Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

[MustafaMc]

There is no argument that God is forgiving. You rely on the promises contained in the Qur'an. The difference seems to be that you believe good deeds will get you into heaven - as promised.

No, you are wrong. It is up to Allah to judge me according to His means and as I have said I rely upon Allah's Mercy to forgive me rather than punish me for my sins. My performance of salah, fasting and charity do not "earn" my spot in Heaven; however, my performance of them may count as good deeds if my intentions are also good. One thing about the Muslim worship that is completely foreign to Christians is that it is a duty and a responsibility to Allah that we fullfil and non-performance of our responsibilities is a neglectful sin.

My contention is that no amount of good deeds can remove your sin and you will still be punished for your sin.

In contrast, in Islam the performance of a good deed can cancel out a bad deed or sin. For that matter punishment in this life for a sin precludes one being punished for it in the Hereafter.

Now we can argue the merits of both, but let us look at what has happened and the real nature of the false message.

What about the parable of the prodigal son? How severely was he punished when he returned to his father seeking only to be treated as a slave? What about the incident of the adulterous woman that the Jewish leaders brought to Jesus (as)? Did Jesus (as) cast the first stone to punish her, or did he say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first one?" Don't you see that these are examples of forgiveness?

One thing that is extremely surprising to me is the Christian insistence that God cannot forgive sin, but rather that the sinner must be punished either vicariously through the sacrifice of Jesus (as) or personally in the Hellfire if he rejects the free gift of salvation.

Please, read the definition below for forgive and answer the question, "Can God forgive sin or must He punish it?"

forgive
1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b: to grant relief from payment of
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon

In Islam, we have a hadith that goes something to the effect that there is no amount of good that I can do that will benefit Allah by even one iota such that Allah is obligated to reward me and that there is no amount of sin that I can do that will harm Allah in the least such that He could not forgive it.

A parable for you: If I were to pour either a gallon of the most expensive perfume or a 55 gallon drum of urine into San Francisco Bay will someone on the shore of Tokyo Bay be able to perceive this contamination of seawater even with the most precise instrumentation?

 

[fromgenesis]

No, you are wrong. It is up to Allah to judge me according to His means and as I have said I rely upon Allah's Mercy to forgive me rather than punish me for my sins. My performance of salah, fasting and charity do not "earn" my spot in Heaven; however, my performance of them may count as good deeds if my intentions are also good.

I understand that you say you rely completely on Allah’s mercy. Why are you then concerned about what weighs more than the other if it has no impact and has no relevance?

One thing about the Muslim worship that is completely foreign to Christians is that it is a duty and a responsibility to Allah that we fullfil and non-performance of our responsibilities is a neglectful sin.In contrast, in Islam the performance of a good deed can cancel out a bad deed or sin.

In case of reborn Christians, good deeds are neither duties nor responsibilities. It is a natural result. If you do it as a duty or responsibility, you are still, what referred to in the Bible “In the flesh” and not living “in the spirit”. This is referred to even in the Old testament
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: and New
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

For that matter punishment in this life for a sin precludes one being punished for it in the Hereafter.

Does the Qur’an teach that?

What about the parable of the prodigal son? How severely was he punished when he returned to his father seeking only to be treated as a slave?

Yes, it shows that if we return to the Father, He will accept us and be glad. You will notice that the son repented and realised that he does not deserve to be received as an heir or a son.

What about the incident of the adulterous woman that the Jewish leaders brought to Jesus (as)? Did Jesus (as) cast the first stone to punish her, or did he say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first one?" Don't you see that these are examples of forgiveness?

Yes, it was to show up the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Jesus however said
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

One thing that is extremely surprising to me is the Christian insistence that God cannot forgive sin, but rather that the sinner must be punished either vicariously through the sacrifice of Jesus (as) or personally in the Hellfire if he rejects the free gift of salvation.

That is not true. God forgives sin but as you indicated with the prodigal son, you need to repent and come to the Father not based on any of your deeds, but in humility and a broken spirit.

We must however not create our own idea on what basis God forgives. We have seen that God punishes sin (also see your earlier remark). So if He is fair, then He cannot let some go unpunished and some punished. He is just. He has punished Jesus for sins that His people have committed. That is what was prophesied and that was what Jesus Himself said
Even in our own courts of law, it would be a really unfair judge that will punish some and let others go free.

Please, read the definition below for forgive and answer the question, "Can God forgive sin or must He punish it?"

forgive
1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b: to grant relief from payment of
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon

It is a fine definition of forgiveness. It is maybe even an argument that was used in the Garden of Eden by the serpent. That is also an argument used by the humanists (and others) – How could a loving God not forgive sins? How could He sit and watch as some go to hell and not have mercy on them?

It seems to me that the justness of God is ignored. God is not only good, but also just .

In Islam, we have a hadith that goes something to the effect that there is no amount of good that I can do that will benefit Allah by even one iota such that Allah is obligated to reward me and that there is no amount of sin that I can do that will harm Allah in the least such that He could not forgive it

What puzzles me then is on what basis will people go to hell? It seems from what you say that some sins get punished, while others are forgiven. Do you know on what basis this is done?

A parable for you: If I were to pour either a gallon of the most expensive perfume or a 55 gallon drum of urine into San Francisco Bay will someone on the shore of Tokyo Bay be able to perceive this contamination of seawater even with the most precise instrumentation?

I can tell you this much, it has not disappeared into thin air, whatever our limitations are with measuring instruments. This is something that struck me - a lie can have some truth (a lot actually) and still qualify as a lie even if it has the smallest amount of "untruth". The truth is however pure. Your sea is contaminated and no longer pure.

 

[MustafaMc]

I understand that you say you rely completely on Allah’s mercy. Why are you then concerned about what weighs more than the other if it has no impact and has no relevance?

Allah will judge my beliefs as to whether I had ascribed partners with Him in worship. Shirk has degrees - an example of major shirk is saying that Allah has a son or an equal (e.g. "They disbelieve who say, 'Jesus is the Son of God' ") and minor shirk is performing acts of worship for show (e.g. Surah al-Maun). If my beliefs are good, then Allah will judge my performance of religious duties the first of which is 5 daily prayers, my life deeds since becoming a Muslim such as how I interacted with Allah's creation - foremostly of which is how charitable and merciful I was to my fellow human beings as compared to my sins. As I have shown earlier the good deeds of a Muslim carry much more weight, the heaviest of which is stating "There is no god except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah', than the bad deeds. Allah may forgive me or He may punish me in the Hellfire for a while if my life was judged to be sinful. An extremely critical element is our intentions in carrying out our good deeds - prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage, struggle against falsehood, etc. I am completely incapable of judging even my own intentions, so I remain at the Mercy of Allah. Since I don't have the view that I am certain my performance of religious duties and my life are "good enough", as you would say, "to earn my spot in Heaven", again, I yet remain at the Mercy of Allah on Judgment Day. When a Muslim dies, we pray that Allah will forgive him. We don't automatically assume that "he is in a better place now" as the Christians do who assume that he one of their loved ones has gone to Heaven.

In case of reborn Christians, good deeds are neither duties nor responsibilities. It is a natural result. If you do it as a duty or responsibility, you are still, what referred to in the Bible “In the flesh” and not living “in the spirit”.

On that Day you will stand with the supposed "Blood of Jesus", that I believe was never shed, and your life "in the spirit" and I will stand with my testimony, "La ilaha illallah, Muhammadan rasool'Allah" and my worship of Allah and my obedience to the example set by Muhammad "in the flesh". Allah will judge between the two of us. I am set in my decision and you seem to be set in yours. To you your religion and to me mine.

Does the Qur’an teach that?

The example I had in mind was the hadith of the adulterous woman who came to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) and confessed her sin and was seeking punishment for it. At first she was ignored, but after 3 times Muhammad (saaws) agreed to have her stoned. Afterwards, he said something to the effect of her now being in good standing before Allah. I am away from home and can't quote the hadith, per se.

Yes, it shows that if we return to the Father, He will accept us and be glad. You will notice that the son repented and realised that he does not deserve to be received as an heir or a son.Yes, it was to show up the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

...but the point is that neither of them were punished for their sin. For that matter the Prodigal Son was welcomed back with a feast of celebration.

That is not true. God forgives sin but as you indicated with the prodigal son, you need to repent and come to the Father not based on any of your deeds, but in humility and a broken spirit.

Yes, we Muslims repent of our sins "in humility and a broken spirit" we ask forgiveness and we strive to our utmost to avoid repeating those sins, but yet surely Allah is forgiving even if we err and occassionally "backslide" as long as we return to Him seeking His forgiveness.

We must however not create our own idea on what basis God forgives. We have seen that God punishes sin (also see your earlier remark). So if He is fair, then He cannot let some go unpunished and some punished. He is just. He has punished Jesus for sins that His people have committed. That is what was prophesied and that was what Jesus Himself said
Even in our own courts of law, it would be a really unfair judge that will punish some and let others go free.

It is you and Christianity who have made up "your own idea on what basis God forgives". You also err in applying humman justice system to Allah's Judgment Day.

It is a fine definition of forgiveness. It is maybe even an argument that was used in the Garden of Eden by the serpent. That is also an argument used by the humanists (and others) – How could a loving God not forgive sins? How could He sit and watch as some go to hell and not have mercy on them?

It seems to me that the justness of God is ignored. God is not only good, but also just .

We have the Qur'an and it tells us that those who believe in the Oneness of Allah and do good deeds are promised Gardens of Paradise. I can't concern myself with the destiny of others, such as yourself, who reject faith and deny the signs of Allah.

What puzzles me then is on what basis will people go to hell? It seems from what you say that some sins get punished, while others are forgiven. Do you know on what basis this is done?

I have shown on what criteria Islam teaches that mankind will be judged. I am not knowledgeable of how people will be judged who were unaware of the Islamic faith.

I can tell you this much, it has not disappeared into thin air, whatever our limitations are with measuring instruments. This is something that struck me - a lie can have some truth (a lot actually) and still qualify as a lie even if it has the smallest amount of "untruth". The truth is however pure. Your sea is contaminated and no longer pure.

My example was intended to show you that Allah is so Great that our good deeds and worship do not benefit Him and that our bad deeds and sins do not harm Him. My point being that Allah is willing and able to forgive the sins of the believers.

With that I am through with this discussion as I have patiently stated what I believe to be True and you adamantly insist on promoting what I believe are the lies and false promises of the Christian "Plan of Salvation". On that Day, we believe that Jesus (as) will wash his hands of the shirk that the Christians ascribe to him - the monstrous falsehood of him being the "Son of God".

 

[MustafaMc]

My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, please, correct any mistakes that I have made such that nothing but the Truth be written and any unintentional false statements, however small, be corrected.

 

[Grace Seeker]

One thing that is extremely surprising to me is the Christian insistence that God cannot forgive sin, but rather that the sinner must be punished either vicariously through the sacrifice of Jesus (as) or personally in the Hellfire if he rejects the free gift of salvation.

And you should be surprised by that, for God can and does forgive sin. The early church did not even give the same evangelical sermon that you hear today:

1. we have sinned and therefore have a debt to pay
2. we are unable to pay it ourselves
3. therefore God himself pays it for us cancelling the debt
4. one can only get the benefit of this debt cancellation though faith in Jesus

I'm probably going to tick-off a few of my more fundamentalist Christian friends here by admitting that this is a rather new message. (New, as in only 500 year old, instead of 2000.) But there was an older form to the message. The message of forgiveness and salvation in Jesus Christ is still fundamentally the same, but the points used to express it had a different focus to them.

In the original form of the message, the way the early church preached the message of salvation, the emphasis was not so much on the atonement of the cross (i.e., Good Friday), but Christ's vistory or sin and death (i.e., Easter Sunday).

1. Because of the reality of sin all die.
2. All who die go to the place of the death and are held in bondage by the devil.
3. In dying Christ as a human being also went to the place of the dead.
4. But the devil had no power over Christ, so Christ was able to burst free.
5. In bursting free Christ destroyed the power of the devil and killed death itself.
6. Now all who would follow Jesus are liberated from the consequences of sin and death to live a new life in him.

Both messages are of course true (well, at least from the point of view of the Christian scriptures, I know they are not true in the Qur'an), but I agree with you that if Christians think that it is all about God's inability to forgive sins without this payment, then we are ourselves limiting God.

The illustration of the Prodigal Son is very insightful. It does involve repentance, that is important, but the penalty of separation from the Father is entirely self imposed by the Son. As soon as he returns to the Father there is unqualified acceptance. He doesn't have to do any of those acts that he thought were going to be expected of him to earn a place in his Father's household. Grace is unconditional. Though it is important to understand that the nature of grace itself requires that it be both freely given and freely received. One can never earn or merit grace, for then it isn't grace, but wages.

In Islam, we have a hadith that goes something to the effect that there is no amount of good that I can do that will benefit Allah by even one iota such that Allah is obligated to reward me and that there is no amount of sin that I can do that will harm Allah in the least such that He could not forgive it.

I can concur with what is said here without reservation. To me it would mean that then it is totally up to Allah whether to accept me or not, my works mean nothing. The whole idea of putting them on a scale is meaningless in this light. And that is exactly what we in the church mean by the sovereignty of God.

 

[Grace Seeker]

We have the Qur'an and it tells us that those who believe in the Oneness of Allah and do good deeds are promised Gardens of Paradise.

It is constant use of the "AND" that leads Christians to say that Islam is a works based religion. It seems that belief is NOT enough. For both belief AND good deeds are required. The Christian still does good deeds, but these are offered as thanksgiving for the gift of forgiveness received and therefore seen as fruit of the new life one has in Christ subsequent to the experiencing of God's mercy. Whereas in Islam it seems that good deeds are some of the conditions required in ordered to received Allah's mercy. Does that not imply that Allah's mercy is restricted in some way by whether or not one has good deeds?

 

[Hamayun]

The reason that judgment day is a formality for the Christian is that we have already faced that judgment.

In the nicest I way I can put it way I wanted to say...

Thats handy

Because that means:

* Priest Paul Shanley gets away scott free for raping a 6 year old boy

* Priest Anthony Laurano gets away with sexually abusing a mentally retarded 30 year old man and an 8 year old boy

* Rev. Kelvin Iguabita gets away for abusing a 10-year-old boy

* Brother Jimmy Swaggart gets away with having regular sex with prostitutes
etc... etc...

All of them are forgiven. Why???

Because Jesus has already paid for their sins

Thats real handy :rollseyes

 

[Grace Seeker]

In the nicest I way I can put it way I wanted to say...

Thats handy

Because that means:

* Priest Paul Shanley gets away scott free for raping a 6 year old boy

* Priest Anthony Laurano gets away with sexually abusing a mentally retarded 30 year old man and an 8 year old boy

* Rev. Kelvin Iguabita gets away for abusing a 10-year-old boy

* Brother Jimmy Swaggart gets away with having regular sex with prostitutes
etc... etc...

All of them are forgiven. Why???

Because Jesus has already paid for their sins

Thats real handy :rollseyes

I don't take offense. Though, based on what I have read here, it seems that they would also get away with it if they were to convert to Islam and then do good works.

What you point to is reality. Even worse, I'm afraid that you only provided a small list of some of the sins that people who claim to be followers of Christ have committed. I suspect that is true among all religions, but common guilt doesn't absovle any of us. The reality of sin is something that Christianity needs to be able to address.

And one of the ways we do that is to remind one another that Christians who commit sins are still accountable for those sins. If I knowingly commitment a sin (be it of the type you mentioned above or anything else, big or small) and afterward live an unrepentant life, then one might question whether or not I was truly a follower of Jesus Chrsit. My unrepentant attitude, in that I refuse to acknowledge that what I did was a sin and seek to live differently, is to actually say to Jesus that I am going to live by my will rather than his. I am are giving evidence that I am in fact not truly a part of Jesus.

Further, one needs to understand that just saying, "I'm sorry." is not the same as repentance, or at least it is not the same as the biblical understanding of repentence. True biblical repentance requires an actual change in one's behavior. True repentance means returning to a life of submission to the will of God in one's life rather than following one's own will and desires.

 

[MustafaMc]

It is constant use of the "AND" that leads Christians to say that Islam is a works based religion. It seems that belief is NOT enough. For both belief AND good deeds are required. The Christian still does good deeds, but these are offered as thanksgiving for the gift of forgiveness received and therefore seen as fruit of the new life one has in Christ subsequent to the experiencing of God's mercy. Whereas in Islam it seems that good deeds are some of the conditions required in ordered to received Allah's mercy. Does that not imply that Allah's mercy is restricted in some way by whether or not one has good deeds?

First, I ask you to explain James 2:14-26 in the context of your questions above. Particularly James 2:24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There is a hadith that is very similar to Matthew 25:34-40 to illustrate the importance to a Muslim of his showing kindness and mercy to his fellow humans.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, would say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I was sick but you did not visit Me. He would say: O my Lord; how could I visit Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? Thereupon He would say: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine was sick but you did not visit him and were you not aware of this that if you had visited him, you would have found Me by him? O son of Adam, I asked food from you but you did not feed Me. He would say: My Lord, how could I feed Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? He said: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine asked food from you but you did not feed him, and were you not aware that if you had fed him you would have found him by My side? (The Lord would again say: ) O son of Adam, I asked drink from you but you did not provide Me. He would say: My Lord, how could I provide Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? Thereupon He would say: Such and such of servant of Mine asked you for a drink but you did not provide him, and had you provided him drink you would have found him near Me. (Muslim Book 32, Hadith 6232)

There is another hadith of a prostitute being forgiven for a kind deed of giving water to a thirst dog.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that." (Bukhari Book 54, Hadith 538)

These are all well and good you might say as they fall along the lines of the parable about the Good Samaritan, but they are not "works" in the strict sense of religious duties. We Muslims have a responsibility or obligation to perform certain religious duties and if you insist upon seeing that we are "earning" our salvation then I can't convince you otherwise, just like you can never convince me that Jesus (as) was God incarnate.

We perform salah, fast, and give charity because we are Muslims, but we are not Muslims simply because we perform salah, fast, and give charity. We do those things because we first believe in One God (Allah) and we believe that Allah chose Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as a Messenger to reveal His final message to mankind which is manifest in the Qur'an and in the example of how Muhammad (saaws) lived. We believe that we are being obedient to Allah by our following the example or Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws). An illustrative example would be of a Christian, who might fast during Ramadan or pray in the manner of Muslims, would not be in the same position before Allah as a Muslim, because the Christian would not have the "qualifying belief" of "la ilah illallah, Muhammadan rasool'Allah". Their intentions would definitely be different.

We humans were created but to worship Allah and this life is indeed a test. For Muslims, since we are still taking our life test, our test papers are by default yet to be graded; therefore, we don't know if we have passed or failed. For Christians, Jesus (as) already took their test (so they claim) for them and he passed with flying colors; therefore, they "know" they have already passed because they have accepted his answers (blood sacrifice) as their own.

 

[fromgenesis]

With that I am through with this discussion as I have patiently stated what I believe to be True and you adamantly insist on promoting what I believe are the lies and false promises of the Christian "Plan of Salvation". On that Day, we believe that Jesus (as) will wash his hands of the shirk that the Christians ascribe to him - the monstrous falsehood of him being the "Son of God".

I thank you for your time and patience. When you make a statement of falsehood of the “plan of salvation” you ignore God’s , the prophets and Jesus’ own words. It is impossible that Jesus will go back on His own words and hence I have confidence that all of His elect will receive salvation.
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Psa 23:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

 

[Hamayun]

I don't take offense. Though, based on what I have read here, it seems that they would also get away with it if they were to convert to Islam and then do good works.

What you point to is reality. Even worse, I'm afraid that you only provided a small list of some of the sins that people who claim to be followers of Christ have committed. I suspect that is true among all religions, but common guilt doesn't absovle any of us. The reality of sin is something that Christianity needs to be able to address.

And one of the ways we do that is to remind one another that Christians who commit sins are still accountable for those sins. If I knowingly commitment a sin (be it of the type you mentioned above or anything else, big or small) and afterward live an unrepentant life, then one might question whether or not I was truly a follower of Jesus Chrsit. My unrepentant attitude, in that I refuse to acknowledge that what I did was a sin and seek to live differently, is to actually say to Jesus that I am going to live by my will rather than his. I am are giving evidence that I am in fact not truly a part of Jesus.

Further, one needs to understand that just saying, "I'm sorry." is not the same as repentance, or at least it is not the same as the biblical understanding of repentence. True biblical repentance requires an actual change in one's behavior. True repentance means returning to a life of submission to the will of God in one's life rather than following one's own will and desires.

Reading the above post I get the impression that:

a) If Priests and holy men like Brother Swaggart who dedicated their life to Christ can sin then the theory of "Essence of God within you that stops you from sinning" has failed. If God was inside them then surely he would have prevented them from committing sin?

b) Even if a Christian sins, he might be forgiven only if he sincerely repents/asks forgiveness (which is what we Muslims also believe by the way).

 

[The Khan]

I don't take offense. Though, based on what I have read here, it seems that they would also get away with it if they were to convert to Islam and then do good works.

Only upon conversion, if the conversion is genuine. After that, any sins committed can be omitted by performing good deeds. What's wrong with that?

In Christianity, mortal men, priests like you, sir, forgive people for their sins. Now, that means, if I were Christian and committed monstrous sins, and went from one priest to another, my sins would technically be forgiven.

 

[Grace Seeker]

First, I ask you to explain James 2:14-26 in the context of your questions above. Particularly James 2:24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

As I have said many times, works are the fruit of faith. The presence of good works is evidence that one's faith is real. So, a man without works is also a man who only gives lipservice to his faith; such faith is dead and worthless. And while good deeds done apart from genuine faith may get you a pat on the back from your friends, they have absolutely no merit before God. Read the verse in the context of all of James 2 and you see how they connect together. But it remains that we are saved through faith, by God's grace.

Now, I have answered your question. But I wouldn't think a Muslim's ability to speak about Islam would be conditioned on a Christians ability or lack thereof to speak about Christianity. Can you explain the "AND" in your "believe AND do good deeds" statement. You have mentioned it more than once. Are both required in order to gain salvation in Islam? Or like I just expressed, does one simply flow from the other as an expression of that salvation (of that faith relationship), as they do in Christianity? If I read your post properly above, it seems that it might be closer to the latter instance, but I seek your correction on this if I have errored.

I think part of the difference might be that your salvation is not yet completed. So, you must work our your faith as an expression of "earning" salvation, while we work it out as an expression of having "received" salvation.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Only upon conversion, if the conversion is genuine. After that, any sins committed can be omitted by performing good deeds. What's wrong with that?

In Christianity, mortal men, priests like you, sir, forgive people for their sins. Now, that means, if I were Christian and committed monstrous sins, and went from one priest to another, my sins would technically be forgiven.

I don't forgiven anyone their sins. Christ does that, not me.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Reading the above post I get the impression that:

a) If Priests and holy men like Brother Swaggart who dedicated their life to Christ can sin then the theory of "Essence of God within you that stops you from sinning" has failed. If God was inside them then surely he would have prevented them from committing sin?

Of course they can sin. Any one of us can still sin, and sadly many of us, myself included, still do. Here is what Paul said about that wrestling match between desiring to serve God and desiring to please one's own natural desires:

Romans 7

15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Sounds exactly like what you just said, doesn't it? "The theory of 'Essence of God' within you that stops you from sinning has failed." And indeed when we try to live as a Christian on our own power we do stumble and fail. That is exactly why we need the Spirit's presence in our lives. Only when we truly submit to the spirit's direction will we find the power to push the natural man off the throne and let God rule. That is why Paul goes on to contrast this natural life with the Spirit-filled life:

Romans 8

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you....

b) Even if a Christian sins, he might be forgiven only if he sincerely repents/asks forgiveness (which is what we Muslims also believe by the way).

I am assuming you are talking about one who knowingly commits a sin; and if so, then YES.

There are sadly sins that we commit that we are also oblivious to. Even Spirit-filled people may simply not be listening well to God's guidance and as a result may sin, because God's direction always comes as guidance, not as some sort of robot-control manipulating on our lives leaving us devoid of free will. (Example: I personally think slavery is and has always been a sin, yet we see it historically practiced by many Christians, even some of the "saints" mentioned in the Bible.) In these circumstances, should we become more clear of God's will, we will as you say need to repent of those sins we have been committing before we realized they were a sin. But if we never realize that they were a sin, what then? For the person whose life is truly trying to be what God calls us to be, even though he still falls short of that, God's grace is sufficient to cover a multitude of sins.

And again for the circumstances you described in situation A above, one wonders if that person is truly even seeking to conform to God's will in his/her life. If so, then the person needs to let God be in control and submit. A life of rebellion is a life outside of the will of God and is not truly representative of the life of a follower of Christ.

 

[Hamayun]

Regardless of my opinion on the matter I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my questions. Thanks

Peace

 

[MustafaMc]

As I have said many times, works are the fruit of faith. The presence of good works is evidence that one's faith is real. So, a man without works is also a man who only gives lipservice to his faith; such faith is dead and worthless. And while good deeds done apart from genuine faith may get you a pat on the back from your friends, they have absolutely no merit before God. Read the verse in the context of all of James 2 and you see how they connect together. But it remains that we are saved through faith, by God's grace.

I will quote the entire passage that I indicated above to note the context for the verse I had quoted. You will note a consistent emphasis on deeds or works as a demonstration of faith for example verse 18 below. You will also note that the concept of "we are saved through faith, by God's grace" is absent from the entire Book of James. I agree that faith is critical as I demonstrated by the example of a Christian performing "Islamic deeds of worship" have (to quote you) "absolutely no merit before God" because there is a complete absence of the Islamic faith.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Now, I have answered your question. But I wouldn't think a Muslim's ability to speak about Islam would be conditioned on a Christians ability or lack thereof to speak about Christianity.

Actually what you did is you dodged the question and you put a Pauline spin and twist on the scripture, but it is your scripture so you can do with it what you want.

Can you explain the "AND" in your "believe AND do good deeds" statement. You have mentioned it more than once. Are both required in order to gain salvation in Islam? Or like I just expressed, does one simply flow from the other as an expression of that salvation (of that faith relationship), as they do in Christianity? If I read your post properly above, it seems that it might be closer to the latter instance, but I seek your correction on this if I have errored.

In a sense, yes, the salah, fasting and charity flow as a result of acknowledging Allah as the only God and Muhammad as His Messenger. If one acknowledges Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah, then obedience to him is obedience to Allah and LIKEWISE disobedience to Muhammad is disobedience to Allah. So as a Muslim I CHOOSE to strive to follow the example of Muhammad because I believe that it is better for me to be obedient to Allah in addition to believing in Him without associates, father, mother, son or daughter. Quoting verse 19 above You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. is proof from the Bible that faith alone is insufficient for salvation according to James.

I think part of the difference might be that your salvation is not yet completed. So, you must work our your faith as an expression of "earning" salvation, while we work it out as an expression of having "received" salvation.

No, it is not a matter of "working on my faith" as I "earn my salvation". The example I gave above of taking a test illustrates perfectly the difference between Islam and Christianity regarding salvation. Again we were created for the purpose of worshiping Allah, if I neglect that worship by being disobedient then I am neglient of my duties. My Life Book will remain open until I draw my last breath and Allah knows what will be my state of belief and my balance of deeds. I pray that I die not but as a Muslim and that Allah will be Merciful to me and other Muslims on that Day. As I stand before Allah, I repent of ever saying and believing, or implying that I believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for my sins, Astaghfir'Allah.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I will quote the entire passage that I indicated above to note the context for the verse I had quoted. You will note a consistent emphasis on deeds or works as a demonstration of faith

Yes!! That's it exactly. It is a demonstration of faith. Deeds don't subsitute for faith or replace faith or in any way invalidate faith. They demonstate the presence of faith. Thus faith without works is dead. That's about as James 2 as one can get.

You will also note that the concept of "we are saved through faith, by God's grace" is absent from the entire Book of James.

Indeed it is. But it is a part of the New Testament. And one must interpret Paul in light of James and James in light of Paul. James 2 does not cancel out Ephesians 2, nor vice versa (though Luther would have been glad to have never seen James, but that's another story).

I agree that faith is critical as I demonstrated by the example of a Christian performing "Islamic deeds of worship" have (to quote you) "absolutely no merit before God" because there is a complete absence of the Islamic faith.

Yeah, and I got that. That is why I suggested that perhaps in some ways we are saying the same thing. We both recognize:

that faith and deeds are equally important for those who are believers.
that true believes will have deeds.
that unbelievers with deeds are still unbelievers.
that one can do all of manner of deeds, but trusting in deeds is not the same as trusting in God/Allah.
that ultimately it is God/Allah who actually saves you, not your deeds.

Quoting verse 19 above You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. is proof from the Bible that faith alone is insufficient for salvation according to James.

I wholly concur. Many a time I have made the point that there is a difference between believing about and believing in. Even the devil believes everything there is to believe about God, but the devil does not believe in God. There is a significant difference. Believing in Jesus implies being in some sort of trust relationship, and any sort of relationship is going to be expressed in deeds that are the fruit of that faith.

No, it is not a matter of "working on my faith" as I "earn my salvation". The example I gave above of taking a test illustrates perfectly the difference between Islam and Christianity regarding salvation.

I guess I missed that illustration, and was unable to locate it as I search back through the thread, so I am sorry, but I am unable to reflect on it.

 

[MustafaMc]

That is why I suggested that perhaps in some ways we are saying the same thing. We both recognize:

that faith and deeds are equally important for those who are believers.
that true believes will have deeds.
that unbelievers with deeds are still unbelievers.
that one can do all of manner of deeds, but trusting in deeds is not the same as trusting in God/Allah.
that ultimately it is God/Allah who actually saves you, not your deeds.

Personally, I agree with you and it is consistent with my understanding of Islam. Except that Allah will judge our deeds as part of our "personal judgment" and you left out an important element of our intentions.

I whole concur. Many a time I have made the point that there is a difference between believing about and believing in. Even the devil believes everything there is to believe about God, but the devil does not believe in God. There is a significant difference. Believing in Jesus implies being in some sort of trust relationship, and any sort of relationship is going to be expressed in deeds that are the fruit of that faith.

Actually, this makes an important point. In Islam, Shaytan (a jinn) was commanded along with the angels to prostrate before Adam, but he refused to obey Allah out of pride as he felt that he was better than Adam. Of course Shaytan believed in Allah, but he refused to obey Him. Hence the importance of obedience in Islam as a manifestation of our faith.

I guess I missed that illustration, and was unable to locate it as I search back through the thread, so I am sorry, but I am unable to reflect on it.

It was the last paragraph in a post above:

We humans were created but to worship Allah and this life is indeed a test. For Muslims, since we are still taking our life test, our test papers are by default yet to be graded; therefore, we don't know if we have passed or failed. For Christians, Jesus (as) already took their test (so they claim) for them and he passed with flying colors; therefore, they "know" they have already passed because they have accepted his answers (blood sacrifice) as their own.

 

[Grace Seeker]

We humans were created but to worship Allah and this life is indeed a test. For Muslims, since we are still taking our life test, our test papers are by default yet to be graded; therefore, we don't know if we have passed or failed. For Christians, Jesus (as) already took their test (so they claim) for them and he passed with flying colors; therefore, they "know" they have already passed because they have accepted his answers (blood sacrifice) as their own.

OK. This is why I suggested the difference between a present and a future understanding of salvation for Christians and Muslim, respectively.