Following a religion without believing in God

[glo]

as it were, humans will differ on what's just and what's not, but we cannot comprehend the creator. thus when speaking about him, we can't truly describe him or the actions he takes/might take except through our own paradigms & experiences.
what is just and not just are for him to decide, there is no such thing as justice to begin with, unless you mean the symmetry principle, which doesn't get applied all the time either.

Interesting post, alcurad. I much agree.

Do you ever come across things in the Qu'ran/Hadiths or other Islamic writing/teaching, which you (from your human perspective) perceive to be unfair or unjust?

Salaam

 

[Pygoscelis]

I really do have trouble with this, at least one way round. If someone were to live the perfect moral, selfless life, dedicated to helping others I find the idea that they would fail pass muster to get into Heaven just because they didn't have 'correct belief' utterly ludicrous.

I encounter this mindset frequently in Christians too. It is the one thing I dislike most about religion. The placement of obedience to power (or perceived power) over morality.

 

[Q8sobieski]

Really, I see no problem with Atheist Christians or whatever. I myself often self-identify as an Agnostic-Catholic. I see no problem. I refuse to believe in an angry and vengeful deity who gets more angry if I don't believe in Him. I do, however, like Christian morality, ethics, and rituals. That's good enough for me. If there is a higher power, I can't imagine Him being concerned with my private thoughts. That just strikes me as rather petty.

 

[glo]

Really, I see no problem with Atheist Christians or whatever. I myself often self-identify as an Agnostic-Catholic. I see no problem. I refuse to believe in an angry and vengeful deity who gets more angry if I don't believe in Him. I do, however, like Christian morality, ethics, and rituals. That's good enough for me. If there is a higher power, I can't imagine Him being concerned with my private thoughts. That just strikes me as rather petty.

Thanks for sharing. And here I thought you were a Jedi?!

 

[^[AnKaBooT]^]

actually there is this thing called iman mufassal.
u have to believe(and practice wat Allah subhanawata'ala taught u!) them from the core of your heart order to be called believer.

ESSENTIALS OF IMAN ( IMAN MUFASSAL)

There are seven (7) essentials to basic Islamic faith not believing in one of these essentials a person remained outside the fold of Islam

( IMAN MUFASSAL)

"I believe in Allah, in His Angels, His Scriptures, His Prophets, the Day of Judgement, and in the fact that every thing good or bad (in the world) is pre-destined by Allah the Exalted, and in the resurrection after death."

In summary the Muslims believe in Allah, in His Angels, Holy Scriptures (Quran, true bible and Torah etc.), the Prophets, believe in the life after death, including interrogation in the grave, punishment in the grave, Distraction of this Universe one day (doom day) resurrection, the Day of Judgement, rendering account of ones deeds, and passing over the Siraat Bridge, believe in the existence of Paradise, and the believers will live in it for ever, believe in the existence of Hell, with its severest punishments, and that it will last for ever. All the seven things stated in Iman Mufassal are quite evident from the sacred text of the Holy Qur'an, as well as, from the holy words of The Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him)

 

[Q8sobieski]

Thanks for sharing. And here I thought you were a Jedi?!

Agnostic-Catholic wasn't on the list. So, I went with Jedi since I do my best to also follow the teachings of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Just like the Japanese, who often claim two religions: Shinto and Buddhism, I claim those.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Really, I see no problem with Atheist Christians or whatever. I myself often self-identify as an Agnostic-Catholic. I see no problem. I refuse to believe in an angry and vengeful deity who gets more angry if I don't believe in Him.

Though I don't believe God to be an angry and vengeful deity either, I wonder what the likelihood of your refusing to believe in God would actually cause God to cease to exist?

 

[Q8sobieski]

Though I don't believe God to be an angry and vengeful deity either, I wonder what the likelihood of your refusing to believe in God would actually cause God to cease to exist?

I believe the true nature of any deity, real or imagined, is essentially unknowable. We as humans on earth can attempt to postulate an understanding of a deity but ANY deity needs to be a deity for the entire universe, not just the 3rd planet from the sun. As such, I refuse to imbue a deity with human attributes like wrath, anger, jealousy, vengefulness, or a desire to torture people who don't believe in Him. These are human qualities. Furthermore, the qualities the people usually imbue their deities with are those that are found in their own environments. Farming people imagine fertility gods and people who live in harsh and violent climates often imagine warrior gods. Inevitably, I believe that any conception of god will be heavily influenced by the environment of the people attempting to explain god(s).

 

[Grace Seeker]

I believe the true nature of any deity, real or imagined, is essentially unknowable. We as humans on earth can attempt to postulate an understanding of a deity but ANY deity needs to be a deity for the entire universe, not just the 3rd planet from the sun. As such, I refuse to imbue a deity with human attributes like wrath, anger, jealousy, vengefulness, or a desire to torture people who don't believe in Him. These are human qualities. Furthermore, the qualities the people usually imbue their deities with are those that are found in their own environments. Farming people imagine fertility gods and people who live in harsh and violent climates often imagine warrior gods. Inevitably, I believe that any conception of god will be heavily influenced by the environment of the people attempting to explain god(s).

No doubt. We can see how this is true on our own planet without having to venture to other solar systems where expected differences would be even greater.

On the other hand, if one postulates the actual existence of a divine being outside of our own making, then that being is who he is, not who we make him out to be. And if that divine being should go so far as to bother to reveal himself to us, then to the degree that we are able to comprehend that revelation, would not those who receive it would have better knowledge of that divine being than those who reject it?

 

[Q8sobieski]

And if that divine being should go so far as to bother to reveal himself to us, then to the degree that we are able to comprehend that revelation, would not those who receive it would have better knowledge of that divine being than those who reject it?

And THAT is the big question. Lots of people all over the world at all times in history have claimed revelation. Who was right? I don't know. We have to some how decide which revelations were real or authentic, if indeed there ever actual revelations at all. Personally, I am drawn to the Christian belief that Jesus represents the physical manifestation of God, like John's statement that Jesus was "the Word made flesh." I cannot believe in a pro-active deity that makes pronouncements about the most mundane and vulgar of human behaviors, like hygiene, musical styles, and diet. Whether Jesus was God or simply the total embodiment of godliness is irrelevant to me and is little more than an issue of semantics.

 

[SixTen]

It is like eating without putting things into the mouth. Sure you can do it - but it just aint right!

 

[Q8sobieski]

It is like eating without putting things into the mouth. Sure you can do it - but it just aint right!

But WHY is it wrong?

 

[Keltoi]

Outside of faith, which is a very spiritual and personal frame of mind, judging religions is probably based on their sense of morality.

 

[Grace Seeker]

And THAT is the big question. Lots of people all over the world at all times in history have claimed revelation. Who was right? I don't know. We have to some how decide which revelations were real or authentic, if indeed there ever actual revelations at all. Personally, I am drawn to the Christian belief that Jesus represents the physical manifestation of God, like John's statement that Jesus was "the Word made flesh."

And hence your self description:
"Who was right? I don't know." = agnostic
"Personally, I am drawn to the Christian belief that Jesus represents the physical manifestion of God." = Christian

I think I get where you are coming from now.

Also, I suspect that if the belief that you say you are drawn to is true (and I have other reasons why I believe it is true), then Jesus is in a position to reveal even more of God's nature and character to me, if I will give him the chance.

 

[glo]

It is like eating without putting things into the mouth. Sure you can do it - but it just aint right!

But WHY is it wrong?

It's nice to see this thread resurrected.
A discussion about scripture in another thread got me thinking, and made me return to this one.

With regards to SixTen's comments, I wouldn't say that following scripture without believing in God (I think that's what SixTen is still referring to) is wrong, but it is incomplete and lacking.

I was raised in a Roman Catholic household and I was equipped with a reasonable knowledge of Christian teaching.
I guess most of it I found useful and much of it remained with me throughout my adolescence and into adult life.

But it wasn't really until I became a committed Christian in my mid-thirties, that all the teaching and Christian doctrine really fell into place and became alive.

I had always found expressions such as 'committing your life to God' and 'allowing God's Spirit to dwell inside you' embarrasing at best and downright crazy at worst.
After I had gone through that process of commitment myself I realised that far from just being empty words, they caused a really quite profound change in me.
God's guidance is with me always - I just need to be still and listen out for it.
God's love is with me always - I just need to not deny it.

Following scripture alone was beneficial alright, but it was only with what I perceive to be a direct relationship with God, that scripture truly became alive. And I had to actively invite that relationship by changing my attitude towards God and inviting him to be the one who is in charge in my life.

All that is - of course - only my personal opinion. No pastor, priest or clergy was consulted in it's writing!

 

[Q8sobieski]

All that is - of course - only my personal opinion. No pastor, priest or clergy was consulted in it's writing!

spoken like a true EX-catholic.

I really do like a lot of the bible, particularly the NT. I adore the Sermon on the Mount. I think Genesis is a great creation myth. But accepting these and the "godliness" of Jesus' teaching in the NT, to me, does not prove the existence of a God in the manner desribed by Jews, Muslims, or Christians. With or without one of those semitic deities, I think a person can lead a very good and honest life.

 

[Grace Seeker]

With or without one of those semitic deities, I think a person can lead a very good and honest life.

If we allow the use of the sort of subjective self-evaluation that people give for themselves, I'm convinced that there has never been a person that someone has not claimed for them to be a good and honest person. I know that of all the people I've ever buried, if I accept the testimony of their surviving family, 100% fit the category of, "If ever there was a person who deserved to be in heaven...." Personally, I think our human standards are probably lower to determine "good and honest" than that which any real diety would ever use. Fortunately that isn't the standard by which one is admitted to heaven -- at least it isn't the one we Christians understand God to use.

 

[aamirsaab]

...With or without one of those semitic deities, I think a person can lead a very good and honest life.

You are right about that - many of my friends do not subscribe to any religion yet are perfectly good and honest people (ergo, they are my friends ). But, the mistake you and a lot of athiests make about religion and semitic deities is that it is just limited to being good and living honestly, when in reality it is so much more than this. Spirituality, hope and faith are all key points of religion that are frequently overlooked by outsiders.

 

[themuffinman]

I believe the true nature of any deity, real or imagined, is essentially unknowable. We as humans on earth can attempt to postulate an understanding of a deity but ANY deity needs to be a deity for the entire universe, not just the 3rd planet from the sun. As such, I refuse to imbue a deity with human attributes like wrath, anger, jealousy, vengefulness, or a desire to torture people who don't believe in Him. These are human qualities. Furthermore, the qualities the people usually imbue their deities with are those that are found in their own environments. Farming people imagine fertility gods and people who live in harsh and violent climates often imagine warrior gods. Inevitably, I believe that any conception of god will be heavily influenced by the environment of the people attempting to explain god(s).

well god created mankind in his own image, abit different image though. he uses the feelings of humans so WE can understand what he is like. he is all hearing all seeing are humans all hearing all seeing? his mercy over comes his wrath? can we humans forgive sum1 completely and not hold even the tiniest bit of grudge in our hearts? he hears all but its not the same type of "hearing" as humans. he sees all but its a different kind of sight than humans.

 

[seeker-of-light]

i guess its good for them to at least follow morality, thats a first step anyways. if they recognize the value of morals, then maybe they can recognize the value of the one who gave them those values=)