Paris opens door to author fleeing "Islamist threats"

[Ali.]

Alright, I want no major derailing here, just speaking in general this is not directed at anyone. Whatsthepoint, are you going to post your examples?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

You said, 'You don't want links or outside sources' in other words everyone speaking out of their a$$.. in fact, before I search for a particular hadith or verse, I usually know exactly what I am looking for it is a matter of rummaging for numbers that others can verify.. I have a perfectly good idea what you'll allege and I know exactly how misinformed you are.. It is not a matter of a woman being happy with it or not..
Some subjects are an issue of creed.. for instance why do men have to undergo a circumcision (it is barbaric) and unnecessary (even if it were true) it is part of the covenant, somethings are done for the pleasure of God, not the pleasure of people.. It is one of those things like when you sign for a job and don't like your vacation or insurance plan... Things aren't decided on the whimsy of men this is divine law.. if you build your faith on logic, then those parts of it that seem illogical simply come with the territory until it is later manifest to man why it is so.. or until the day or recompense happens and reasons for it unraveled then!

I said no linking to existing threads, that doesn't include outside sources.

 

[جوري]

I said no linking to existing threads, that doesn't include outside sources.

Some of the existing threads already have the answers, what is the point of finding it else where and not here.. do you just want to recycle the same old rhetoric?
If you have questioned, and you were given the sufficient response-- it is really not anyone's problem what you deem fair or unfair.. that is your own mind at work and has no basis in reality!~

anyhow, I don't want to have fifty thousand posts dancing around a subject, if you have a query pose it already!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Some of the existing threads already have the answers, what is the point of finding it else where and not here.. do you just want to recycle the same old rhetoric?
If you have questioned, and you were given the sufficient response-- it is really not anyone's problem what you deem fair or unfair.. that is your own mind at work and has no basis in reality!~

anyhow, I don't want to have fifty thousand posts dancing around a subject, if you have a query pose it already!

I said I didn't want to debate, I merely expressed my opinion that Islam give less rights to women that a modern secular state.
Obviously the answers were sufficient for you, but not for everyone else.

 

[جوري]

Ok.
1. Why women can't be heads of state?

Safety on the job for starters!

'This distinction between equality and sameness is of paramount importance. Equality is desirable, just and fair; but sameness is not. People are not created identical but they are created equals. With this distinction in mind, there is no room to imagine that woman is inferior to man. There is no ground to assume that she is less important than he just because her rights are not identically the same as his. Had her status been identical with his, she would have been simply a duplicate of him, which she is not. The fact that Islam gives her equal rights - but not identical - shows that it takes her into due consideration, acknowledges her, and recognizes her independent personality'
Thus let me answer your Q with another Q-- has the U.S ever had a woman president? Do the people want a woman president? Do women themselves want to be president with all that that job entails? by same token do you have women sanitation engineers-- the ones who pick up garbage? How about Women competing against men in the Olympics? Before you question a particular proscription, you must find logic behind it.. If you can come up with a legitimate reason why in such events as the Olympics, women compete against women and men compete against men can you make that leap of why no women presidents.. that is not to say, they can't hold governmental shari3a jobs..
be that as it may, There were in fact women heads of state as far back as 12th century, something that still hasn't happened in the USA in the twenty first.. like Queen Arwa of Jiblah and recently, Bhutto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwa_al-Sulayhi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto

What Islam has established for woman is that which suits her nature, gives her full security and protects her against disgraceful circumstances and uncertain channels of life.


you know akin to

or

perhaps the day you can guarantee a woman security in such a job, would there be no divine wisdom in a woman holding such a position!

1- Woman is recognized by Islam as a full and equal partner of man in the procreation of humankind. He is the father; she is the mother, and both are essential for life. Her role is not less vital than his. By this partnership she has an equal share in every aspect; she is entitled to equal rights; she undertakes equal responsibilities, and in her there are as many qualities and as much humanity as there are in her partner.

To this equal partnership in the reproduction of human kind Allah says:

(O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made `you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.) (Al-Hujurat 49: 13)

2- She is equal to man in bearing personal and common responsibilities and in receiving rewards for her deeds. She is acknowledged as an independent personality, in possession of human qualities and worthy of spiritual aspirations. Her human nature is neither inferior to nor deviant from that of man. Both are members of one another. Allah Almighty says:

(And their Lord hath heard them (and He saith): Lo! I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another…) (Aal `Imran 3: 195)

3- She is equal to man in the pursuit of education and knowledge. When Islam enjoins the seeking of knowledge upon Muslims, it makes no distinction between man and woman. Almost fourteen centuries ago, Muhammad declared that the pursuit of knowledge is incumbent on every Muslim male and female. This declaration was very clear and was implemented by Muslims throughout history.

4- She is entitled to freedom of expression as much as man is. Her sound opinions are taken into consideration and cannot be disregarded just because she happen to belong to the female sex. It is reported in the Qur'an and history that woman not only expressed her opinion freely but also argued and participated in serious discussions with the Prophet himself as well as with other Muslim leaders. Allah Almighty says:

(Allah hath heard the saying of her that disputeth with thee (Muhammad) concerning her husband, and complaineth unto Allah. And Allah heareth your colloquy. Lo! Allah is Nearer, Knower. Such of you as put away your wives (by saying they are as their mothers) They are not their mothers; none are their mothers except those who gave them birth they indeed utter an ill word and a lie. And lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Those who put away their wives (by saying they are as their mothers) and afterward would go back on that which they have said; (the penalty) in that case (is) the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. Unto this ye are exhorted; and Allah is informed of what ye do.) (Al-Mujadalah 58: 1-4)

Besides there were occasions when Muslim women expressed their views on legislative matters of public interest, and stood in opposition to the Caliphs, who then accepted the sound arguments of these women. A specific example took place during the Caliphate of `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him.

5- Historical records show that women participated in public life with the early Muslims, especially in times of emergencies. Women used to accompany the Muslim armies engaged in battles to nurse the wounded, prepare supplies, serve the warriors, and so on. They were not shut behind iron bars or considered worthless creatures and deprived of souls.

6- Islam grants woman equal rights to contract, to enterprise, to earn and possess independently. Her life, her property, her honor are as sacred as those of man. If she commits any offense, her penalty is no less or more than of man's in a similar case. If she is wronged or harmed, she gets due compensations equal to what a man in her position would get. Allah Almighty says:

(O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 195)

7- Islam does not state these rights in a statistical form and then relax. It has taken all measures to safeguard them and put them into practice as integral articles of Faith. It never tolerates those who are inclined to prejudice against woman or discrimination between man and woman. Time and again, the Qur'an reproaches those who used to believe woman to be inferior to man. Allah Almighty says:

(And they assign unto Allah daughters. Be He glorified! and unto themselves what they desire; When if one of them receiveth tidings of the birth of a female, his face remaineth darkened, and he is wroth inwardly. He bideth himself from the folk because of the evil of that whereof he hath bad tidings, (asking himself): Shall he keep it in contempt, or bury it beneath the dust. Verily evil is their judgment.) (An-Nahl 16: 57-59)

8- Apart from recognition of woman as an independent human being acknowledged as equally essential for the survival of humanity, Islam has given her a share of inheritance. Before Islam, she was not only deprived of that share but was herself considered as property to be inherited by man. Out of that transferable property Islam made an heir, acknowledging the inherent human qualifies in woman. Whether she is a wife or mother, a sister or daughter, she receives a certain share of the deceased kin's property, a share which depends on her degree of relationship to the deceased and the number of heirs. This share is hers, and no one can take it away or disinherit her. Even if the deceased wishes to deprive her by making a will to other relations or in favor of any other cause, the Law will not allow him to do so. Any proprietor is permitted to make his will within the limit of one-third of his property, so he may not affect the rights of his heirs, men and women. In the case of inheritance, the question of quality and sameness is fully applicable. In principle, both man and woman are equally entitled to inherit the property of the deceased relations but the portions they get may vary. In some instances man receives two shares whereas woman gets one only. This no sign of giving preference or supremacy to man over woman. The reasons why man gets more in these particular instances may be classified as follows:

1- First man, is the person solely responsible for the complete maintenance of his wife, his family and any other needy relations. It is his duty by Law to assume all financial responsibilities and maintain his dependents adequately. It is also his duty to contribute financially to all good causes in his society. All financial burdens are borne by him alone.

2- Secondly, in contrast, woman has no financial responsibilities whatsoever except very little of her personal expenses, the high luxurious things that she likes to have. She is financially secure and provided for. If she is a wife, her husband is the provider; if she is a mother, it is the son; if she is a daughter, it is the father; if she is a sister; it is the brother, and so on. If she has no relations on whom she can depend, then there is no question of inheritance because there is nothing to inherit and there is no one to bequeath anything to her. However, she will not be left to starve, maintenance of such a woman is the responsibility of the society as a whole, the state. She may be given aid or a job to earn her living, and whatever money she makes will be hers. She is not responsible for the maintenance of anybody else beside herself. If there is a man in her position, he would still be responsible for his family and possibly any of his relations who need his help. So, in the hardest situation her financial responsibility is limited, while his is unlimited.

3- Thirdly, when a woman gets less than a man does, she is not actually deprived of anything that she has worked for. The property inherited is not the result of her earning or her endeavors. It is something coming to them from a neutral source, something addition-al or extra. It is something that neither man or woman struggled for. It is a sort of aid, and any aid has to be distributed according to the urgent needs and responsibilities especially when the distribution is regulated by the Law of Allah.

4- Now, we have a male heir, on one side, burdened with all kinds of financial responsibilities and liabilities. We have, on the other side, a female heir with no financial responsibilities at all or at most with very little of it. In between we have some property and aid to redistribute by way of inheritance. If we deprive the female completely, it would be unjust to her because she is related to the deceased. Likewise, if we always give her a share equal to the man's, it would be unjust to him. So, instead of doing injustice to either side, Islam gives the man a larger portion of the inherited property to help him to meet his family needs and social responsibilities. At the same time, Islam has not forgotten her altogether, but has given her a portion to satisfy her very personal needs. In fact, Islam in this respect is being more kind to her than to him. Here we can say that when taken as a whole the rights of woman are equal to those of man although not necessarily identical. Allah Almighty says:

(Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents or your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, rise.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 11)

1- Woman enjoys certain privileges of which man is deprived. She is exempt from some religious duties, i.e., prayers and fasting, in her regular periods and at times of confinement. She is exempt from all financial liabilities. As a mother, she enjoys more recognition and higher honor in the sight of Allah. Allah Almighty says:

(And We have enjoined upon man concerning his parents. His mother beareth him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in two years. Give thanks unto Me and unto thy parents. Unto Me is the journeying.) (Luqman 31: 14)

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, acknowledged this honor when he declared that Paradise is under the feet of the mothers. She is entitled to three-fourths of the son's love and kindness with one-fourth left for their father. As a wife she is entitled to demand of her prospective husband a suitable dowry that will be her own. She is entitled to complete provision and total maintenance by the husband. She does not have to work or share with her husband the family expenses. She is free to retain, after marriage, whatever she possessed before it, and the husband has no right whatsoever to any of her belongings. As a daughter or sister she is entitled to security and provision by the father and brother respectively. That is her privilege. If she wishes to work or be self-supporting and participate in handling the family responsibilities, she is quite free to do so, provided her integrity and honor are safeguarded.

2- The standing of woman in prayers behind man does not indicate in any sense that she is inferior to him. Woman, as already mentioned, is exempt from attending congregational prayers which are obligatory on man. But if she does attend she stands in separate lines made up of women exclusively. This is a regulation of discipline in prayers, and not a classification of importance. In men's rows the head of state stands shoulder to shoulder to the pauper. Men of the highest ranks in society stand in prayer side by side with other men of the lowest ranks. The order of lines in prayers is introduced to help every one to concentrate in his meditation. It is very important because Muslim prayers are not simply chanting or the sing-a-song type. They involve actions, motions, standing, bowing, prostration, etc. So if men mix with women in the same lines, it is possible that something disturbing or distracting may happen. The mind will become occupied by something alien to prayer and derailed from the clear path of mediation. The result will be a loss of the purpose of prayers, besides an offense of adultery committed by the eye, because the eye-by looking at forbidden things - can be guilty of adultery as much as the heart itself. Moreover, no Muslim man or woman is allowed during prayers to touch the body of another person of the opposite sex. If men and women stand side by side in prayer they cannot avoid touching each other. Furthermore, when a woman is praying in front of a man or beside him, it is very likely that any part of her dressed body may become uncovered after a certain motion of bowing or prostrating. The man's eye may happen to be looking at the uncovered part, with the result that she will be embarrassed and he will be exposed to distraction or possibly evil thoughts. So, to avoid any embarrassment and distraction to help concentrate on mediation and pure thoughts, to maintain harmony and order among worshippers, to fulfill the true purposes of prayers, Islam has ordained the organization of rows, whereby men stand in front lines, and women behind the children. Anyone with some knowledge of the nature and purpose of Muslim prayers can readily understand the wisdom of organizing the lines of worshippers in this manner.

3- The Muslim woman is always associated with an old tradition known as the "veil". It is Islamic that the woman should beautify herself with the veil of honor, dignity, chastity, purity and integrity. She should refrain from all deeds and gestures that might stir the passions of people other than her legitimate husband or cause evil suspicion of her morality. She is warned not to display her charms or expose her physical attractions before strangers. The veil, which she must put on, is one that can save her soul from weakness, her mind from indulgence, her eyes from lustful looks, and her personality from demoralization. Islam is most concerned with the integrity of woman, with the safeguarding of her morals and morale and with the protection of her character and personality

4- By now it is clear that the status of woman in Islam is unprecedentedly high and realistically suitable to her nature. Her rights and duties are equal to those of man but not necessarily or absolutely identical with them. If she is deprived of one thing in some aspect, she is fully compensated for it with more things in many other aspects. The fact that she belongs to the female sex has no bearing on her human status or independent personality, and it is no basis for justification of prejudice against her or injustice to her person. Islam gives her as much as is required of her. Her rights match beautifully with her duties. The balance between rights and duties is maintained, and no side overweighs the other. The whole status of woman is given clearly in the Qur'an. Allah Almighty says:

(Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 228)

This degree is not a title of supremacy or an authorization of dominance over her. It is to correspond with the extra responsibilities of man and give him some compensation for his unlimited liabilities. The above-mentioned verse is always interpreted in the light of another. Allah Almighty says:

(Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath men the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 34)

It is these extra responsibilities that give man a degree over woman in some economic aspects. It is not a higher degree in humanity or in character. Nor is it a dominance of one over the other or suppression of one by the other. It is a distribution of Allah's abundance according to the needs of the nature of which Allah is the Maker. And He knows best what is good for woman and what is good for man. Allah is absolutely true when He says:

(O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim ( your rights ) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you ). Lo! Allah hath been a Watcher over you.) (An-Nisaa' 4: 1)


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544308


hope that answers your first Q

 

[جوري]

I said I didn't want to debate, I merely expressed my opinion that Islam give less rights to women that a modern secular state.
Obviously the answers were sufficient for you, but not for everyone else.

You have an incorrect opinion, which you are right, you are free to hold but not have imposed on us as a valid view!

cheers

 

[aadil77]

I think many times women such as Ms. Nasreen are victims of cultural distortions of Islam (for instance, in Saudi Arabia, women can't drive). I don't think there is a (Muslim majority) country in the world that gives women the rights they had at the time of Muhammad SAW.

Yes she must have been the victim of some backwards cultural traditions, which she's blamed on islam

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Why are women protected and men not?
To answer your Qs. Yes, several women have had wanted to be come US presidents. Yes, you got female sanitation engineers.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

You have an incorrect opinion, which you are right, you are free to hold but not have imposed on us as a valid view!

cheers

Ditto!

 

[جوري]

Why are women protected and men not?
To answer your Qs. Yes, several women have had wanted to be come US presidents. Yes, you got female sanitation engineers.

Why shouldn't women be protected? why can't men give birth? why should women have to bear the burden of monthly visitors and childbirth?

'wanted to become' and becoming president are different things no? it is rather evident from the fact that none of them made it to office that people didn't want them there?.. I have already given you two examples of women heads of state, one as far back as the 12th century in the Muslim world, unfortunately for the latter what is feared is what happened (assassination).. when you put yourself in that postilion ready yourself for what comes your way, whether orphaning your children or losing your dear life... and no, women don't pick up the garbage in the US they may work in the dept. but they don't travel picking big garbage pails.. if they do where you come from, more power to them..

you still haven't answered why men and women don't compete against each other in the Olympics?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Why shouldn't women be protected? why can't men give birth? why should women have to bear the burden of monthly visitors and childbirth?

'wanted to become' and becoming president are different things no? it is rather evident from the fact that none of them made it to office that people didn't want them there?.. I have already given you two examples of women heads of state, one as far back as the 12th century in the Muslim world, unfortunately for the latter what is feared is what happened (assassination).. when you put yourself in that postilion ready yourself for what comes your way, whether orphaning your children or losing your dear life... and no, women don't pick up the garbage in the US they may work in the dept. but they don't travel picking big garbage pails.. if they do where you come from, more power to them..

you still haven't answered why men and women don't compete against each other in the Olympics?

Are women incapable of protecting themselves or is it because they're more valuable?
It doesn't matter if people didn't want them there.
Because male athletes tend to be physically stronger then female athletes. The same is not true for male and female heads of state, so the comparison is inappropriate.

 

[جوري]

It doesn't matter if people didn't want them there.

sure it does, it makes all the difference in the world!

Because male athletes tend to be physically stronger then female athletes. The same is not true for male and female heads of state, so the comparison is inappropriate.

I suppose you'll have to reluctantly concede that men and women have differences whether physical or otherwise.. it is really not the point.. women can hold any political position in an Islamic state save for the head of state-- and I have already patently demonstrated what ails that position!


cheers

 

[جوري]

Are women incapable of protecting themselves or is it because they're more valuable?
.

Thanks for the addendum..

were those who had shoes thrown at them or assassinated with a fleet of secret service at hand able to protect themselves?
It isn't a matter of more valuable or not as I have clearly quoted you from the Quran that men and women are equal, but equality doesn't denote sameness. A man's jihad is different from a woman's jihad, though both are to perform it, both granted the same reward for it!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

sure it does, it makes all the difference in the world!


I suppose you'll have to reluctantly concede that men and women have differences whether physical or otherwise.. it is really not the point.. women can hold any political position in an Islamic state save for the head of state-- and I have already patently demonstrated what ails that position!


cheers

Female heads of state were elected in several countries.
There's the possibility of death, which is probably lower than in several other professions.

 

[جوري]

Female heads of state were elected in several countries.

So were they in the Muslim world? what is your point.. you speak of progress in the civilized world. well here a continent considered a 'super power' with no women presidents and failure of the people to recognize the importance of one.. I suppose you should argue this when one of them holds office?

There's the possibility of death, which is probably lower than in several other professions.

Really? is that why they are escorted by secret service every where? what as a sad existence it is, to live every moment of your life under some sort of threat..

if you have statistics share them.. some jobs aren't held by women even in the so-called civilized world.. there are no women construction workers, there are no women garbage pickers, and there are no women heads of state.. we can have this conversation again when it happens!

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Thanks for the addendum..

were those who had shoes thrown at them or assassinated with a fleet of secret service at hand able to protect themselves?
It isn't a matter of more valuable or not as I have clearly quoted you from the Quran that men and women are equal, but equality doesn't denote sameness. A man's jihad is different from a woman's jihad, though both are to perform it, both granted the same reward for it!

Why are men allowed to take risks and women not?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

So were they in the Muslim world? what is your point.. you speak of progress in the civilized world. well here a continent considered a 'super power' with no women presidents and failure of the people to recognize the importance of one.. I suppose you should argue this when one of them holds office?
Really? is that why they are escorted by secret service every where? what as a sad existence it is, to live every moment of your life under some sort of threat..
if you have statistics share them.. some jobs aren't held by women even in the so-called civilized world.. there are no women construction workers, there are no women garbage pickers, and there are no women heads of state.. we can have this conversation again when it happens!

cheers

Yes, they were. Bangladesh, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia and perhaps there's more.
The US is backwards in several areas.
What I'm trying to know is why men are allowed to make their existence a living hell, and women apparently aren't. You may have answered this already and I didn't notice.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

That's a bit of a vague question. What do you mean by risk? As in take part in war?

As in become heads of state and risking being assassinated.

 

[جوري]

Why are men allowed to take risks and women not?

وَأَنفِقُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَلاَ تُلْقُواْ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ إِلَى التَّهْلُكَةِ وَأَحْسِنُوَاْ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ {195}​

[Yusufali 2:195] And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.


It has nothing to do with risks.. it has to do with putting one in harms way..
Why do men do it.. I don't know, some people are best suited for certain jobs..
Men aren't suited to some of the jobs of women (yes have already given example) and vice versa and again ultimately it has nothing at all to do with equality.. it has to do with what you are better suited for!

 

[Amadeus85]

And no one of You thought that nowadays paris isnt best place to hide from muslim extremism.