Muslims using Western Psychology and Mental Illness: Permissible or lies?

[doorster]

.. I am not a crack pot ...

can you prove it?

Again to the admin who is saying or is stating that depression is cause by chemical imbalances i say prove it.... You forget mister that depression is not a law..

if there is NO real mental illness then why did Allah and his Prophet prohibit punishments for crimes by the mentally ill (except in afghani/saudi/iranian practice due to distorted versions of Islam)?

edit:

and why was first ever psychiatric hospital in the world opened by Muslims?
eace:

 

[Snowflake]

Actually, psychiatry has a proud early history in Islam. It was islamic psychological thought that lead to the establishment of first mental hospitals. Terms like psychology didn't exist at that time. However in their works muslim scholars wrote extensively about human psychology under 'diseases of the mind and their cures' (al-‘ilaj al-nafs) the self, psyche etc... So 'mental illness' is not a new theory and no offence, but your knowledge cannot compare to great physicians like Ibn Sinna who has described many mental disorders in his 'Qanun of Medicine' which was one of the most famous books in the history of medicine and remained so for centuries.


In shariah law too, rights and obligations depend on a persons legal competence which depends largely on intellectual competence. The mentally retarded/insane cannot be considered fit for practical functions and the degree of mental capacity varies from person to person and has to be assessed by a psychologist etc.

P.S. Ibn Sinna described love as one of the 'mental disorders' lol ;D

 

[north_malaysian]

my sister is a psychology officer at a ministry in Malaysia...

she graduated from the same university with me, Int'l Islamic Univ. Malaysia.... with a degree in psychology...

i dont think that psychology is unislamic as it's being offered in an Islamic university...

 

[جوري]

There is alot of crap in Psychiatry it is true but there is concrete of science too
we've made strides in the portion of psychiatry that touches upon neuroscience..

Can Klüver-Bucy syndrome cause behavioral problems? You bet and indeed it is linked to damage to both of the anterior temporal lobes of the brain!
Can Progressive Multifocal Leukoencephalopathy cause behavioral problems? sure it can
Can schizophrenia cause behavioral problems? you bet
How about Parkinson? sure
How about Lewy body dementia, Huntington syndrome? Alzheimer's-- you bet
How about Seizures and all its subtypes? Of course.. are they all provable by palpable science.. Many aren't -- some found out posthumously through autopsies if allowed!

I need not sit here and list chapters in the field of Psychiatry to make a point, but will pose you this question.. Can you personally prove to anyone especially a health care professional when you have a headache? or when your headache comes with changes in visual patterns better known as 'scintillating scotoma'? We have no Headache-O-Meters in the field of medicine and folks personally have to go on your subjective sensation of pain.. I am sure all of us have collectively experienced a headache-- can any of us prove it?...

I will not argue against some of the floating bull **** theories in psychology but psychiatry is an actual field of medicine, has its esoterics but I recommend you walk around the psych. ward every now and then, see for yourself how exactly it is that as you proclaim it is against Islam or any religion at all for that matter, and whether or not these folks need help or can simply while away their delusions with prayers?

to every Ailment there is a cure, so tells us prophet Mohammed SAW.. I think perhaps you should re-consider before in a massive sweep reducing an entire science to an illusory feat!

my two cents

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

 

[Woodrow]

I apologize if anyone has misunderstood me.. I am not a crack pot nor does anyone hear me issuing fatwas though they are accusing me of issuing fatwas. If you take a look at each of my post, i only bring the problem to the attention of the Muslim so we can discuss. If anyone says anything wrong that is when i combat that because we cannot discuss anything when someone thinks what they are saying is an opinion when it is clearly a fact.....

I accept you are expressing your opinion and not trying to give fatwa or interpret any fatwas. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to express it. But, it seems some thought you were expressing the teachings of scholars and some fatwas that have been issued

To the miss who would like proof, it seems you do not understand my view.. You see i am the one that denies mental illness as being a real disease because the experts of mental illness all say that there is not enough proof at this time to prove of its existence, and it has been like this for over 150 years since the beginning of the theory, no breakthroughs have been discovered to this day..

I can not speak for the Miss, only for myself. Having worked in the field of physiological psychology for a number of years before my retirement in 1999 I feel I am qualified to express my findings from the more than one cadaver I dissected. From my personal findings I did find significant changes in the brain tissue from those diagnosed with clinical depression, Bi-Polar disorder and Schizophrenia. I will not quote from my own writings but from those of some of my former collegues and/or mentors.

First from Dr. Jose Delgado one of the pioneers in neuro anatomy and a leading physician in the treatment of epilepsy (which at one time was considered a psychiatric disorder)

Another brain-implantation pioneer, José Manuel Rodríguez Delgado, described how he induced the same effect in reverse: when a particular point on a heterosexual man’s brain was stimulated, the subject expressed doubt about his sexual identity, even suggesting he wanted to marry his male interviewer and saying, “I’d like to be a girl.”

That experiment is described in Delgado’s riveting 1969 book, Physical Control of the Mind. A flamboyant Spanish-born Yale neuroscientist, Delgado, like Heath, began exploring in the 1950s the electrical stimulation of the reward and aversion centers in humans and animals—what he called “heaven and hell within the brain.” Like Heath, Delgado tells stories of patients whose moods shifted after their brains were stimulated—some becoming friendlier or flirtatious, others becoming fearful or angry. He describes artificially inducing anxiety in one woman so that she kept looking behind her and said “she felt a threat and thought that something horrible was going to happen.” In other patients, Delgado triggered hallucinations and déjà vu

Source:http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-age-of-neuroelectronics .

Dr. Delgado's work opened the doors of physiological psychology and pointed that changes various areas of the mimiced various mental disorders and/or could be used to trat same. Bringing about the realization that mental disorders have a physical basis.

Please miss tell me what you would like proof on because you are asking exactly what i am asking.. i would like proof.. I am asking to the person that says clinical depression is caused by such and such to give me a lab test right now from the INTERNET like xrays can see tumors.. bring us all a picture and statistics numbers that prove what you say is true..
You see miss i cannot prove mental illness is not true because the doctors cannot prove that it is true.. confusing is it?? Until they do not prove it i stand corrected...

Again I can not speak for the miss, but some symptoms of clinical depression are:

Symptoms of depression include:

Loss of interest in normal daily activities
Feeling sad or down
Feeling hopeless
Crying spells for no apparent reason
Problems sleeping
Trouble focusing or concentrating
Difficulty making decisions
Unintentional weight gain or loss
Irritability
Restlessness
Being easily annoyed
Feeling fatigued or weak
Feeling worthless
Loss of interest in sex
Thoughts of suicide or suicidal behavior
Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headaches

Some of the suspected causes are:

Biochemical. Some evidence from high-tech imaging studies indicates that people with depression have physical changes in their brains. The significance of these changes is still uncertain but may eventually help pinpoint causes. The naturally occurring brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which are linked to mood, also may play a role in depression. Hormonal imbalances also could be a culprit.
Genes. Some studies show that depression is more common in people whose biological family members also have the condition. Researchers are trying to find genes that may be involved in causing depression.
Environment. Environment is also thought to play a causal role in some way. Environmental causes are situations in your life that are difficult to cope with, such as the loss of a loved one, financial problems and high stress. Source: http://www.revolutionhealth.com/conditions/mental-behavioral-health/depression/causes/causes?section=section_02

I include the above mainly because I found similar biochemical changes in the brains I dissected that came from people who where known to have suffered from depression.

As far as diagnosing Clinical Depression it is complicated and requires a battery of both physical exams and personal interview as the physical symptoms can be identical to the symptoms of other diseases. However the physical diagnosis is needed to diagnose a person as having clinical depression.

I wanted to give the findings of some of the researchers in the field of Deprssion, However the person I believe the most qualified is now deceased and I can not find any of her writings. She was a fellow student with me in our undergraduate days her name is Dr. Anna Marie Singdahlsen. She passed away in 1995.

Again to the admin who is saying or is stating that depression is cause by chemical imbalances i say prove it.... You forget mister that depression is not a law.. in every case you will not find anything wrong with the limbic system. not in a one or 2 patients but in millions of patients you will not find anything wrong with their limbic system and they will still be diagnosed with depression.. so how do you explain the patients that have been diagnoses with depression and their blood test, cat scans, mri's, and x rays all test negative for any disorder biological?? And statistics make this number allot higher so i assure you it is no coninceidence...

In every brain I examened of people diagnosed with clinical depression, I found changes in the limbic system. I was not the only psychologist to find the same.

Neuropsychophysiological Explanations:

The consistent finding of neuropsycholphysiological studies of depression is that abnormally low levels of neurotransmitters - mainly norepinepherine, dopamine and serotonin - appear to be linked to depression. Other findings correlate with an imbalance of the thalamocortical circuiting and feedback and gating circuits. In the depressed state the overactive circuits represent autonomous and exaggerated activity of prefrontal or basal ganglia circuits that code for negative imagery of self and the larger world3..

Work as early as 1937 (Papez, 1937) suggested that reverberations through the limbic system were responsible for generating emotional activity. And subsequent studies as well as PET investigations in 1992 by Drevets et.al., found that increased blood flow through the amygdala may be a trait marker for depressive disorders whether depression is manifest or not. Drevets, in comparing his findings to other neurophysiological data available, suggests that the functioning of a prefrontal-amygdala-medial dorsal thalmic circuitry is overactive in a depressed individual's brain3.. CT studies by Schlegal & Ketzschmar in 1987 cited ventricular enlargement in unipolar as well as bipolar depression
Source: http://www.angelfire.com/journal/ldps/Depression.htm

I see you cannot prove that what you have said is a fact so in Islam you are lying.. Any Muslim that makes a statement and passes that statement of as a factual statement even if it is true and does not have the proof nor does he know himself, he is a liar... I'm sorry mister but even the doctors do not claim to know what cause depression or any disorder they only have suspicions or hypothesis, good guess, studies and predictions, but no real proof..

I consider my own findings and the agreement of my collegues as proof of a physical basis for clinical depression. As I stated before I was not the only researcher and Psychologist to come to the same conclusions.

So mister next time you explain to us what cause depression you should remember to say first that this is what you think or believe or you should say that scientist believe or studies indicate but never should a Muslim make a statement and act as if it is true and have no proof to back this statement up subanallah...may Allah forgive the weak actions of the Muslims indeed..

I am stating what I saw with my own eyes as a scientist and Psychologist. the physical facts are there, if you care to look.

Here is an image of a CAT scan showing the differences in the brain of a clinicaly depressed person and a person not diagnosed with it.

This is from the Mayo clinic

Again for those that want proof please explain to me what proof you are looking for because i am not here making anything up or making any fatwas...actually you never hear me make any rulings at all in this thread i do not think so if you accuse me of something i do not do may the angle invoke the wrath of Allah upon those accusing me of what is not true and clear my name ameen...

I will accept your word as a Muslim that your intent is being misunderstood by some of us. For that I apologise and accept your sincerity in posting

For those statements about the middle east.. i do not need to know what goes on over there.. it is a shame that some of you Muslims think that if a Muslim drink more alcohol overseas in a Muslim land and the non Muslims do not, you all would say that the Muslim land is worst then the non Muslim land?? subannallah does not Allah say that the best non Muslims is always worst then the worst Muslim.. no matter how many sins go on overseas they are our brothers in Islam and never should we degrade them so much as to put them below in the eyes of Allah under a filthy kafir for anything and raise the non Muslim who does not even believe in a god over the Muslims that at least knows who his creator is..may Allah also forgive those statements indeed...

Just from personal experience I find it to be impossible for me to live as a Muslim in the Muslim countries I have lived in or visited. There are some cities that are exceptions such as Makkah, Medina, and Fez. I find it is impossible for me to get a residency visa for Makkah or Medinah so they are out. Fez is a dream and a possibility, but not too realistic because of my age and limited income. But, I have not given up hope of moving to Fez one day Inshallah. This is one reason I keep Fez in my signature if you scroll down on it.

again i do not think all medication is bad.. remember black seed was recommend for Muslims to take.. if black seed is permissible then how can i be against medications.. however i think society has became so intoxicated with the prescribing and using of drugs i think Allah will punish many nations for their medical habits as it has become extremely sick the way Nations are wasting and spending on medical drugs,which if pateints are not commiting mass suicide upon deaths but are commiting mass murders giving this poision to many loved ones or hated ones indeed it is disgusting .. mental illness is proof in itself that the drugging of societies have become so widespread and common that one does not even need proof anymore to diagnoses a person with a disorder and immediately get him so high out of his mind, he would never remember any disorders he might have been accused of having in the first place....what a true shame it is indeed.

Sadly I do agree with you, in many cases patients are overly medicated. I can give reasons but not any justifications as to why that happens. I no longer take any medications, not even aspirins. Currently the only medical devices I use are the hearing aides and eyeglasses I have been prescribed.

I do agree my attitude towards medications is extreme and should not be followed by most people. Prudent medication is a necessity for some people.

Until there comes to the table real solid proof of mental illness we may continue to think it is nothing more than a pseudoscience.. the statistic are staggering and so many people are dying from misdiagnosing its certified enough to be called a crises at this point ... this is not a matter of choice.. our peoples and humanities peoples lives are at stake here if we do not stand up against this inhumane treatment to mankind at once.. may Allah protect us from the evils of this modern world and from the false indoctrination that has fell upon the minds of the communities in society

Having spent a good bit of my life as a psychologist, I disagree with you about it being a pseudoscience. It is a fairly new field to be recognized as a bonafide science and until the early 20th century it was considered to be a field of philosophy. but, it gained the recognition of being a science when the early researchers proved that the findings were quantified, measurable and could be replicated.

 

[Zamtsa]

Syaikh Nashir Al Albaani in one of his fatwa had praised Psychology, what he hated from it was the Philosophy of it, like Socrates', Plato's and Hypocrates', better to learn Islam's Psychology which is in the book of Tazkiyatun Nufus by syaikhul Islam Ibn Taimiyyah.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

 

[Woodrow]

Syaikh Nashir Al Albaani in one of his fatwa had praised Psychology, what he hated from it was the Philosophy of it, like Socrates', Plato's and Hypocrates', better to learn Islam's Psychology which is in the book of Tazkiyatun Nufus by syaikhul Islam Ibn Taimiyyah.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

It is true that in the not very distant past psychology was a branch of philosophy. However, these days most if not all psychologists have been taught it as a science and follow the same basic premed criteria as Medical doctors. But there are at least 85 different fields of psychology and numerous disciplines in each field, so it is possible that a person can run into a psychologist who seems to be more of a philosopher than a scientist.

The rule is exam the credentials of any person who labels himself a psychologist and do not be afraid to ask questions. Not all who call themselves psychologists are psychologists. In the USA ask to see his/her membership card for the APA (American Psychological Association) do not be fooled by APA cards for the American Psychotherapists Association. A psychotherapist may not be a psychologist.

 

[Tariqa]

I accept you are expressing your opinion and not trying to give fatwa or interpret any fatwas. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to express it. But, it seems some thought you were expressing the teachings of scholars and some fatwas that have been issued

Again i apologize and it is true some of what i was saying was completely from my thoughts and some were a mix between things i feel and what also many scholars do as well..

I can not speak for the Miss, only for myself. Having worked in the field of physiological psychology for a number of years before my retirement in 1999 I feel I am qualified to express my findings from the more than one cadaver I dissected. From my personal findings I did find significant changes in the brain tissue from those diagnosed with clinical depression, Bi-Polar disorder and Schizophrenia. I will not quote from my own writings but from those of some of my former collegues and/or mentors.


I understand your studies leads you to believe that mental illnesses are in fact biological due to those test but how can you use those test against statistics.. Remember the statistics shows that majority of the mentally ill patients do not test for any abnormality in brain activity..Can you use your studies as facts for the entire population of mental illness?? you can not but at least you can have strong opinions but not facts.. not even scholars have facts on their opinions thats why they call it differences of opinions... its not 100% prove but 99.9% is good enough in this case of mental illness its more like 20 to 45%..if even that high sadly

First from Dr. Jose Delgado one of the pioneers in neuro anatomy and a leading physician in the treatment of epilepsy (which at one time was considered a psychiatric disorder)


Dr. Delgado's work opened the doors of physiological psychology and pointed that changes various areas of the mimiced various mental disorders and/or could be used to trat same. Bringing about the realization that mental disorders have a physical basis.

I think you mean to say that mental disorders could or show strong signs, not that his work proved the theory right because if he proved it then we would not be differing today..

Again I can not speak for the miss, but some symptoms of clinical depression are:

Symptoms of depression include:

Loss of interest in normal daily activities
Feeling sad or down
Feeling hopeless
Crying spells for no apparent reason
Problems sleeping
Trouble focusing or concentrating
Difficulty making decisions
Unintentional weight gain or loss
Irritability
Restlessness
Being easily annoyed
Feeling fatigued or weak
Feeling worthless
Loss of interest in sex
Thoughts of suicide or suicidal behavior
Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headaches

Some of the suspected causes are:

Biochemical. Some evidence from high-tech imaging studies indicates that people with depression have physical changes in their brains. The significance of these changes is still uncertain but may eventually help pinpoint causes. The naturally occurring brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which are linked to mood, also may play a role in depression. Hormonal imbalances also could be a culprit.
Genes. Some studies show that depression is more common in people whose biological family members also have the condition. Researchers are trying to find genes that may be involved in causing depression.
Environment. Environment is also thought to play a causal role in some way. Environmental causes are situations in your life that are difficult to cope with, such as the loss of a loved one, financial problems and high stress. Source: http://www.revolutionhealth.com/conditions/mental-behavioral-health/depression/causes/causes?section=section_02

Keyword SUSPECTED not known because if it was proved to be a fact or known then we again wouldn't be having this discussion most likely.











In every brain I examined of people diagnosed with clinical depression, I found changes in the limbic system. I was not the only psychologist to find the same.

No disrespect but you are only one man.. your studies do not prove facts about mental illness when majority of other scientist studies are opposite of your own..




I consider my own findings and the agreement of my collegues as proof of a physical basis for clinical depression. As I stated before I was not the only researcher and Psychologist to come to the same conclusions.

This part is the part that gets to me.. How can one man consider his tiny test that he did with a few trials to be proof?? Your test has to coincide with the majority of the other scientist that test exactly as you do.. this has to be at least over a 90% chance testing rate consented among the whole of the science community.. we are talking about something that is a minority if I'm not mistake it is more like 20& or around that number.. We are not close at all to finding what we are looking for... I do not think w will find it and i think that those test are purely statistical i mean really what are you looking for with those cat scans?? And who makes up these disorders..?? How do you know it is not a big coincidence.?? the members and statistics would make it seem to be more than a coincidence.. the numbers may prove that this field is a downright lie....You are missing the point...If my tongue hurts and I'm sad that does not make me insane or mentally ill... you don't seem to get it.. Who decides what normal or not... Behavior is not a disease.. this is ludacris...in my opinion..


Here is an image of a CAT scan showing the differences in the brain of a clinically depressed person and a person not diagnosed with it.

This is from the Mayo clinic

Tell me again do ALL depressed people diagnosed with this disorder brains look like that?? If not then why don't you explain exactly HOW MANY people diagnosed with depression brains look like that?? If the number is less than half around 20% or 15 % then tell me how can you even get close enough to say that this is what you based what you call off as a scientific proof or fact??

I will accept your word as a Muslim that your intent is being misunderstood by some of us. For that I apologies and accept your sincerity in posting

Mahshallah may Allah accept your apology and mines as well my Allah forgive you as well as may Allah forgive me..inshallah..
Just from personal experience I find it to be impossible for me to live as a Muslim in the Muslim countries I have lived in or visited. There are some cities that are exceptions such as Makkah, Medina, and Fez. I find it is impossible for me to get a residency visa for Makkah or Medinah so they are out. Fez is a dream and a possibility, but not too realistic because of my age and limited income. But, I have not given up hope of moving to Fez one day Inshallah. This is one reason I keep Fez in my signature if you scroll down on it.


Again,, mister no offense but if you look at my opinion i will consider you weak.. because i consider that extreme.. you live in the states and you know it is not right to be there but yet you will not leave because you will only accept 3 countries?? It sounds as if you will only accept those 3 places or nothing else and most likely you wont be getting there any time soon due to your circumstances, may allah help, but what do you plan to do in the mean time??? In my opinion i say that you are not trying to better your life or you do not see the harm and simply "living" among non Muslims let alone in a country where the sins are greater.. not to finger point but i totally agree with you.. the difference between me and you is that even though i want what you want, i will not turn down other better lands especially the better lands that are better than the states or lands with lesser evil.. and i will continue to find lands of lesser evil even if they are the poorest of countries until i can finally get close enough and perhaps make it to my destination..

Remember this is not just a lifestyle choice, it is our duty to reduce our living conditions and sin as much as possible. Our duty to choose the lesser evil in all cases..

Sadly I do agree with you, in many cases patients are overly medicated. I can give reasons but not any justifications as to why that happens. I no longer take any medications, not even aspirins. Currently the only medical devices I use are the hearing aides and eyeglasses I have been prescribed.

I do agree my attitude to wards medications is extreme and should not be followed by most people. Prudent medication is a necessity for some people.

Actually i also do not take any medication except the sunnah medications like honey and black seed.. natural medication is a whole lot better and allot healthy than the deadly poisons of the artificially conventional medications prescribed today.. Even if mental illness has some basis off validity to its "science" then it is no doubt not innocent of the over diagnosing and over medicating of society..which has led to mass deaths daily around the world in astonishing numbers...it is an atrocity indeed...

knowing how many people have died due to mis diagnosing and allow a person to still diagnose a Muslim knowing that in most cases the diagnosing will be wrong, this alone is enough to call the scholars and rule that this practice is haram in every stage... Humans are not testing animals.. we cant just sit around and let you give us drugs that could and should potentially kill us or destroy us in catastrophe while the doctors "work to magically find a cure experimenting on the patients until they" "get it right.." by that time the patient could be dead and the doctors may never get it right... This is enough to make a ruling that says that no doctor should force any Muslim to undergo a treatment that is still in a beginning stage of testing and also if that treatment has shown to fail in so many cases and trials across the world...


Having spent a good bit of my life as a psychologist, I disagree with you about it being a pseudoscience. It is a fairly new field to be recognized as a bonafide science and until the early 20th century it was considered to be a field of philosophy. but, it gained the recognition of being a science when the early researchers proved that the findings were quantified, measurable and could be replicated.

See my quote about the question as to what exactly gives a man the right to label something as "normal" or not??

 

[Tariqa]

See my quote about the question as to what exactly gives a man the right to label something as "normal" or not??

Again i apologize and it is true some of what i was saying was completely from my thoughts and some were a mix between things i feel and what also many scholars do as well..


I understand your studies leads you to believe that mental illnesses are in fact biological due to those test but how can you use those test against statistics.. Remember the statistics shows that majority of the mentally ill patients do not test for any abnormality in brain activity..Can you use your studies as facts for the entire population of mental illness?? you can not but at least you can have strong opinions but not facts.. not even scholars have facts on their opinions thats why they call it differences of opinions... its not 100% prove but 99.9% is good enough in this case of mental illness its more like 20 to 45%..if even that high sadly




I think you mean to say that mental disorders could or show strong signs, not that his work proved the theory right because if he proved it then we would not be differing today..


Keyword SUSPECTED not known because if it was proved to be a fact or known then we again wouldn't be having this discussion most likely.











No disrespect but you are only one man.. your studies do not prove facts about mental illness when majority of other scientist studies are opposite of your own..






This part is the part that gets to me.. How can one man consider his tiny test that he did with a few trials to be proof?? Your test has to coincide with the majority of the other scientist that test exactly as you do.. this has to be at least over a 90% chance testing rate consented among the whole of the science community.. we are talking about something that is a minority if I'm not mistake it is more like 20& or around that number.. We are not close at all to finding what we are looking for... I do not think w will find it and i think that those test are purely statistical i mean really what are you looking for with those cat scans?? And who makes up these disorders..?? How do you know it is not a big coincidence.?? the members and statistics would make it seem to be more than a coincidence.. the numbers may prove that this field is a downright lie....You are missing the point...If my tongue hurts and I'm sad that does not make me insane or mentally ill... you don't seem to get it.. Who decides what normal or not... Behavior is not a disease.. this is ludacris...in my opinion..





Tell me again do ALL depressed people diagnosed with this disorder brains look like that?? If not then why don't you explain exactly HOW MANY people diagnosed with depression brains look like that?? If the number is less than half around 20% or 15 % then tell me how can you even get close enough to say that this is what you based what you call off as a scientific proof or fact??



Again,, mister no offense but if you look at my opinion i will consider you weak.. because i consider that extreme.. you live in the states and you know it is not right to be there but yet you will not leave because you will only accept 3 countries?? It sounds as if you will only accept those 3 places or nothing else and most likely you wont be getting there any time soon due to your circumstances, may allah help, but what do you plan to do in the mean time??? In my opinion i say that you are not trying to better your life or you do not see the harm and simply "living" among non Muslims let alone in a country where the sins are greater.. not to finger point but i totally agree with you.. the difference between me and you is that even though i want what you want, i will not turn down other better lands especially the better lands that are better than the states or lands with lesser evil.. and i will continue to find lands of lesser evil even if they are the poorest of countries until i can finally get close enough and perhaps make it to my destination..

Remember this is not just a lifestyle choice, it is our duty to reduce our living conditions and sin as much as possible. Our duty to choose the lesser evil in all cases..




Actually i also do not take any medication except the sunnah medications like honey and black seed.. natural medication is a whole lot better and allot healthy than the deadly poisons of the artificially conventional medications prescribed today.. Even if mental illness has some basis off validity to its "science" then it is no doubt not innocent of the over diagnosing and over medicating of society..which has led to mass deaths daily around the world in astonishing numbers...it is an atrocity indeed...

knowing how many people have died due to mis diagnosing and allow a person to still diagnose a Muslim knowing that in most cases the diagnosing will be wrong, this alone is enough to call the scholars and rule that this practice is haram in every stage... Humans are not testing animals.. we cant just sit around and let you give us drugs that could and should potentially kill us or destroy us in catastrophe while the doctors "work to magically find a cure experimenting on the patients until they" "get it right.." by that time the patient could be dead and the doctors may never get it right... This is enough to make a ruling that says that no doctor should force any Muslim to undergo a treatment that is still in a beginning stage of testing and also if that treatment has shown to fail in so many cases and trials across the world...

 

[Woodrow]

Again i apologize and it is true some of what i was saying was completely from my thoughts and some were a mix between things i feel and what also many scholars do as well..

Apology accepted. There is no problem with that. You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it.

I understand your studies leads you to believe that mental illnesses are in fact biological due to those test but how can you use those test against statistics.. Remember the statistics shows that majority of the mentally ill patients do not test for any abnormality in brain activity..Can you use your studies as facts for the entire population of mental illness?? you can not but at least you can have strong opinions but not facts.. not even scholars have facts on their opinions thats why they call it differences of opinions... its not 100% prove but 99.9% is good enough in this case of mental illness its more like 20 to 45%..if even that high sadly

No I can not use my studies as proof, but I can show that Most if not all physiological psychologists have come to the same conclusion. In fact that is why we are called physiological Psychologist, is because we find mental disorders to be the result of physical disorders.
Although today many refer to physiological psychology as being Cognitive Neuroscience. But, I am old fashioned and it has been many years since I graduated. It is true we do disagree with the findings of some psychologists especially the Behaviorists and Social Psychologists. I do not know how many Physiological Psychologists there are, but we all have found physical changes in the brain of people diagnosed as having mental disorders. In fact without finding those changes we would not diagnose the person as having a mental disorder.

I think you mean to say that mental disorders could or show strong signs, not that his work proved the theory right because if he proved it then we would not be differing today..


Keyword SUSPECTED not known because if it was proved to be a fact or known then we again wouldn't be having this discussion most likely.

As you wrote it I agree. But, I also failed to point out that without verifiable physical changes in the neurosystem a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder

No disrespect but you are only one man.. your studies do not prove facts about mental illness when majority of other scientist studies are opposite of your own..

I believe you will find the majority of physiological psychologists to be in agreement with there being a physical basis for Mental disorders and that it is a medical condition

This part is the part that gets to me.. How can one man consider his tiny test that he did with a few trials to be proof?? Your test has to coincide with the majority of the other scientist that test exactly as you do.. this has to be at least over a 90% chance testing rate consented among the whole of the science community.. we are talking about something that is a minority if I'm not mistake it is more like 20& or around that number.. We are not close at all to finding what we are looking for... I do not think w will find it and i think that those test are purely statistical i mean really what are you looking for with those cat scans?? And who makes up these disorders..?? How do you know it is not a big coincidence.?? the members and statistics would make it seem to be more than a coincidence.. the numbers may prove that this field is a downright lie....

The cat scans show active and inactive portions of the brain. Without evidence of inactivity in various areas a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder

You are missing the point...If my tongue hurts and I'm sad that does not make me insane or mentally ill...

No but if you had other factors such as a change in behavior, loss of contact with reality, hallucinations and a CAT scan showing lack of activity in portions of your brain I would request other tests to rule out the liklihood of being mentaly ill and if I could not rule out that probability I would do my best to determine which type of disorder was present and what would be the best treatment to control it.

you don't seem to get it.. Who decides what normal or not... Behavior is not a disease.. this is ludacris...in my opinion..

there is no such thing as normal. There is only a question of if the person feels a need for help or is satisfied with how he/she feels.

Tell me again do ALL depressed people diagnosed with this disorder brains look like that?? If not then why don't you explain exactly HOW MANY people diagnosed with depression brains look like that?? If the number is less than half around 20% or 15 % then tell me how can you even get close enough to say that this is what you based what you call off as a scientific proof or fact??

Anybody diagnosed as being clinicaly depressed, by a physiological psychologist would have those same looking CAT Scans. So my answer is 100% of people that are clinicaly depressed show that very same CAT scan, otherwise the diagnosis is in error.

Again,, mister no offense but if you look at my opinion i will consider you weak.. because i consider that extreme.. you live in the states and you know it is not right to be there but yet you will not leave because you will only accept 3 countries?? It sounds as if you will only accept those 3 places or nothing else and most likely you wont be getting there any time soon due to your circumstances, may allah help, but what do you plan to do in the mean time??? In my opinion i say that you are not trying to better your life or you do not see the harm and simply "living" among non Muslims let alone in a country where the sins are greater.. not to finger point but i totally agree with you.. the difference between me and you is that even though i want what you want, i will not turn down other better lands especially the better lands that are better than the states or lands with lesser evil.. and i will continue to find lands of lesser evil even if they are the poorest of countries until i can finally get close enough and perhaps make it to my destination..

Perhaps it is that you do not know me? Many things are not my choice. I am deaf, nearly blind. Crippled in my right arm and right leg, very limited in motion and somewhat elderly. My days of living on my own are very limited. In fact less than 3 years ago I had to give up my home because I could not care for myself and had to move in with my daughter in Austin, TX. In fact it was in Texas 3 years ago where I reverted to Islam. However, in the past year Allaah(swt) was very merciful. I was given a wonderful wife in May and moved to Minnesota, some of my strength returned and I was able to drive a car again and regain a large degree of physical ability. However, I know my current health is a short term gift. I am making the most of it by giving Da'wah on the Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux reservation and the Cheyenne River Sioux reservation. I do have good rapport with native Americans as my wife is Cheyenne and my previous wife was Cherokee. There are only 6 to 8 Sioux Muslims in South Dakota and I am doing my best to keep them in contact with Islam mostly through literature I get from Makkah and Alexandria Egypt. I also try to help my brothers and sisters at Pine ridge. That is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the USA and most of the people there have no electricity or running water. Right now winter is setting in and for the past few weeks I have been bringing food to the 4 Muslims on Pine Ridge.

I still hope to move to Fez, but so far I do not have the means to and if I do manage to get there, I would have difficulty in paying rent. I am unemployable even if a job there was available. But, I do what I can do here.

Remember this is not just a lifestyle choice, it is our duty to reduce our living conditions and sin as much as possible. Our duty to choose the lesser evil in all cases..

I have been blessed in that aspect. I have very little physical ability to commit any more sins. However, it is necessary I keep trying to improve my Deen and strive to be the best Muslim I can be.

I live several miles from my nearest neighbors, and have little contact with any people except the Sioux Muslims on the reservations. I also have contact with Sioux seekers that wish to learn more about Islam. Although I drive over 1000 miles each week, I have very little contact with people.

Actually i also do not take any medication except the sunnah medications like honey and black seed.. natural medication is a whole lot better and allot healthy than the deadly poisons of the artificially conventional medications prescribed today.. Even if mental illness has some basis off validity to its "science" then it is no doubt not innocent of the over diagnosing and over medicating of society..which has led to mass deaths daily around the world in astonishing numbers...it is an atrocity indeed...

Whic is a good argument to show that more Muslims need to enter into the field of psychology. I no longer practice and even when I was practicing I did little in the realm of treating people, my forte was primarily in research.

knowing how many people have died due to mis diagnosing and allow a person to still diagnose a Muslim knowing that in most cases the diagnosing will be wrong, this alone is enough to call the scholars and rule that this practice is haram in every stage... Humans are not testing animals.. we cant just sit around and let you give us drugs that could and should potentially kill us or destroy us in catastrophe while the doctors "work to magically find a cure experimenting on the patients until they" "get it right.." by that time the patient could be dead and the doctors may never get it right... This is enough to make a ruling that says that no doctor should force any Muslim to undergo a treatment that is still in a beginning stage of testing and also if that treatment has shown to fail in so many cases and trials across the world...

Again a very good reason pious Muslims need to become Psychiatrists and psychologists. There is a strong need for Muslim Doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists in America. As the Muslim population grows, who will treat them if there are no Muslims that can? Most American Reverts will never have the chance to even visit a Muslim land much less move to one. It will be a sad day for American reverts if all of the pious Muslims move to a Muslim land.

 

[Tariqa]

Apology accepted. There is no problem with that. You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it.

Allhumdulillah

No I can not use my studies as proof, but I can show that Most if not all physiological psychologists have come to the same conclusion. In fact that is why we are called physiological Psychologist, is because we find mental disorders to be the result of physical disorders.
Although today many refer to physiological psychology as being Cognitive Neuroscience. But, I am old fashioned and it has been many years since I graduated. It is true we do disagree with the findings of some psychologists especially the Behaviorists and Social Psychologists. I do not know how many Physiological Psychologists there are, but we all have found physical changes in the brain of people diagnosed as having mental disorders. In fact without finding those changes we would not diagnose the person as having a mental disorder.

I hate to combat with you again but i find this last statement to be completely wrong.. I know you have heard of so many cases of misdiagnosing where people were diagnosed with a mental illness and there was no indication of any biological abnormality.. The only thing the doctors would judge in those cases and cases alike were and are the behavioral factors.. You may not know but the deaths from misdiagnosing is what triggered many to consider this profession of the top 5 threats to mankind's existence.. This is one of the only professions besides law enforcement where a person can be trailed behind his will, even without any proof.. Now i don't know your race but if you are a minority living in the inner cities you would know how true this is, you should also know how frequent many minorities were targeted by officers for no apparent reason under racial profiling and sentenced to wild life sentences and such for things they have never thought to even commit... This holds the same weight especially today with the profession of mental illness.. it is legal for a doctor to diagnoses a patient without a single shred of biological data and in many cases no real behavioral data proof alike....it is a very real reality going on in these hospitals and if you knew the number of patients being misdiagnose you would probably be shocked and outraged...what is the excuse for these actions indeed..??

As you wrote it I agree. But, I also failed to point out that without verifiable physical changes in the neurosystem a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder

again this is in my opinion the furthest from the truth.. you may have not witnesses what many have witness of almost torture like methods practiced by these doctors in horrific measure... indeed listen to some eyewitness accounts yourself there is no denying this disturbing fact indeed..medical malpractice is more associated with the modern health cares of today then it is for known to treat people..this professions are almost a waste.. in the time of the prophet there were no doctors.. nowadays people are so lazy...they will be questioned about not being able to take care of themselves properly and when they get sick knowing these drugs kill people more so then they are known for their helpful effects so taking them can be a sort of suicide indeed..

I believe you will find the majority of physiological psychologists to be in agreement with there being a physical basis for Mental disorders and that it is a medical condition

Even if there is majority of the scientist in agreement, this still does not prove that in most cases of testing there are no signs, i mean for all patients in the entire world that was ever diagnosed...most show no signs of anything...

The cat scans show active and inactive portions of the brain. Without evidence of inactivity in various areas a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder

again i highly think you are mistaken and i fully think that they would could and do indeed everyday do this exact practice..just ask one today...

No but if you had other factors such as a change in behavior, loss of contact with reality, hallucinations and a CAT scan showing lack of activity in portions of your brain I would request other tests to rule out the likelihood of being mentally ill and if I could not rule out that probability I would do my best to determine which type of disorder was present and what would be the best treatment to control it.

possibly but me being sad does not always have to mean I'm depressed, me being sad could just be because i have a chemical imbalance in my brain, or I'm sick or I'm going through trails. the sadness can be a result from all these factors but it does not necessarily mean that the sadness itself is a disease and thats the problem with this "science" they do not realize that the chemical imbalance in a persons brain is not the cause of the symptoms, but is a co-cause of the problem..the causes are many factors of life issues, being sad is a symptom of these causes..having a mental illness could be the cause of sadness and depression.. In Islam being sad is something that only Muslims with weak iman do.. strong Muslims do not despair..so there is really no curing a weak heart except Islam and more trust in Allah.. in most cases there is nothing a doctor can prescribe to a patient to make him trust in allah..the medicine may correct the imbalance but this does not mean that the imbalance was involuntarily causing this patient to be sad for no reason... it was the patients chose.. and in cases where its more than a chemical imbalance thats causing the symptoms, for instance a patient who is going through social problems, the medication must likely will not work and the patient will need therapy..You see each case is different but what the doctors claim is nothing but lies and poetry in my opinion.. they did not do no more then give a sad kid an ice cream cone.. yes he forgot about the problem because he is distracted by the new ice cream cone but they did not solve the problem only introduced him to new "problems".

there is no such thing as normal. There is only a question of if the person feels a need for help or is satisfied with how he/she feels.

then your admitting it is a choice not a physical disorder.. if the patient chooses how they are deemed ill then it is not the doctors that changes the disorder but the patients... they are the ones that choose whether they are sick or not and the and the doctors cant really prove that anything they do is certified to work...they must be like gamblers.. just rolling the dice hoping each time they strike happiness..

Anybody diagnosed as being clinically depressed, by a physiological psychologist would have those same looking CAT Scans. So my answer is 100% of people that are clinically depressed show that very same CAT scan, otherwise the diagnosis is in error.

again i think this is anything closest to the truth...this can easily be proving by talking to patients and doctors themselves and simply asking them is it allowed to diagnose a patient with mental illness even though he shows no signs of evidence of a chemical imbalance on the charts.. i guarantee you he says yes because i have already asked.. i know for sure the answer was yes,,not only from that specific doctor but all doctors know it is allowed by the APA to diagnose a patient just by one screening of the patient done in about 5 mins between the patient and the doctor and no traditional methods that a doctor usually uses like a stethoscope and microscope for example...

Perhaps it is that you do not know me? Many things are not my choice. I am deaf, nearly blind. Crippled in my right arm and right leg, very limited in motion and somewhat elderly. My days of living on my own are very limited. In fact less than 3 years ago I had to give up my home because I could not care for myself and had to move in with my daughter in Austin, TX. In fact it was in Texas 3 years ago where I reverted to Islam. However, in the past year Allah(swt) was very merciful. I was given a wonderful wife in May and moved to Minnesota, some of my strength returned and I was able to drive a car again and regain a large degree of physical ability. However, I know my current health is a short term gift. I am making the most of it by giving Da'wah on the Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux reservation and the Cheyenne River Sioux reservation. I do have good rapport with native Americans as my wife is Cheyenne and my previous wife was Cherokee. There are only 6 to 8 Sioux Muslims in South Dakota and I am doing my best to keep them in contact with Islam mostly through literature I get from Makkah and Alexandria Egypt. I also try to help my brothers and sisters at Pine ridge. That is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the USA and most of the people there have no electricity or running water. Right now winter is setting in and for the past few weeks I have been bringing food to the 4 Muslims on Pine Ridge.

I still hope to move to Fez, but so far I do not have the means to and if I do manage to get there, I would have difficulty in paying rent. I am unemployable even if a job there was available. But, I do what I can do here.

I understand.. your excuse is allot stronger than my own and many so called young Muslims that really have the means and no excuse..

I pray Allah pardons you and forgives you for whatever you fall short on...however i do think that there is a cure for everyone..as the hadith indicates black seed is a cure for every disease except old age or death..well i think if your not dead yet that there is still hope for you.. i can only give you the advice and you can choose to act upon or not.. whether you are capable of doing so truly will be between you and Allah...

i again am only suggesting to find a land that will be of a lesser evil.. if your daughter will not move with you and support you then again Allah will judge everyones unique situation and allah knows best.. do what you know you can do and do not leave any rock or opportunity unturned because there are better ways then what we all are living in...and also do not rule anything out because of difficulty, even the oldest people some of them still choose to choose the path of difficulty and fight even though they were not required to..







Which is a good argument to show that more Muslims need to enter into the field of psychology. I no longer practice and even when I was practicing I did little in the realm of treating people, my forte was primarily in research.

Yes us Muslims need to be our own doctors thats what i proposed remember the sunnah is not to see doctors... if Muslims would start taking care of their own selves instead of relying on drugs then we can save ourselves from the injustice of the disbelievers..


Again a very good reason pious Muslims need to become Psychiatrists and psychologists. There is a strong need for Muslim Doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists in America. As the Muslim population grows, who will treat them if there are no Muslims that can? Most American Reverts will never have the chance to even visit a Muslim land much less move to one. It will be a sad day for American reverts if all of the pious Muslims move to a Muslim land.

Well we are not only proposing that the pious move but all American reverts as well... if all Muslims left that would be best...
Honestly i do not know what to tell you... i do not think that Muslims coming to non Muslim lands and also living in sin is the way out... i think we should be trying to get our Muslims out of every non Muslim land... this itself is its own discussion and we should talk about this more in detail but we can judge inshallah what the best thing is to do..

As far as medicine again i do not recommend any Muslim to go to a doctor whether Muslim or non Muslim but seek allah.... honey is a cure. can a Muslim stay home and use home remedies??? it is the sunnah .. if the messanger of Allah did it then we surely can and should do it as well..may Allah bestow upon all of the Muslims strength to follow the sunnah to the closest letter inshallah..

 

[Tariqa]

Originally Posted by Woodrow
Apology accepted. There is no problem with that. You are entitled to your opinion and have the right to express it.

Allhumdulillah

No I can not use my studies as proof, but I can show that Most if not all physiological psychologists have come to the same conclusion. In fact that is why we are called physiological Psychologist, is because we find mental disorders to be the result of physical disorders.
Although today many refer to physiological psychology as being Cognitive Neuroscience. But, I am old fashioned and it has been many years since I graduated. It is true we do disagree with the findings of some psychologists especially the Behaviorists and Social Psychologists. I do not know how many Physiological Psychologists there are, but we all have found physical changes in the brain of people diagnosed as having mental disorders. In fact without finding those changes we would not diagnose the person as having a mental disorder.

I hate to combat with you again but i find this last statement to be completely wrong.. I know you have heard of so many cases of misdiagnosing where people were diagnosed with a mental illness and there was no indication of any biological abnormality.. The only thing the doctors would judge in those cases and cases alike were and are the behavioral factors.. You may not know but the deaths from misdiagnosing is what triggered many to consider this profession of the top 5 threats to mankind's existence.. This is one of the only professions besides law enforcement where a person can be trailed behind his will, even without any proof.. Now i don't know your race but if you are a minority living in the inner cities you would know how true this is, you should also know how frequent many minorities were targeted by officers for no apparent reason under racial profiling and sentenced to wild life sentences and such for things they have never thought to even commit... This holds the same weight especially today with the profession of mental illness.. it is legal for a doctor to diagnoses a patient without a single shred of biological data and in many cases no real behavioral data proof alike....it is a very real reality going on in these hospitals and if you knew the number of patients being misdiagnose you would probably be shocked and outraged...what is the excuse for these actions indeed..??

As you wrote it I agree. But, I also failed to point out that without verifiable physical changes in the neurosystem a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder

again this is in my opinion the furthest from the truth.. you may have not witnesses what many have witness of almost torture like methods practiced by these doctors in horrific measure... indeed listen to some eyewitness accounts yourself there is no denying this disturbing fact indeed..medical malpractice is more associated with the modern health cares of today then it is for known to treat people..this professions are almost a waste.. in the time of the prophet there were no doctors.. nowadays people are so lazy...they will be questioned about not being able to take care of themselves properly and when they get sick knowing these drugs kill people more so then they are known for their helpful effects so taking them can be a sort of suicide indeed..

I believe you will find the majority of physiological psychologists to be in agreement with there being a physical basis for Mental disorders and that it is a medical condition

Even if there is majority of the scientist in agreement, this still does not prove that in most cases of testing there are no signs, i mean for all patients in the entire world that was ever diagnosed...most show no signs of anything...

The cat scans show active and inactive portions of the brain. Without evidence of inactivity in various areas a physiological psychologist would not make a diagnosis of a mental disorder

again i highly think you are mistaken and i fully think that they would could and do indeed everyday do this exact practice..just ask one today...

No but if you had other factors such as a change in behavior, loss of contact with reality, hallucinations and a CAT scan showing lack of activity in portions of your brain I would request other tests to rule out the likelihood of being mentally ill and if I could not rule out that probability I would do my best to determine which type of disorder was present and what would be the best treatment to control it.

possibly but me being sad does not always have to mean I'm depressed, me being sad could just be because i have a chemical imbalance in my brain, or I'm sick or I'm going through trails. the sadness can be a result from all these factors but it does not necessarily mean that the sadness itself is a disease and thats the problem with this "science" they do not realize that the chemical imbalance in a persons brain is not the cause of the symptoms, but is a co-cause of the problem..the causes are many factors of life issues, being sad is a symptom of these causes..having a mental illness could be the cause of sadness and depression.. In Islam being sad is something that only Muslims with weak iman do.. strong Muslims do not despair..so there is really no curing a weak heart except Islam and more trust in Allah.. in most cases there is nothing a doctor can prescribe to a patient to make him trust in allah..the medicine may correct the imbalance but this does not mean that the imbalance was involuntarily causing this patient to be sad for no reason... it was the patients chose.. and in cases where its more than a chemical imbalance thats causing the symptoms, for instance a patient who is going through social problems, the medication must likely will not work and the patient will need therapy..You see each case is different but what the doctors claim is nothing but lies and poetry in my opinion.. they did not do no more then give a sad kid an ice cream cone.. yes he forgot about the problem because he is distracted by the new ice cream cone but they did not solve the problem only introduced him to new "problems".

there is no such thing as normal. There is only a question of if the person feels a need for help or is satisfied with how he/she feels.

then your admitting it is a choice not a physical disorder.. if the patient chooses how they are deemed ill then it is not the doctors that changes the disorder but the patients... they are the ones that choose whether they are sick or not and the and the doctors cant really prove that anything they do is certified to work...they must be like gamblers.. just rolling the dice hoping each time they strike happiness..





:

Anybody diagnosed as being clinically depressed, by a physiological psychologist would have those same looking CAT Scans. So my answer is 100% of people that are clinically depressed show that very same CAT scan, otherwise the diagnosis is in error.

again i think this is anything closest to the truth...this can easily be proving by talking to patients and doctors themselves and simply asking them is it allowed to diagnose a patient with mental illness even though he shows no signs of evidence of a chemical imbalance on the charts.. i guarantee you he says yes because i have already asked.. i know for sure the answer was yes,,not only from that specific doctor but all doctors know it is allowed by the APA to diagnose a patient just by one screening of the patient done in about 5 mins between the patient and the doctor and no traditional methods that a doctor usually uses like a stethoscope and microscope for example...

Perhaps it is that you do not know me? Many things are not my choice. I am deaf, nearly blind. Crippled in my right arm and right leg, very limited in motion and somewhat elderly. My days of living on my own are very limited. In fact less than 3 years ago I had to give up my home because I could not care for myself and had to move in with my daughter in Austin, TX. In fact it was in Texas 3 years ago where I reverted to Islam. However, in the past year Allah(swt) was very merciful. I was given a wonderful wife in May and moved to Minnesota, some of my strength returned and I was able to drive a car again and regain a large degree of physical ability. However, I know my current health is a short term gift. I am making the most of it by giving Da'wah on the Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux reservation and the Cheyenne River Sioux reservation. I do have good rapport with native Americans as my wife is Cheyenne and my previous wife was Cherokee. There are only 6 to 8 Sioux Muslims in South Dakota and I am doing my best to keep them in contact with Islam mostly through literature I get from Makkah and Alexandria Egypt. I also try to help my brothers and sisters at Pine ridge. That is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the USA and most of the people there have no electricity or running water. Right now winter is setting in and for the past few weeks I have been bringing food to the 4 Muslims on Pine Ridge.

I still hope to move to Fez, but so far I do not have the means to and if I do manage to get there, I would have difficulty in paying rent. I am unemployable even if a job there was available. But, I do what I can do here.

I understand.. your excuse is allot stronger than my own and many so called young Muslims that really have the means and no excuse..

I pray Allah pardons you and forgives you for whatever you fall short on...however i do think that there is a cure for everyone..as the hadith indicates black seed is a cure for every disease except old age or death..well i think if your not dead yet that there is still hope for you.. i can only give you the advice and you can choose to act upon or not.. whether you are capable of doing so truly will be between you and Allah...

i again am only suggesting to find a land that will be of a lesser evil.. if your daughter will not move with you and support you then again Allah will judge everyones unique situation and allah knows best.. do what you know you can do and do not leave any rock or opportunity unturned because there are better ways then what we all are living in...and also do not rule anything out because of difficulty, even the oldest people some of them still choose to choose the path of difficulty and fight even though they were not required to..

Which is a good argument to show that more Muslims need to enter into the field of psychology. I no longer practice and even when I was practicing I did little in the realm of treating people, my forte was primarily in research.

Yes us Muslims need to be our own doctors thats what i proposed remember the sunnah is not to see doctors... if Muslims would start taking care of their own selves instead of relying on drugs then we can save ourselves from the injustice of the disbelievers..

Again a very good reason pious Muslims need to become Psychiatrists and psychologists. There is a strong need for Muslim Doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists in America. As the Muslim population grows, who will treat them if there are no Muslims that can? Most American Reverts will never have the chance to even visit a Muslim land much less move to one. It will be a sad day for American reverts if all of the pious Muslims move to a Muslim land.

Well we are not only proposing that the pious move but all American reverts as well... if all Muslims left that would be best...
Honestly i do not know what to tell you... i do not think that Muslims coming to non Muslim lands and also living in sin is the way out... i think we should be trying to get our Muslims out of every non Muslim land... this itself is its own discussion and we should talk about this more in detail but we can judge inshallah what the best thing is to do..

As far as medicine again i do not recommend any Muslim to go to a doctor whether Muslim or non Muslim but seek allah.... honey is a cure. can a Muslim stay home and use home remedies??? it is the sunnah .. if the messanger of Allah did it then we surely can and should do it as well..may Allah bestow upon all of the Muslims strength to follow the sunnah to the closest letter inshallah..

 

[aamirsaab]

Hey Tariq. Erm, you still have this really bad conception of psychology and psycho-analysis. It's not like you sit down for 5 minutes and you get diagnosed. The process of pscyhoanalysis is lenghty and a lot of things are factored.

For example; someone who has just been crying due to a relative passing away will not be diagnosed as mentally depressed (yes they are currently in a state of depression but it doesn't mean they need to take medication!)

However, someone who has been non-stop crying, whailing and screaming all day for a week will probably be in need of some medication or at least some psychological help (to find out what exactly is going on!). But, psycho analysis doesn't always lead to you needing medication or being diagnosed as mentally ill.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that psychology actually helps explain certain Islamic teachings. For instance: the Id, Ego and SuperEgo offer a very similar explanation to how shaytan works in Islam. Also, there are numerous psychological reasons for prayer, tasbih, the seperation of males and females etc etc.

So basically, psychology doesn't contradict Islam's teachings - in fact, it helps offer explanations for them which therefore make it easier to understand and to thus carry out.

Another point I should make is that if you are to follow the Islamic teachings as taught to us from hadith and Quran, you're psychological make up is actually quite good - i.e you won't suffer depression (or it's less likely) etc. I think you actually mentioned this in one of your posts that if we followed Islam properly then we wouldn't need the assistance of psychoanalysis - and most people would agree with that. But that actually means that psychology is actually working WITH Islam, not against it.

Yes misdiagnosis happens, and yes people can die as a result. But, is it any different in any other practice? The Law system isn't perfect and it makes mistakes - wrong people go to jail or get the death sentence all the time. The medical system isn't perfect and it makes mistakes - some people die as a result. In Business, you can do everything right but sometimes you don't pay your creditors and they go bankrupt as a result. But, none of those professions are haram in and of themselves - in fact, in Islam we have the perfect versions of each and every one of them so clearly they aren't at their core haram.

In the end psychology carries more good than bad. If you (or anyone) really want to know more about this subject (which I recommend you should because it is great!) then there are atleast 3 members on this forum (Skye, Woodrow, me) that have a lot of info to give. I myself studied it at college for A - levels so I know 2 years worth, but I think woodrow actually studied it further so ask him first.

 

[Woodrow]

Allhumdulillah




I hate to combat with you again but i find this last statement to be completely wrong.. I know you have heard of so many cases of misdiagnosing where people were diagnosed with a mental illness and there was no indication of any biological abnormality.. The only thing the doctors would judge in those cases and cases alike were and are the behavioral factors.. You may not know but the deaths from misdiagnosing is what triggered many to consider this profession of the top 5 threats to mankind's existence.. This is one of the only professions besides law enforcement where a person can be trailed behind his will, even without any proof.. Now i don't know your race but if you are a minority living in the inner cities you would know how true this is, you should also know how frequent many minorities were targeted by officers for no apparent reason under racial profiling and sentenced to wild life sentences and such for things they have never thought to even commit... This holds the same weight especially today with the profession of mental illness.. it is legal for a doctor to diagnoses a patient without a single shred of biological data and in many cases no real behavioral data proof alike....it is a very real reality going on in these hospitals and if you knew the number of patients being misdiagnose you would probably be shocked and outraged...what is the excuse for these actions indeed..??

There is no combat in honest disagreement. Disagreement is healthy and constructive if it is understood that all parties agree to disagree with respect.

Yes, Psychiatry and psychology can be missused and misdiagnosis can be made, either through error or deliberate.

I am very familiar with racial profiling. Although I inherited very few oriental traits most of my family has strong oriental features. It was difficult growing up in America during WW2 and being from an oriental family. All of us were viewed as being Japanese.

All things when misused will have evil effects. This applies to every area of Human actions and thought.

Yes, the police do misuse psychiatric diagnosis as a means of illegal tracking. However, the diagnosis need not be made by any qualified professional. In any State the county coronor can make the decision and for a short term commitment any person can contact the local coronor or police chief with the fear that somebody is insane and is a danger. On the basis of that alone a persone can be held up to 24 hours for observation. In some states if that does not work. An accusation of public intoxication by a police officer is sufficient grounds to have a person held for 4 hours, with know verification that the person has been partaking any intoxicants. It is not uncommon for diabetics to die in jail because they were accused of being intoxicated and in reality were having an insulin reaction. Misuse of legal proceedure is not neccessarily a reason to judge a field of medicine when it may be a fault of the legal system

again this is in my opinion the furthest from the truth.. you may have not witnesses what many have witness of almost torture like methods practiced by these doctors in horrific measure... indeed listen to some eyewitness accounts yourself there is no denying this disturbing fact indeed..medical malpractice is more associated with the modern health cares of today then it is for known to treat people..this professions are almost a waste.. in the time of the prophet there were no doctors.. nowadays people are so lazy...they will be questioned about not being able to take care of themselves properly and when they get sick knowing these drugs kill people more so then they are known for their helpful effects so taking them can be a sort of suicide indeed..

I was a witness against the State of Louisiana in the infamous Gary W. class action suit in which over 1000 people were wrongly incarcerated in Mental institutions simply because they were "different". But, again this is a misuse of the legal system under the guise of medicine. We did win the case against Louisiana and that group of people were freed and given life time compensation.

Even if there is majority of the scientist in agreement, this still does not prove that in most cases of testing there are no signs, i mean for all patients in the entire world that was ever diagnosed...most show no signs of anything...

If there are no signs there is no diagnosis, that is an accusation and not professional medicine. yes, it is done, but that is a misuse of Medicine and violation of all medical codes.

again i highly think you are mistaken and i fully think that they would could and do indeed everyday do this exact practice..just ask one today...

Yes, it is done. But it is not valid psychological or psychiatric practice.

possibly but me being sad does not always have to mean I'm depressed, me being sad could just be because i have a chemical imbalance in my brain, or I'm sick or I'm going through trails. the sadness can be a result from all these factors but it does not necessarily mean that the sadness itself is a disease and thats the problem with this "science" they do not realize that the chemical imbalance in a persons brain is not the cause of the symptoms, but is a co-cause of the problem..the causes are many factors of life issues, being sad is a symptom of these causes..having a mental illness could be the cause of sadness and depression.. In Islam being sad is something that only Muslims with weak iman do.. strong Muslims do not despair..so there is really no curing a weak heart except Islam and more trust in Allah.. in most cases there is nothing a doctor can prescribe to a patient to make him trust in allah..the medicine may correct the imbalance but this does not mean that the imbalance was involuntarily causing this patient to be sad for no reason... it was the patients chose.. and in cases where its more than a chemical imbalance thats causing the symptoms, for instance a patient who is going through social problems, the medication must likely will not work and the patient will need therapy..You see each case is different but what the doctors claim is nothing but lies and poetry in my opinion.. they did not do no more then give a sad kid an ice cream cone.. yes he forgot about the problem because he is distracted by the new ice cream cone but they did not solve the problem only introduced him to new "problems".

The DSM does give very specific criteria as to what is needed to make a valid diagnosis. Situational depression does not meet the criteria for clinical depression. Yes, medicine in all fields can be mis used, but that does not make the field wrong. Psychiatry and psychology did not become recognized sciences or fields of medicine until the late 1800s and early 1900s. Prior to that those with any "abnormal" (abnormal being what the local populace called abnormal) behavior were incarcerated tortured or killed. since the advent of psychiatry as a medical field the number of Mad house, insane asylums etc dropped. the most notorious ones such as Bedlam were shut down.

then your admitting it is a choice not a physical disorder.. if the patient chooses how they are deemed ill then it is not the doctors that changes the disorder but the patients... they are the ones that choose whether they are sick or not and the and the doctors cant really prove that anything they do is certified to work...they must be like gamblers.. just rolling the dice hoping each time they strike happiness..

A erson always has the right to accept treatment or refuse treatment. That does not have any relationship to the need for treatment.





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again i think this is anything closest to the truth...this can easily be proving by talking to patients and doctors themselves and simply asking them is it allowed to diagnose a patient with mental illness even though he shows no signs of evidence of a chemical imbalance on the charts.. i guarantee you he says yes because i have already asked.. i know for sure the answer was yes,,not only from that specific doctor but all doctors know it is allowed by the APA to diagnose a patient just by one screening of the patient done in about 5 mins between the patient and the doctor and no traditional methods that a doctor usually uses like a stethoscope and microscope for example...

That is only part of the diagnosis. The DSM requires full physical testing along with personal interview.

I understand.. your excuse is allot stronger than my own and many so called young Muslims that really have the means and no excuse..

I pray Allah pardons you and forgives you for whatever you fall short on...however i do think that there is a cure for everyone..as the hadith indicates black seed is a cure for every disease except old age or death..well i think if your not dead yet that there is still hope for you.. i can only give you the advice and you can choose to act upon or not.. whether you are capable of doing so truly will be between you and Allah...

Jazakallahu Khayran

i again am only suggesting to find a land that will be of a lesser evil.. if your daughter will not move with you and support you then again Allah will judge everyones unique situation and allah knows best.. do what you know you can do and do not leave any rock or opportunity unturned because there are better ways then what we all are living in...and also do not rule anything out because of difficulty, even the oldest people some of them still choose to choose the path of difficulty and fight even though they were not required to..

My youngest daughter is over 40 years old and has the responsibility of her husband, children and her own grandchildren it is out of the question to expect her to move. My wife has no family in the USA and all of her family are non-Muslim Her children chose military life.

Yes us Muslims need to be our own doctors thats what i proposed remember the sunnah is not to see doctors... if Muslims would start taking care of their own selves instead of relying on drugs then we can save ourselves from the injustice of the disbelievers..

Yes, Muslims need to take care of themselves. right now I know of only one Muslim Doctor in the Dakotas. Although when I was in Texas it seemed most of the Doctors were Muslim

Well we are not only proposing that the pious move but all American reverts as well... if all Muslims left that would be best...
Honestly i do not know what to tell you... i do not think that Muslims coming to non Muslim lands and also living in sin is the way out... i think we should be trying to get our Muslims out of every non Muslim land... this itself is its own discussion and we should talk about this more in detail but we can judge inshallah what the best thing is to do..

That is another topic, let us finish one topic at a time

As far as medicine again i do not recommend any Muslim to go to a doctor whether Muslim or non Muslim but seek allah.... honey is a cure. can a Muslim stay home and use home remedies??? it is the sunnah .. if the messanger of Allah did it then we surely can and should do it as well..may Allah bestow upon all of the Muslims strength to follow the sunnah to the closest letter inshallah..

Perhaps, Doctors are granted their knowledge from Allaah(swt) and they may be the tool provided by Allaah(swt) Just as honey while made by bees is medicine from Allaah(swt). Perhaps some people are guided by Allaah(swt) to become Muslim Doctors to assist us in times of illness. Just a thought and personal opinion.

 

[Tariqa]

Yes, Psychiatry and psychology can be missused and misdiagnosis can be made, either through error or deliberate.

I am very familiar with racial profiling. Although I inherited very few oriental traits most of my family has strong oriental features. It was difficult growing up in America during WW2 and being from an oriental family. All of us were viewed as being Japanese.

All things when misused will have evil effects. This applies to every area of Human actions and thought.

We are talking almost everyday they misuse this profession and in mass numbers..

Yes, the police do misuse psychiatric diagnosis as a means of illegal tracking. However, the diagnosis need not be made by any qualified professional. In any State the county coronor can make the decision and for a short term commitment any person can contact the local coronor or police chief with the fear that somebody is insane and is a danger. On the basis of that alone a persone can be held up to 24 hours for observation. In some states if that does not work. An accusation of public intoxication by a police officer is sufficient grounds to have a person held for 4 hours, with know verification that the person has been partaking any intoxicants. It is not uncommon for diabetics to die in jail because they were accused of being intoxicated and in reality were having an insulin reaction. Misuse of legal proceedure is not neccessarily a reason to judge a field of medicine when it may be a fault of the legal system

Again thios happens allot more than "it happens sometimes" we are talking about a daily misuse of medicine...

If there are no signs there is no diagnosis, that is an accusation and not professional medicine. yes, it is done, but that is a misuse of Medicine and violation of all medical codes.

You admit that it is done but do you admit how often it is done??? Every single day and in mass numbers.. Check the statisitcs im sure you would be shocked.

Yes, it is done. But it is not valid psychological or psychiatric practice.

I guess then majority of todays diagonoses arent even ethical and valid..

A erson always has the right to accept treatment or refuse treatment. That does not have any relationship to the need for treatment.

Not in the case of involunetary committment they do not... Quite distrubing..to accuse one of false accusations.. Isnt in islam you need like 2 witnesses.. If this man dies they could go to hell for slander and false accusations.. subhannallah..

My youngest daughter is over 40 years old and has the responsibility of her husband, children and her own grandchildren it is out of the question to expect her to move. My wife has no family in the USA and all of her family are non-Muslim Her children chose military life.

Thats why i said if... if that is the case then may allah help you in your battles..inshaallah

Perhaps, Doctors are granted their knowledge from Allaah(swt) and they may be the tool provided by Allaah(swt) Just as honey while made by bees is medicine from Allaah(swt). Perhaps some people are guided by Allaah(swt) to become Muslim Doctors to assist us in times of illness. Just a thought and personal opinion.

[/QUOTE]

If the doctors are killing so many pateints today then i think a scholar should make a fatwa that states that all muslims must take care of themselves and it would be a sin to fall in the traps of the unhealthy states we are falling in today.. Just look at obesity.. surely allah hates the wasters of our ummah and the ones that eat foods that are so unhealthy....this clearly is a case of suicide only it is not with drugs any more its with doctors hospital and groceries..well yeah it still is with drugs..but legal ones may allah save us all from this fitnah...

 

[جوري]

We are talking almost everyday they misuse this profession and in mass numbers..

How is Medicine misused everyday? Do you want to give me numbers?
Let's divide it into helped vs. unhelped..

No profession is immune from human error, happens in engineering, in computing, in economics, in theology even.. so how about we look at the numbers.. if those unhelped outnumber those helped, perhaps we can have a lead to go on?

Again thios happens allot more than "it happens sometimes" we are talking about a daily misuse of medicine...

Pls elucidate your point with some statistics?

You admit that it is done but do you admit how often it is done??? Every single day and in mass numbers.. Check the statisitcs im sure you would be shocked.

Seems your job to bring us those statistics not reference us to elusive numbers?

I guess then majority of todays diagonoses arent even ethical and valid..

How so?

Not in the case of involunetary committment they do not... Quite distrubing..to accuse one of false accusations.. Isnt in islam you need like 2 witnesses.. If this man dies they could go to hell for slander and false accusations.. subhannallah..

In medicine even insane people have autonomy I reference you to this book
http://www.amazon.com/Kaplan-Medica...bs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230765119&sr=8-5

the only time a physician is allowed to hold a patient is if he is clear threat to himself or others, and s/he can't hold a patient longer than 72 hrs, from then on, only a court of law decides.. which really should let you to shift the blame to the court system not the clinical judgment of a physician

If the doctors are killing so many pateints today then i think a scholar should make a fatwa that states that all muslims must take care of themselves and it would be a sin to fall in the traps of the unhealthy states we are falling in today.. Just look at obesity.. surely allah hates the wasters of our ummah and the ones that eat foods that are so unhealthy....this clearly is a case of suicide only it is not with drugs any more its with doctors hospital and groceries..well yeah it still is with drugs..but legal ones may allah save us all from this fitnah...

They didn't use herbs and surgery during the time of the prophet? in Ghazwit Uhud, there wasn't basic surgery practiced on the battle field?

interesting

 

[Tariqa]

No profession is immune from human error, happens in engineering, in computing, in economics, in theology even.. so how about we look at the numbers.. if those unhelped outnumber those helped, perhaps we can have a lead to go on?

Pls elucidate your point with some statistics?

I can give you many stats.. Fo one the number of deaths of all the mental misdiagnosed of mental illness over the years is higher than all soldiers killed in all the us wars combined..

How so?

because the stats prove it...i will give you more statistics to prove that this profession is worst than all of the us wars combined..

In medicine even insane people have autonomy I reference you to this book
http://www.amazon.com/Kaplan-Medica...bs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230765119&sr=8-5

the only time a physician is allowed to hold a patient is if he is clear threat to himself or others, and s/he can't hold a patient longer than 72 hrs, from then on, only a court of law decides.. which really should let you to shift the blame to the court system not the clinical judgment of a physician

Even so pateints can be committed to hospitals for weeks with not a shred of evidecne this happens daily..

They didn't use herbs and surgery during the time of the prophet? in Ghazwit Uhud, there wasn't basic surgery practiced on the battle field?

Yes they used natural medications not artifically conventional methods of medication.. that is why more people are dying today then before ..everything seems to be so unreal..nothing they use today is natural harldy ever..

 

[جوري]

I can give you many stats.. Fo one the number of deaths of all the mental misdiagnosed of mental illness over the years is higher than all soldiers killed in all the us wars combined..

Ok, go ahead and we'll analyze them together!

because the stats prove it...i will give you more statistics to prove that this profession is worst than all of the us wars combined..

Ok, I'll be waiting for your stats!

Even so pateints can be committed to hospitals for weeks with not a shred of evidecne this happens daily..

and I just told you that even deranged patients have autonomy, given you a book if you'll bother read it about the cases that have shaped modern ethics. No ONE can be committed against their will unless they are a clear threat to themselves or others..
if you want you can google more about the The Case of Tatiana Tarasoff vs California Board of Regents

Yes they used natural medications not artifically conventional methods of medication.. that is why more people are dying today then before ..everything seems to be so unreal..nothing they use today is natural harldy ever..

in fact many medications used today are naturally derived.. It is an expansive topic, I can get into it if you'd like, but I have already discussed how everything from human urine, to fish testicles is used in modern medicine...
for such diseases as HIV, synthetic isomers are derived as to interlock with enzymes and arrest them from replication. Such advances have allowed people who would have otherwise died in a few months to living for twenty years or more..

Indeed Allah swt has given us knowledge and intelligence to combat some of the things that plague us in this world, and that is commendable.
I'll have to wager that you are rather under-educated when it comes to modern medicine, and how it relates to Islam..
I'd hope for your sake that you'd re-consider your position before you drive many around you who could potentially be in serious need of medical attention to the brink because of some beliefs that you hold that are otherwise unfounded, either medically or theologically!


and Allah swt knows best

waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

 

[Tariqa]

Ok, I'll be waiting for your stats!

im still gathering

and I just told you that even deranged patients have autonomy, given you a book if you'll bother read it about the cases that have shaped modern ethics. No ONE can be committed against their will unless they are a clear threat to themselves or others..
if you want you can google more about the The Case of Tatiana Tarasoff vs California Board of Regents

i think you are wrong... who decides what a threat or not?? there are many people that are not threating.. they only may be deemed violent but many times they wouldnt hurt a fly so who judges that??

in fact many medications used today are naturally derived.. It is an expansive topic, I can get into it if you'd like, but I have already discussed how everything from human urine, to fish testicles is used in modern medicine...
for such diseases as HIV, synthetic isomers are derived as to interlock with enzymes and arrest them from replication. Such advances have allowed people who would have otherwise died in a few months to living for twenty years or more..

I think you are just not getting it.. This has nothing to do with medicines from natural sources.. just because they are from natural soucres does not mean anything.. it is the proccessing of natural sources that is the bad part and deadly part proven by doctors.. every time you take a natural substance and you alter it, it becomes processed.. the processing if products is lead our nations to desruction... if you can not give the medicin in its entire natural form then maybe its best not to give it all.. if you have to add chemicals to a natural product this is clearly a way to destroy the actual helpful enzymes in a product as well as taking chcmicals away or even heating the prodcut up.. any alteration is wrong in the case of medication... we should eat and use things in the most pure most natural.. it is the sunnah is it not..misqak?? water food.. ? is it not the sunnah to leave them in their natural ways???

and Allah swt knows best

allah hu alim

 

[جوري]

im still gathering

I was under the impression given the conviction in your writing that such stats would already be in your possession? nonetheless we'll be waiting insha'Allah for the moment you back up your claims with some evidence from a reputed source!

i think you are wrong... who decides what a threat or not?? there are many people that are not threating.. they only may be deemed violent but many times they wouldnt hurt a fly so who judges that??

who decides? licensed physicians who go through 8 yrs of school and anywhere from 3-7 years of residency and grueling exams -- further if you have read anything I wrote at all and mulled over it, you'd know that no one is held against their will unless they threaten harm to themselves or others! and confinement in the hospital is no more than 72 hrs. It costs $800 for a hospital bed alone at night let alone medication and services.. No one wants to hold anyone in a hospital unless they themselves will be liable by a court of law for letting a potential criminal go!

I think you are just not getting it.. This has nothing to do with medicines from natural sources.. just because they are from natural soucres does not mean anything.. it is the proccessing of natural sources that is the bad part and deadly part proven by doctors.. every time you take a natural substance and you alter it, it becomes processed.. the processing if products is lead our nations to desruction... if you can not give the medicin in its entire natural form then maybe its best not to give it all.. if you have to add chemicals to a natural product this is clearly a way to destroy the actual helpful enzymes in a product as well as taking chcmicals away or even heating the prodcut up.. any alteration is wrong in the case of medication... we should eat and use things in the most pure most natural.. it is the sunnah is it not..misqak?? water food.. ? is it not the sunnah to leave them in their natural ways???

Medications have to go through three or possible four phases of trials before they are put out for human use.. in phase IV any potential undesired side effects can mark the death of a Medication irregardless of time, money, research and FDA approval-- it is a 'grueling' process-- you can always purchase 'natural herbs' and risk a certain death with drugs unregulated by the FDA .. you really should read about that more? some of the diseases relevant to our time weren't relevant during the time of the prophet and vice versa... you want to treat such disease as acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL) with black seed and honey, be my guest, simply don't impose your views on the whole.. One thing I know for a fact is that Allah swt will ask us, what we have done with our health on the day of recompense.. if there is available treatment with 95% chance of cure rate and you chose to forgo it for delusions of 'natural cures' then just simply be responsible for your own soul.. I'd be very careful what information I spill out there with such authority.. You have no formal training in Islamic jurisprudence or in Medicine.. I don't know what you have to gain by disseminating this sort of nonsense?!





allah hu alim[/QUOTE]