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No-- I am asking for your understanding of Darwin's words!
not what it means to have half or full context!
peace
Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective
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No-- I am asking for your understanding of Darwin's words!
not what it means to have half or full context!
peace
czgibson
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Greetings,
Can you not see how reading the sentence out of context completely alters the meaning of Darwin's words?
Peace
Can you not see how reading the sentence out of context completely alters the meaning of Darwin's words?
Peace
it was just a quote from the BBC, in their "quote of the day"
i thought it was interesting! [and i read the whole quote!
]is that a crime now?
:blind:
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CZ, I am not asking you for context of half context.. I am simply asking you, your understanding of the full quote..
peace
You said mathematics rests upon assumptions that cannot be proven.
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Greetings,
And I stand by that.
When you said "Within that framework 2+2=4 can be proven", I thought we were on the same page, but evidently not.
Peace
And I stand by that.
When you said "Within that framework 2+2=4 can be proven", I thought we were on the same page, but evidently not.
Peace
Gator
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In Lab, Clues To How Life Began
by Nell Greenfieldboyce
All Things Considered, January 8, 2009 · Scientists long to understand how a bunch of chemicals on the early Earth transformed themselves into the first living creatures. Now one lab has made a self-replicating set of RNA molecules that the scientists say may mimic what might have happened during the early evolution of life.
In the link below is the replay of the radio broadcast, for more information.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99132608
by Nell Greenfieldboyce
All Things Considered, January 8, 2009 · Scientists long to understand how a bunch of chemicals on the early Earth transformed themselves into the first living creatures. Now one lab has made a self-replicating set of RNA molecules that the scientists say may mimic what might have happened during the early evolution of life.
In the link below is the replay of the radio broadcast, for more information.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99132608
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:haha: thanks.. I like the 'lab has made' portion of that post.. and especially this comment by one of the commentators
on the very page.. nonetheless, and even with direct human manipulation I'll be interested in the outcome of that experiment..
Thanks for that..
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Just FYI. Here's a printed summary from Scripps on the previously posted NPR report on RNA replication.
http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/010809.html
Thanks.
http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/010809.html
Thanks.
That is not what axioms are. Axioms are simply unproven assumptions, they need not be assumptions which can't be proven.
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indeed it is fascinating.. have you read it?
this for instance
and
In Vitro Evolution
nonetheless.. I will still be very interested of the outcome after much manipulation ..
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Just an interesting piece on transitional fossils.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience...rwinstheory;_ylt=AiLggZNI8uy1uhkw.TXsyrMDW7oF
Fossils Reveal Truth About Darwin's Theory
With the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin this week, people around the world are celebrating his role as the father of evolutionary theory. Events and press releases are geared, in part, to combat false claims made by some who would discredit the theory...
...Here is a short list of transitional fossils documented by Prothero and that add to the mountain of evidence for Charles Darwin's theory. A lot of us relate most to fossils of life closely related to humans, so the list focuses on mammals and other vertebrates, including dinosaurs.
Mammals, including us
It is now clear that the evolutionary tree for early and modern humans looks more like a bush than the line represented in cartoons. All the hominid fossils found to date form a complex nexus of specimens, Prothero says, but Sahelanthropus tchadensis, found in 2001 and 2002, threw everyone for a loop because it walked upright 7 million years ago on two feet but is quite chimp-like in its skull size, teeth, brow ridges and face. It could be a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees, but many paleoanthropologists will remain unsure until more fossils are found. Previously, the earliest ancestor of our Homo genus found in the fossil record dated back 6 million years.
-Most fossil giraffes have short necks and today's have long necks, but anatomist Nikos Solounias of the New York Institute of Technology's New York College of Osteopathic Medicine is preparing a description of a giraffe fossil, Bohlinia, with a neck that is intermediate in length.
Manatees, also called sea cows, are marine mammals that have flippers and a down-turned snout for grazing in warm shallow waters. In 2001, scientists discovered the fossil of a "walking manatee," Pezosiren portelli, which had feet rather than flippers and walked on land during the Eocene epoch (54.8 million years ago to 33.7 million years ago) in what is now Jamaica. Along with skull features like manatees (such as horizontal tooth replacement, like a conveyor belt), it also had heavy ribs for ballast, showing that it also had an aquatic lifestyle, like hippos.
Scientists know that mastodons, mammoths and elephants all share a common ancestor, but it gets hard to tell apart some of the earliest members of this group, called proboscideans, going back to fossils from the Oligocene epoch (33.7 million years ago to 23.8 million years ago). The primitive members of this group can be traced back to what Prothero calls "the ultimate transitional fossil," Moeritherium, from the late Eocene of Egypt. It looked more like a small hippo than an elephant and probably lacked a long trunk, but it had short upper and lower tusks, the teeth of a primitive mastodon and ear features found only in other proboscideans.
The Dimetrodon was a big predatory reptile with a tail and a large sail or fin-back. It is often mistaken for a dinosaur, but it's actually part of our mammalian lineage and more closely related to mammals than reptiles, which is seen in its specialized teeth for stabbing meat and skull features that only mammals and their ancestors had. It probably moved around like a lizard and had a jawbone made of multiple bones, like a reptile.
Dinosaurs and birds
The classic fossil of Archaeopteryx, sometimes called the first bird, has a wishbone (fully fused clavicle) which is only found in modern birds and some dinosaurs. But it also shows impressions from feathers on its body, as seen on many of the theropod dinosaurs from which it evolved. Its body, capable of flight or gliding, also had many of dinosaur features - teeth (no birds alive today have teeth), a long bony tail (tails on modern birds are entirely feathers, not bony), long hind legs and toes, and a specialized hand with long bony fingers (unlike modern bird wings in which the fingers are fused into a single element), Prothero said.
Sinornis was a bird that also has long bony fingers and teeth, like those seen in dinosaurs and not seen in modern birds.
Yinlong is a small bipedal dinosaur which shares features with two groups of dinosaurs known to many kids - ceratopsians, the beaked dinosaurs like Triceratops, and pachycephalosaurs, known for having a thick dome of bone in their skulls protecting their brains. Yinlong has the thick rostral bone that is otherwise unique to ceratopsians dinosaurs, and the thick skull roof found in the pachycephalosaurs.
Anchisaurus is a primitive sauropod dinosaur that has a lot of lizard-like features. It was only 8 feet long (the classic sauropods later on could be more than 100-feet long), had a short neck (sauropods are known for their long necks, while lizards are not), and delicate limbs and feet, unlike dinosaurs. Its spine was like that of a sauropod. The early sauropods were bipedal, while the latter were stood on all fours. Anchisaurus was probably capable of both stances, Prothero wrote.
Fish, frogs, turtles
Tiktaalik, aka the fishibian or the fishapod, is a large scaled fish that shows a perfect transition between fins and feet, aquatic and land animals. It had fish-like scales, as well as fish-like fin rays and jaw and mouth elements, but it had a shortened skull roof and mobile neck to catch prey, an ear that could hear in both land and water, and a wrist joint that is like those seen in land animals.
Last year, scientists announced the discovery of Gerobatrachus hottorni, aka the frogamander. Technically, it's a toothed amphibian, but it shows the common origins of frogs and salamanders, scientists say, with a wide skull and large ear drum (like frogs) and two fused ankle bones as seen in salamanders.
A creature on the way to becoming a turtle, Odontochelys semistestacea, swam around in China's coastal waters 200 million years ago. It had a belly shell but its back was basically bare of armor. Odontochelys had an elongated, pointed snout. Most modern turtles have short snouts. In addition, the roof of its mouth, along with the upper and lower jaws, was equipped with teeth, which the researchers said is a primitive feature for turtles whose mugs are now tipped with beaks but contain no teeth.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience...rwinstheory;_ylt=AiLggZNI8uy1uhkw.TXsyrMDW7oF
Fossils Reveal Truth About Darwin's Theory
With the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin this week, people around the world are celebrating his role as the father of evolutionary theory. Events and press releases are geared, in part, to combat false claims made by some who would discredit the theory...
...Here is a short list of transitional fossils documented by Prothero and that add to the mountain of evidence for Charles Darwin's theory. A lot of us relate most to fossils of life closely related to humans, so the list focuses on mammals and other vertebrates, including dinosaurs.
Mammals, including us
It is now clear that the evolutionary tree for early and modern humans looks more like a bush than the line represented in cartoons. All the hominid fossils found to date form a complex nexus of specimens, Prothero says, but Sahelanthropus tchadensis, found in 2001 and 2002, threw everyone for a loop because it walked upright 7 million years ago on two feet but is quite chimp-like in its skull size, teeth, brow ridges and face. It could be a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees, but many paleoanthropologists will remain unsure until more fossils are found. Previously, the earliest ancestor of our Homo genus found in the fossil record dated back 6 million years.
-Most fossil giraffes have short necks and today's have long necks, but anatomist Nikos Solounias of the New York Institute of Technology's New York College of Osteopathic Medicine is preparing a description of a giraffe fossil, Bohlinia, with a neck that is intermediate in length.
Manatees, also called sea cows, are marine mammals that have flippers and a down-turned snout for grazing in warm shallow waters. In 2001, scientists discovered the fossil of a "walking manatee," Pezosiren portelli, which had feet rather than flippers and walked on land during the Eocene epoch (54.8 million years ago to 33.7 million years ago) in what is now Jamaica. Along with skull features like manatees (such as horizontal tooth replacement, like a conveyor belt), it also had heavy ribs for ballast, showing that it also had an aquatic lifestyle, like hippos.
Scientists know that mastodons, mammoths and elephants all share a common ancestor, but it gets hard to tell apart some of the earliest members of this group, called proboscideans, going back to fossils from the Oligocene epoch (33.7 million years ago to 23.8 million years ago). The primitive members of this group can be traced back to what Prothero calls "the ultimate transitional fossil," Moeritherium, from the late Eocene of Egypt. It looked more like a small hippo than an elephant and probably lacked a long trunk, but it had short upper and lower tusks, the teeth of a primitive mastodon and ear features found only in other proboscideans.
The Dimetrodon was a big predatory reptile with a tail and a large sail or fin-back. It is often mistaken for a dinosaur, but it's actually part of our mammalian lineage and more closely related to mammals than reptiles, which is seen in its specialized teeth for stabbing meat and skull features that only mammals and their ancestors had. It probably moved around like a lizard and had a jawbone made of multiple bones, like a reptile.
Dinosaurs and birds
The classic fossil of Archaeopteryx, sometimes called the first bird, has a wishbone (fully fused clavicle) which is only found in modern birds and some dinosaurs. But it also shows impressions from feathers on its body, as seen on many of the theropod dinosaurs from which it evolved. Its body, capable of flight or gliding, also had many of dinosaur features - teeth (no birds alive today have teeth), a long bony tail (tails on modern birds are entirely feathers, not bony), long hind legs and toes, and a specialized hand with long bony fingers (unlike modern bird wings in which the fingers are fused into a single element), Prothero said.
Sinornis was a bird that also has long bony fingers and teeth, like those seen in dinosaurs and not seen in modern birds.
Yinlong is a small bipedal dinosaur which shares features with two groups of dinosaurs known to many kids - ceratopsians, the beaked dinosaurs like Triceratops, and pachycephalosaurs, known for having a thick dome of bone in their skulls protecting their brains. Yinlong has the thick rostral bone that is otherwise unique to ceratopsians dinosaurs, and the thick skull roof found in the pachycephalosaurs.
Anchisaurus is a primitive sauropod dinosaur that has a lot of lizard-like features. It was only 8 feet long (the classic sauropods later on could be more than 100-feet long), had a short neck (sauropods are known for their long necks, while lizards are not), and delicate limbs and feet, unlike dinosaurs. Its spine was like that of a sauropod. The early sauropods were bipedal, while the latter were stood on all fours. Anchisaurus was probably capable of both stances, Prothero wrote.
Fish, frogs, turtles
Tiktaalik, aka the fishibian or the fishapod, is a large scaled fish that shows a perfect transition between fins and feet, aquatic and land animals. It had fish-like scales, as well as fish-like fin rays and jaw and mouth elements, but it had a shortened skull roof and mobile neck to catch prey, an ear that could hear in both land and water, and a wrist joint that is like those seen in land animals.
Last year, scientists announced the discovery of Gerobatrachus hottorni, aka the frogamander. Technically, it's a toothed amphibian, but it shows the common origins of frogs and salamanders, scientists say, with a wide skull and large ear drum (like frogs) and two fused ankle bones as seen in salamanders.
A creature on the way to becoming a turtle, Odontochelys semistestacea, swam around in China's coastal waters 200 million years ago. It had a belly shell but its back was basically bare of armor. Odontochelys had an elongated, pointed snout. Most modern turtles have short snouts. In addition, the roof of its mouth, along with the upper and lower jaws, was equipped with teeth, which the researchers said is a primitive feature for turtles whose mugs are now tipped with beaks but contain no teeth.
Speaking of fossils, we haven't yet seen findings of any human-like fossils with an incredible stature or height. According to Muslim hadiths, Adam was 30 cubits (apr. 50 feet) tall, after which mankind had been decreasing in stature. If the prophetic time line - Adam to Muhammad - is correct then Adam was created some 4 or 5 thousand years ago, whereas the earliest and most human like fossil discovered is dated to be about 160,000 years old.
Peace Zafran,
Is there not a timeline of prophets in Islam? The genealogy and ancestry of prophets must surely be recognized in the religion; Ibn Kathir's Stories of the Prophets acknowledges the Biblical prophets from the era of Adam up to the coming of Christ.
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Greetings.
We don't know how far back Adam was created, furthermore, do you reckon that everything that is buried is fossilized?
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Dear Gator, you keep quoting scientific articles, I sometimes wonder if you bother read them at all, given your former posts.
What is the bottom line of what you have just posted?
There are such sciences as physiology, biochemistry, and molecular biology especially.
Until you can demonstrate what you quote by the same scientific means you enforce it will remain what it is, names to species gone extinct, You can't establish the manner of their transition by the proposed methods of science.
It isn't difficult for God to 'transition' a specie into another as evidenced in the Quran
عَلَى أَن نُّبَدِّلَ أَمْثَالَكُمْ وَنُنشِئَكُمْ فِي مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {61}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 56:61] That We may transfigure you and make you what ye know not.[/SIZE]You see, the problem is never really from a religious perspective, though I know the majority of atheists use 'evolution' as to contradict creation, and God somehow. My problem has always been substituting one belief system for another. I have no problems with evolution of proven not theorized, to me it is all the handiwork of God. But how do atheists account for everything in existence, whether or not evolution is the means to account for over a billion species and counting? And how does the time factor figure into all of this? From earth's 'being' until now, we should be morphing at a rate of five per hour?
What is the end result of evolution? Why are we still dying?
cheers
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Here's something I found interesting...
Prints Are Evidence of Modern Foot in Prehumans
Published: February 26, 2009
Footprints uncovered in Kenya show that as early as 1.5 million years ago an ancestral species, almost certainly Homo erectus, had already evolved the feet and walking gait of modern humans.
An international team of scientists, in a report Friday in the journal Science, said the well-defined prints in an eroding bluff east of Lake Turkana “provided the oldest evidence of an essentially modern humanlike foot anatomy” and added to the picture of Homo erectus as the prehumans who took long evolutionary strides — figuratively and, now it seems, also literally.
Linkity link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/science/27foot.html?hp
Thanks.
Prints Are Evidence of Modern Foot in Prehumans
Published: February 26, 2009
Footprints uncovered in Kenya show that as early as 1.5 million years ago an ancestral species, almost certainly Homo erectus, had already evolved the feet and walking gait of modern humans.
An international team of scientists, in a report Friday in the journal Science, said the well-defined prints in an eroding bluff east of Lake Turkana “provided the oldest evidence of an essentially modern humanlike foot anatomy” and added to the picture of Homo erectus as the prehumans who took long evolutionary strides — figuratively and, now it seems, also literally.
Linkity link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/science/27foot.html?hp
Thanks.
Account disabling still not working?
What I reckon is that among the thousands of fossils, not one, not a single chunk, was shown super sized. Did you deduce that all remnants dating back thousands, hundreds of thousands and millions of years are all irrelevant because the true and gigantic human fossils are supernaturally hidden from biologists?
Adam, if he existed, is more likely to have been created not too long ago if many of the early commentaries on prophets are taken into account. If a Muslim can believe that Adam was 100 feet tall notwithstanding the lack of evidence, he can equally believe that humans emerged a few thousand years in the past, because I simply see no difference between the two absurdities.
Hamayun
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