Muslims using Western Psychology and Mental Illness: Permissible or lies?

[Trumble]

You may have never heard that mental illness is false because people do not like to discuss this matter...
To be fair ahki there is currently no proof to prove that mental illness for mental disorders are real regarding chemical imbalances in what not.. I cannot say as of yet that they are lies and metaphors because there is no proof on both sides.. One side is saying it is true while the other is saying is not.. The only thing side b can do is tell side a to prove it.. Until side a proves it side b has a valid opinion that mental illness is not true because it has no proof....

This is clearly differing from sciences like medical disorders such as cancer where lab test can prove its existence.. The same cannot be said for mental illness... There are no lab tests that confirms its validity even yet and still people are treated for a disorder that cannot be proved or seen.....

I'm obviously not a muslim (nor am I a psychologist or psychiatrist), but if you will forgive me..

You seem to be making an assumption here that all mental illness is associated with, if not identical with, physical disorders (which surely a 'chemical imbalance' must be?) For all I know some may well be but surely there is no requirement for that? Why should 'proof' needed to demonstrate the existence of mental illness be any different from the proof needed to demonstrate other purely mental phenomena such as, for example, intelligence (even if such phenomena should ultimately be reducible to the purely physical). There is no direct lab test for intelligence, we judge it by observations of behaviour tracing behaviour back, as it were, to its mental source - but nobody denies intelligence exists, and to varying degrees. Why should mental illness be any different?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I suppose in that case you may take your grievances to the owner of that website? I am sure you can see that I wasn't the one who wrote the article and have included the link so it will be easily accessible otherwise?



cheers

Sorry for that. I thought you wrote the intro.

 

[جوري]

Sorry for that. I thought you wrote the intro.

No just this much is my contribution

more on the subject

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_________________

http://londonmetisoc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=267&sid=7ea5b4eb434c230ea1e6c0465877e301

and

Instead of coming down hard on you, I should thank you, for exposing what ails some members of this umma..
May Allah grant us shifa from all that ails us, especially diseases of ignorance!

 

[Tariqa]

you totally missed the point.. you went off on a spur about muslim doctors.. I never denied there being muslim soctors.. i specifically said that it is not the sunnah to use doctors.. The prophet never accepted the help of doctors for himself nor did he forbid it.. He himeself did not rely on a doctor.. You keep going off aobout doctor this doctor that but the prophet himself did not use doctors for himself.. did you miss this point??

Why are you so proud of medicine and its acheivments when this has little to do with the sunnah.. Why are you not qouting from some religous acheivements.. Something that the prophet actually condoned.,..like religous knowledge or polital advantage(somthing muslims obviosuly is not excelling at).. how about dominion, how about being the most healthy so that we dont need doctors..how about most prolific in childre as is the sunnah to have many offsprings.. or did the modern advancements of birth control reduce this as well? How about the acheivement ofthings that are related to the sunnah, things the prophet condoned hisself... things he did..This is like qoting from an advancement in onions and garlic acheivments, it is not somthing the prophet did meaning it is not sunnah to take for oneself..

the prophet did not even himself take medicine and prohibited from anyone to pour it in anothers mouth, unlike the doctors forcinbg pateints to take medicine after they decline.. isnt this clearly agasint the sunnah??

 

[جوري]

FYI.. this is health and science section.. if you wished to discuss ahadith, fiqh, righteous people do it in the appropriatly delegated section? Or is this your spin to save face?
pls give it up, I am tired of your ignorance your antics and your tangents! just take a leave of absence come back with a different screen name and we'll pretend this never happened!

 

[Tariqa]

i guess insted of answering my question it must be easier for you to just get emotional..understood..

to the miss quoting about intellegence and mental illness.. this is not the same thing...mental illness cannot be proven.. not even through behavoir..

 

[جوري]

i guess insted of answering my question

Judging by your grammar, your poor insights, your total lack of knowledge of Islam and science , your inability to reflect on the wisdom of other members, all who have painstakingly slaved to help you transition to the road of common sense, I am not a bit surprised that you are incapable of apprehending what exactly goes into making a 'question'.. further, I don't really think you are interested in the multitudes of websites and feedback given you by other Muslims, our affairs are a shura amongst ourselves, if you don't partake in that, you are not one of us--simple!-- perhaps you enjoy standing in the jungle and pounding on your chest extra hard?

it must be easier for you to just get emotional..understood..

That is an incredibly wise reflection of self.. perhaps you should mull over why such a statement echoed from your keyboard..(psychiatry) would deem it an immature defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb :smile:

 

[Tariqa]

Judging by your grammar, your poor insights, your total lack of knowledge of Islam and science , your inability to reflect on the wisdom of other members, all who have painstakingly slaved to help you transition to the road of common sense, I am not a bit surprised that you are incapable of apprehending what exactly goes into making a 'question'.. further, I don't really think you are interested in the multitudes of websites and feedback given you by other Muslims, our affairs are a shura amongst ourselves, if you don't partake in that, you are not one of us--simple!-- perhaps you enjoy standing in the jungle and pounding on your chest extra hard?


That is an incredibly wise reflection of self.. perhaps you should mull over why such a statement echoed from your keyboard..(psychiatry) would deem it an immature defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb :smile:

i do not know what else to say.. you say we are a shura.. but i think i have some knowledge many of you do not..

I ask you a few simple questions about medicine.. Being that medicine is not somthing the prophet did himslef, do you not say taking the aid of a doctor is not sunnah or somthing the prophet did not do himself.. isnt it better to do what the prophet did and obstain from what he abstained from?


i understand if you would like to give up on this subject but just remmeber the people around the clock who are dying, we need answers, we need truth..

 

[جوري]

i do not know what else to say.. you say we are a shura.. but i think i have some knowledge many of you do not..

You have secret knowledge apparently no one else in the world has!

I ask you a few simple questions about medicine..

and they are?

Being that medicine is not somthing the prophet did himslef, do you not say taking the aid of a doctor is not sunnah or somthing the prophet did not do himself.. isnt it better to do what the prophet did and obstain from what he abstained from?

And I have proven to you that medicine, surgery and hospitals existed as far back as the prophet, many contending that prophet Mohammed himself was the frst physician amongst other things he was. Black seed and Honey wasn't the only herb used during the prophet's time further gone to give you a link of where you can purchase a book on prophetic medicine so you can educate yourself on the matter before yapping here?

i understand if you would like to give up on this subject but just remmeber the people around the clock who are dying, we need answers, we need truth..

Exactly what are your hopes in stopping progress of medicine? Do you not believe in divine decree and that death is something man is meant to endure-- you can't stop cellular aging and dying with medicine, but you can help restore people's lives to normal base line.. type I diabetics didn't survive a hundred yrs ago, and if untreated is rather a deadly disease, thanks to Allah swt for the gift of reason we are now able to utilize E.Coli bacteria to synthesize Insulin, do you want to give Honey to a diabetic and deem it curative? or do you think they deserve to die because they have committed sin, or are you suggesting that they have brought it upon themselves when it can manifest as young as 3 yrs of age? .. al-mawt 3lyna 7aq (death is truth) and every soul shall taste it!

but, Allah swt will ask you of your health on the day of recompense for it too is a gift, whether you discarded it chasing after flowery dreams when aid was available!

I am done with you guy.. go live whatever way you want to live away from us.. A3ooth billah min al jahl, walkasal!

 

[Tariqa]

And I have proven to you that medicine, surgery and hospitals existed as far back as the prophet, many contending that prophet Mohammed himself was the frst physician amongst other things he was. Black seed and Honey wasn't the only herb used during the prophet's time further gone to give you a link of where you can purchase a book on prophetic medicine so you can educate yourself on the matter before yapping here?

You did not answer my question.. I am not asking did medicine exist back in that time i am asking did the prophet use the help of doctors yes or no??..
Simple question not the question as to did he perform surgery or what not but did he (was he the recepient) take the help of a doctor.. this is a very simple question and it seems you do not know..

Exactly what are your hopes in stopping progress of medicine? Do you not believe in divine decree and that death is something man is meant to endure-- you can't stop cellular aging and dying with medicine, but you can help restore people's lives to normal base line.. type I diabetics didn't survive a hundred yrs ago, and if untreated is rather a deadly disease, thanks to Allah swt for the gift of reason we are now able to utilize E.Coli bacteria to synthesize Insulin, do you want to give Honey to a diabetic and deem it curative? or do you think they deserve to die because they have committed sin, or are you suggesting that they have brought it upon themselves when it can manifest as young as 3 yrs of age? .. al-mawt 3lyna 7aq (death is truth) and every soul shall taste it!

Not stopping the progress but advancing by going back to the sunnah.. We are so chemically altered.. Do we even know the way back..?

 

[جوري]

You did not answer my question.. I am not asking did medicine exist back in that time i am asking did the prophet use the help of doctors yes or no??..

sure he did.. a doctor is someone who gives medical treatment to those who need it, the profession has evolved over time but that is because many quacks (I imagine the likes of you) proclaimed they can cure things which they couldn't and did more harm than good, thus institutions were built to set the standards of medical care-- the basics of medicine hasn't changed, even if there are licensure and proper schooling requirement established since.. You should read about what happened to the prophet after ghazwit uhud for starters or any of the links given you if you can perhaps descend down back to earth to meet with the rest of humanity instead of reveling in conspiracy theories!..
honestly, what is wrong with you?

Simple question not the question as to did he perform surgery or what not but did he (was he the recepient) take the help of a doctor.. this is a very simple question and it seems you do not know..

I have just answered your question see above reply-- again the answer is yes!.. regardless, why are you comparing the rest of humanity with their new diseases to that which might have ailed the prophet himself centuries ago.. Do you honestly have a point?

Not stopping the progress but advancing by going back to the sunnah.. We are so chemically altered.. Do we even know the way back..?

Don't be chemically altered then.. I have seen hypocrites such as yourself, 'Jehovah witnesses', adamant upon not receiving blood transfusions during surgery (which by the way contradictory to your popular belief, medical ethics mandates that you must respect the patient's autonomy and can't force treatment on those who choose to do without) so you ask them to sign a form AMA and inform them that death is imminent, and you'll be surprised how fast they forgo 'Jehovah' for dear life!

 

[Tariqa]

sure he did.. a doctor is someone who gives medical treatment to those who need it, the profession has evolved over time but that is because many quacks (I imagine the likes of you) proclaimed they can cure things which they couldn't and did more harm than good, thus institutions were built to set the standards of medical care-- the basics of medicine hasn't changed, even if there are licensure and proper schooling requirement established since.. You should read about what happened to the prophet after ghazwit uhud for starters or any of the links given you if you can perhaps descend down back to earth to meet with the rest of humanity instead of reveling in conspiracy theories!..

can you give an example....

and if you find any examples beside the cupping incidents, i will give you an example.. do you rememeber when the man came to the prophet and offered him doctors as a gifrt and the prophet(p) declined the gift..If you are familiar with this hadith can do you remember his exact words??

I have just answered your question see above reply-- again the answer is yes!.. regardless, why are you comparing the rest of humanity with their new diseases to that which might have ailed the prophet himself centuries ago.. Do you honestly have a point?

I was of the notion that the prophet did not like medicine in fact when he was sick he repremended those that tried to pour medicine in his mouth.. are you not aware of this..?

Don't be chemically altered then.. I have seen hypocrites such as yourself, 'Jehovah witnesses', adamant upon not receiving blood transfusions during surgery (which by the way contradictory to your popular belief, medical ethics mandates that you must respect the patient's autonomy and can't force treatment on those who choose to do without) so you ask them to sign a form AMA and inform them that death is imminent, and you'll be surprised how fast they forgo 'Jehovah' for dear life!

Miss lets get one thing clear.. people like chemical lifestyles nowadays.. It is there fault that they need transfusions.. Even for little babies this is somthing that they may inherit from the ills of the parents and bad lifestyles through genetics.. If we dont take care of our bodies then this is what we will become, relying on chemical fixes instead of natural ones..

Like the ayat says, the mushirkeen are for the mushrikeen and the believer for the believer, in the same way if you live a chemical lifestlye you will recive a chemcial treatment in medicine, and if you live a natural lifestlye you will recieve a natural healings..

You say we are the healtiest we have been in 200 years?\
So what.. i told you that people lived allot loned 2000 years ago.. 200 years ago people were no different then today, maybe more ignorant or less.. they are no examples to compare to..

 

[alcurad]

the longevity we have nowadays is simply incredible in contrast to humans before us,what role do you think medicine plays in that? the flu killed over twenty million of people at the first quarter of the previous century, the FLU..
this is getting offtrack though, wasn't the discussion about psychology, now it's about chemical or natural?? we're meant to regress to the neolithic era now?
natural medicine is also chemical isn't it..

 

[Tariqa]

the longevity we have nowadays is simply incredible in contrast to humans before us,what role do you think medicine plays in that? the flu killed over twenty million of people at the first quarter of the previous century, the FLU..
this is getting offtrack though, wasn't the discussion about psychology, now it's about chemical or natural?? we're meant to regress to the neolithic era now?
natural medicine is also chemical isn't it..

No this conversation is about medicine in genral conventional methods, doctors, forms of medical treatment.. which happens to accomdate mental illness..

I keep trying to tell the people that people in the times of the prophets such as prophet musa(a) they used to live hundreds of years longer than us...
just because we are doing better then 1776 does not mean we are doning better that 776 or even 76 or 7666bc... these people were allot healthier than we are today.. 200 years is not enough to judge how good are medicines are when the people before us proved for thousands of years that they could maintain good health...

yes natural medicine is chemical its not about natural or non matural its about artifical vs authentic.. the medicine should be kept in its most purest form without any man made processing.. when the chemicals of a natural source is processed this is where the complacations set in...

 

[Trumble]

I keep trying to tell the people that people in the times of the prophets such as prophet musa(a) they used to live hundreds of years longer than us...

You do indeed, but I don't think anybody except you actually believes it. There is no evidence to support such a contention. I wasn't aware the Islamic tradition assigned Moses a lifespan above 100 years or so (?), and the OT only credits him reaching 120. For the general population the average lifespan was far less than it is now... and any benefit from being chemical-free was more than outweighed by disease, malnutrition and the general brutality experienced living in those times.

 

[doorster]

I wasn't aware the Islamic tradition assigned .....

I believe him to be either a fraud or an imbecile because he refuses to answer questions put to him instead he rambles on and on, making claims about xyz is Islamic without being willing or able to back it up (other than saying (anonymous) scholars said), which is against the site rules.

18. Do not say "Islam says X" unless your position is based upon sound evidence - which means the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Always cite your sources (i.e. what page of which book).

 

[Tariqa]

how about the prophet ad or naoh (a) they suerely did

 

[doorster]

how about the prophet ad or naoh (a) they suerely did

what? what did you just say?

 

[جوري]

can you give an example....

and if you find any examples beside the cupping incidents, i will give you an example.. do you rememeber when the man came to the prophet and offered him doctors as a gifrt and the prophet(p) declined the gift..If you are familiar with this hadith can do you remember his exact words??

If you have a hadith to share by all means do. especially one that forbids progress.. I am not going to do your home work for you!

But I will share this hadith

The Prophet (SAW) said, "For any disease there is a cure, and when the cure matches the disease, the person recovers, by the will of Allah..."

I was of the notion that the prophet did not like medicine in fact when he was sick he repremended those that tried to pour medicine in his mouth.. are you not aware of this..?

Again, if you have a hadith, as I myself have done above then pls do share ..further--

the opinion of Imam Bukhari, realized the importance of the art of medicine as a means to preserve health and restore it, if one falls into illness, into the normal condition. Following the idea of Imam Bukhari, the majority of the Sunni legal schools accept the use of medicines because it does not deny the belief of God’s destiny (al-tadawi la yunafi al-tawakkal).[2] For this reason, Ibn Hajr (773–852/1372-1449), the author of Fath al-Bari, advised a patient to seek relief and healing from any physical or mental ailment by means of medical assistance and treatment; and not only by putting one’s trust in God’s power and mercy. This interpretation was essentially a distraction from the ahadith, although in many cases the Prophet (s.a.w) did not provide specific drugs for certain treatment. However, we are responsible to find its cure because Allah (s.a.w) mercifully provides cures for all illnesses except death and old age. Imam Bukhari reported the hadith of the Prophet (s.a.w): “for every disease there is a remedy, and when the remedy is made apparent, then the disease is cured by the permission of Allah, the Almighty.” Connecting to this hadith, Imam Bukhari reported that Abu Hurayrah narrated the hadith of the Prophet: “Allah has not created any disease without also creating a medicine or a remedy for it (ma anzala Allah da’ illa anzala lahu shifa’).”[3]


source
Umdah al-Qari Sharh Sahih Bukhari by Badr al-Din `Ayni (762-855/1361-1452), 25 vols. (Beirut: Dar Ihya’ al-turath al-`Arabi, n.d); Fath al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih Bukhari by Ibn Hajr al-`Asqalani (773–852/1372-1449), 13 vols. (Beirut: Dar al-kutub al-`ilmiyyah, 1989).

Miss lets get one thing clear.. people like chemical lifestyles nowadays.. It is there fault that they need transfusions.. Even for little babies this is somthing that they may inherit from the ills of the parents and bad lifestyles through genetics.. If we dont take care of our bodies then this is what we will become, relying on chemical fixes instead of natural ones..

Far it be from me to wish disease upon you or yours, so you'd get an understanding of what it means to be sick and need cure.. instead I pray that Allah swt bestows upon you a discerning brain and fast! -- you only embarrass yourself and do Islam and humanity a great disservice every time you open your mouth or fiddle with your keyboard to eject nonsense

Like the ayat says, the mushirkeen are for the mushrikeen and the believer for the believer, in the same way if you live a chemical lifestlye you will recive a chemcial treatment in medicine, and if you live a natural lifestlye you will recieve a natural healings..

I love your interpretation of Quranic verses to suit your ends oh great mullah

You say we are the healtiest we have been in 200 years?\
So what.. i told you that people lived allot loned 2000 years ago.. 200 years ago people were no different then today, maybe more ignorant or less.. they are no examples to compare to..

And I asked you if from the time of the prophet and since if anyone lived to such numbers? Did the prophet himself live to be a hundred? or two hundred or 1000?

 

[Tariqa]

]If you have a hadith to share by all means do. especially one that forbids progress.. I am not going to do your home work for you!

The hadith is the hadith where the man of another land casme to him and offered him doctors for his city. The prophet replied that we are a people that only eat when we get hungry and we have no need for doctors.. The prophet himself declined the gift of doctors for his ummah which signifies that your health is better taken care of by yourself and not depended on others such as doctors...

But I will share this hadith

The Prophet (SAW) said, "For any disease there is a cure, and when the cure matches the disease, the person recovers, by the will of Allah..."

How about black seed is cure for every disease except death.. Surely this is true and and bad cases we do not need blood transfusions when there is black seed. Are you saying this hadith is outdated and the prophet is a liar...

And I asked you if from the time of the prophet and since if anyone lived to such numbers? Did the prophet himself live to be a hundred? or two hundred or 1000?

[/QUOTE]
the prophet had said that every generation has a life span and his life span was to about 60 years of age... no they did not live for long periods of time but the people before him did..If we are living longer than his time does that make it wrong...? Is it not the sunnah to die young??