Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

[Keltoi]

On this we are in full agreement.If this is the Truth, then convince me, as ShalomAll stated, that "Jesus is God" with evidence and proof that is beyond a shadow of doubt.

You might as well ask for evidence of God with proof that is beyond a shadow of a doubt. Faith is faith. You can't prove to me that Muhammed was the last prophet and recieved a book from an angel either. That is faith.

 

[MustafaMc]

You might as well ask for evidence of God with proof that is beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I look around me and with my scientific knowledge, I see evidence of a Creator. Since no one has shown me how all of this could happen by random chance, I am left with my faith that a Divine Supernatural Being that we know of as the One God, or Allah was the Designer, the Creator and the Sustainer of all that exists.

Faith is faith. You can't prove to me that Muhammed was the last prophet and recieved a book from an angel either. That is faith.

Yes, it is about all faith, but I have put forth logical arguments that the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus) are distinct and separate entities. The Divinity of Jesus is perhaps the most critical difference between Islam and Christianity, but I have not read a good argument to support the statement that "Jesus is God". This is such an astounding statement that there should be no room for doubt and obtuse arguments such as "My Father and I are One" just doesn't cut it for me.

 

[Keltoi]

I look around me and with my scientific knowledge, I see evidence of a Creator. Since no one has shown me how all of this could happen by random chance, I am left with my faith that a Divine Supernatural Being that we know of as the One God, or Allah was the Designer, the Creator and the Sustainer of all that exists.

Yes, we both have faith in a Creator and a Divine Being. However, that was a statement of faith, not evidence. You have your beliefs and arguments as to why there must be a God, but "proof" isn't there. Most people of faith have come to terms with the lack of proof.

Yes, it is about all faith, but I have put forth logical arguments that the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus) are distinct and separate entities. The Divinity of Jesus is perhaps the most critical difference between Islam and Christianity, but I have not read a good argument to support the statement that "Jesus is God". This is such an astounding statement that there should be no room for doubt and obtuse arguments such as "My Father and I are One" just doesn't cut it for me.

Having read the New Testament as a whole, there is no doubt in my mind what Christ was stating in regards to Himself. It is much more than one sentence. It would have been much easier for all of us if Christ would have written a lengthy treatise on His divinity which included a long list of "frequently asked questions". Instead we are left with a promise of salvation through Christ.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes, we both have faith in a Creator and a Divine Being. However, that was a statement of faith, not evidence. You have your beliefs and arguments as to why there must be a God, but "proof" isn't there. Most people of faith have come to terms with the lack of proof.

You are right - to a point - but I disagree with you that I still have evidence of a Creator in the creation. As a human being, I have a certain amount of intellectual ability by which I can make logical conclusions. If I happen to come upon a portrait such as the Mona Lisa in a desert, two questions come to mind: "Who is the person on the canvas?" and "Who painted the picture?" If I come upon a modern abstract painting, I would be less inclined to come up with the same questions, but more likely I would say, "I wonder if someone painted this or if it is some random assemblage of colors." My knowledge of DNA and molecular biology is equivalent to coming upon an intricate painting that points to a Creator.

Having read the New Testament as a whole, there is no doubt in my mind what Christ was stating in regards to Himself. It is much more than one sentence. It would have been much easier for all of us if Christ would have written a lengthy treatise on His divinity which included a long list of "frequently asked questions". Instead we are left with a promise of salvation through Christ.

But still the statement is so profound that there should be undeniable evidence for a logical conclusion as I indicated above. I am rereading the 4 gospels to see how many statements support and how many refute the claim that "Jesus is God". Last night I came upon the charges against Jesus by which his death was pursued, by Herod when he was a child in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:2), by Pilate at his trial (Matthew 27:11) and on the inscription above the cross (Matthew 27:37). The charge was not that Jesus was God or the Son of God, but rather that he was the "King of the Jews". It is interesting that this is exactly what the Jews were expecting in the Messiah. From their scriptures, they were not expecting and still do not expect for God to become flesh and to die a horrible death as the ultimate sacrifice to save them from their sins.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus is God!

So, you just definitively answered the question. Christians do worship the human being Jesus who was born of Mary as only God should be worshiped.

When God comes as a human being then it is appropriate to worship this particular human being for we are still worshipping the God who calls us to worship him and only him.

 

[Grace Seeker]

jesus was a prophet as all prophets and a messenger of god and chrsitians went wrong when they focus on jesus and put him at the same level as god who created him and all humans.if they worshipped god in the right way why god would have sent another prophet then ?

I believe that you have used some erroneous facts to reach your conclusions, which I believe renders them in error as well.

See, Christian think that others have it wrong when they say that Jesus was created by God, rather than being God himself.

Also, we continue to believe that God continues to give people the gift of prophecy, even to this day, though the canon of God's written Word is closed with the book of Revelation. Why? To speak forth on God's behalf for whatever purpose that God might wish.

You make a good point in that only Muslims respect Prophet 'Isa (as) as he should be respected.

Muslims respect him as a most honored Prophet, Messenger, and Servant of the One God.

And see, I would understand this to be an insult, for it makes out of Jesus than who he truly is. Every time you say this it strikes me as much to the quick, perhaps even more, than anything that Christians might have ever said about Muhammad (pbuh) or the Qur'an, for honor as they are among Muslim, at least we are not attacking God if we don't honor them as you do. To say that Jesus is only a prophet is an assault on the very gift of himself that God has made in order to effect our salvation.

To say only that Jesus is a prophet and no more, I believe the proper response to such a statement is Astaghfirullah.

 

[MustafaMc]

And see, I would understand this to be an insult, for it makes out of Jesus than who he truly is. Every time you say this it strikes me as much to the quick, perhaps even more, than anything that Christians might have ever said about Muhammad (pbuh) or the Qur'an, for honor as they are among Muslim, at least we are not attacking God if we don't honor them as you do. To say that Jesus is only a prophet is an assault on the very gift of himself that God has made in order to effect our salvation.

To say only that Jesus is a prophet and no more, I believe the proper response to such a statement is Astaghfirullah.

Notice that I did not call him a "third string basketball player who was playing so poorly that it was like he was playing for the other team" but rather "a most honored Prophet, Messenger, and Servant of the One God." Now you tell me is the phrase in blue disrespectful or is the one in red? How is the phrase in blue any different from, "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His SERVANT Jesus." (Acts3:13) or "Jesus said to them, 'A PROPHET is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.' (Matt 13:57)"?

There is no question that you worship Jesus as God, but I believe that this is indeed ascribing partners to the One God and that it is "a monstrous falsehood, that the very Heavens might crack, the earth might cleave asunder and the mountains might crumble to pieces." (Qur'an 19:89-90)

 

[mkh4JC]

From their scriptures ,they were not expecting and still do not expect for God to become flesh and to die a horrible death as the ultimate sacrifice to save them from their sins.

Well, what about Isaiah 53 taken from the Old Testament?

'Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisment of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgement: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.'

Isaiah 53: 1-12

This was prophesied in the Jewish Bible. But to come back to this point:

From their scriptures, they were not expecting and still do not expect for God to become flesh and to die a horrible death as the ultimate sacrifice to save them from their sins.

And that's exactly what happens when you accept Christ, he saves you from your sins. As Jesus himself stated in the Gospel of John: 'I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.' John 8: 24.

 

[MustafaMc]

To say only that Jesus is a prophet and no more, I believe the proper response to such a statement is Astaghfirullah.

Actually, astaghfir'Allah means "forgive me, Allah" and for that to be effective one must first repent of the deed. I do not repent of calling Jesus (as) an honored Prophet, Messenger and Servant of Allah. If I have spoken ill of the Son of Man (as Jesus often referred to himself), I believe that it will be forgiven of me for "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him" Matthew 12:32. However, I have said no more than what the NT has said about Jesus and I believe that I have been very respectful towards him.

 

[MustafaMc]

Well, what about Isaiah 53 taken from the Old Testament?

...but the Jews were and still are looking for a "King of the Jews" not a savior from their sins.

And that's exactly what happens when you accept Christ, he saves you from your sins. As Jesus himself stated in the Gospel of John: 'I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.' John 8: 24.

It is interesting that Jesus did not provide a straight forward answer to the question "Who are you?" (John 8:25) in reference to "I am he". Would not this have been the opportune time for him to say, "I am God"? Rather he said "I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me" and "I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." These quotes point to the Father as God and they illustrate the subservient role of Jesus to God.

 

[mkh4JC]

...but the Jews were and still are looking for a "King of the Jews" not a savior from their sins.

And Jesus will serve in that role after the second coming. The first time he came he had to die, to save man from his sins. The second time he comes, it will be to establish the kingdom of God, to rule the world with an iron fist.

It is interesting that Jesus did not provide a straight forward answer to the question "Who are you?" (John 8:25) in reference to "I am he". Would not this have been the opportune time for him to say, "I am God"?

Before I answer let me put this scenario first before you. If a man walked up to you and said, 'I am God, worship me,' would you believe him? And Jesus did make it known who he was.

'Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.' John 9: 35-38.

Now let's look Rather he said "I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me" and "I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." These quotes point to the Father as God and they illustrate the subservient role of Jesus to God.

Well, that's only because while Christ was here in a human body he was serving to model the perfect example for all of mankind. No one before Christ, or since, has been capable of living that kind of lifestyle, no, not even the Christian who walks in his footsteps.

 

[MustafaMc]

Before I answer let me put this scenario first before you. If a man walked up to you and said, 'I am God, worship me,' would you believe him?

No, Allah does not require sustenance from His Creation, nor does He need to relieve Himself of bodily waste, nor does He get tired or need to sleep.

'Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.' John 9: 35-38.

It is interesting that the KJ version has "Son of God" in this passage, but both the NIV and the NAS versions have "Son of Man". Which is the misinterpretation?

When the formerly blind man was asked by the Pharisees about the person from whom he had received his sight, the man replied, "He is a prophet." (John 9:17) There was question as to whether this man (Jesus) who healed the blind man was a sinner or a righteous man, the man replied, "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him." (John 9:31) This man acknowledged that his healing came from God and affirmed that Jesus was "God-fearing and does His will", to which I am in full agreement.

 

[mkh4JC]

It is interesting that the KJ version has "Son of God" in this passage, but both the NIV and the NAS versions have "Son of Man". Which is the misinterpretation?

Well, Jesus is both the Son of Man and Son of God simultaneously. I'm still a baby in Christ, so I had to do a little digging, and discovered that the title "Son of Man" referes to Jesus as being the Messiah, and his relationship to mankind in his incarnate state. You can also see that in the translations you provided that the man worshipped Jesus afterwards, so the Jews of the day understood what Son of Man meant.

But there are other passages which affirms that Jesus is the Son of God, even in the Old Testament.

'The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Psalms 110: 1

Which Jesus referenced to the Pharisees here:

'Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.'

Matthew 22: 42-46.

 

[Grace Seeker]

However, I have said no more than what the NT has said about Jesus.

No, you have not said any more about Jesus than what the NT says, you have said less, much less, and that is why it is insulting.

We share a phrase: "God is great!!"

Would it not be insulting to only say, "God is OK, and that's all I'm going to say."? That's what it is to insist on Jesus being a prophet, but to say no more than that.

Jesus is prophet, priest, and king. He is Lord and Savior. He is the Son of God. He is the Holy One, God incarnate dwelling among us. He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. He is the resurrection and the life. He is the great I AM.

You may not agree with all of this, but to my ears to limit him to prophethood alone is to say much less than what is true, and to imply there is no more to be said is to insult who he really is.

 

[Grace Seeker]

'Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.' John 9: 35-38.

It is interesting that the KJ version has "Son of God" in this passage, but both the NIV and the NAS versions have "Son of Man". Which is the misinterpretation?

Neither.

I know you are aware that because the originals of the NT are lost, that we are dependent on analyzing extant copies using the science of textual criticism for determining what the original text was. This is in some ways similar to the process for authenticating a hadith. That is certain texts are considered more reliable, just like certain people who narrate the hadith are more reliable.

In the case of this passage, the KJV depended on a later dated Greek text that said

ηκουσεν ο ιησους οτι εξεβαλον αυτον εξω και ευρων αυτον ειπεν αυτω συ πιστευεις εις τον υιον του θεου

Which is properly translated "the son of God" (or the God).

On the other hand, the NIV (and pretty much all modern translations) depends on an older Greek text that says

ηκουσεν ιησους οτι εξεβαλον αυτον εξω και ευρων αυτον ειπεν συ πιστευεις εις τον υιον του ανθρωπου

Which is properly translated "the son of man" (or the man).

Both forms are found in a number of different copies, but according to Bruce Metzger, in writing the textual commentary on the passage in the United Bible Societies' edition of the Greek New Testament, the text used by the NIV for this passage is more reliable:

the external support for anthropou (man) is so weighty, and the improbability of theo (God) being altered to anthropou is so great, the the Committee regarded the reading adopted for the text [τον υιον του ανθρωπου, "the son of man"] as virtually certain.

 

[MustafaMc]

No, you have not said any more about Jesus than what the NT says, you have said less, much less, and that is why it is insulting.

...

You may not agree with all of this, but to my ears to limit him to prophethood alone is to say much less than what is true, and to imply there is no more to be said is to insult who he really is.

To my knowledge all that I have said on LI regarding Prophet 'Isa (as) is respectfully consistent with the Qur'an and with the teachings of Islam.

Qur'an 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa son of Maryam, Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

Islam Beliefs and Teachings, p. 149, "He ('Isa) asked the people to obey Allah alone but some of his followers made fantasies about him and they considered him a part of Allah, even a son of Allah (5:116-117). Muslims believe in 'Isa as a prophet and a servant of Allah (43:59). They do not believe that he is the son of Allah. Allah does not have a son or daughter. He is not like any of the creatures He has created. There is none like Him. Allah is One and Indivisible. There is no idea of a Trinity in Islam (4:171). Trinity is clear partnership (Shirk). Muslims believe it is a big sin to say anyone is the son of Allah (5:17, 19:35)."

If you are offended when I state the unequivocal Truth according to Islam regarding a fundamental belief of our religion, then you should ask yourself why you are participating on an Islamic forum of discussion. Given your persistent promoting of Christian beliefs and your blatant attacks on Prophet Muhammad (saaws), one is left with the conclusion that you are hostile to Islam and that you would like to convert Muslims to Christianity - much along the lines of Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggert, David Jeremiah and Franklin Graham. My reply to you is, "Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you." Qur'an 4:44-45.

 

[Grace Seeker]

you should ask yourself why you are participating on an Islamic forum of discussion.

Why do you think? I have answered this specific question many times before.

 

[Follower]

LOL! Your math is wrong it is 1x1x1=3

'Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God' Jesus was calling on the man to understand the full identity of Jesus.

Muslims understand the Unity of Allah. We believe also in the Unity of GOD, that He is One. In the Christians case we see that GOD has manifest Himself to man in different ways at different times.

The concept of the Trinity is in the Bible- I don't care for the term I think it should have been Triunity. LOL!!

Allahs Word-> Mohammad->scribes->Quran

God's Word, Jesus, message of the New Testament->disiples [scribes]->New Testament

 

[Follower]

I should have added in that post that I was putting my 2 cents worth in from the first page!! Maybe I should skip trying to read the whole thing and just join in on the last page?!?

 

[Ali_Cena]

lol follower you should read the other pages as you might have arguments that have already been solved or argued agaist.