Polytheism: Whats the snags?

[جوري]

Mixture of both Gods.

As regards Allah:
Hate

The Children of Israel
[17.38] All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord.
The Ranks
[61.3] It is most hateful to Allah that you should say that which you do not do.

hateful in the sight of Allah doesn't mean that Allah has the emotion of hate.. It means, it is an abomination! a detestable act!

Love
The Family of Imrahm
[3.31] Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Notice in the above I mentioned nothing about love, I wrote (hate) and (in his image).. in fact one can be a friend to Allah such as Ibrahim SAW
by the way that is the family of imran! not imrahm

The Elevated places
[7.55] Call on your Lord humbly and secretly; surely He does not love those who exceed the limits.

Again as verse one, the act of excess is an abomination, not that Allah has such an emotion!

Revenge
Volume 8, Book 81, Number 777:
Narrated Aisha:

Whenever the Prophet was given an option between two things, he used to select the easier of the tow as long as it was not sinful; but if it was sinful, he would remain far from it. By Allah, he never took revenge for himself concerning any matter that was presented to him, but when Allah's Limits were transgressed, he would take revenge for Allah's Sake.

Allah must need revenge or Mohammed wouldnt have taken revenge for him.

What does this hadtih have to do with the Quran? Also it isn't about revenge it is about justice!

As for the others and indeed including the above, they apply to Yahweh and many other Gods. Zeus was supposed to be insanely Jealous and quick to anger.

Islam isn't in any ballpark with Judeo/christian depiction of God.. and certainly can't be made to be compared to Mythology..

cheers

 

[barney]

hateful in the sight of Allah doesn't mean that Allah has the emotion of hate.. It means, it is an abomination! a detestable act!

Notice in the above I mentioned nothing about love, I wrote (hate) and (in his image).. in fact one can be a friend to Allah such as Ibrahim SAW
by the way that is the family of imran! not imrahm

Again as verse one, the act of excess is an abomination, not that Allah has such an emotion!



What does this hadtih have to do with the Quran? Also it isn't about revenge it is about justice!


Islam isn't in any ballpark with Judeo/christian depiction of God.. and certainly can't be made to be compared to Mythology..

cheers

Its hateful in the sight of Allah, In Allahs sight its hateful, Allah sees it and Its a thing he hates. Allah feels hate towards this thingy he's looking at. It dosnt say abomination there, it dosnt say detestable. It says Allah has seen something and he hates it. Simple.

The Hadith dosnt mention justice. It says Revenge. Its not that he's getting justice for allah, he's taking revenge for Allah. Those are the words, the Hadith is reliable and you appear to be slotting in different words, and that for certain is NOT permissable is it?

 

[جوري]

Its hateful in the sight of Allah, In Allahs sight its hateful, Allah sees it and Its a thing he hates. Allah feels hate towards this thingy he's looking at. It dosnt say abomination there, it dosnt say detestable. It says Allah has seen something and he hates it. Simple.

The Hadith dosnt mention justice. It says Revenge. Its not that he's getting justice for allah, he's taking revenge for Allah. Those are the words, the Hadith is reliable and you appear to be slotting in different words, and that for certain is NOT permissable is it?

Hello there dear barn..
I challenge you to bring me those verses or hadith in original Arabic and maintain that it is as you claim, rather than what have explained !

cheers

 

[barney]

Well as the Arabic reader, I'm sure you can do that!
Also there are many many Arabic readers on the forum, with Arabic as a first language.

So lets put it out to them shall we?
In the "Original Arabic"

The Children of Israel
[17.38] All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord.
The Ranks
[61.3] It is most hateful to Allah that you should say that which you do not do.



The Family of Imrahm
[3.31] Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

The Elevated places
[7.55] Call on your Lord humbly and secretly; surely He does not love those who exceed the limits.




Revenge
Volume 8, Book 81, Number 777:
Narrated Aisha:

Whenever the Prophet was given an option between two things, he used to select the easier of the tow as long as it was not sinful; but if it was sinful, he would remain far from it. By Allah, he never took revenge for himself concerning any matter that was presented to him, but when Allah's Limits were transgressed, he would take revenge for Allah's Sake.


Arabic speakers.
What are the words?
From the three best translations please.
Is Hate "abomnible"
Is Revenge "Justice"

017.038
YUSUFALI: Of all such things the evil is hateful in the sight of thy Lord.
PICKTHAL: The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord.
SHAKIR: All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord.

Lets see if the three top translators are all mistaken?

 

[جوري]

Ana la afham ma katabat. laow toreed an tanqud ma kotib la bodda an tokhatboni bel 3rabya..
otherwise will get no where barn!

cheers

 

[جوري]

Name of Questioner
S. M - Canada

Title
The Nature of Allah

Question
Scholars of Islam, as-Salamu `alaykum. I am curious about the nature of Allah. I know Allah is not a person, nor anything like a man, but the Qur’an always refers to Allah as “He” or “Him” and even sometimes “I” and “We”. Is this just for our understanding, or maybe something that is lost in the translation? I see Allah as an unfolding, never ending source of power, but without any emotion or the same kind of thought process as mortals. I was wondering if you could help me on this.

Date
07/Jul/2003

Name of Counsellor
Muzammil Siddiqi

Topic
Muslim Belief



Answer



Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.



All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a sound belief and faith. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to become well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam in all aspects of life.

Before addressing this question, it is essential to state the following: The Islamic approach towards dealing with any issue relating to faith and practice is direct. Thus, this invariably involves looking at what the Qur’an has to say, how this was understood and applied by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and the pious generations, who are considered our perennial role models in all matters of deen (religion).

First of all, we would like to stress the fact that, every committed Muslim should have a firm belief that Allah Almighty is UNIQUE in everything. There is no resemblance between Allah the Creator and His creation. Referring to this, Allah Almighty says: "Nothing is like Him and He hears and sees all things." (Ash-Shura: 11)

In his response to your question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

“According to the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah, we say Allah is the Most Powerful (Al-Qawiyy). We may say that Allah’s power is unfolding and never ending, but we do not say that Allah is ‘an unfolding never ending power.’

In Islam, we believe that Allah has many Names and Beautiful Attributes. Allah sees, hears, speaks, likes, and dislikes. Allah listens to our prayers and blesses those who believe in Him and obey Him. It is correct that Allah is not a person like a man, but this does not mean that Allah is some kind of abstract being, or mere energy or power. If you read the Qur’an, you will see that there are many personal qualities of Allah. But the Qur’an reminds us that “Nothing is like Him and He hears and sees all things.” (Ash-Shura: 11) This is a very profound statement. On the one hand it denies all anthropomorphism (tashbih), and on the other hand it rejects all kind of nihilism (ta`til).

Allah Most High also loves, hates, is pleased, gets angry, wishes us to do certain things, and does not like us to do some other things. But in the case of Allah these are not emotions like those of mortals. These are according to His own Majesty and Greatness. We cannot fully grasp His Attributes, because He is infinite and we are finite. We have no other way of knowing Him, except what He tells us through His Book and His Prophets. In the Qur’an Allah says about Himself in the famous Ayat al-Kursi: “Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what (appears to His creatures as) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His Throne does extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them, for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).” (Al-Baqarah: 255)

The pronouns ‘He’, ‘Him’ or ‘I’, ‘We’ are to indicate that Allah is a Being, not a thing. We do not use the pronoun ‘It’ for Allah. If it were our belief that Allah is ‘power’ or ‘energy’ then we could have used the expression ‘It’, but this is not acceptable in Islam. We do not believe that Allah is a male or a female. Allah is beyond maleness and femaleness. Allah is the Creator of both males and females. Muslims do not make an image of Allah. Even if an image comes to their mind they say, ‘Allah Akbar,’ (Allah is Greater) and He transcends this particular image. In the Qur’an Allah speaks sometimes as ‘I’ and sometimes as ‘We’. This is to describe His power and His closeness. But Allah is never referred to as ‘They’ or ‘You’ in the plural (hum or antum).

I suggest you read the Qur’an carefully and see for yourself what Allah says about Himself. There is no book in which you can find a more authentic and direct word of Allah better than the Qur’an.”

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.pakistanlink.com

You can also read:



Naught Is as His likeness!



Pronoun ‘He’ Referring to Allah in the Qur’an



The Pronoun ‘We’ Referring to Allah in the Qur’an



If you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547114


this should take care of it.. I am in no mood for a 15 page argument.

 

[جوري]

And another, seems all minds think alike?
Anyhow you have more Q's I suggest you navigate through the website -- I am sure everything you think of has been thought of and answered
cheers

Name of Questioner


Maryam - Qatar


Title


Naught Is as His likeness!


Question


As-Salamu `Alaykum. Most people imagine Allah to have a certain form or image and to be in a particular place. Is this belief correct? What does Islam tell us about the appearance or physical attributes of Allah Almighty, and His place?


Date


20/Jun/2002


Name of Counsellor


Islam Online Fatwa Editing Desk


Topic


Muslim Belief



Answer


Wa`alaykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

First of all, we would like to stress the fact that, every committed Muslim should have a firm belief that Allah Almighty is UNIQUE in everything. There is no resemblance between Allah, the Creator and His creation. Referring to this, Allah Almighty says: "Naught is as His likeness; and He is the Hearer, the Seer." (Ash-Shura: 11)

Also, one should be aware of the perverted ideas promoted by non-Muslims in this regard. In addition, every Muslim has to be aware of the snares of the Satan, and to avoid any wishful thinking concerning such issues that do more harm to the minds of Muslims than benefiting them.

In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), states the following:

"Allah, Glorified be He, is not something abstract. The Qur'an describes Him as a Personal Being with face, eyes, hands. He sees, hears, speaks, sits on the throne, likes and dislikes, loves and hates, certain things please Him and certain things displease Him and make Him angry. All these descriptions are in the Qur'an. Thus Allah certainly has an image or Surah.

We, Muslims, believe in and accept all that Allah has told us about Himself. But we do not say "how".

In Islamic theology this is called 'Bila Kayf' or 'without how.' Thus, we accept that Allah has face, hands and eyes, but we do not make a picture or an image of them. Allah Almigty says:""Naught is as His likeness; and He is the Hearer, the Seer." (Ash-Shura: 11). He Almighty also says: "There is none equal to Him." (Al-Ikhlas :4)

It is acceptable in Islam to say that Allah is above or to raise one's head or hands towards the heaven to pray to Allah. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, went to the heavens in his Mi`raj and there Allah spoke to him. The “above” signifies the greatness, honor and glory of Allah. However Allah is not limited and confined to any particular place. His knowledge encompasses everything.

The Qur'an also tells us that He is very close to us. Allah Almighty also says: "…and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do." (Al-Hadid: 4)"

Moreover, Dr. `Abdur-Raziq Muhammad Fadl at Al-Azhar University, adds:

"There are limits to what our mortal minds can grasp, in the sense that we will surely go astray if we give free rein to our thinking about Allah. A Muslim has to keep in mind that what applies to Allah do not apply to His Creatures. Allah Almighty says, "Vision comprehendeth Him not, but He comprehendeth (all) vision. He is the Subtle, the Aware." (Al-An`aam: 102)

Elaborating more on this, Sheikh Muhammad Saleh Al-Munajjid, the well known Saudi Islamic lecturer and author, states:

"The people of Ahl As-Sunnah Wal Jama`ah believe that Allah is exalted above His creation. This is based on the evidence from the Qur'an, Sunnah, consensus of the scholars, common sense and man's innate instinct or Fitrah

The Qur'an:

The Qur`an describes the "exaltedness" or "highness" of Allah in different ways, as His being High and Above, and by describing how things come down from Him, and go up to Him, and by stating that He is above heaven. For example, Allah Almighty says: ". . .and He is the Most High, the Most Great." (Al-Baqarah : 255)

He Almighty also says: "Glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most High." (Al-A'la:1)

The Sunnah:

Many authentic reports state that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used to say "Subhana Rabbi Al-A'la or "Glory be to my Lord Most High" in sujood, and in some Hadiths he is reported to have said "By Allah Who is above the Throne."

Among his deeds is the gesture of pointing up with his finger, when addressing the people in the greatest gathering, on the Day of 'Arafah during his Farewell Pilgrimage. He asked the people, "Have I conveyed the message?" and they said, "Yes, you have." He asked again, "Have I conveyed the message?" and they said, "Yes, you have ". He asked a third time, have I conveyed the message?" and they said "Yes, you have!" Each time, he said: "O Allah, bear witness!". He said so while pointing up to the sky and then at the people.

The Prophet also used to raise his hands towards heaven when he made Du`a, as it’s reported in tens of Hadiths. This also confirms the fact that Allah is Exalted and High.

An example of an approval of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon Him, which indicates that Allah is Exalted and High is the Hadith concerning the young slave girl, to whom the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon Him, said: "Where is Allah?" She said: "In heaven" He asked, "Who am I?" She said, "The Messenger of Allah." So he said to her master: "Set her free, for she is a believer." This young girl, though uneducated and a slave, knew that her Lord is above heaven.

Common Sense:

Highness is a quality which is associated in people's minds with perfection. If this is the case, then it should be attributed to Allah because every absolute perfection should be attributed to Him."

The above quotation is excerpted with slight modifications from www.Islam-qa.com

Finally, it’s clear that Allah Almighty is Omnipresent, though our mortal minds fall short to grasp His Divine Presence. But we have to bear in mind that He is the Creator of physical space and time, He is All-Knowing of every single millimeter in the entire universe.

If you have any further comments, please don't hesitate to write back!

May Allah guide you to the straight path, and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543204

 

[Grace Seeker]

do go on if you don't mind,
so when the son was human he was jesus, a human but still part of the trinity.
so still god was partially in our image since a persona was in human likeness?

If you take a picture of yourself in a mirror, is the photo image that develops proof that we are made in the image of what one sees in the mirror, or that mirror is an image reflective of who we actually are?

You might also recall that the part of humanity that is created in God's image is not our physical body, but that we among all of God's creation have a spiritual nature. Jesus' had a very human nature including human will, but his spiritual nature was fully divine in essence.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'd disagree, (i know...please dont die of shock about that! )

God we are Told is a jealous God, he is a planner/schemer and likes the smell of burnt sacrifices to him/her/it. He feels hate, he feels love he feels anger, revenge and indignation. These are all human emotions, the emotions of sentinent beings shared by many animals. They are often morally based, curiously identical to the morals of 3000 year old desert dewelling tribes.
We have "In the eyes" of God, by the "Hand of God", Moses sees the "face of god" and the "back of god".

This leads us to two possibilities
1) Man made God in his image
2) God made man in his image

Barney, I think you do have a point. There is a part of every man that seeks to understand that which is outside of our experience. So, when we a little child sees to dogs sniffing noses, the closest thing they can think of to that in their own lives is people kissing. So, regardless that the dogs are doing it for some completely other purpose, the child says that the dogs are kissing.

Now, while the Qur'an was dictated, the Bible was not. (Or at least I don't believe so, I know that some Christians do.) And that means that there is some room for the human element to express itself, perhaps even with false conclusions. In trying to express the inexpressable, they returned to that which was familiar to them, and so we find the highest aspects of human society used to speak of God. And in so doing we have imagined God to be like us, even though we know that he is not. But it is easier to speak of God seeing, hearing, emoting, and of God's hand, his heart, his body part because these emtions and body parts are what we know. I think we need to understand that such language falls short of the glory of God, it only hints at the reality behind the curtain. And if we look behind the curtain as our eyes are capable of seeing is another one like ourselves. But make no mistake about it, God is much bigger than what we can imagine. So it isn't so much that we create God in our image, for we don't create God at all. But because our imaginations are so limited we cannot think of a being that lives outside of time and space in which we have lived all of our lives, so we do imagine him like us as a being trapped in space and time, perhaps some even create a physical picture of an old man with a long beard in our image and then tend to speak of him that way. In that we are not able to truly conceive of God as he actually is and substitute that which we know of our own lives for his, we are all guilty of anthropomorphizing.

 

[barney]

Barney, I think you do have a point. There is a part of every man that seeks to understand that which is outside of our experience. ......... .

Excellent points as usual.

I dunno If Skye was responding to my post about "hate" and "revenge", I certainly diddnt see anything that addressed the arabic translation, just more cut,n, paste of some scholors ideas. Probably addressing another post.

Offer is still open for an Arabic speaker to translate the words.

 

[جوري]

It addresses the so-called human qualities of God.. if you don't want a scholarly reply that is your prerogative. But that is the best on the subject, you are welcome not to read it but fill ten pages worth of your own renditions.

Until such a time you are fluent in Arabic with enough dexterity to distinguish between having an innate emotion in lieu of warning with aversion towards, can we have this discussion one on one.

cheers

 

[alcurad]

If you take a picture of yourself in a mirror, is the photo image that develops proof that we are made in the image of what one sees in the mirror, or that mirror is an image reflective of who we actually are?

wouldn't it be both?

You might also recall that the part of humanity that is created in God's image is not our physical body, but that we among all of God's creation have a spiritual nature. Jesus' had a very human nature including human will, but his spiritual nature was fully divine in essence.

we're all part of the trinity then, since we all have souls that are divine in essence.
oh and what about Jesus's human nature, was that also part of the trinity?
if so, then still that means...but this is getting repetitive.

 

[Grace Seeker]

wouldn't it be both?

The intent of my question is to show that there is an original and then there are copies. Though the two may bear remarkable likeness to each other, the process of image making goes only in one direction.

we're all part of the trinity then, since we all have souls that are divine in essence.
oh and what about Jesus's human nature, was that also part of the trinity?
if so, then still that means...but this is getting repetitive.

No, the human soul is created in the image of God, but it is not of the same essence or substance as God himself is any more than a photographic which is in our image is of the same substance that you and I are. Jesus human body was corruptable, so was his will. He had to submit himself to the Father's will just as any other person does. But just as our bodies today are the temple of God's spirit, so Jesus' body incarnated the divine essence within it and thus he had two natures in his one person.

Now, since you previously asked me to go on, I shall. But I fear, nay expect, that I shall raise as many questions as I provide answers.

Saying that Christ has two natures is likely to be confusing if you have never considered that possibility before. Obviously you and I don't have two natures. And we don't even like people who are what we popularly call double-minded, saying first one thing and then doing another. So, it might be hard to relate to Christ being like this. But all that we are saying is that Jesus was both divine and human. The question you are asking now is really about the relationship between those two natures. So, let me first give some of the scriptural references that relate to this:

John 1

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
6 God sent a man, John the Baptist, 7 to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. 8 John himself was not the light; he was simply a witness to tell about the light. 9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

14 So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

In Christian belief the divine and human natures in Christ are neither mixed together producing some sort of hybrid (like yellow and blue make green, which is itself neither yellow nor blue), nor are the two natures divided from one another, each remote from and unaffected by their union. There are, not surprising heresieis that have arisen even within the Church, suggesting both extremes.

As you see in John, the Word (another name for the pre-incarnate Christ) was made flesh and dwelled among us. By this we understand that the uncreated divine nature, which we glorify in giving glory to the divine persons of the Trinity, becomes wedded to our human nature in the incarnation. (Of course I don't expect you to accept this, it is shirk to Muslims, I'm just explaining where Christians are coming from.)

So, Jesus must be viewed as a whole person, not as two halfs. But there is still a distinction between God and man in Christ. One of the early church father, Cyril of Alexandria, declared, "[Christ's] human nature was in no way confused with or subsumed into the divinity. [Yet] one could speak in terms of 'two natures' so long as this did not detract in anyway from the perfection of the union.

In time an ecumenical council was called, The Council of Chalcedon, which made the statement on the hypostatic union of the two natures in Christ that the church still adheres to -- that perfect divinity and perfect humanity are united in Christ "without confusion, without change, and without separation." Christ's humanity is not absorbed into his divinity, if that is what you are asking with regard to whether or not Christ's human nature was also a part of the Trinity. If that would happen with Christ it would mean that we too would be no long exist with our humanity intact when we ourselves meet God. So the divine does not overpower either our humanity nor that of Christ. We still continue to exist as humans even after joining with God through Jesus Christ, both on earth and in heaven. Jesus remained fully human as well, even as he was also fully God.

 

[Hamayun]

So is it that Christians never sin due to having the Essence of Christ in them? Or is it that you can sin without worrying about being punished because you got Christ to make up for them?

 

[Hamayun]

No, the human soul is created in the image of God, but it is not of the same essence or substance as God himself is any more than a photographic which is in our image is of the same substance that you and I are. Jesus human body was corruptable, so was his will. He had to submit himself to the Father's will just as any other person does. But just as our bodies today are the temple of God's spirit, so Jesus' body incarnated the divine essence within it and thus he had two natures in his one person.

Now, since you previously asked me to go, I shall. But I fear, nay expect, that I shall raise as many questions as I provide answers.

Saying that Christ has two natures is likely to be confusing if you have never considered that possibility before. Obviously you and I don't have two natures. And we don't even like people who are what we popularly call double-minded, saying first one thing and then doing another. So, it might be hard to relate to Christ being like this. But all that we are saying is that Jesus was both divine and human. The question you are asking now is really about the relationship between those two natures. So, let me first give some of the scriptural references that relate to this:



In Christian belief the divine and human natures in Christ are neither mixed together producing some sort of hybrid (like yellow and blue make green, which is itself neither yellow nor blue), nor are the two natures divided from one another, each remote from and unaffected by their union. There are, not surprising heresieis that have arisen even within the Church, suggesting both extremes.

As you see in John, the Word (another name for the pre-incarnate Christ) was made flesh and dwelled among us. By this we understand that the uncreated divine nature, which we glorify in giving glory to the divine persons of the Trinity, becomes wedded to our human nature in the incarnation. (Of course I don't expect you to accept this, it is shirk to Muslims, I'm just explaining where Christians are coming from.)

So, Jesus must be viewed as a whole person, not as two halfs. But there is still a distinction between God and man in Christ. One of the early church father, Cyril of Alexandria, declared, "[Christ's] human nature was in no way confused with or subsumed into the divinity. [Yet] one could speak in terms of 'two natures' so long as this did not detract in anyway from the perfection of the union.

In time an ecumenical council was called, The Council of Chalcedon, which made the statement on the hypostatic union of the two natures in Christ that the church still adheres to -- that perfect divinity and perfect humanity are united in Christ "without confusion, without change, and without separation." Christ's humanity is not absorbed into his divinity, if that is what you are asking with regard to whether or not Christ's human nature was also a part of the Trinity. If that would happen with Christ it would mean that we too would be no long exist with our humanity intact when we ourselves meet God. So the divine does not overpower either our humanity nor that of Christ. We still continue to exist as humans even after joining with God through Jesus Christ, both on earth and in heaven. Jesus remained fully human as well, even as he was also fully God.

I wish i could see sense in any of these posts but I fail to do so. With every post your concept of the trinity gets more tangled up and vague...

I am glad I am not in your shoes.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So is it that Christians never sin due to having the Essence of Christ in them?

No. I hope you didn't here me say this. " If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth." (1 John 1:8)

Or is it that you can sin without worrying about being punished because you got Christ to make up for them?

"But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1b-2)

 

[Grace Seeker]

I wish i could see sense in any of these posts but I fail to do so. With every post your concept of the trinity gets more tangled up and vague...

And I apologize for that. It wasn't my intention to confuse anyone, though any time you discuss theology I guess there is always the risk of that. What I shared here was more than just for those who are looking for a quick, casual understanding. It has to do with points of theology that Christians themselves debated amongst one another for a couple hundred years. Though the answers have been consistent over that time, there are still those who raise this issues. Alcurad has been asking good questions showing understanding of the previous points, this post was to provide him the "more" he had been asking for.

I am glad I am not in your shoes.

I imagine you wouldn't find them comfortable. But in a nutshell, the Trinity hinges on understanding that God did indeed walk in our shoes.

Please don't hear that as a second God, but as the one and only God. But that even as God did this, he was still present in all of the other places that God is as well. Walking in our shoes did not in any way diminishes the Father's capacity to be God or the Holy Spirit's capacity to be God. Only the Son was limited to space and time has he put on human flesh, and walked in our shoes. For that reason he did all of the things that we humans do. He ate, drank, wept, slept, and also prayed. When he prayed it was not praying to himself, he was praying to his Father who remained God, and to whom he submitted his own will. Though he now had both a divine and human nature in one person, the essence of his divine nature did not change, he still fully shared in the divine essence, even as he submitted to limit his experience and expression of his divine nature to be joined to a human nature. However, Jesus's life also showed us the true potentiality for human beings when we fully live within the divine will of the Father. By the power of God active in our lives we too can and should do the miracles that Jesus is recorded to have done. He did these miracles not based on his own power in having a divine nature, but in the power of God that is available to everyone who allows the Spirit of God to be instrumental in his/her life.

 

[alcurad]

thanks Grace Seeker, and I think I'll leave it at that for now,
I appreciate your answers & patience.

 

[barney]

It has to do with points of theology that Christians themselves debated amongst one another for a couple hundred years. Though the answers have been consistent over that time, there are still those who raise this issues. .

There was a lot of confusion about what was going to go into christianity as you say.
Since it is a given that the passing of time will not make anything truer, nor that mass beleif is in itself proof without evidence,how does the church know that what it decided upon was the "correct" story?

 

[Grace Seeker]

There was a lot of confusion about what was going to go into christianity as you say.
Since it is a given that the passing of time will not make anything truer, nor that mass beleif is in itself proof without evidence,how does the church know that what it decided upon was the "correct" story?

Fair enough question. And not to be "smart", but the answer might depend on what you mean by "the church" and "know."