Obama's first pick: Israeli Rahm Emanuel as chief of staff

[Keltoi]

It doesn't have to be the case. If the nature of israel's strategic relationship with the US is imparted in earnest to the american electorate, we would hear greater calls for reform of foreign policy.

What change in foreign policy? Are you referring to the U.S./Israeli military partnership? That isn't going to change. The American electorate, those that care about Israel one way or the other, see a democracy in a sea of enemies. Rightly or wrongly, that is the perception. As Gator mentioned, every suicide bomb and rocket directed towards the civilian population of Israel is another nail in the coffin of any sympathy that might exist for the plight of the Palestinian people.

I think the manner in which the "war on terror" was presented in the american media, portrayed the US and it's key client regime of israel as being vicitimized by a vast international syndicate of fanatical zealots who were bent on wreaking havoc on the US and it's allies. This perverted people's judgment about who is cuplable for the international crisis and fomenting a climate of global antagonism that utlimately culminated in the inception of Al Qa'ida. The root of the issue has always been US foreign policy, and the uncondtional support it extends to israel. Unless the inimical effects of such dangerous policies are communicated to the american electorate, and not the opposite, in which the oppressed are portrayed as the aggressors, then only can we have a change in attitude towards israel in the US.

Nice recitation of Al-Qaeda propoganda. No country, U.S. or otherwise, should change foreign policy due to the justifications put forth by a terrorist group. The Palestinians are "portrayed" by what they do. By "they" I am obviously referring to Hamas, which was actually elected to represent the Palestinian people.

 

[جوري]

Israelis are also portrayed and known to the rest of thinking and discerning world by their terrorist past and present (haganah,irgun, stern gang).. the ones that the media repeatedly fails to mention... enjoy your 'ally' in a sea of 'enemies' the next bombing of the likes of SS liberty or the King David hotel...

still I say a neo con Jesus won't descend on a silver cloud to save bible thumpers, anymore than a moschiach will show for Israel.. two places joined in delusions.. at the price of the average individual's tax money.. Hope folks contemplate that when they find themselves standing in bread lines.. which judging from the repeated cock-and-bull stories peddled repeatedly by media w hores should be pretty soon!

enjoy!

 

[nocturnal]

Thats the point im making, persons like yourself are susceptible enough to fall for the selective news content that emanates from the region is carefully regulated by US media to portray the israelis as being tormented by rockets from Gaza and suicide bombers and declarations of jihad etc. But what you don't see is the actions perpetrated by the israelis against the Palestinians, the uprooting of the civilians from their homes, the destruction of of their lands which they utilize for subsistence, incessant bulldozing of every piece of infrastructure, recurring incursions. They don't tell you about repeated offers for a treaty from Hamas, which under american tutelage, israel rejects.

That's the single biggest problem, every time i cite facts that substantiate the claims of subjugation, oppression and persecution, you dismiss it nonchalantly as being nothing more than a piece of Al Qai'ida inspired oratory.

 

[Gator]

Thats the point im making, persons like yourself are susceptible enough to fall for the selective news content that emanates from the region is carefully regulated by US media to portray the israelis as being tormented by rockets from Gaza and suicide bombers and declarations of jihad etc..

You are not getting the point. We understand that the effective violence is against the Palestinians. All you have to do is look at the body counts. But its not the level of violence, its just the fact that terror attacks happen and justifies Israel's actions. I believe, the so called resistence is counter to a goal of a Palestinian state.

But what you don't see is the actions perpetrated by the israelis against the Palestinians, the uprooting of the civilians from their homes, the destruction of of their lands which they utilize for subsistence, incessant bulldozing of every piece of infrastructure, recurring incursions.

Yes we've seen them, but they are given a pro-Israeli context neatly provided by "Le Resistance".

They don't tell you about repeated offers for a treaty from Hamas, which under american tutelage, israel rejects.

Rejects because they knowingly put forth as non-viable. Hamas has reject peace entreaties as well, just because they know they get their strength from a confrontational approach to Israel. That fact that you would bring this up just tells me how naive you are to propaganda.

That's the single biggest problem, every time i cite facts that substantiate the claims of subjugation, oppression and persecution, you dismiss it nonchalantly as being nothing more than a piece of Al Qai'ida inspired oratory.

Because your delivery, blindness to the weakness of the argument of terror/resistance and taking as fact your sides propaganda (just as you think we do) destroys your credibility.

Consider the news based on the video taping of the Jewish settlers beating Palestinians. That was effective because it caught the unjust context of the Palestinians condition. I think from that incident, there started a broader feeling against the Jewish settlers especially the wildcat ones, especially amongst the news media.

They are now creeping up as one of the major roadblocks to peace rather than just the Palestinian terroists. Thats what they need to do to set the stage for a peace plan based on '67 borders.

 

[sudais1]

You are not getting the point. We understand that the effective violence is against the Palestinians. All you have to do is look at the body counts. But its not the level of violence, its just the fact that terror attacks happen and justifies Israel's actions. I believe, the so called resistence is counter to a goal of a Palestinian state.

Yes we've seen them, but they are given a pro-Israeli context neatly provided by "Le Resistance".

Rejects because they knowingly put forth as non-viable. Hamas has reject peace entreaties as well, just because they know they get their strength from a confrontational approach to Israel. That fact that you would bring this up just tells me how naive you are to propaganda.

Because your delivery, blindness to the weakness of the argument of terror/resistance and taking as fact your sides propaganda (just as you think we do) destroys your credibility.

Consider the news based on the video taping of the Jewish settlers beating Palestinians. That was effective because it caught the unjust context of the Palestinians condition. I think from that incident, there started a broader feeling against the Jewish settlers especially the wildcat ones, especially amongst the news media.

They are now creeping up as one of the major roadblocks to peace rather than just the Palestinian terroists. Thats what they need to do to set the stage for a peace plan based on '67 borders.

we'll never accept peace...over 1967 borders...never. Once the mujahideen overrun Iraq which is not far off, Afghanistan also not far off, and somalia by the new year most likely, then much of the Muslim world, you know who's next? Our brothers in Palestine won't weep much longer. The west has provided no solutions over 60 years and Israel don't want peace because they want to take all of Palestine and build their temple...never will that happen.

 

[Gator]

we'll never accept peace...over 1967 borders...never. Once the mujahideen overrun Iraq which is not far off, Afghanistan also not far off, and somalia by the new year most likely, ....

LOL!!!! OK, good luck with that.

 

[Trumble]

we'll never accept peace...over 1967 borders...never.

I'm not quite sure who "we" is supposed to be but the vast majority of real Palestinians would take a settlement based on the 1967 borders like a shot. Not that the Israelis are offering it, of course.

 

[nocturnal]

Hamas don't derive their strength from a confrontational posture towards Israel. They didn't win a landslide victory against the venal Fatah in 2006 by being confrontational. That's just an absurd over-simplification of the whole issue. They were mandated by the Palestinian people because of their unwavering conviction in the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and for those who were expelled to return to their homeland.

You say resistance is counter-productive to the establishment of a Palestinian state, what do you want? for the entrie populace to place their trust in the likes of Mahmood Abbas and his cronies who are willing to make astonishing concessions to the israelis without obtaining even the most elementary rights of survival for the besieged Palestinians?

Abandoning the resistance equates to abandoning their rights as a nation that was displaced to facilitate an incoming popluation. That is what it means, and Hamas is cognizant of that, that is why they can never relinquish the right to resist the occupation. Hamas has not rejected peace entreaties, quite the contrary, they themselves have called for ceasefires based on principles widely acceptable to the international community. To call for an end of the seige, the right to return of Palestinians, the dismantling of settlements which are a flagrant violation of Palestinan rights? is that so pernicious that they should be shunned and their legitimacy as the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinain people repudiated by israel and it's american benefactor?

It is you who is naive by suggesting that the resistance somehow perversely vindicates the murderous israeli acts against the Palestinians. Oppression justifies resistance. Look at history, every contemporary nation-state that was subjugated and brutalized under the yoke of imperialism won their independence through resistance and armed struggle. If the ANC in South Africa didn't resort to mobilizing forces to engage in armed struggle, then do you suppose the ruling elite in the Apartheid government would simply cede the nation right at the apex of their rule when they had every means to repress the masses at their disposal?

This same scenario has been repeated the world over, and the problem is, folks like yourself don't see apply this same context to the middle east problem. You must recognize this for what it is, an imperalistic enterprise that has endured over 60 years with unabashed western backing and must be brought to an end.

Let me also assert here that, i don't for one second condone suicide bombings, or the launching of rockets into major civlian population centers. But i do supprt the resistance in a broader context, in it's right to resist the attempts to ethnically clease every facet of Palestinian life.

 

[fouzie]

I have known this for long, no matter who will win the election, there will be the same..

__________________
Khalid Yasin - Islam And America
Khalid Yasin - Islam VS Terrorism

 

[Gator]

Let me also assert here that, i don't for one second condone suicide bombings, or the launching of rockets into major civlian population centers.

Thanks for agreeing with me that these types of violent resistence is not the answer.

 

[crayon]

Thanks for agreeing with me that these types of violent resistence is not the answer.

(You do know that pretty much everyone agrees with that, besides like a very small of people that decide to go against islam and it's teachings, right?)

 

[Suomipoika]

(You do know that pretty much everyone agrees with that, besides like a very small of people that decide to go against islam and it's teachings, right?)

No, quite honestly, I dont believe that. The support for groups that do such things is quite frightening. For example, majority of palestinians voted for group that among other things fires rockets and targets civilians. Hamas does seems to have many supporters outside Palestine, and they arent really the only group that does such, groups which are openly supported by few posters on these forums aswell.

Apart from some rare voices, only time violence done by self-proclaimed muslims is really criticised is when non-muslim speaks about it, whether in media or a poster on some forums, and the main problem then is not the actions of these groups, but that Islam is tied to it by the non-muslim giving negative image about Islam, even tho Islam is tied to the violence by people who claim to be muslims.

 

[Gator]

The 2006 election has been noted a few times to state that a "majority of palestinians" voted for Hamas that resulted in a "landslide".

Just FYI:

1) The landslide in parlimentary seats was due to the bloc voting system.
2) Hamas won the popular vote by 44.4% to 41.3% for Fatah.

I just think it provides evidence that Hamas wasn't supported by a majority and that the Palestinian people appear to be split just like about every other electorate on the planet.

Just wanted to point that out in case people were'nt aware or had a different ideas on the statistics surrounding the election.

Thanks.

 

[nocturnal]

The 2006 election has been noted a few times to state that a "majority of palestinians" voted for Hamas that resulted in a "landslide".

Just FYI:

1) The landslide in parlimentary seats was due to the bloc voting system.
2) Hamas won the popular vote by 44.4% to 41.3% for Fatah.

I just think it provides evidence that Hamas wasn't supported by a majority and that the Palestinian people appear to be split just like about every other electorate on the planet.

Just wanted to point that out in case people were'nt aware or had a different ideas on the statistics surrounding the election.

Thanks.

Perhaps what you should be pointing out is the fact that the democratic will of the Palestinian people was repudiated. They went in droves to elect their representatives, to mandate the movement they felt would best further their interests and not erode them, and what did they get for their troubles in this exercise of democracy? a western orchestrated slap in the face, a crippling seige, further expansion and isolation.

 

[Keltoi]

Perhaps what you should be pointing out is the fact that the democratic will of the Palestinian people was repudiated. They went in droves to elect their representatives, to mandate the movement they felt would best further their interests and not erode them, and what did they get for their troubles in this exercise of democracy? a western orchestrated slap in the face, a crippling seige, further expansion and isolation.

Just because a government is democratically elected doesn't mean other governments should be or will be their friends. Hamas is a terrorist organization, regardless of what other activities they wish to highlight.

 

[Gator]

I think the Palestinian people elected Hamas because of the their apparently demonstrated civic organization skills and less corruption than Fatah.

I believe the Palestinian people who voted for Hamas were looking for Hamas to be more internally focused and finally get less corrupted functioning government that would help the Palestinian people.

If the Palestinians that voted for Hamas wanted a confrontational no compromise approach to Israel that Hamas expounded then they got what they wanted.

 

[Suomipoika]

I just think it provides evidence that Hamas wasn't supported by a majority and that the Palestinian people appear to be split just like about every other electorate on the planet.

Point taken, but 44.4% of palestinian people is hardly a tiny number. Even with these numbers, going against the teachings of Islam, as crayon puts it, seems to be quite if not most popular point of view among palestinians.

 

[nocturnal]

To assert that Hamas is a terrorist organization is the height of ignorance. Hamas is a resistance movement, it will always been seen as such by anyone with an open mind. Yes, some of their methods are questionable, but they are anything but a terrorist organiaztion.

This is not emotional rhetoric, but the biggest terrorist entity in the world is the United States of America, it poses the largest single threat to world peace and stability. Why are you speculating bereft of a sufficent understanding of the realities of the occupied territories as to why those who voted for Hamas did so?

Has the PA, since it's inception done any better, they have made concession after concession to the zionist entity that is israel without obtaining even the most rudimentary rights for a persecuted people. Yes, Hamas's policies may elicit only more hardship for the Palestinian people, but simply because that's how israel reacts to Hamas's election doesn't make Hamas the culprit. Why do you in a unrelenting attitude of total ignorance subscribe to the notion that anything the US and israel define as "evil" to be evil.

The fault is not Hamas's. They have every right under international law to resist, they are doing so. It is the international community that has to shoulder the blame. It is the failure of the world to break free of the hegemonic amercan political sphere in which they have been seemingly permanently incarcerated. When the world steps up, takes concrete steps and makes clear to israel that it's murderous and zealous epoch of annexation, expansion, occupation and massacres must come to an end, or face stringent ramifications, only then can there be a semblance of peace and redress.

israel has for 60 years indulged in unending bloodletting under the aegis of the US, are you telling me that collaborators such as Fatah who have done nothing to stem this pattern, are representative of peace, stability, and Palestinain dignity? you need to look clearly at who is the terrorist here, it is the zionist regime, and it's cohorts in DC. The leaderships of these regimes belong in the dock right next to the likes of Charles Taylor, Karadzic and any other war criminal.

 

[Keltoi]

To assert that Hamas is a terrorist organization is the height of ignorance. Hamas is a resistance movement, it will always been seen as such by anyone with an open mind. Yes, some of their methods are questionable, but they are anything but a terrorist organiaztion.

This is not emotional rhetoric, but the biggest terrorist entity in the world is the United States of America, it poses the largest single threat to world peace and stability. Why are you speculating bereft of a sufficent understanding of the realities of the occupied territories as to why those who voted for Hamas did so?

Has the PA, since it's inception done any better, they have made concession after concession to the zionist entity that is israel without obtaining even the most rudimentary rights for a persecuted people. Yes, Hamas's policies may elicit only more hardship for the Palestinian people, but simply because that's how israel reacts to Hamas's election doesn't make Hamas the culprit. Why do you in a unrelenting attitude of total ignorance subscribe to the notion that anything the US and israel define as "evil" to be evil.

The fault is not Hamas's. They have every right under international law to resist, they are doing so. It is the international community that has to shoulder the blame. It is the failure of the world to break free of the hegemonic amercan political sphere in which they have been seemingly permanently incarcerated. When the world steps up, takes concrete steps and makes clear to israel that it's murderous and zealous epoch of annexation, expansion, occupation and massacres must come to an end, or face stringent ramifications, only then can there be a semblance of peace and redress.

israel has for 60 years indulged in unending bloodletting under the aegis of the US, are you telling me that collaborators such as Fatah who have done nothing to stem this pattern, are representative of peace, stability, and Palestinain dignity? you need to look clearly at who is the terrorist here, it is the zionist regime, and it's cohorts in DC. The leaderships of these regimes belong in the dock right next to the likes of Charles Taylor, Karadzic and any other war criminal.

When you strap bombs to yourself and blow up women and children you are a terrorist. Your justifications mean nothing.

 

[nocturnal]

When you strap bombs to yourself and blow up women and children you are a terrorist. Your justifications mean nothing.

When your family has been blown up in front of your eyes, your house bulldozed, your livelihood decimated, you have no weapons to fight with, no forseeable future, nothing more to live for in life, then as a human being, we all are capable of doing irrational things. Look at the underlying reasons, not what they cause.