Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

You misunderstand. I did not mean to imply the oft touted Islamic 'partners' with God, or that Jesus is a separate entity from God. They are both distinct but are still one. Here's what's in Saint John.

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace a truth.' John 1: 1-4, 14.

Maybe a good illustration can be seen in the first chapter of Genesis 1:26 where God says let us make man in his image and likeness. Therefore: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body. So God is triune in nature and still one, just as we are triune in nature and are still one.



Well, there are many people and witnesses that attest that Jesus is the Son of God throughout the New Testament. If you are considering the veracity of the matter you have many people attesting to this. Jesus himself said in the mouth of two or more witnesses every word shall be established (Matthew 18:16).

I think the Quran speaks of this in a more elloquient way which is more befitting for the might of Allah SWT. Allah SWT did not need to walk the earth for his message to be pronounced. He merely has to say Be and it is and he is way above his creation.

(Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah." (Aali Imran 3:45)

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah - to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He); It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad SAW) who believes in Allah and His Words [(this Qur'an), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and also Allah's Word: "Be!" - and he was, i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary),], and follow him so that you may be guided." (Al-A'raf 7:158)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All*Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4:171)
 
'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
sorry, how does this verse prove that the son and the father are one God? In fact, this is a prove against you showing that there were two distinct gods. Also, how do we know that the verse is talking about the son and not something else?
 
sorry, how does this verse prove that the son and the father are one God? In fact, this is a prove against you showing that there were two distinct gods. Also, how do we know that the verse is talking about the son and not something else?
Honestly, by itself is doesn't. But then again, Fedos didn't quote it in isolation. As he showed, this Word becomes flesh and dwells among us. So, this Word, who the verse you quoted tells us is God. He is not one of many Gods but THE one and only God who appears walking around on earth. And this person that God appears as, the same passage also goes on to tell us is identified by John the Baptist as Jesus. Hence, for the Christian, this is seen as proof that Jesus was the incarnation of the God of the universe who created all things, and "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Now, by itself, all that one could say even now, is that Jesus is God. It is other passages that remind us that within the singular godhead that there is a community of distinct persons, yet still just one and only one God. Perhaps you are having trouble understanding that from a Christian perspective (and even from the persepctive of first century Judiasm, though I suspect Jews would debate this point today) there is nothing non-monothesitic about recognizing a distinction of persons within the one and only God.
 
I appreciate your openness to developing friendships outside of Islam and your willingness to respect others faiths even as you invite those same people to accept what you believe to not only be superior, but also true. My concern is with how you say we are to determine truth.

Debating does not determine what is true. Debating is a contest of people matching their skills regarding debating; it only appears to be a contest between truth and error. The likelihood of finding truth through debate is no greater than the likelihood of finding truth through any other contest be it a duel, tug-of-war, or playing tiddly-winks. Of course it is helpful to have knowledge and be skilled in logic, but those things can be employed in the pursuit of error and falsehood, as they have been many times over the course of human history.

There are times that I feel compelled to debate because I see people making what I consider to be false statements or using faulty logic. But I must recognize that doing so in forums such as these is actually a futile exercise, I've never yet found any of those discussions to change minds that are already made up before the conversation starts. And all minds here appear to be predisposed toward or against a given set of beliefs from the beginning. So, have the debate to sharpen your ability to present your one set of beliefs, but don't fool yourself into thinking that such discussion really prove anything to another with an opposing view.



Hi Grace Seeker Bro..

How r u? long time no see....


u r starting a great debate and comments and questioning....

:D
 
Honestly, by itself is doesn't. But then again, Fedos didn't quote it in isolation. As he showed, this Word becomes flesh and dwells among us. So, this Word, who the verse you quoted tells us is God. He is not one of many Gods but THE one and only God who appears walking around on earth. And this person that God appears as, the same passage also goes on to tell us is identified by John the Baptist as Jesus. Hence, for the Christian, this is seen as proof that Jesus was the incarnation of the God of the universe who created all things, and "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Now, by itself, all that one could say even now, is that Jesus is God. It is other passages that remind us that within the singular godhead that there is a community of distinct persons, yet still just one and only one God. Perhaps you are having trouble understanding that from a Christian perspective (and even from the persepctive of first century Judiasm, though I suspect Jews would debate this point today) there is nothing non-monothesitic about recognizing a distinction of persons within the one and only God.
since you've claimed that i've hard time understanding the concept of trioun god and the fact that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, maybe you can help me. Let's relook at the that verse:

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

First: There's no such thing as beginning when it comes to God because He exists from eternity, NO BEGINNING. So does the 2nd god had a beginning?

Second: So when there was beginning of something, there existed a word who was with first god and he was also a god. So we've a first god and a 2nd god; using simple math last time i checked 1 + 1 = 2 not 1.

Third: Three distinct entities having the same attributes doesn't prove that they are all one. How can even someone logically calim that when they also claim they are distinct? The whole conept is contradictory: you got three different gods yet they are one; you got the son who is god and a man at the same time.

Fourth: How can a part of something be the whole thing when it is the part of the whole thing?
 
since you've claimed that i've hard time understanding the concept of trioun god and the fact that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, maybe you can help me. Let's relook at the that verse:

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

First: There's no such thing as beginning when it comes to God because He exists from eternity, NO BEGINNING. So does the 2nd god had a beginning?

Second: So when there was beginning of something, there existed a word who was with first god and he was also a god. So we've a first god and a 2nd god; using simple math last time i checked 1 + 1 = 2 not 1.

Third: Three distinct entities having the same attributes doesn't prove that they are all one. How can even someone logically calim that when they also claim they are distinct? The whole conept is contradictory: you got three different gods yet they are one; you got the son who is god and a man at the same time.

Fourth: How can a part of something be the whole thing when it is the part of the whole thing?

Whether you are having a hard time understanding the Christian concept of a triune God or not, I don't know. I said "perhaps", not "it seems that you are having a hard time...." It might also be you understand it very well, and simply reject it. But let me be clear, as long as you talk about a first God and then of a 2nd god, you are NOT talking about the Christian understanding of the ONE and ONLY God who happens to be triune with regard to his nature.


I agree that God exists before the beginning. As the creator of all things God is also the creator of both time and space. God exists outside of these things. Humans being locked into time and space are things which cause some to ask questions like "How could God be both in the garden praying and in heaven hearing that prayer at the same time?" (Not saying that you've ever asked that question, but plenty of people over the centuries have.) Such a question is one that assume that God is limited by time and space rather than outside of them, and since he is not such a question seems irrelevant to me. But I digress from your questions.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
(John 1:1-3)​

What I note is that the Word was present in the beginning. To me that means that whenever, however the beginning occured, when it did the Word was already present. Thus the Word existed before the beginning, just as God would have to exist before the beginning. Like you said, "There's no such thing as beginning when it comes to God because He exists from eternity, NO BEGINNING." This is just what Moses said:
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
Psalm 90:2​
And all of this is true of the WORD as well, because, as the scripture says: "the Word was God."



As far as a first god and second god, as I've already said, not within the Christian understanding of God. Look at some of the titles that Prophet Isaiah said were to be given to the Messiah:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6​
That phrase "Everlasting Father" is an interesting one. Especially since Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God as "our Father" and many other Jews of the rabbinical period of Judaism also referred to God as Father. In fact, this concept of God's Fatherhood is true from everlasting to everlasting, i.e. something that was true for all of both time and eternity, it is an unchanging attribute of who God is. Curious, why a Jewish prophet from the 7th century before the birth of Jesus would then apply that particular title to the Jewish Messiah and not to God alone, unless he is making some sort of identification for the divine nature of the Messiah the way that John does for the Word? But, Isaiah isn't here to ask, so we may have to leave that question unanswered. What we can do though is talk about what it means to speak of the Fatherhood of God the way that Jesus did.

I just happen to be a father, mabye you are as well. I don't know. But I do know that I have not always been a father. Do you know when I became a father? When my first child was born. It takes having a child to make a man a father. That is what it means to be a father (unless one is talking about the title given to a Catholic priest, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that Jesus was not making such a reference to God). Jesus and the Jews were talking about the nature of the relationship that God had with humanity. But I believe it was more than that, this relationship was just a reflection of something more, something that was true of the very nature of God himself, that nature being that God has always been a Father. That is why Isaiah speaks of the Everlasting Father. In other words, even before the beginning, one of the things that scripture (at least Christian scripture, I know not Islamic scripture) is affirming about God is that one of the aspects that is unchanging about God's being is that of the role of Father. Now, if this is so, and if it was true even before the beginning, then of whom was God the Father. It can only be so if along with the eternal Father, there is an eternal Son. Thus the eternal Father/Son aspect of the nature of God has always been true, since even before the beginning, since before people started counting "1", "2", ... This is not about arithmetic (which again measures time and space, something God is outside of). This is about the nature and character of God who has always been the One God who within himself exists in a divine community of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


I am not sure what you are asking with your last question:
Fourth: How can a part of something be the whole thing when it is the part of the whole thing?
I am not talking about a part of something being the whole or vice versa.

Do you own a pant leg? My guess is you own at least 2 pant legs. When you bought them did you not buy pants? Yet, it was a purchase of single item, not 2 items. Now, if we can in our common every day speach speak of singluar items as plural nouns, and not find this illogical. Why should we not imagine that God might be greater than our logical minds can comprehend and be capable of existing as three distinct persons and yet just one being, for this is all that we are saying. There is just one God; we know him in three distinct persona.
 
Hi Grace Seeker Bro..

How r u? long time no see....


u r starting a great debate and comments and questioning....

:D
I've been good. Thanks for asking. Hope you had a good month of Ramadan, and that your celebration of the Eid was a blessed one with your family.


I hardly think I'm starting anything, this seems to be a rather constant discussion on this part of the forum. One I'm not naive enough to think I'm going to resolve to everyone's satisfaction either. But, if people are asking honest questions, I don't mind returning to the topic again. If I find the conversation drifting away from a genuine search for understanding, I'll probably bow out. But with regard to honest questions, should I not do my best to give a defense for the faith that is within me? I invite all such questions, seekers, even doubters as long as they are sincere in their approach.
 
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Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

The statement above show how theological debates always ended (at least with Protestants).

Dominus vobiscum

-------------------------------
Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus. Nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
 
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

The statement above show how theological debates always ended (at least with Protestants).

Dominus vobiscum

-------------------------------
Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus. Nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
greetings, looks like you are a Catholic? anyways there is Eric here, whom I like and probably you will too

Peace
Sancta Maria, mater Dei
does that mean "Saint Mary, Mother of God"?
 
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Greetings and peace be with you doorster, sadly I am not up on Latin.

greetings, looks like you are a Catholic? anyways there is Eric here, whom you will like very much

Thank you very much for your kind words brother doorster, and welcome to the forum hankpin, I hope you will feel as welcomed as I have.

In theory it should be easier for me to be as one with another Catholic, than it is to be as one with a Muslim, atheist or Hindu.

But the greatest commandments seem to draw me towards striving to be as one with others despite all our differences.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding

Eric
 
Greetings and peace be with you doorster, sadly I am not up on Latin.



Thank you very much for your kind words brother doorster, and welcome to the forum hankpin, I hope you will feel as welcomed as I have.

In theory it should be easier for me to be as one with another Catholic, than it is to be as one with a Muslim, atheist or Hindu.

But the greatest commandments seem to draw me towards striving to be as one with others despite all our differences.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding

Eric
:D ok I have changed it to look less .. what's the word..

Peace
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

The statement above show how theological debates always ended (at least with Protestants).
^^ and with that, I think he is saying that Protestants say that: "There is no salvation outside (of their) Church" then he ended with "The Lord be with you" (which gave me the impression that he will be like you and will like you)

..............................................................
<snip> a Latin translating website <snip>
 
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If I was to describe the British Prime Minister by saying that he had balding fair hair, two good eyes, a pronounced Irish accent and that he walked with a limp it might be fair for you to conclude that I was not describing Gordon Brown at all.

The fact that various world religions have a concept of single divine being should not be taken to mean that their respective descriptions of that divine being are the same or even compatible. It is reasonable and logical to conclude that one or even all of the various beliefs about the One God are partly or largely wrongheaded.

I do not belief in a "God" who has power but no personality. Neither do I believe in a "God" who is incapable of dwelling with us as a human being if he wills. With all due respect to Muslims and Islam, I do not believe in the Islamic idea of the divine being but, nevertheless, I absolutely believe in the One God who made himself real and known in the person of Jesus Christ in the Power of His Holy Spirit.

Incidentally, I am a father, a husband and a brother but I am one person.
 
Whether you are having a hard time understanding the Christian concept of a triune God or not, I don't know. I said "perhaps", not "it seems that you are having a hard time...." It might also be you understand it very well, and simply reject it. But let me be clear, as long as you talk about a first God and then of a 2nd god, you are NOT talking about the Christian understanding of the ONE and ONLY God who happens to be triune with regard to his nature.
why do i've understand these verses according to trinitarian perspective? Why not unitarian? Your permise is flawed!

I'll go over rest of your post later

I do not belief in a "God" who has power but no personality. Neither do I believe in a "God" who is incapable of dwelling with us as a human being if he wills.
to say that God is like humans is anthropomorphism. If God can become human, how do we differentiate between human and god? No Scriptures please, a logical evidence! On top of that your god was 100% human and 100% god at the same time. Can you please address the contradiction?

With all due respect to Muslims and Islam, I do not believe in the Islamic idea of the divine being but, nevertheless, I absolutely believe in the One God who made himself real and known in the person of Jesus Christ in the Power of His Holy Spirit.
the answer is very simple: polytheists never understood the true meaning of monotheism.

Incidentally, I am a father, a husband and a brother but I am one person.
here we go again: poor trinitarian's analogies. Why do a person need to relay on flawed analogies to understand the creed? Are you father to your brother? Are you father to your wife? According to the first part of the trinity: 3 DIFFERENT persons physically exist NOT one person with three roles.
 
and no doubt you can do all three simultaneously in 3 different places:rollseyes

Are you discounting the time 'God' was in the womb and the time he died?
The best thing for christianity to survive in this day and age really, it to turn it into fairy tales like Narnia, because no logical thinking person can make sense of it otherwise..

:w:
 
why do i've understand these verses according to trinitarian perspective? Why not unitarian? Your permise is flawed!
You most certainly do not have to understand these or any other verses from a trinitarian perspective. I tend to agree with Skye Ephémérine when she says that the Christian understanding of God does not make logical sense. There is much about God that defies human logic. That may be a stumbling block too big for some. I can't do anything about that. Yet I still hold these illogical things to be true, for they are declared as true in the scriptues and I submit that nothing is impossible for God.

But if you are going to participate in this thread, I do think that one should at least attempt to understand what Christians actually mean by these verses and how they interpret them. After all we are talking about not just Muslim's Tauwheed, but also Christian Trinity. Or at least it would appear so from the title of this thread. To talk only of one and not fairly represent the other, seems to me to render the whole point of the thread -- asking if they are the same-- to be moot.
 
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God makes logical sense to one capable of or reflecting and drawing upon valid reasoning.
A thinking man doesn't need to be evangelized to understand --there is a God!.. for how did Abraham find God when there was no one to preach to him 'trinity'?-- he sat with himself and reflected upon the universe. There is no point of conditioning your mind to something it rejects time and time again.
 
Are you discounting the time 'God' was in the womb and the time he died?
The best thing for christianity to survive in this day and age really, it to turn it into fairy tales like Narnia, because no logical thinking person can make sense of it otherwise..

:w:

Well, I will say that that is what things like Bible prophecy is for, serving to convert even the hardest of skeptics. I've heard of many instances of individuals who approach the Bible with a sincere effort to prove it wrong, but when they study it from a prophetical point of view they end up converting.
 
Well, I will say that that is what things like Bible prophecy is for, serving to convert even the hardest of skeptics. I've heard of many instances of individuals who approach the Bible with a sincere effort to prove it wrong, but when they study it from a prophetical point of view they end up converting.

mystifying indeed since Islamic prophecies all without excepton (small signs that is) have happened and continue on to the big ones.. if that is reason to subscribe to a religion at all
http://www.islaam.org/Al_Mahdi/major_signs.htm

http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/Signs.htm

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/unseen/0002.htm

and here is one of particular interest using the book of Daniel

http://www.islaam.com/books/0_preface.htm

perhaps you were misinterpreting?

if that is all you had to rely on, sadly you'd be better off following Nostradamus...


cheers
 
mystifying indeed since Islamic prophecies all without excepton (small signs that is) have happened and continue on to the big ones.. if that is reason to subscribe to a religion at all
http://www.islaam.org/Al_Mahdi/major_signs.htm

http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/Signs.htm

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/unseen/0002.htm

and here is one of particular interest using the book of Daniel

http://www.islaam.com/books/0_preface.htm

perhaps you were misinterpreting?

if that is all you had to rely on, sadly you'd be better off following Nostradamus...


cheers

Actually, it didn't take that at all for me to accept Christ. My conversion came about because I got into an argument with a coworker who insisted that you had to be baptized in order to be saved. I was referring to the hardest of skeptics. And I don't think a lot of the Old Testament prophecies relating to the children of Israel are mystifiying, nor the Messianic ones (Isaiah 53 comes to mind).
 

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