Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.
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Perhaps I should clarify my statement. It doesn't matter how you come to Christ, so long as you come. Some people get to the ends of themselves, living their lives in an abundance of sin, and that brings them to the Lord, where they can find freedom and deliverance from sin. Others don't nearly get to that point, and accept him at a young age. Me personally, I too was bound with a number of adverse lifestyles (sexual perversion being one) and mindsets, despite growing up in a Christian enviornment (my father was called to be a pastor). But the Lord chose to save me how he chose to save me.
جوري
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first it was prophecies influencing people in general, then it was your story, then it doesn't matter how to come to. OK!
Taking a man for a God is in and of itself a sin according to the universal concept of monotheism without alluding to any particular doctrine therein!
All the best on your chosen faith!
cheers
Belief in differing religious viewpoints is all down to one’s faith - chosen or otherwise.
But faith could be something force fed to child for its first seven years of life or it could be something you accept due to your living in a closed community with no proper education facilities allowed/available or it could be just something one decides to follow or believe in one sunny morning, just like Bill O’Reilly on Fox News said it was faith that allowed him to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. No scientific data required.
But having great faith does not put oneself in a superior intellectual zone to anybody else.
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indeed, some beliefs however are more believable than others, for instance, I can believe that someone who is suffering a headache is indeed suffering a headache because it is the collective human condition and we can all relate to pain, though we have no way to measure it. No pain-0-meter --it is all subjective, over say someone stating they are of lucid mind and body yet seeing a flying pumpkins who are also lions and Greek at 12 am and expecting that everyone else should jump on the same band wagon!
according to piaget amongst other things, children learn by imitation of adults. So if their parents are alcoholics, or fanatics or atheists, they will model that behavior not simply out of eagerness to please, but because it is their introduction to the world. So you can't really safeguard any children against anything, unless you wish to have them all collectively transferred to some android colony where they will have no nurture or contact with humans but subjected to one man's conception of proper upbringing. Frankly I think it is best to cultivate their talents and instill some morality while one can. Which ever way it is sliced, they will be influenced by something or another, better religion than debauchery!
It depends on what other accolades the faith holder has, and how logical their testimony!
and that goes both way by the way, for instance and forgive me (I assume you of no faith) since you speak of is to unfavorably, yet, in my eyes you have lost all credibility, a direct result of a very emotional thread you've shared that doesn't have an ounce of intellectual thought and meant to appeal to demagoguery!
cheers
I said that I have heard of many people who set out to prove the Bible wrong and when given the challenge they begin to research Biblical prophecy and choose to accept Christ based on what they find. So for them that's what it took for them to come to know Christ. I didn't say people in general for that example, I was referring to the hardcore skeptic. But that doesn't mean that everyone's journey is the same, nor should it be.
Others, as I said, come to the ends of themselves, after having been exposed to the harsh realities of this fallen world we live in, and God the Father through the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and they accept Christ and receive a new start. They become--like the previous example and all other Christians--born again, born from above and of the incorruptible spirit of God. So maybe the first example is a category of hardcore atheists and this one is an example of those who have seen all that a life of sin has to offer.
And others still perhaps grew up with blood washed, fire baptized parents, saw with their own eyes the difference between their parents lifestyles and those of other adults living in the world (even at that young age) and came to know Jesus before they became ensnared in the ways of the world.
My example nor any other was/is not meant to be the prototypical way a person comes to know Christ.
Just like the prayer of salvation is not set and differs from person to person, every Christian has their own story for how they came to know the saving power and grace of God almighty.
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forgive me but how does this concern me? I have already congratulated you on your chosen path, but it doesn't have any impact on me nor is it an answer to the topic presented. Which is to say we pray to the same God.. we clearly don't. Christians worship a man named Jesus, have given him a mother and two alter egos. Muslims worship the one who created Jesus/Mary and the archangel (Gabriel) and the rest of the universe!
It is that simple!
cheers
Yes, it is amazingly simple for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Christians worship the human Jesus (peace upon him) son of Mary as God, but Muslims don't worship Jesus as God. Rather we worship Allah Who said, "Be" and Jesus was miraculously created in Mary's womb. The likeness of Jesus in Islam is the same as Adam who had no father or mother, but rather was created by Allah from clay.
In Christianity, the likeness of Jesus is the same as Mechizedek. Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most High God ... 3 Without father, without mother, without geneology, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. Actually Jesus had a mother (Mary), a geneology (Luke 23), a beginning of days (in Bethlehem) and an end to his life (supposedly on Calvary). Therefore Mechizedek has more right to be worshiped than Jesus, because the description given to him in Hebrews 7:3 is that of God Himself!
Grace Seeker
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That is an interesting interpretation of that passage, one I have never encountered before. My understanding is significantly different. I note that the terms "without father" and "without mother" are used in the Greek, from which our present letter to the Hebrews is translated, to refer to persons on unknown parentage, for illegitimate children, for people who come from unimportant families, and sometimes for dieties who were suppose tot ake their origin from one sex only. Now, some scholars do hold that Mexhizedek is views in this last mentioned way and is therefore being pictured as an angelic being. But it seem to me much more likely that the author is proceeding along the lines that the silences of Scripture (refering now to the account of Melchizedek in Genesis) are just as much due to inspiration as are its statements. Thus as nothing is recorded about the parentage of Melchizedek in Genesis or elsewhere (for he is mentioned once in the Pslams also, the passage which the author of Hebrews quotes), it is not necessarily to be assumed that he had no parents but simply that the absence of the record is significant, and probably indicates that his parentage is not.
I would also note that Melchizedek is "made like the Son of God" while Jesus is set forth to in fact be the Son of God. The two do share some things in common, but Jesus is still being lifted up by the author of Hebrews in a way that is superior to Melchizedek.
""
It depends on what other accolades the faith holder has, and how logical their testimony!
and that goes both way by the way, for instance and forgive me (I assume you of no faith) since you speak of is to unfavorably, yet, in my eyes you have lost all credibility, a direct result of a very emotional thread you've shared that doesn't have an ounce of intellectual thought and meant to appeal to demagoguery!""
I think you are right again as I cannot understand what is meant in the above passage , other than it seems to contain some negative connotations..
It depends on what other accolades the faith holder has, and how logical their testimony!
and that goes both way by the way, for instance and forgive me (I assume you of no faith) since you speak of is to unfavorably, yet, in my eyes you have lost all credibility, a direct result of a very emotional thread you've shared that doesn't have an ounce of intellectual thought and meant to appeal to demagoguery!""
I think you are right again as I cannot understand what is meant in the above passage , other than it seems to contain some negative connotations..
What I meant to say that Christians, regardless of denominations, tend to all believe in Extra Ecclesiam Nulus Salus while Muslims tend to believe that trinitarian Christians are going to hell (according to my good friend Ahmed from Malaysia).
Hence, theological debates are pointless. Since one side points to the Scriputres the other to the Koran.
Dominus vobiscum
------------------------------
Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus. Nunc, et in hora mortis. Amen.
Hence, theological debates are pointless. Since one side points to the Scriputres the other to the Koran.
Dominus vobiscum
------------------------------
Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus. Nunc, et in hora mortis. Amen.
Thank you, could not agree with you more!
oh and sorry for the assumption which I made and shared with Eric
Peace!
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Jesus was made a priest in the likeness of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:15-17 And this is clearer still, if another priest according to likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of him (Jesus), "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." ... 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because he continues forever, holds his priesthood permanently. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
So the "word of the oath" appointed Jesus as Son.:?
Hebrews 7:15-17 And this is clearer still, if another priest according to likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of him (Jesus), "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." ... 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because he continues forever, holds his priesthood permanently. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
So the "word of the oath" appointed Jesus as Son.:?
Trumble
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No, appoints the Son (Jesus) as high priest.
Yes, that is what is understood or implied, but it is not what the scripture states, per se.
or
Perhaps you are right - appoints a Son as priest.
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Grace Seeker
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I got out my Greek Bible to see if it could help, but it actually made it muddier for me. The grammar is really strange and beyond my ability to translate.
One exigetical commentator that I trust says this:
I read that, and still get precious little help. I think that Trumble probably has as good of a read on it as I can give anyone.
One exigetical commentator that I trust says this:
I read that, and still get precious little help. I think that Trumble probably has as good of a read on it as I can give anyone.
Last evening I was traveling by car and I came upon a radio show Turning Point by Dr. David Jeremiah. This hate-filled broadcast can be found in full at http://davidjeremiah.org/ and then clicking on "Radio" at the top and then under "Previous Broadcast" click on "Terrorism 2" 10/10/08.
Pertinent to this thread, this person states and I quote:
Do not consider Allah as God...Allah and God are not the same. Islam does not believe in a Triune God and Christianity does. Do not ever let anyone tell that Allah is just another name for God. To say such a thing is blasphemous. Allah was selected by Muhammad from a pantheon of 360 lunar gods in Arabia. Jehovah God is the eternally existent and only God of the universe. Allah had no sons, but the God of the Bible gave His only Son to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. Allah says kill your sons so that you can come to Heaven and God said, "I killed my Son so that you can come to Heaven." There is a vast difference between Allah and God.
Does this not really reflect the true opinion of Christians?
Pertinent to this thread, this person states and I quote:
Do not consider Allah as God...Allah and God are not the same. Islam does not believe in a Triune God and Christianity does. Do not ever let anyone tell that Allah is just another name for God. To say such a thing is blasphemous. Allah was selected by Muhammad from a pantheon of 360 lunar gods in Arabia. Jehovah God is the eternally existent and only God of the universe. Allah had no sons, but the God of the Bible gave His only Son to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. Allah says kill your sons so that you can come to Heaven and God said, "I killed my Son so that you can come to Heaven." There is a vast difference between Allah and God.
Does this not really reflect the true opinion of Christians?
Keltoi
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Of course Christians do not think that Muhammed was a true prophet. That isn't meant as an insult or an attack. As for whether Christians believe Muslims worship the same God, that is probably all over the map. I personally think that Christians and Muslims do worship the same God. Others would agree or disagree with that opinion.
As for the radio broadcast in question, I find that to be a combative and unproductive expression of faith. I've personally never heard of this guy, but his opinion does represent the opinion of quite a few people I'm sure. However, I'm not sure I would make some grand declaration that it represents the "true opinion of Christians."
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I don't think so, not in general. That attitude may be typical of a few who seem to consider it necessary to attack Islam, but not of the majority. It's wise not to confuse the two, just as it is with their respective muslim equivalents.
I think most people of either, and indeed neither, religion consider the God of Christianity and that of Islam to be the same one... philosophically, of course, He rather has to be. The important distinguishing issue is that pointed out by Keltoi, and if Christians believed otherwise they would be muslims, not Christians!
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I'd have called that moron's show and toyed with his emotions a bit with some theological questions, you know the ones the church sweeps under the rug or prefers not to address..
'lunar God' the hilarity.. almost in the same ballpark as an ostrich burying its head under the sand because it can't deal with what is happening...