Women Clergy?

[AntiKarateKid]

Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching? Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.

Holy shamolie. THere is a strange amount of hostility here from my brothers and sisters.


Listen, ATR, if you want a full complete answer, you should go talk to real life scholars and such. It is quite out of character for these members of the forum to have spoke angrily at you but please remember, NOONE here is a scholar and we are taking our best guesses. Here are some hadiths that you may want to read. From my limited knowlege, I think women are encouraged to lead women only congregations. Mixed gender oens should be lead by men because many men cant help themselves when looking at a girl anywhere.

ALso, just because the church allows somehting or the synagogues allow somehting does not mean it is OK. You seme to be making that error. Many of my friends talk about checking out girls ALL THE TIME at church and noone thinks it is wrong.

Women are more respected in Islam thna anywhere else. Our laws are ther eot make sure that they are never treated as objects by men. Our first priority is their dignity. So please seek a scholar out in real life and remember that laws are there for a reason, not just the clergy ones you may not understand but also the ones granted women protection and rights not foudn anywhere else.

The hadith of `A’ishah and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them). `Abdur-Raziq (5086), Ad-Daraqutni (1/404) and Al-Bayhaqi (3/131) reported from the narration of Abu Hazim Maysarah ibn Habib from Ra’itah Al-Hanafiyyah from `A’ishah that she led women in Prayer and stood among them in an obligatory Prayer. Moreover, Ibn Abi Shaybah (2/89) reported from the chain of narrators of Ibn Abi Layla from `Ata’ that `A’ishah used to say the Adhan, the Iqamah, and lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row. Al-Hakim also reported the same hadith from the chain of narrators of Layth Ibn Abi Sulaim from `Ata’, and the wording of the hadith mentioned here is Al-Hakim’s.

Furthermore, Ash-Shafi`i (315), Ibn Abi Shaybah (88/2) and `Abdur-Raziq (5082) reported from two chains of narrators that report the narration of `Ammar Ad-Dahni in which he stated that a woman from his tribe named Hujayrah narrated that Umm Salamh used to lead women in Prayer while standing among them in the same row.

The wording of `Abdur-Raziq for the same hadith is as follows: “Umm Salamah led us (women) in the `Asr Prayer and stood among us (in the same row).”

 

[AntiKarateKid]

One reason is because we have no ordained clergy. Male or female.


The Imam is simply the person who leads us in prayer. It would be an insult to a woman to have her bow in prostration in front of a man. So women do not lead men in prayer, but there are Mosques that are all female, and women do often lead the prayers in front of other women.

As far as giving sermons. women often are the instructors at a mosque.

Nice response! You said it better than I did in a few paragraphs.
Quick and painless answer huh? :giggling:

 

[AntiKarateKid]

(if you ever were a Muslim, which I do not believe)I am more than willing to take the credit if you leave, for I will plead with Allah that I was just shedding dead weight and millstone from around our collective neck!

Shame on your attitude brother.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

you were born and raised full of crap.. see I can say this with conviction because I have no such restriction in the Quran as--1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ...


you should go become a full fledged crapper or whatever it is you desire to be and stop bugging everyone about it!

cheerio

Honestly, you may know how to argue agaunst the Bible, but you sure as heck don't know how to argue against a human being and come off acting like a normal one.

Please respect visitors sister. Would the Prophet (pbuh) ever have responded like that? :-[

 

[جوري]

Honestly, you may know how to argue agaunst the Bible, but you sure as heck don't know how to argue against a human being and come off acting like a normal one.

Please respect visitors sister. Would the Prophet (pbuh) ever have responded like that? :-[

it depends on the visitor =)

being muslim doesn't = to being gullible!

How do you think the Prophet would advise a Muslim and handle a hypocrite, is the better question here---
Don't nullify an act you deem abhorrent by committing one yourself..

 

[doorster]

Shame on your attitude brother.

Thank you but I think I'd rather take lessons about survival from wildebeest than you, each time some one real apostated I used to say to my dad we lost another one boo hoo hoo, he showed me a film about migrating wildebeest, and his reply was that with every perceived loss we become healthier and purer, they will be a burden on there new community freeing us to pursue cause of Allah for we do not have to suffer from their corrupting influence any more!

 

[جوري]

that is to say this fellow is a 'potential apostate.'..
the net does offer folks anonymity and most abuse it.. Evangelists do get creative when desperate and in fact the topics tackled are exactly the sort revivalists mis-quote and misuse.. No one learns religion from the web.. get real.. When I had interest in learning Zoroastrianism I purchased a book!..
an easy caveat on how to distinguish a fraudsters in the very least how much better versed in christianity than Islam --he doesn't even know Islam's basic tenets, I reference you to Br. Abd-al Latif's post where he asked him just that with a surrprise no reply.. further, he doesn't read the answers posted him and repeats the same questions... so what is the point? just spamming the forum?

you want to handle this one antiK-kid.. by all means

 

[UmmSqueakster]

I find it funny that on two threads I've given you thoughtful, and you ignore those in favor of going after what you disagree with, without so much as a comment to me.

The only thing women cannot do "clerically" is give the friday sermon and lead the prayer. Here in america, women run mosques. They teach classes. They study theology. And they do all this with the blessings of traditional religious leadership firmly grounded in the Qur'an, Sunnah and 1400 years of traditions of our scholars.


The issue of women leadership in both christianity and judaism is not as cut and dry as you think. I used to be lutheran. There are 3 main lutheran denominations here in the US. 2 out of the 3 do not allow women to be ordained. None of the three allow practicing homosexuals to be ordained. The anglican church is currently in the midst of a threatened schism because many elements of the church to not agree with what their more liberal counterparts in the UK and america are doing.

 

[The Khan]

But you have not answered my question. Are Muslim men less capable of controlling themselves than nonMuslim. I have yet to hear anyone who goes against Christian clergy complain they cannot pay attention because of the women priests during services. In fact it seems in many many things Muslim men are less able to control themselves. Even the Catholics do not want women priests not because they distract men but because Jesus was male!

Firstly, as brother woodrow said, the role of the Imam is simply to lead people in prayer. There's no ban in any school of thought (except hanbali, I think, please correct me if i'm wrong) for women leading jamaat, it's just highly discouraged. Personally, I have no qualms with it, provided the woman leading the jamaat is standing behind the men. However, when a woman is bowing in prostration and a man is behind her, he can glimpse the area of her private parts. Generally, it's man's nature to look at women and women's nature to like being looked at by men. Now, this is supposed to be restricted between a husband and wife. Imagine staring at a woman's behind while you're praying to your Lord... what a terrible sin that is!

I really like the concept of women-only mosques. It's ingenious.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Thank you but I think I'd rather take lessons about survival from wildebeest than you, each time some one real apostated I used to say to my dad we lost another one boo hoo hoo, he showed me a film about migrating wildebeest, and his reply was that with every perceived loss we become healthier and purer, they will be a burden on there new community freeing us to pursue cause of Allah for we do not have to suffer from their corrupting influence any more!

Holy Quran 3:159
Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.


How could you say she is a loss already? Are you aware of the future? THe girl has questions, I had questions too when I was exploring Islam. I kept my faith and found the answers. THis girl still needs that boost and reassurance from the Islamic community she needs to join again and you ALREADY count her as a PERMANENT loss?

Take a lesson from the Quran verse quoted above and soften up. The girl took the time to find an Islamic forum, get in contact with other Muslims and ask questions that address her doubts. I hardly think the Ummah will benefit from such a harsh attitude like yours. We should encourage her to find the complete answer with truested scholars and not dismiss her as gone for good.


ATX, please read brother Woodrow and Khan's answers as they seem to be the best ones here. ALso, if you are not a girl, I apologize for using "she" to address you. I will make dua for you so that Allah guides you to Islam and the straight path.

 

[doorster]

Holy Quran 3:159
Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.


How could you say she is a loss already? Are you aware of the future? THe girl has questions, I had questions too when I was exploring Islam. I kept my faith and found the answers. THis girl still needs that boost and reassurance from the Islamic community she needs to join again and you ALREADY count her as a PERMANENT loss?

Take a lesson from the Quran verse quoted above and soften up. The girl took the time to find an Islamic forum, get in contact with other Muslims and ask questions that address her doubts. I hardly think the Ummah will benefit from such a harsh attitude like yours. We should encourage her to find the complete answer with truested scholars and not dismiss her as gone for good.


ATX, please read brother Woodrow and Khan's answers as they seem to be the best ones here. ALso, if you are not a girl, I apologize for using "she" to address you. I will make dua for you so that Allah guides you to Islam and the straight path.

that shows me how much you read!

in any case I will tell you this when advising some one based on google searches for Quraanic Ayyaat.

you just endorsed Mr the khan, who has on this very site made halal what is harram , and made haraam what is halal, did you you actually read much of his posts (or mine for that matter)?

it might impress some people when you throw around verses willy nilly but it does no good to anyone, people like you have turned this once great cite into a circus, a ruddy freak show, learn some common-sense and learn to recognise that just like one swallow does not make a summer nor does a drop of water make the ocean in the same way one seemingly decent post does not make Mr. khan the scholar and wipes of his declaring pig breeding permissible for Muslims as long as they obey the Quraan and not eat the flesh and use only its great leather.

Quraan is not there to take bits out to score points but its their to understand in its entirety. your munajjid style decree against me is just dumb and distorted, here I have posted a sample fatwa to show dummies how it should be done. find it at http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/134273647-haram-halal-meat.html

I really really am done here now I bid good bye to friends, and the rest of you scholars just carry on!

 

[AntiKarateKid]

that shows me how much you read!

in any case I will tell you this when advising some one based on google searches for Quraanic Ayyaat.

you just endorsed Mr the khan, who has on this very site made halal what is harram , and made haraam what is halal, did you you actually read much of his posts (or mine for that matter)?

it might impress some people when you throw around verses willy nilly but it does no good to anyone, people like you have turned this once great cite into a circus, a ruddy freak show, learn some common-sense and learn to recognise that just like one swallow does not make a summer nor does a drop of water make the ocean in the same way one seemingly decent post does not make Mr. khan the scholar and wipes of his declaring pig breeding permissible for Muslims as long as they obey the Quraan and not eat the flesh and use only its great leather.

Quraan is not there to take bits out to score points but its their to understand in its entirety.

I really really am done here now I bid good bye to friends, and the rest of you scholars just carry on!

Hmm. You just ranted against a person I pointed out and not MY POINT? Haha, anyways, if you got so much of a problemw ith Khan, lets say bro Woodrow then. Now what? Please keep it civil. Being on the internet does not give you permission to be so rude. How about calming down and thinking about my points then.

By the way, what I quoted is entirely relevant to our discussion and it refutes your attitude utterly.

As for your scholar comment:

1. You ignored the fact that I repeatedly asked her to find the opinion of a rela scholar
2. You act as if your Imaan is the highest here and you can tell the future of who wills tay with and turn away from Islam
3. you forget that you being Muslim obligates you to show others the way and not to shun them totally
4. You forget your manners while talking to a fellow Muslim
5. as for endorsing what is haram and vica versa, your actions endorse all the above and Mr. Khan is suddenly the evil one?? ^o)


All I am saying is that we keep together and help ATX without bickering like chickens.

 

[The Khan]

Oh, he considers me a heretic.

I do question EVERYTHING after all.

Let's not argue about our views, I do respect his after all, although he may not respect mine.

My view on this topic is the same as that of 3 out of 4 Sunni madhabs. Still not sure whether Hanbali allows women Imams in exceptional circumstances.

Personally, I don't like gender segregation, but I believe it is a must in a mosque. Haraam thoughts must not be present while in prayer, for this is when shaytan whispers the most in your head.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTwh6p1kyRQ[/media]