Shoe thrower’s story

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Those shoes missing Bush are about as close as anyone is ever likely to get to holding him accountable for his crimes. Bush should be indicted in the ICC along with the leadership of Israel just as Richard Falk suggested for perpetrating crimes against humanity and gross violation of international law and human rights.

He likes to berate the likes of Mugabe, Castro, Chavez, when he himself is the biggest threat to international peace and stability.
 
Follower said:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/incidents/page1

This is a very sad page actually listing names and incidents- makes it much more personnal.
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yea i'm gona believe that! 7 years of murdering and only that much?

I highly doubt the accuracy of your site....


Iraqi toll lowballed by tens of thousands

The number of Iraqis killed, however, is much harder to pin down, and that uncertainty is perhaps reflected in Americans’ tendency to lowball the Iraqi death toll by tens of thousands.

Iraqi civilian deaths are estimated at more than 54,000 and could be much higher; some unofficial estimates range into the hundreds of thousands. The U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq reports more than 34,000 deaths in 2006 alone.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17310383/
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iraqdeaths-1.gif



The number is shocking and sobering.



It is at least 10 times greater than most estimates cited in the US media, yet it is based on a scientific study of violent Iraqi deaths caused by the U.S.-led invasion of March 2003.

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in September 2007. Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US-led invasion.


This devastating human toll demands greater recognition. It eclipses the Rwandan genocide and our leaders are directly responsible. Little wonder they do not publicly cite it

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
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north_malaysian said:
you can throw shoes via superpoke application on facebook now... it's very popular...:D

i think that guy got the status as a hero... all over the Muslim/Arab world.
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If Bush should have shoes thrown at him for what he has done, then why not Saddam Hussein before him or Osama BinLaden or the people who assassinated Benazir Bhutto or the terrorist in Mumbai?

Or, especially because so many here in this thread are upset over the tragic number of Iraqi civilians deaths in the last 5 years since the US invaded, why not those suicide bombers who have been the biggest killers of civilians in Iraq, even more than the USA has. Not trying to justify the actions of the USA, or say that I don't understand the hatred for Bush, but pointing out that many of these deaths would never have occured if those who strapped bombs to themselves would have just been true practioners of Islam to begin with.


TKTony said:
then what ? 1 person is too many
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See, I agree with this. And I'm supposing that if you really do as well, then you will want not just Bush, but ALL those who have been responsible, to be held to account.
 
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Grace Seeker said:
If Bush should have shoes thrown at him for what he has done, then why not Saddam Hussein before him or Osama BinLaden or the people who assassinated Benazir Bhutto or the terrorist in Mumbai?

Or, especially because so many here in this thread are upset over the tragic number of Iraqi civilians deaths in the last 5 years since the US invaded, why not those suicide bombers who have been the biggest killers of civilians in Iraq, even more than the USA has. Not trying to justify the actions of the USA, or say that I don't understand the hatred for Bush, but pointing out that many of these deaths would never have occured if those who strapped bombs to themselves would have just been true practioners of Islam to begin with.
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So typical of westerners to justify their war criminals and always turn the topic around to blame a handful of suicide bombers. Who is doing carpet bombing? who is walking in broad day light carrying guns and breaking into houses? Who is the committing war crimes, waged an illegal war, and what not. What happend in mumbai was a terrorist attack and thats it, what is going on in Iraq is a invasion/occupation, a holocaust of iraqis by western troops. You are trying to justify it regardless of how you defending it. You can't compare a destruction of a nation and holocaust of thier people to the examples you are giving. There is a difference between a pick pocket thief and a whole organized ruthless murdering syndicate. As for your remarks...
many of these deaths would never have occured if those who strapped bombs to themselves ....
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The invasion and occupation of Iraq was based on LIES of WMD, where are the WMD? I didn't hear anyone saying we are going to iraq because of suicide bombers, however did you arrive at that conclusion?

Like I said, most kuffars here always try to turn the table around and come back to a few suicide bombers and Muslims being the "terrorists" and "we wouldn't be there if they don't do this or that", face the realiy kuffars, who is committing the bigger crime here?
 
islamirama said:
So typical of westerners to justify their war criminals and always turn the topic around to blame a handful of suicide bombers.
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A handful? Please
islamirama said:
Who is doing carpet bombing? who is walking in broad day light carrying guns and breaking into houses? Who is the committing war crimes, waged an illegal war, and what not. What happend in mumbai was a terrorist attack and thats it, what is going on in Iraq is a invasion/occupation, a holocaust of iraqis by western troops. You are trying to justify it regardless of how you defending it. You can't compare a destruction of a nation and holocaust of thier people to the examples you are giving. There is a difference between a pick pocket thief and a whole organized ruthless murdering syndicate.
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If you can't even deal with the reality that the majority of civilian deaths in Iraq were caused by Muslims then there is no point taking anything else you say seriously.


islamirama said:
The invasion and occupation of Iraq was based on LIES of WMD, where are the WMD? I didn't hear anyone saying we are going to iraq because of suicide bombers, however did you arrive at that conclusion?
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I don't remember him saying anything about the war being about suicide bombers. He pointed out a reality, which is suicide bombers killing more civilians than the U.S. military by a large amount. The U.S. still bears responsibility for breaking down the Iraqi status quo which allowed that carnage to take place.
islamirama said:
Like I said, most kuffars here always try to turn the table around and come back to a few suicide bombers and Muslims being the "terrorists" and "we wouldn't be there if they don't do this or that", face the realiy kuffars, who is committing the bigger crime here?
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I think a suicide bomber walking into a crowded market, wedding, funeral, etc and detonating a bomb filled with nails and high explosive to be a fairly big crime. The intent is much more diabolical. That being said, it is a crime that so many civilians were killed due to this war, regardless of the culprits.
 
Keltoi said:
I don't remember him saying anything about the war being about suicide bombers. He pointed out a reality, which is suicide bombers killing more civilians than the U.S. military by a large amount. The U.S. still bears responsibility for breaking down the Iraqi status quo which allowed that carnage to take place.
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Exactly. The USA is in no position to say that what it did was right. I didn't think so in 2002 as events were leading up to the war. I didn't think so in March of 2003 as it began. And I don't think so now. But I don't see how the USA's wrong doing in any way excuses the actions of the citizenry who compounded the tragedy that was already occurring as the result of a foreign invader, by beginning to target themselves. How ridiculous of an act!! And to blame the US (or anyone else) for what resident Muslims did to one another is to refuse to look in the mirror, just as you accuse the US of doing.

Throwing a shoe at the president of the country who invaded you as a statement of disgust seems a rather inocuous act compared to the self-destruction inflicted by not a handful but hundreds of Iraqis who killed hundreds of thousands of their own. These acts more than anything else, especially since you are right there were not WMDs, are what has kept the USA in Iraq for as long they have stayed.

The whole thing is a gross example of two wrongs not making a right. And for either party to claim that they are not so bad because someone else is doing wrong things as well is to show the utter depravity of mankind as whole. Even though there are precipitary events, one does not, cannot excuse the other.
 
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Grace Seeker said:
If Bush should have shoes thrown at him for what he has done, then why not Saddam Hussein before him or Osama BinLaden or the people who assassinated Benazir Bhutto or the terrorist in Mumbai?

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Thats a good point. I wonder how many of those Bush-throwners aimed Osama ben Laden et consortes. I guess, very few.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Exactly. The USA is in no position to say that what it did was right. I didn't think so in 2002 as events were leading up to the war. I didn't think so in March of 2003 as it began. And I don't think so now. But I don't see how the USA's wrong doing in any way excuses the actions of the citizenry who compounded the tragedy that was already occurring as the result of a foreign invader, by beginning to target themselves. How ridiculous of an act!! And to blame the US (or anyone else) for what resident Muslims did to one another is to refuse to look in the mirror, just as you accuse the US of doing.

Throwing a shoe at the president of the country who invaded you as a statement of disgust seems a rather inocuous act compared to the self-destruction inflicted by not a handful but hundreds of Iraqis who killed hundreds of thousands of their own. These acts more than anything else, especially since you are right there were not WMDs, are what has kept the USA in Iraq for as long they have stayed.

The whole thing is a gross example of two wrongs not making a right. And for either party to claim that they are not so bad because someone else is doing wrong things as well is to show the utter depravity of mankind as whole. Even though there are precipitary events, one does not, cannot excuse the other.
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lol westerners like you just make me laugh, incase you didnt realize, it was you smart westeners who allowed all hell to break loose in Iraq, did you forget that? you went into a country, removed the goverment, army, police, and all institutions for law and order, which then leaves a massive hole for power to be filled in, and you didnt expect dozens of millitias and sects to fight and kill each other for this power grab which you caused in the first place?

you are the cause of all the chaos in Iraq, ALL OF IT, suicide bombers, roadside boms, you are the head of all this, why? because once gung ho cowboys went in, all of this was unleashed in Iraq, and this is why the Iraqi threw his shoes at Bush, not only for invading his country, but being the catalyst that led to a civil war, and full of bloodshed, so get your facts straight plz.

look at new orleans, just a few days with no law and all hell broke loose, now imagine that in a country like Iraq, with full of millitias and groups wanting power, and you dont expect inner battles and struggles? who in this blue world are you trying to kid?

now run along, enjoy your christmas, stand around the fire, sing your songs, and be happy that you and your familly are smiling and having a good time over the blood and bodies of thousands of Iraqis.
 
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If Bush should have shoes thrown at him for what he has done, then why not Saddam Hussein before him or Osama BinLaden or the people who assassinated Benazir Bhutto or the terrorist in Mumbai?

are you trying to be funny? i dont know....are you referring to the same Saddam Hussein that was hanged?????? are you referring to the same mumbai attackers whom Muslims refuse to burry? are you referring to the same Bin Laden who is hiding somehwere in a cave? how in the world are Muslims going to throw shoes, let alone mangos at Osama Bin Laden when he doesnt go around making public talks infront of journalists!

as for Bhutto, who killed her? no one knows yet, so who are we going to throw our shoes at when we dont even know who killed her.

so plz stop talking nonsense.
 
The_Prince said:
are you trying to be funny? i dont know....are you referring to the same Saddam Hussein that was hanged?????? are you referring to the same mumbai attackers whom Muslims refuse to burry? are you referring to the same Bin Laden who is hiding somehwere in a cave? how in the world are Muslims going to throw shoes, let alone mangos at Osama Bin Laden when he doesnt go around making public talks infront of journalists!

as for Bhutto, who killed her? no one knows yet, so who are we going to throw our shoes at when we dont even know who killed her.

so plz stop talking nonsense.
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It's not nonsense. Us westerners, as you like to make the reference, are told over and over agian about how Islam is a religion of peace. We're told that people weren't dancing in the streets over the attack on the World Trade Center, that it was celebration over a soccer match. Right! Like I believe that.:rolleyes:

But call you on your cheering on of this behavior, and you come right back to trying to put the blame someplace else. So, the question is in all seriousness. If Bush was so bad, and I'm not saying that he isn't, that it is appropriate to treat him this way. Then exactly how, in the cultural context of Iraq, should Saddam Hussein have been treated? I never saw anyone throw shoes at him, not while he was living. That someone can do it with Bush, and knows that the reprecussions will be not mean a firing squad or hanging tells me that there is indeed more freedom in Iraq than before. Now, if Bush is to blame for all of the bad, then maybe he should get credit for that little bit of good as well.

As for what I expected when we went into Iraq, actually I did expect the turmoil and chaos that followed. Indeed did you not read where I said that the USA's action precipitated what followed? As I have repeatedly said in this very thread, and posted in other forums at the time it was happening, that is one, and not the only one, of the reasons that I was always against it. But here is the thing, we in the US were horrified at the way some of the folks in New Orleans behaved. And we are similarly horrified at the way some in the White House and in Iraq have beheaved. You seem to accept, even excuse, these behaviors in Iraq.

I would say that those in New Orleans who committed those crimes were not acting like Christians, even if they claimed they were. Will you say that those in Iraq who have committed the crimes they have were not acting like Muslims? Or do you think that such behavior, murdering your own neighbors who supposedly are of the same Islamic faith as you, is justified because a foreign power has invaded and disrupted the country?
 
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Grace Seeker said:
It's not nonsense. Us westerners as you like to make the reference, are told over and over agian about how Islam is a religion of peace. We're told that people weren't dancing in the streets over the attack on the World Trade Center, that it was celebration over a soccer match. Right! Like I believe that.:rolleyes:

But call you on your cheering on of this behavior, and you come right back to trying to put the blame someplace else. So, the question is in all seriousness. If Bush was so bad, and I'm not saying that he isn't, that it is appropriate to treat him this way. Then exactly how, in the culture context of Iraq, should Saddam Hussein have been treated? I never saw anyone throw shoes at him, not while he was living. That someone can do it with Bush, and knows that the reprecussions will be not mean a firing squad or hanging tells me that there is indeed more freedom in Iraq than before. Now, if Bush is to blame for all of the bad, then maybe he should get credit for that little bit of good as well.

As for what I expected when we went into Iraq, actually I did expect the turmoil and chaos that followed. Indeed did you not read where I said that the USA's action precipitated what followed. As I have repeatedly said in this very thread, and posted in other forums at the time it was happening, that is one, and not the only one, of the reasons that I was always against it. But here is the thing, we in the US were horrified at the way some of the folks in New Orleans behaved. And we are similarly horrified at the way some in the White House and in Iraq have beheaved. You seem to accept, even excuse, these behaviors in Iraq.

I would say that those in New Orleans who committed those crimes were not acting like Christians, even if they claimed they were. Will you say that those in Iraq who have committed the crimes they have were not acting like Muslims? Or do you think that such behavior, murdering your own neighbors who supposedly are of the same Islamic faith as you, is justified because a foreign power has invaded and disrupted your country?
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Saddam was hanged, unlike you, you will allow Bush and all his people to get away with their crimes and war, which says it all. on top of that you label the soldiers, the murderous soldiers who are causing the carnage, as being heroes, so give us a break, we are supposed to believe you? that you are a people of a peace and love? now i must admit that thats funny, as i said, go sing ur christmas songs, thinking ur all civilized, and while u do this all, ur doing it over the blood and resources of other people.
 
The_Prince said:
Saddam was hanged, unlike you, you will allow Bush and all his people to get away with their crimes and war, which says it all. on top of that you label the soldiers, the murderous soldiers who are causing the carnage, as being heroes, so give us a break, we are supposed to believe you? that you are a people of a peace and love? now i must admit that thats funny, as i said, go sing ur christmas songs, thinking ur all civilized, and while u do this all, ur doing it over the blood and resources of other people.
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And if the government of Iraq wanted, they have the legal authority to bring charges against President Bush. Thus far, they have not chosen to do so. But as for the carnage you speak of, again, much more of that has been done by civilians on civilians than all of the deaths caused by the armies of both sides combined. And those soldiers that have participated in things like murders, rape, and extortion should be tried for those crimes as well. You will find no protection given by me to individuals who commit such crimes, even should they be wearing the uniform of my own country or claim to be adherents of my faith. Are you willing to say the same thing?
 
LOL!! If someone had thrown a shoe at Saddam when he was alive, that person would have been killed!!

The shoe throwing is in sorts an example of the right of free speech!! It is because of the freedoms brought by the coalition.

With freedom comes responsibility! How can anyone expect the Iraqi to understand freedom and the responsibility that comes with it? They have been living under a dictator.

If the Iraqis understood they would not have stolen from and ransacked their museums that are meant for all people to enjoy.

The Iraqis really need some civic classes!!
 
Whatsthepoint said:
Saz the did.. Would you hand him over to them or protect him as your citizen?
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There aren't many Americans that would support or allow a foreign body to charge and convict a sitting or past president.

Having said that, if Americans were being dominated by a murderous regime and lacked the power to end that tyranny they would surely take the initiative and charge that regime when its power over them was gone. That is what occurred with Saddam, who was charged and executed by an Iraqi court of law.
 

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