoever God so desires to speak to, and that God not human beings determine what God's will is.

Actually you can't speak to me of what God expects or doesn't expect from Muslims.. This is detailed in verses 2:173, 5:3, 6:145, and 16:115 of the Qur'an. An exemplary verse is quoted here: "He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

I'm not trying to tell anyone what Allah expects of Muslims. I'm just answering from the perspective of this particular Christian the questions you have asked me of what God has asked of humanity.

so just for Christians he seemed to make an allowance, given how much he knows they love their lard, pickled pork feet, ham, and bacon... :hmm: interesting indeed.

cheers

Again, no. I do not think that God made this as an exception just for Christians. This is no different than what God has always expected of non-Jews from the time of the covenant he made with the Jews through Moses at Sinai. Now, you may assert that God has now changed this and asked it of others besides Jews, but that would then not be Christians saying that God changed his mind, but Islam saying that God changed his mind.

 

[Grace Seeker]

How could you forget the fried pork rinds and the southern USA delicacy known as chitterlings?

Wikipedia:
Chittlins are the intestines and rectum of a pig that have been prepared as food.

Sounds yummy, huh?

Not to me. It's one thing to say that they may be allowed. Another thing to say that anyone should be so foolish as to eat them. Same goes for liver, onions, and sauerkraut in my book too.

 

[جوري]

How could you forget the fried pork rinds and the southern USA delicacy known as chitterlings?

Wikipedia:
Chittlins are the intestines and rectum of a pig that have been prepared as food.

Sounds yummy, huh?

;D ah man.. well hey if God came down in spirit to make such an allowance to some authoritative sounding men, how can we compete with that with regular ole logic?..
Leave your reason at the door when interpreting Christianity :hmm:

I think for some and after all this nonsense it comes down to -- 'I don't like change, and I do this for a living'

 

[MustafaMc]

Why do you say that the Holy Spirit is speaking of his own accord?

The verse that I quoted was clearly written in first person. Note a distinction with the Qur'an with 308 verses containing Arabic "Qul" interpreted as "Say" which is not spoken in first person rather what the person speaking (Muhammad) heard from another telling him what to say.

For example:

Qur'an 112:1-4 Say: He is Allah the One and Only; Allah is the Self-Sufficient (independent of all, while all are dependent on Him); He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none comparable to Him.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Right, the Holy Spirit is speaking in the first person. The Holy Spirit is asking the disciples to set apart some of their number for his specific purposes. This doesn't mean that the Father isn't the one who generated the instruction which was spoken by the Holy Spirit. Remember from a Christian perspective whether it is the Holy Spirit, Jesus, or the Father we are talking about the very same being. So, what the Holy Spirit says here is a request from God, and all things in God are generated in the bosom of the Father, even if the action might be carried out by either the Son or the Spirit.

 

[MustafaMc]

Right, the Holy Spirit is speaking in the first person.

There is no indication that he is speaking what he heard

So, what the Holy Spirit says here is a request from God, and all things in God are generated in the bosom of the Father, even if the action might be carried out by either the Son or the Spirit.

...but "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears" means that the one speaking is distinct and separate from the One that he is hearing from else he would not need to hear it because he would know it already and speak of his own accord.

 

[Keltoi]

There is no indication that he is speaking what he heard...but "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears" means that the one speaking is distinct and separate from the One that he is hearing from else he would not need to hear it because he would know it already and speak of his own accord.

It must be understood what the role of the Holy Spirit is. It is an indwelling of Spirit. That indwelling of Spirit guides people into righteousness. Therefore, if someone speaks truth and righteousness, that truth and righteousness is of the Holy Spirit. If someone is speaking falsehoods or evil, it is not of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only reflects the Word of God. Any deviation from the Word of God cannot then be of the Holy Spirit.

 

[doorster]

I like liver fried with onions, not in to cabbages much so I'm with you on sauerkraut its definitely off my menu

oh and I cant, for the life of me, think of a reason to try finding validation for my Faith from Hindu, Buddhist or Christian books

 

[Grace Seeker]

^^Exactly. (What Keltoi said.)

I guess I just don't see the problem. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit does not speak on his own; that he speaks only what he hears. So, I accept that this is true. That doesn't mean that I have to hear some other voice speaking to the Holy Spirit for it to be true. But it does mean that, whatever it is that we hear coming from hin, the Holy Spirit is not the independent originator of the things that he says. As I said already, it means that anything we hear coming from the Holy Spirit we know is coming from God the Father. We have Jesus' word on that.

Jesus spoke similarly of what he himself said, "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it." (John 12:49) That doesn't mean that if you followed Jesus around you would actually hear God the Father speak to Jesus before Jesus spoke. Just that he doesn't claim his words to be his own original thoughts, but rather to have originated in the Father.

I know you are cognizant of the idea that God can and does speak to individuals in the midst of prayer, even silent prayer. If that is so with human beings, I don't see how it is that you can say that there is "no indication that he is speaking what he heard". That Holy Spirit is speaking is itself the indication that he is speaking to us that which is being generated by the Father and making it known to us, for otherwise he would not have anything to say.

 

[جوري]

I guess I just don't see the problem. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit does not speak on his own; that he speaks only what he hears.

ahahahahhaa. This is the biggest farce-- forgive me, can you keep a straight face with half of the stuff you write?.. but why is God so confused? who is the holy spirit 'God' hearing from? and how can you classify all this nonsense under monotheism?

 

[fromgenesis]

I'm just a newbie stating the blatently obvious :beard:

I am sure if it catches their attention then someone knowledgeable will respond...

Peace

Hi Hamayun. Being a newbie on the forum has little to do with your spiritual life, I am sure.

The blatantly obvious has not been explained as, according to your statements, Holy Spirit=Gabriel, Comforter = Muhammad, BUT Comforter= Holy Spirit THUS Muhammad= Gabriel.

It will also be difficult to be filled with Gabriel:
Eph 5:18 And stop getting drunk with wine, in which is reckless behavior, _but_ continue being filled with [the] Spirit,

It is also difficult to understand how Muhammad is with us forever - we know he died.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Further to this, Muhammad died and could thus not be with us for ever.
And even further, the apostles were addressed - and they were to receive the Comforter. Muhammad was born close to 600 years after Christ.

Now it is logical to still hold to your argument? I would really doubt it.

:sunny:

 

[جوري]

They knew him because he lives with them.

How so?

What is or isn't filth is determined by God. Thus if God says that something is clean it is clean. He even gave Peter a vision to this very effect:

Indeed, except, he has already prohibited it-- who had or didn't have a vision is inconsequential.. men shouldn't disobey divine commands by vision, considering a little drunkenness will give any man a vision!

But to whom did God give this commandment? You yourself have said that the prophets such as Moses were sent only to the Jews. So, those commandments were not for non-Jews. I also don't try to figure out a reason for everything that God says and does. God says no sex outside of marriage. I don't have to understand the reason for that, I just obey it.

God's commandments are given to his righteous servants, I have no quarrels with you claiming that they are not applicable for non-jews, but why hang on to the Judeo/christian bull when they don't recognize you and you are not willing to abide by the commandments in their book? seems like Christianity is monolithic in that regard..well actually among other things!

The rational explanation is that the Holy Spirit is quite capable of speaking to whoever God so desires to speak to, and that God not human beings determine what God's will is.

who is the holy spirit? how does he relate to our God Jesus and God the father, and how do you reconcile all three under monotheism? they seem to have very different personalities. One God who is meek, the other God is mute and the last God doesn't care about what the other two do, so he forsakes one, relegates rather odd jobs to the other!

I'm not trying to tell anyone what Allah expects of Muslims. I'm just answering from the perspective of this particular Christian the questions you have asked me of what God has asked of humanity.

God couldn't possibly put this sort of burden on humanity and expect them to abide. He seems distant, upstage, and confused at best!

Again, no. I do not think that God made this as an exception just for Christians. This is no different than what God has always expected of non-Jews from the time of the covenant he made with the Jews through Moses at Sinai. Now, you may assert that God has now changed this and asked it of others besides Jews, but that would then not be Christians saying that God changed his mind, but Islam saying that God changed his mind.

A Jew is man itaba3 alhouda.. it means those who follow guidance, I don't know what you feign of what a Jew is. When God passes a law it is eternal, it isn't a joke.. Christianity has made a joke of God, and that is really condemnable!

cheers

 

[fromgenesis]

You interpret Helper (John 14:16, 26, 16:7) and Spirit of truth (14:17, 16:13) as being the Holy Spirit portion of the Trinity; whereas, we interpret it as Prophet Muhammad (saaws).

Regarding John 16:13 "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears", quote for me a single word in the NT that the Holy Spirit ever spoke to anyone that he first heard from another.

If the Holy Spirit is God, then why would He not speak of His own initiative, but rather what He heard? We know that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) spoke "whatever he hears" as revelation from roh al-qudus or the Holy (al-qudus) Spirit (roh) or the Angel Jibra'el.

Hi MustafaMc

In my previous posts I only tried to indicate that if seen in context of the Bible, your interpretation seems to be flawed in respect of Muhammad being the Comforter /Holy spirit (I am slightly confused as it was previously stated that the Holy spirit = Gabriel.)

There are sufficient Scripture references to come to the conclusion that your interpretation is incorrect. The following will help:
Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost (Muhammad?) returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (Muhammad) to them that ask him?
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost (Muhammad?).
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost (Muhammad?), and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth(Muhammad taught them?), but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.(Muhammad sais Jesus is God?)

Trust this will help somewhat.:sunny: