Living in Non-Muslim lands: What's the excuse?

[Tariqa]

wow mashallah thats amazing!

to the thread starter - i know you keep saying that muslims need to move back to muslim countries but where do you suggest muslim converts move to? like some of the members already said not many islamic countries are willing to accept non-native muslims!

Anywhere its not the point that of where they should move the point is should they move. just listen to people like yourself that think it is OK everyday to live among disbelievers and corruption and you excuses are that because their are Muslim countries that also practice corruption? You are wildly mistaken if you think the fitnah in places such as UK Europe or America is anything close to the corruption in any land with many Muslims populations..
We are not here telling people where to move to we are telling them that they should move.. Before we can discuss where to move to we first must all agree that we have to and we should move for the sake of Islam.. No ands ifs or buts in most cases, no excuses...If we cant agree on this fact then i see the Muslims may be weak, white washed and doomed to the hells fire of Allah possibly forever... Jihad is obligatory upon the Muslims, to struggle and live hard lives not take the easy way out, these Muslims are not struggling to find Muslim lands because they have made up their mind to live easy lives.. They are not consistently trying every year to get into a Muslim country it is something that is just in the back of their minds, something that sounds "nice to do so one day" but no effort are the making..
Many Muslims believe they do not have to leave because the Muslim countries are bad as well but obviously they are lying to themselves if they think the corruption in the Muslim countries is as widespread as in countries of the west and the like..



i know its important to give dawah to our Muslim brothers and sisters but giving dawah to non-Muslim is just as important! If Muslims did not move to non-Muslim countries Islam wouldn't have spread as much as it has today.

You are widely mistaken if you believe that giving dawah to non Muslims take precedence over supporting the Muslim ummah first.. It is our first and foremost duty to secure the homeland first.. This is our dawah, protecting our Muslim states and fighting for and against the oppression of our Muslim family as well as the non Muslim family... we cannot run and use the excuse that we are giving dawah because giving dawah first you must be a living example.. What kind of message are you sending the non Muslims when you go overseas or what not, settle in a land of sin, a land full of even more corruption then many homelands of Muslims, and use the haram materials of that land to give dawah and do right..?? Allah does not accept haram means.. You cannot justify being in non Muslim lands because for 1 it is a greater evil, and for 2 you just living there every night sleeping next to these kafirs is a sin, and you cannot do evil for the sake of good especially a greater evil as Muslims seem to go to these non Muslims countries and do haram to help halal causes.. totally backward , Allah will not accept this at all..


i dint think you can practice your deen to the full extent in most 'Islamic countries'



Yes this is true but you can practice it better than you can in many non Muslim lands..We are choosing the lesser evil, Muslim going to non Muslims lands is a greater evil..you cannot justify that

Many Muslims find easier to practice Islam in the west than some Islamic countries.
Can you clarify the daily sins Muslims in the west are committing?


Any Muslim that comes in here from here on out and say that he can practice Islam easier in a non Muslim land or the west for that matter has indeed been widely indoctrinated...He is under a false perception that the little bit of freedoms he has in western and non Muslims states are indeed freedoms but they are just an illusion, they are not true freedoms..And they are greater injustices to the Muslims than in a Muslim land understand that..

To clarify the daily sins Muslims many Muslims commit daily just living in the west for one the mere presence of living there.. Any Muslim that lives in a land with so much fitnah and chooses this as his home is in sin over the fitnahs of the Muslims...Just living there is a sin....Living there includes, choosing non muslims as your neighbors under one head system of democracy or whatever kufr system you have to abide by.. You have to support this regime every day, when you pay the taxes to the government who in turn uses this wealth to support armies to kill Muslim, you support their system everyday you abide by their evil laws, Taxes, insurance, support of kufr, lack of support to the Muslim lands the ones that really need our support...
How about the money issue.. How many halal jobs are there in places such as the west...??
How many can find a halal job one that is not Incorporated with some type of sin or free mixing of women and men and blatant displays of adorations among non Muslims??
How about the economic problem how the country is much more usurious and economy based off riba then many other Muslim countries.. The more freedom you get is because of the more riba based money they make so indeed the wealthier they become they greater their evils become hence why it makes it a greater sin, a greater evil then some smaller Muslim lands of riba or even other non Muslims lands that are pooorer...

How about the banking system?? How many Muslims are supporting these evil banking regimes full of riba even though they have things like checking accounts, the banks uses their money to lend on usurious loans every single day just about which you are contributing to their sin by giving them the money you know they will lend on riba because that is their profession...There are very few if any at all Islamic banking systems in the west or in non Muslims lands for that matter.. You have a choice to find halal banking but many do not chooses to go the extra mile, they choose to take the easy way out, the way of sin..
Just to name a few disgusting sins these so called Muslims are committing in their "lands of ease" they call it
That seems mighty hard indeed for a Muslim to try to come to these lands and practice his deen when the corruption is even higher, greater more widespread in these countries then home lands.. may Allah forgive these ignorant muslims........


ever lived in Tunisia, Turkey, Somalia, Morocco, Iran? At least here in the west we have more religious freedom than those so-called Muslim countries

Somalia, and Morocco, I do not agree if those lands do not have at least Muslims as governing affairs i cannot say.. I do think that a Muslim say for instance who lives in the west America and cannot move to Saudi Arabia at the time will reduce his sin of living in the west by moving to a country like Somalia or Tunisia or turkey BECAUSE THOSE LANDS ARE CLOSER TO THE MUSLIM LANDS, they may not be Muslims lands but they are closer and they have a greater population of Muslim, even going to one of these lands is better than going to the worst lands of non Muslims such as America..



















This is a shame to listen to some of the statements these so called Muslims are making on this site.. I true shame indeed.. The Muslims have more respect for non Muslims it seems then their own brothers in Islam.. Some Muslims would rather seek asylum with the disbelievers before they try to find Muslim lands to work with..

This is a shame over and over i keep restating on this post that you do not have religious freedom, the religious freedom you think you have in non Muslim lands.. You are playing by their kufr system, you are supporting their system. This is the problem where Muslims say that there is no other land to go to in hard times so they go to a non Muslim land before they even attempt to find another Muslim land for refuge.. All Muslim lands aren't the same and their are some that has easier entrance then others..The point is that the Muslims do not even try to find an Islamic land and they immediately go to some kufrs arms.. Tell me how many Muslim inhabitant lands are there??? Your telling me out of the 30 lands or more there was no place to go?? SO what made you think certain countries like America was a free land among all the others.. How is that you were so oppressed but manage to find your way all the way to a land such as that...

The Muslims are weak.. The minute some war breaks out they all go running to the disbelievers for support,.. They do not even think that staying in their war ravaged land and fighting the oppressors is a jihad. The Muslims just want to get some money and live a fat, easy, simple life. The Muslims have lost sight that jihad is not an option, it is an obligation upon the ummah.. You do not have a choice to live a fat "easy" life in a non Muslim land while your families are dieing and being oppressed overseas.. Your western money will not save your family.. The Muslim ummah does not need the occupations of many Muslims that go to the non Muslim countries and start haram occupations. They are weak people that have forsaken the religion and denied the struggle us Muslims are supposed top be going through... Muslims are not entitled to live easy lives.. No one ever said that it would be perfectly easy for the Muslims.. Whenever some adversity strikes you can just pack up and throw yourself into the arms of kufr.. These weak Muslims have no intention on fighting.. they have settled in their new homes of sin...

 

[Amadeus85]

Muslims living in USA, UK, Holland, Germany etc might be aware that their tax money goes also to fund western troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Besides, I think that its easier to raise a muslim child in islamic way in an Egypt or Indonesia than in Europe, as many young european muslims choose unreligious way of life.

 

[Tariqa]

Of course it is easier because they temptations are alot less in smaller countires to begin with.. Its like raising a child in a smaller classroom over a large one..Obviosuly the temptations will be less than the temptation and energy of a larger room.. anyone that says it is eaiser to live an islamic life is speaking from an intoxicated mind.. they obviously are not thinking logically. How can a muslim living in a non muslim majorty counrty have it easier where islam is a minorty and many people do not understand the religon as opposed to a muslim country where at least they understand the religion, their are more islamic shops, more mosques that call the athan at the proper times, more finalical security as opposed to shark like westen banks, and a more islamic enviorment.. How could one deny that this s easier for a muslim to live in this state as opposed to the starngers of the non muslim lands..??

Also for those that say in their lands they are oppressed, allah will question why they could not find another land full of muslims that did not have wars and oppression most likely.. Those using this excues are the same ones that go to the furthest ends of the world as if the country that had a war was not next to another muslim land that was not warring.. They disregard all the other muslim lands or even non muslim lands such as eygypt or morroco that are still in the middle east or closer to the heart of the ummah..Some travel so far away to flee from "oppression" right into the arms of even worst trials..
Not thinking about trying any close neighbors land until the war dies down, they flee and set up lives and in many cases never even think to come back...





The tax issue is very legitimate.. Any muslim supporting these regimes do so more so in any other way than the taxes and suppport sent directly to the governemnts.. DOing business with the enemy is bad enough as we seen that Saudi Arabia would do business with the enemy builing the enemies infrastucture but we are not talking about business we are talking about nvoluentary support the governents of non muslim lands foruce their citizens to contrabute...a muslim moving there willingly knows that he will have to support the governments of a greater evil then corrupt governents in the muslim lands but yet he would still be willing to submit to these regimes with aid, help, and support..

Ding business with the enemy is not as great of a sin as livng directly under supporting the enemies infastucture which majority if not all of the muslims, in these non muslim lands are doing exactly that..

 

[rpwelton]

Being a new Muslim, this is an issue I've ran through my head again and again.

I have heard from many people who go live abroad and return to the US that the environment here in America is probably the closest to the environment that existed in the time of Muhammad (SAW). I'm not talking about the government or the people that surround us in our daily lives who are not Muslim, but merely the society we live in.

We have the freedom to practice all parts of our religion. We can pray 5 times a day anywhere (I've prayed in parks, businesses, planes, trains, etc). The women can wear hijab and abayas; the men can grow their beards. There is really no part of the religion we can't fulfill.

However, there are a few major obstacles we face.

One is the food. It's easy to make sure the meat you eat is halal, but there are so many ingredients used in food these days that come from suspect sources. The pig is literally the most pervasive animal on the planet. Not only does it come in countless varieties of meat and is served in nearly every American restaurant, but they make stuff you wouldn't even think of out of pig parts. You have to make sure you watch everything you buy in the stores and when you eat out, the only safe place to eat is in a restaurant that is 100% halal. It's a big fitna, but it's doable.

The other is the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our tax dollars go to fund a war that is being waged against Muslims. No doubt this is a conflict nearly all American Muslims (and Muslims in other allied lands) are a part of. Honestly the only way to get around it is to force yourself to live below the poverty line to avoid paying federal taxes. I'm not sure how Allah SWT will judge us on this. I haven't yet heard a good answer on how to deal with this one.

If the government weren't waging war against Muslim-populated lands then living here would not be such a big deal. There isn't an Islamic state anywhere, so you really can't say just because we live in a non-Muslim land there are better forms of government out there.

In the end, there is no easy answer. I would love to live in a Muslim country, but as so many life experiences have taught me in the past, the grass is not always greener on the other side. Insha Allah I would like to visit some Muslim lands to see what they're like before settling, as it would be very frustrating to get there and realize that my deen is either not growing or is shrinking. So many countries these days are Westernized, so I'm really not sure which cities in the world are best.

Allahualim.

 

[TrueStranger]

Bro Tariqa do me a favor and tell me which Muslim Nation you live in. And kindly do tell me how many Muslim refugees it provides for, and please do tell me have you ever helped any Muslim that came from a war-torn country?

 

[Tariqa]

Being a new Muslim, this is an issue I've ran through my head again and again.

I have heard from many people who go live abroad and return to the US that the environment here in America is probably the closest to the environment that existed in the time of Muhammad (SAW). I'm not talking about the government or the people that surround us in our daily lives who are not Muslim, but merely the society we live in.

We have the freedom to practice all parts of our religion. We can pray 5 times a day anywhere (I've prayed in parks, businesses, planes, trains, etc). The women can wear hijab and abayas; the men can grow their beards. There is really no part of the religion we can't fulfill.

However, there are a few major obstacles we face.

One is the food. It's easy to make sure the meat you eat is halal, but there are so many ingredients used in food these days that come from suspect sources. The pig is literally the most pervasive animal on the planet. Not only does it come in countless varieties of meat and is served in nearly every American restaurant, but they make stuff you wouldn't even think of out of pig parts. You have to make sure you watch everything you buy in the stores and when you eat out, the only safe place to eat is in a restaurant that is 100% halal. It's a big fitna, but it's doable.

The other is the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our tax dollars go to fund a war that is being waged against Muslims. No doubt this is a conflict nearly all American Muslims (and Muslims in other allied lands) are a part of. Honestly the only way to get around it is to force yourself to live below the poverty line to avoid paying federal taxes. I'm not sure how Allah SWT will judge us on this. I haven't yet heard a good answer on how to deal with this one.

If the government weren't waging war against Muslim-populated lands then living here would not be such a big deal. There isn't an Islamic state anywhere, so you really can't say just because we live in a non-Muslim land there are better forms of government out there.

In the end, there is no easy answer. I would love to live in a Muslim country, but as so many life experiences have taught me in the past, the grass is not always greener on the other side. Insha Allah I would like to visit some Muslim lands to see what they're like before settling, as it would be very frustrating to get there and realize that my deen is either not growing or is shrinking. So many countries these days are Westernized, so I'm really not sure which cities in the world are best.

Allahualim.

First off i just wanted to quote a few statements this brother has made..
Ill admit in a land such as America you are "free" to do what you like.. Is is easier in lands such as US to do what you like?? No it is not.. You are confusing freedom with difficulty... In America it is harder to practice those same freedoms you do admit we have..The truth is even though we are allowed to make our 5 salats and grow beards, many companies also have the right to not hire you in many cases.. they may be sued but freedom only goes so far...As for mosques it is not as easy to live in Muslim communities, the ones that do then mashallah.. It is also not so easy to find halal jobs as you said the restaurants that sell pig prevail and the halal restaurants are the minority in many places... It is hard for many Muslims to find halal incomes and halal places to shop in these lands that are prevailing with flith....

It is hard for many Muslims to find halal banking environments, halal shops, halal many things because Islam is the minority in non Muslim lands.. This is why we say 1# that it is easier to practice Islam in a Muslim land and that 2# it may be obligatory because whether or not you are free to practice your religion in a non Muslim land or not, the mere living situation with non Muslims is not allowed in Islam You are choosing non Muslims as your neighbors over Muslims.. This in Islam with no valid reason is not acceptable.. Muslims are not allowed to live wherever they choose to live, Muslims are only allowed to be Muslims wherever they are..

For anyone to sit in here and say that a Muslim is allowed to live among disbelievers, ask them how?? How can a Muslim carry out shariah law in a land of disbelievers??? Shariah law is apart of Islam and it is not allowed under the regime of a kufr system.. The kufr's are in charge and you must obey their laws.. That goes for Taxes, insurance for cars, photos for licenses, marriage laws. Hope about the fact that Muslims are supposed to change the evils that are being done in their lands?? If a Muslim lives in a land with immorality he has no way of changing that evil because the kufrs are in charge.. He cannot fully practice that part of his deen...School systems and non mixing areas.. It makes it really hard for Muslims living in this situation and Muslims are not supposed to make it hard on themselves...

So what do we do just go broke?? No there are ways around paying taxes but it takes some work....The scholars say that it is permissible to obey these laws if you live in a land and you have no choice but to obey, laws such as taxes but this applies for the one that was born in the land and people of the like that have no means or plan to leave.. But they only do enough until they can leave and when they have the mean,which many do, they leave wherever is available to leave to, the lesser evil lands, as so as possible...By no means does this mean a person can immigrate to a non Muslim land and pay the tax because its a law.. He should not have came over here in the first place knowing the situations thats going on today...
Even in this permissions there are exceptions....


In the end there is an easy answer..we leave these lands instead of going under poverty.. how weak would the Muslims be if to avoid paying taxes we harmed ourselves with poverty.. Leave the land for thats they easy way out and stop trying to justify everything and get around rulings by playing with the laws of allah....We are not allowed in Islam to live like this so to make it easy we leave however we can in an Islamic manner..

If the next person responds and tells me that there is nowhere to go i may call him a liar because there are better places to go then places like America, there are smaller lands, that are cheaper with lesser evils...If you cannot now then do not say that it is permissible to live in a evil land because you cant find anything else but close your mouth and accept that you are living in sin and make the intention to leave these haram places first and then strive to find a better place...


















Why is that the Muslims keep asking me which Muslim nation i live in.. Do they not think that i have such a keen insight on whats going on if i did not live in these same lands of flith..??? I should be more entitled to speak then any scholar for i know what is going on, i know what is the deal in these lands and with the state of the ummah with my own eyes, i know i have seen, i am trying, i have tried..


Where i live does not matter, what i am doing to help the Muslims is not just for the Muslims, it is for us all. i am trying to rally support among all Muslims to at least recognize that we do have a problem and understand what the solution is to this problem.. Once we understand this then we can figure how we will execute this knowledge but first we must all understand what needs to be done...

 

[KelleyD]

What is the excuse that there is no where to go?? Of all states there is no where on the spacious earth to leave to.. ???

Tariqa, Quite respectfully, I will ask you......which Muslim country will allow an American muslim woman to enter in and live? As soon as you can give me the answer, I'll be booking a flight.

You see, I've already done the research.....alot of it. And I keep on researching every year. And instead of finding a country which will welcome foreign Muslims with open arms, I find that the rules and regulations are becoming more and more strict. It is now virtually impossible for a foreigner to enter most Muslim countries to even visit, much less, to take up permanent residence there. The reason being is that since 9-11 and this so-called "war on terror", the violence in the Middle East has escalated to the point where almost all Muslim countries are on the State Department's list of countries which harbor terrorists and access to American (and other) citizens is denied.

So again, I pose the question, which Muslim country will welcome us with open arms?

So what you plan to just wait until the Mahdi comes???

O.K. That was a joke.

When will that be?? We do not know so how can anyone just say there is no hope on our parts.. This lazy mentality is the reason Muslims today are behind indeed..They give up and put trust in Allah before even tieing the camel...You cant say theres no real hope you must say that i will continue to struggle even if my money keeps running out... Deal with the hardships of the corrupt Muslim countries because it is easier than living in a non Muslim country the struggles are allot harder... You cannot give up you must continue to strive and find ways to enter these countries..

Well, you have a valid point here. While I don't see myself as a "lazy" Muslim, I will concede that I have become quite complacent in the continued search to find a way to enter those countries. As I said, about the only other way I know how is to marry a Muslim from that country. If I am not in that country to begin with, how is that possible? Can you offer any viable suggestions besides just telling someone not to give up? Not that that isn't a good start, but I welcome any others that you may have because I've wracked my brain over this for a long time and, to date, have found no viable solutions.

Which brings up another issue. I look forward to the day when Allah (SWT), inshallah, will bring a husband to me. On that day, I hope that he will want to marry me because I am a good Muslim women (among other virtues and qualitites) and NOT because I live in America. So how much worse would a good God-fearing Brother feel if he felt the only reason someone else wanted to marry him was to move to his country? There should be more to the sacred marriage union between two people than that. This is one of the reasons why I have not sought this option out. Having an alterior motive for marriage somehow feels dishonest.

So, like I said.....for me, there is no easy answer here. The one thing I know is that if I remain steadfast in my desire to move, and if my intentions are pure, Allah, (SWT) will help me find a way. I endeavor to have patience until that day arrives.

Now, I hope it doesn't sound as if I am being contentous with you because really I am not. You bring up some important points:

1 – If you live in a non-Muslim land, you should consider leaving because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) disavowed himself of anyone who settles among the mushrikeen. Hence it is haraam for you to stay in the land of kufr, especially those that have moved to them for the sake of work, since that is not one of the legitimate excuses for which you may be allowed to move or stay there.

2 – When choosing a Muslim land to live in, if possible, stive to choose the Muslim land where people adhere most closely to modesty, chastity and commitment to Islam. It is well known that the Muslim lands vary in these matters, and not every country is a place where you could settle, unfortunately, rather that depends on your nationality and the laws of the land.

3 – If you cannot move to that country, then you must fear Allah, may He be exalted, and adhere to His commands in all your affairs, foremost among which must be guarding your families against disintegration and assimilation. You must pay attention to your children, both males and females, give them a good Islamic upbringing and a sense of connection to Islamic history, teach them the rulings of Islam, and teach them Arabic well. While not impossible in America, it's not a walk in the park either......especially since 911.

4 - Whoever stays in the non-Muslim lands must realize that Allah will ask him about his flock on the Day of Resurrection, so let him prepare an answer.

Along with those points are some other things to consider:

One member said he wasn't sure why you posted this topic. I believe the basic underlying principle to this thread is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): “In what (condition) were you?” They reply: “We were weak and oppressed on the earth.” They (angels) say: “Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?” Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:97]

In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

As you pointed out throughout your posts, the Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen cannot carry out many of the rituals and visible acts of worship of Islam, in addition to the fact that he is exposing himself to temptation because of the permissiveness in those countries that is protected by their laws. The Muslim should not expose himself to temptations and trials. Now, there are other schools of thought that allow this if the Muslim attempts to keep himself free from those temptations. While this is all well and good, and does provide a loophole of sorts, haven't we all been a moth dancing too close to the flame at times? Why invite temptation if one doesn't have to? Why choose to live in lands which abound with temptation on all sides if it isn't absolutely necessary?

If you look at the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah without paying attention to what is really happening in Muslim and kaafir countries, it's hard to place judgments on those living in a non-Muslim lands. To do so is to make a gross generalization of a subject that is very complex. The Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to how closely or otherwise they adhere to the laws of Islam. Rather they vary in that, and even within one country, regions and cities may vary in that regard.

Similarly the non-Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to their permissiveness and moral laxity; they also vary in that regard.

So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the non-Muslim countries, and given that the Muslims, male or female, cannot just up and go to any Muslim country and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some non-Muslim countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general blanket statement, such as has been done in this thread, that will cover all countries and all individuals.

Rather, wouldn't it be best to say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a non-Muslim country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah and will continue to endeavor to migrate if possible.

Here are some comments of Islamic scholars which support this whole topic of Muslims who live in non-Muslim lands:

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about this matter and he said: This is one of the most difficult issues nowadays because countries vary, as stated above, and because for some Muslims, if they go back to their homelands they will be persecuted for their religion whereas they are safe from that in the kaafir countries. But if we say that it is haraam for them to settle among the kuffaar, then where is the Islamic state that will accept them and allow them to settle there?! This is the meaning of what he said, may Allaah have mercy on him.

Zakariya al-Ansaari al-Shaafa’i said in his book Asna al-Mataalib (4/207):

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practise their religion openly.

Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said concerning the hadeeth, “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen”:

This is to be understood as referring to those who are not safe to practise their religion there.

In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (20/206) it says:

Dar al-harb refers to every place in which the rule of kufr prevails. One of the rulings that have to do with dar al-harb is hijrah (migration). With regard to migration from dar al-harb, the fuqaha’ divided people into three categories:

(a) Those who are obliged to migrate: they are those who are able to migrate and who cannot practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is obligatory upon a female even if she does not have a mahram, if she thinks she will be safe when travelling, or if the risk of travelling is less than the risk of staying in dar al-harb…

(b) Those who are not obliged to migrate: they are those who are unable to do so, either because of sickness or because they are forced to stay in the kaafir land, or those who are weak, such as woman and children, because Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:98]

(c) Those for whom migration is mustahabb but not obligatory: they include those who are able to migrate but are also able to practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is mustahabb for such a person to migrate so that he can participate in jihad and increase the numbers of the Muslims.

In a fatwa issued by the Standing Committee (12/50):
One may also migrate from a mushrik land to another mushrik land that is less evil and where there is less danger to the Muslim, as some of the Muslims migrated from Makkah at the Prophet’s command to Abyssinia.

I pray and ask Allah to make a path for those of us who wish to migrate to Muslim lands to give us strength and make us steadfast in adhering to Islam and His true guidance until that day, inshallah, arrives. Ameen.

 

[Tariqa]

Tariqa, Quite respectfully, I will ask you......which Muslim country will allow an American muslim woman to enter in and live? As soon as you can give me the answer, I'll be booking a flight.

You see, I've already done the research.....alot of it. And I keep on researching every year. And instead of finding a country which will welcome foreign Muslims with open arms, I find that the rules and regulations are becoming more and more strict. It is now virtually impossible for a foreigner to enter most Muslim countries to even visit, much less, to take up permanent residence there. The reason being is that since 9-11 and this so-called "war on terror", the violence in the Middle East has escalated to the point where almost all Muslim countries are on the State Department's list of countries which harbor terrorists and access to American (and other) citizens is denied.

So again, I pose the question, which Muslim country will welcome us with open arms?O.K. That was a joke.



Well, you have a valid point here. While I don't see myself as a "lazy" Muslim, I will concede that I have become quite complacent in the continued search to find a way to enter those countries. As I said, about the only other way I know how is to marry a Muslim from that country. If I am not in that country to begin with, how is that possible? Can you offer any viable suggestions besides just telling someone not to give up? Not that that isn't a good start, but I welcome any others that you may have because I've wracked my brain over this for a long time and, to date, have found no viable solutions.

Which brings up another issue. I look forward to the day when Allah (SWT), inshallah, will bring a husband to me. On that day, I hope that he will want to marry me because I am a good Muslim women (among other virtues and qualitites) and NOT because I live in America. So how much worse would a good God-fearing Brother feel if he felt the only reason someone else wanted to marry him was to move to his country? There should be more to the sacred marriage union between two people than that. This is one of the reasons why I have not sought this option out. Having an alterior motive for marriage somehow feels dishonest.

So, like I said.....for me, there is no easy answer here. The one thing I know is that if I remain steadfast in my desire to move, and if my intentions are pure, Allah, (SWT) will help me find a way. I endeavor to have patience until that day arrives.

Now, I hope it doesn't sound as if I am being contentous with you because really I am not. You bring up some important points:

1 – If you live in a non-Muslim land, you should consider leaving because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) disavowed himself of anyone who settles among the mushrikeen. Hence it is haraam for you to stay in the land of kufr, especially those that have moved to them for the sake of work, since that is not one of the legitimate excuses for which you may be allowed to move or stay there.

2 – When choosing a Muslim land to live in, if possible, stive to choose the Muslim land where people adhere most closely to modesty, chastity and commitment to Islam. It is well known that the Muslim lands vary in these matters, and not every country is a place where you could settle, unfortunately, rather that depends on your nationality and the laws of the land.

3 – If you cannot move to that country, then you must fear Allah, may He be exalted, and adhere to His commands in all your affairs, foremost among which must be guarding your families against disintegration and assimilation. You must pay attention to your children, both males and females, give them a good Islamic upbringing and a sense of connection to Islamic history, teach them the rulings of Islam, and teach them Arabic well. While not impossible in America, it's not a walk in the park either......especially since 911.

4 - Whoever stays in the non-Muslim lands must realize that Allah will ask him about his flock on the Day of Resurrection, so let him prepare an answer.

Along with those points are some other things to consider:

One member said he wasn't sure why you posted this topic. I believe the basic underlying principle to this thread is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): “In what (condition) were you?” They reply: “We were weak and oppressed on the earth.” They (angels) say: “Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?” Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:97]

In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

As you pointed out throughout your posts, the Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen cannot carry out many of the rituals and visible acts of worship of Islam, in addition to the fact that he is exposing himself to temptation because of the permissiveness in those countries that is protected by their laws. The Muslim should not expose himself to temptations and trials. Now, there are other schools of thought that allow this if the Muslim attempts to keep himself free from those temptations. While this is all well and good, and does provide a loophole of sorts, haven't we all been a moth dancing too close to the flame at times? Why invite temptation if one doesn't have to? Why choose to live in lands which abound with temptation on all sides if it isn't absolutely necessary?

If you look at the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah without paying attention to what is really happening in Muslim and kaafir countries, it's hard to place judgments on those living in a non-Muslim lands. To do so is to make a gross generalization of a subject that is very complex. The Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to how closely or otherwise they adhere to the laws of Islam. Rather they vary in that, and even within one country, regions and cities may vary in that regard.

Similarly the non-Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to their permissiveness and moral laxity; they also vary in that regard.

So given that the Muslim countries vary, as do the non-Muslim countries, and given that the Muslims, male or female, cannot just up and go to any Muslim country and settle there because of visa and strict settlement laws etc, and that a Muslim may not be able to practice his religion in some Muslim countries, when he may be able to do so in whole or at least in part in some non-Muslim countries – for all these reasons it is impossible to issue a general blanket statement, such as has been done in this thread, that will cover all countries and all individuals.

Rather, wouldn't it be best to say that each Muslim has his own unique set of circumstances and his own ruling that applies to him, and each person is accountable for himself. If he is able to practise his religion in the Muslim country in which he lives more than he can in a non-Muslim country, then it is not permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country. But if it is the other way round, then it is permissible for him to settle in a kaafir country, subject to the condition that he is confident that he can resist the desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah and will continue to endeavor to migrate if possible.

Here are some comments of Islamic scholars which support this whole topic of Muslims who live in non-Muslim lands:

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about this matter and he said: This is one of the most difficult issues nowadays because countries vary, as stated above, and because for some Muslims, if they go back to their homelands they will be persecuted for their religion whereas they are safe from that in the kaafir countries. But if we say that it is haraam for them to settle among the kuffaar, then where is the Islamic state that will accept them and allow them to settle there?! This is the meaning of what he said, may Allaah have mercy on him.

Zakariya al-Ansaari al-Shaafa’i said in his book Asna al-Mataalib (4/207):

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practise their religion openly.

Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said concerning the hadeeth, “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen”:

This is to be understood as referring to those who are not safe to practise their religion there.

In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (20/206) it says:

Dar al-harb refers to every place in which the rule of kufr prevails. One of the rulings that have to do with dar al-harb is hijrah (migration). With regard to migration from dar al-harb, the fuqaha’ divided people into three categories:

(a) Those who are obliged to migrate: they are those who are able to migrate and who cannot practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is obligatory upon a female even if she does not have a mahram, if she thinks she will be safe when travelling, or if the risk of travelling is less than the risk of staying in dar al-harb…

(b) Those who are not obliged to migrate: they are those who are unable to do so, either because of sickness or because they are forced to stay in the kaafir land, or those who are weak, such as woman and children, because Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:98]

(c) Those for whom migration is mustahabb but not obligatory: they include those who are able to migrate but are also able to practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is mustahabb for such a person to migrate so that he can participate in jihad and increase the numbers of the Muslims.

In a fatwa issued by the Standing Committee (12/50):
One may also migrate from a mushrik land to another mushrik land that is less evil and where there is less danger to the Muslim, as some of the Muslims migrated from Makkah at the Prophet’s command to Abyssinia.

I pray and ask Allah to make a path for those of us who wish to migrate to Muslim lands to give us strength and make us steadfast in adhering to Islam and His true guidance until that day, inshallah, arrives. Ameen.

It would be good if this site had a chat line with a microphone like some sites do because typing can get tiresome...Anyway i will try to clarify some things that may have been misconceived.

You are if not 75- 90% right about everything you wrote you are totally right about everything.. I do not disagree with anything you are saying...I just want to make clear that i am not sayng everyone is the same but i am showing that we do not need to give people 100 excuse when we can generally put almost everyone in the world into 3 main categories as the scholars have mentioned..

First off i want to address the dilemmas of the Muslim lands. I do know the restrictions and difficulties surrounding many Muslim lands indeed.. I'm sure you study every year as i am studying every year and not only researching but i am trying to make attempts to get over.. It is easier for a male and easier for a female with a husband indeed..
Let me make this clear as i will personally tell you what i plan to do and what i think many Muslims can and should do if they are not allowed to enter into a Muslim land for any reason then i suggest that they find a land closer to that Muslim land of desired choice whether it be a non Muslim land or not, and settle in that land that is closer to the Muslim land of desired choice to reduce the sin of the current land that person lives in. For example if any Muslim is living in America where they are at war with Muslims and things then it would be best for an American Muslim to leave that land to a land such as Morocco or Egypt, even Sweden or France just to get closer to the ummah as long as that land is not worst.. Try an African country or something but anything to reduce that sin indeed..Even if you do not get into the Muslim country at least you would be one step closer and one sin less to achieving your goals..Eventually there will be some opportunity for you inshallah if you keep trying and stay consistent and have the intention to make it out.. It is only the people that say it is OK to live in these lands with no excuse that i combat and those that never intend to leave..

 

[KelleyD]

Let me make this clear as i will personally tell you what i plan to do and what i think many Muslims can and should do if they are not allowed to enter into a Muslim land for any reason then i suggest that they find a land closer to that Muslim land of desired choice whether it be a non Muslim land or not, and settle in that land that is closer to the Muslim land of desired choice to reduce the sin of the current land that person lives in. For example if any Muslim is living in America where they are at war with Muslims and things then it would be best for an American Muslim to leave that land to a land such as Morocco or Egypt, even Sweden or France just to get closer to the ummah as long as that land is not worst.. Try an African country or something but anything to reduce that sin indeed..Even if you do not get into the Muslim country at least you would be one step closer and one sin less to achieving your goals..Eventually there will be some opportunity for you inshallah if you keep trying and stay consistent and have the intention to make it out.. It is only the people that say it is OK to live in these lands with no excuse that i combat and those that never intend to leave..

Yes. I understand what you are saying now. You are saying that even if you can't make it to the Muslim country of choice, that the lesser of the two evils is better. The basic principle is that it is haraam to settle among the mushrikeen and in their land. If Allah makes it easy for a person to move from such a country to a Muslim country, then he should not prefer that which is inferior [i.e., living in a non-Muslim country] to that which is better [living in a Muslim country].

And also that while the odds may seem insurmountable, remember that whoever gives up a thing for the sake of Allah (SWT), Allah (SWT) will compensate him with something better, and that with hardship comes ease, and that whosoever fears Allah (SWT) and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out from every difficulty, and He will provide him with sources he never could imagine. And to also remember not to be overly preoccupied with material things and making a profit because that may cost you more in the end. That preserving one’s deen is better than taking a risk in the hope of making a profit in a non-Muslim country. A Muslim’s biggest gain is his religion, and he should not risk it for the sake of some transient worldly gain.

Thanks for reminding me of those important values.

 

[Tariqa]

Your welcome.. I pray that Allah also makes it easy on the women of this ummah. It would be nice if the women and men could Make the hijrah in their hearts and minds first before making it on their limbs
I think that is the real issue that some people become hopeless and say its impossible this and that and they seem really frantic and what not but we know the odds are against us but great minds think pass what is not possible and find ways that are... I was proposing to many Muslims to just leave their lands even if Saudi Arabia was not available try the next country closest to Saudi Arabia that is possible to get in..The lesser of two evils is something we should always strive for more so than bargaining and bidding in products..


I do think that if we give up what Allah hates and trust in Allah Allah will make it easy for us.. I do see that somehow Allah will provide for those seeking ways overseas inshaallah and others seeking Muslim lands... and even these seeking "Muslim Muslim lands" if you know what i mean inhale so lets keep trying, no matter how bleak it seems..

Honestly i have made preparations to move to an African country that is less a fitnah than America and is closer to Saudi Arabia.. I believe that will be a better situation than where i live now.. Plus being in a place like America for those who are trying to save up millions to move to a land like Saudi and never leave remember that the income in places like America is very doubtful so all that money we are saving up may be worthless overseas for halal cause even so in the eyes of allah..so may Allah guide us to right path and show us the way..

 

[rpwelton]

First off i just wanted to quote a few statements this brother has made..
Ill admit in a land such as America you are "free" to do what you like.. Is is easier in lands such as US to do what you like?? No it is not.. You are confusing freedom with difficulty... In America it is harder to practice those same freedoms you do admit we have..The truth is even though we are allowed to make our 5 salats and grow beards, many companies also have the right to not hire you in many cases.. they may be sued but freedom only goes so far...As for mosques it is not as easy to live in Muslim communities, the ones that do then mashallah.. It is also not so easy to find halal jobs as you said the restaurants that sell pig prevail and the halal restaurants are the minority in many places... It is hard for many Muslims to find halal incomes and halal places to shop in these lands that are prevailing with flith....

It is hard for many Muslims to find halal banking environments, halal shops, halal many things because Islam is the minority in non Muslim lands.. This is why we say 1# that it is easier to practice Islam in a Muslim land and that 2# it may be obligatory because whether or not you are free to practice your religion in a non Muslim land or not, the mere living situation with non Muslims is not allowed in Islam You are choosing non Muslims as your neighbors over Muslims.. This in Islam with no valid reason is not acceptable.. Muslims are not allowed to live wherever they choose to live, Muslims are only allowed to be Muslims wherever they are..

For anyone to sit in here and say that a Muslim is allowed to live among disbelievers, ask them how?? How can a Muslim carry out shariah law in a land of disbelievers??? Shariah law is apart of Islam and it is not allowed under the regime of a kufr system.. The kufr's are in charge and you must obey their laws.. That goes for Taxes, insurance for cars, photos for licenses, marriage laws. Hope about the fact that Muslims are supposed to change the evils that are being done in their lands?? If a Muslim lives in a land with immorality he has no way of changing that evil because the kufrs are in charge.. He cannot fully practice that part of his deen...School systems and non mixing areas.. It makes it really hard for Muslims living in this situation and Muslims are not supposed to make it hard on themselves...

So what do we do just go broke?? No there are ways around paying taxes but it takes some work....The scholars say that it is permissible to obey these laws if you live in a land and you have no choice but to obey, laws such as taxes but this applies for the one that was born in the land and people of the like that have no means or plan to leave.. But they only do enough until they can leave and when they have the mean,which many do, they leave wherever is available to leave to, the lesser evil lands, as so as possible...By no means does this mean a person can immigrate to a non Muslim land and pay the tax because its a law.. He should not have came over here in the first place knowing the situations thats going on today...
Even in this permissions there are exceptions....


In the end there is an easy answer..we leave these lands instead of going under poverty.. how weak would the Muslims be if to avoid paying taxes we harmed ourselves with poverty.. Leave the land for thats they easy way out and stop trying to justify everything and get around rulings by playing with the laws of allah....We are not allowed in Islam to live like this so to make it easy we leave however we can in an Islamic manner..

If the next person responds and tells me that there is nowhere to go i may call him a liar because there are better places to go then places like America, there are smaller lands, that are cheaper with lesser evils...If you cannot now then do not say that it is permissible to live in a evil land because you cant find anything else but close your mouth and accept that you are living in sin and make the intention to leave these haram places first and then strive to find a better place...


















Why is that the Muslims keep asking me which Muslim nation i live in.. Do they not think that i have such a keen insight on whats going on if i did not live in these same lands of flith..??? I should be more entitled to speak then any scholar for i know what is going on, i know what is the deal in these lands and with the state of the ummah with my own eyes, i know i have seen, i am trying, i have tried..


Where i live does not matter, what i am doing to help the Muslims is not just for the Muslims, it is for us all. i am trying to rally support among all Muslims to at least recognize that we do have a problem and understand what the solution is to this problem.. Once we understand this then we can figure how we will execute this knowledge but first we must all understand what needs to be done...

I take it that you either live in America or another Western country, from the wording of your last two paragraphs. You then, must be doing something about your situation then, is that right? What country are you planning to move to (or more specifically, what city?)

A point about halal businesses. My friend, do you know anything about Islamic banking? Do you know that for the most part it's a sham, and that even in the Muslim world interest-based banking exists and is prevalent? I have yet to hear of a truly Islamic financial institution that has sprung up anywhere in the world. I'm sure they are out there, but the huge Islamic banking operations that you hear about in the Middle East and Malaysia are basically just a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The main reason I would move to an Islamic country is for knowledge. I want to study under some great Shayukhs and really learn this religion. Food is another reason I would move to a Muslim country. It's so hard worrying about what you eat. Even in secular Muslim countries like Turkey and extremely Westernized places like Dubai almost all food is 100% halal (although watch out for the American districts; they serve pork and alcohol).

As for earning a halal income, it is easier in a Muslim country, but there are still many non-halal places to work in Muslim lands. I think working in a restaurant or market is the safest way to earn a halal income, since so many other aspects of Islamic societies have been touched by the West. Banking, clothing, music...it's all there in Muslim lands.

I just read your most recent post and you mention an African country. Africa is probably the place with the least fitnah, but just where in Africa exactly? There are many poor and impoverished nations (and many that are torn apart by civil wars). If we're moving to avoid poverty in the US, we don't want to be moving to a place where we'll be even poorer and in an unfamiliar land. Please give us some insight so we can benefit insha Allah.

Do not get me wrong, I want to live in a more Islamic society. My wife and I keep talking about either moving abroad or moving to a more Islamic community within the US in a few years insha Allah. But I want to find a place where I can truly grow in my deen and have a true Islamic experience.

 

[Muezzin]

Do you think it is permissible for a Muslim to live around corruption from shirk to music, to fornication to murder???

Shirk, music, fornication and murder all exist in Muslim lands too.

No the Muslims may not be lazying it up but do you see any of the Muslims rallying together, organizing many minority Muslims to be a voice, a means to get to a Muslim country????

What are things like this forum if not a rallying together?

I don't know about it being a means to get a Muslim country. That's not the point.

Many of the Muslims think of leaving to a Muslim land as "something nice" something they would like to do... The Muslim in these non Muslim countries are making no effort to leave their home or new lands??? Nothing above and beyond.. They are sort of waiting for a chance to leave, do you see any who's actually fighting to live among the ummah????

Difficult is not an excuse.. We are to fight difficulty not just accept our miserable states..

I was born and live in a 'non-Muslim land'. It is my home. There are many others in the same situation. Which means there are plenty of other Muslims around to mix with.

Let me make this clear as i will personally tell you what i plan to do and what i think many Muslims can and should do if they are not allowed to enter into a Muslim land for any reason then i suggest that they find a land closer to that Muslim land of desired choice whether it be a non Muslim land or not, and settle in that land that is closer to the Muslim land of desired choice to reduce the sin of the current land that person lives in. For example if any Muslim is living in America where they are at war with Muslims and things then it would be best for an American Muslim to leave that land to a land such as Morocco or Egypt, even Sweden or France just to get closer to the ummah as long as that land is not worst.. Try an African country or something but anything to reduce that sin indeed..Even if you do not get into the Muslim country at least you would be one step closer and one sin less to achieving your goals..Eventually there will be some opportunity for you inshallah if you keep trying and stay consistent and have the intention to make it out.. It is only the people that say it is OK to live in these lands with no excuse that i combat and those that never intend to leave..

I kind of see where you're coming from, but a person's imaan level does not necessarily increase the closer they get to a given Muslim country's geographical location.

Also, if you accept that some people never intend to leave, what exactly is the point of combating them? The hostile, finger-pointing approach doesn't tend to convince people, especially in writing.

 

[Woodrow]

Tariqa,

I am slowly seeing where you are coming from. It appears you are directing you comments more to Muslims that left Islamic countries to live in the West. I agree that many of them should not have done so, but there are those who had no choice.

I think those who left their home lands with the goal of gaining material wealth are in error and should return to their homelands.

Now for those of us who are reverts or the Children of reverts, we face a different obstacle, we have no Muslim homeland to return to, this is our homeland. I think here it is our responsibility to keep our Muslim communities as Islamic as possible and not engage in the secular activities that are Haram. Other religions have successfully done so. Especially the Amish who have Amish communities, shun all modern conveniences, even shun electricity, motor operated appliances, Automobiles and pay no Taxes. If the Amish can do it, so can we.

 

[Muezzin]

It is hard for many Muslims to find halal banking environments, halal shops, halal many things because Islam is the minority in non Muslim lands.. This is why we say 1# that it is easier to practice Islam in a Muslim land and that 2# it may be obligatory because whether or not you are free to practice your religion in a non Muslim land or not, the mere living situation with non Muslims is not allowed in Islam

Have you got anything to back this up, other than your opinion, to which you are entitled?

You are choosing non Muslims as your neighbors over Muslims.. This in Islam with no valid reason is not acceptable.. Muslims are not allowed to live wherever they choose to live, Muslims are only allowed to be Muslims wherever they are..

I don't understand what you mean.

If you're saying, 'Muslims are not allowed to choose where they live, Muslims must live with other Muslims', that doesn't really gel with the whole 'All Muslims should choose to live in Muslim lands'.

For anyone to sit in here and say that a Muslim is allowed to live among disbelievers, ask them how?? How can a Muslim carry out shariah law in a land of disbelievers??? Shariah law is apart of Islam and it is not allowed under the regime of a kufr system..

The hijab is also a part of Islam, but earlier you said words to the effect of 'it's only one part'. That was in reply to a post describing the ban of the hijab in Turkey, an ostensibly Muslim country.

Also, does that mean according to you, a Muslim country is only that which administers Sharia law?

Or if, say, George W. Bush, Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy were to become Muslim, that would make their respective countries Muslim by default?

The kufr's are in charge and you must obey their laws..

Just a side note: You mean 'Kafirs' not 'Kufr'. 'Kufr' means a state of unbelief, rather than an unbeliever.

That goes for Taxes, insurance for cars, photos for licenses, marriage laws.

If people don't like these things, they can move to a place where they do. Or they could try and change them.

Hope about the fact that Muslims are supposed to change the evils that are being done in their lands?? If a Muslim lives in a land with immorality he has no way of changing that evil because the kufrs are in charge.. He cannot fully practice that part of his deen...School systems and non mixing areas.. It makes it really hard for Muslims living in this situation and Muslims are not supposed to make it hard on themselves...

So those who find it hard should move to a place where they find it easy. I see no reason for a diaspora of Muslims into Muslim lands.

So what do we do just go broke?? No there are ways around paying taxes but it takes some work....

I do hope you're not suggesting anything illegal. Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is not.

The scholars say that it is permissible to obey these laws if you live in a land and you have no choice but to obey, laws such as taxes but this applies for the one that was born in the land and people of the like that have no means or plan to leave.. But they only do enough until they can leave and when they have the mean,which many do, they leave wherever is available to leave to, the lesser evil lands, as so as possible...By no means does this mean a person can immigrate to a non Muslim land and pay the tax because its a law.. He should not have came over here in the first place knowing the situations thats going on today...

If he should not have come here in the first place, then there is no reason why he should not comply with the law of the land. If he does not like the law of the land, he should not have come in the first place.

You see?

Leave the land for thats they easy way out and stop trying to justify everything and get around rulings by playing with the laws of allah....

Yet just sentences ago you were talking about there being 'exceptions' even with that which is permitted.

We are not allowed in Islam to live like this so to make it easy we leave however we can in an Islamic manner..

If the next person responds and tells me that there is nowhere to go i may call him a liar because there are better places to go then places like America, there are smaller lands, that are cheaper with lesser evils...If you cannot now then do not say that it is permissible to live in a evil land because you cant find anything else but close your mouth and accept that you are living in sin and make the intention to leave these haram places first and then strive to find a better place...

The Internet is rife with self-righteous messages. The thing is, they're not very convincing.

The reason I say this is self-righteous is because you've got on the proverbial high-horse and told others to shut their mouths if they dare disagree.

In writing, that's not the way to convince people to do anything.

Why is that the Muslims keep asking me which Muslim nation i live in.. Do they not think that i have such a keen insight on whats going on if i did not live in these same lands of flith..??? I should be more entitled to speak then any scholar for i know what is going on, i know what is the deal in these lands and with the state of the ummah with my own eyes, i know i have seen, i am trying, i have tried..

It's good you're trying.

Where i live does not matter, what i am doing to help the Muslims is not just for the Muslims, it is for us all. i am trying to rally support among all Muslims to at least recognize that we do have a problem and understand what the solution is to this problem.. Once we understand this then we can figure how we will execute this knowledge but first we must all understand what needs to be done...

I'm not convinced that the immediate emigration of all Muslims to Muslim lands is what needs to be done.

 

[rpwelton]

Now for those of us who are reverts or the Children of reverts, we face a different obstacle, we have no Muslim homeland to return to, this is our homeland. I think here it is our responsibility to keep our Muslim communities as Islamic as possible and not engage in the secular activities that are Haram. Other religions have successfully done so. Especially the Amish who have Amish communities, shun all modern conveniences, even shun electricity, motor operated appliances, Automobiles and pay no Taxes. If the Amish can do it, so can we.

I agree. It's much like the idea of African-American slaves "going home" when they were freed during the time of slavery in America. Many times they were second and third generation and did not know Africa as a home.

In regards to the Amish, we as Muslims have to be conscious not to separate ourselves completely from society as the Amish do. If we are to live here, we must reach out to the non-Muslims whilst keeping our deen intact as much as possible. While we are here, it is our responsibility to give dawah to others.

 

[Woodrow]

In regards to the Amish, we as Muslims have to be conscious not to separate ourselves completely from society as the Amish do. If we are to live here, we must reach out to the non-Muslims whilst keeping our deen intact as much as possible. While we are here, it is our responsibility to give dawah to others.

Ameen to that. You are correct.

The Amish have isolated themselves from American society and have no interaction with other people. We do need to keep sufficient interaction to share Islam with any seekers.

 

[aadil77]

sorry to answer the question about the money issue.... yes it is true we have to find places to go..there are places that exsit or even if we cannot find thew best muslim lands to go to we can find better lands to go to then non muslim majority lands... I think that many muslims think about one particular land and then immediatly judge all other lands based off of the perception of the former.. this is a weak mentality...we must continue to strive and strive hard and one door closes continue to find other ways in.. It can be done if the muslims continue to search and not give up using the mentality that there is nowhere to go or we have so many problems.. cant is not a word right??? We can!




We can set the example of finding in allah in the lands allah has made sacred rather can we not indeed??

What lands has Allah made sacred? Are you suggesting 2 billion muslims move to Makkah and Madina?

Allah has made this whole planet for us to dwell in, don't you feel proud that you can go to almost any part of the world and find muslims?
There would be no dawah if there were no muslims in a country. Where does it say anywhere that its unpermissable live in non muslim lands?

Provide some proofs before you claim that we are sinning by living in non muslim lands

 

[aadil77]

I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....

Have you ever left your 'muslim' land? you're under the impression that only certain lands are for us muslims. I can go to any part of the world and practice my religion FULLY and thats the jihad that muslims carry out everday whether its in muslim lands or not. I don't know whats up with you, dunno if you're angy with the west or what

 

[rpwelton]

Have you ever left your 'muslim' land? you're under the impression that only certain lands are for us muslims. I can go to any part of the world and practice my religion FULLY and thats the jihad that muslims carry out everday whether its in muslim lands or not. I don't know whats up with you, dunno if you're angy with the west or what

From what I understand, Tariqa lives in the West and is intending to move to a Muslim country in Africa, although he has not specified where exactly.

 

[aadil77]

Mister you may not also understand.. You say that there are pious Muslims in Texas?? Why for the sake of Allah would a Muslim leave Saudi to come live in a "Islamic" city in America??? And you say they are pious..???? It wouldn't matter if there was a city that was 100% Muslim, as long as the city is under the democratic, non Muslim, kufr rule then they are living under hypocrisy and disbelief every single day supporting the most evil of regimes...no matter how many prayers they make the, boss is non Muslim, and he s in charge, and the 100% Muslim city's are working for a 100% kufr leader and this is not acceptable in Islam..

What is the excuse that there is no where to go?? Of all states there is no where on the spacious earth to leave to.. ??? So what you plan to just wait until the Mahdi comes??? When will that be?? We do not know so how can anyone just say there is no hope on our parts.. This lazy mentality is the reason Muslims today are behind indeed..They give up and put trust in Allah before even tieing the camel...You cant say theres no real hope you must say that i will continue to struggle even if my money keeps running out... Deal with the hardships of the corrupt Muslim countries because it is easier than living in a non Muslim country the struggles are allot harder... You cannot give up you must continue to strive and find ways to enter these countries..

Who said anything about moving from saudi to texas?

no matter how many prayers they make.... what? they won't be accepted?

Islam is not gonna spread by muslims evacuating themselves from non-muslim countries, you don't get hundreds of thousands of people becoming muslim out of no where

You're making it sound as if we're doing some kind of kufr by living in these countries

think before you speak