Sharia law - do you really want it?

[Thinker]

http://www.zeenews.com/southasia/2009-03-17/515537news.html

I have formed the view that a lot of Muslims living in the west would like to be governed by sharia law. In fact I seem to recall calls from some Muslims in the UK to be allowed to govern themselves by sharia law. Watching TV this morning and saw a report of the edict issued by the SAWT valley Taliban to judges and lawyers ordering them not to attend court telling them there is no place for them in sharia law (see above link) and I wondered how it would work in a non-tribal society. I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society? It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge. Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam. Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law. I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.

 

[aamirsaab]

[snip]...
I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society?

Sharia could indeed work in the 21st century. In fact, if you've been awake this year, you'll probably have noticed several things that a sharia law system would help to eradicate, namely the credit crunch, abortion rates, divorce rates and alcohol related violence.

It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge.

Nope. Local imaam does not equate to judge in sharia. There's a process involved - a lengthy one!

Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam.

Nope.

Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law.

Nope.

I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime.

It's not nebulous, unstructured or unjust in any way shape or form.

I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system.

Females are not denied any freedoms in sharia...

If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.

Noone would. But, you have misconceptions about Sharia - you like most critics assume sharia law to be a form of extreme dictatorship were men are kings and women are slaves. That is all wrong, I'm telling you right now.

If you'd like to actually know what sharia teaches, by all means ask. This thread is fine for doing so but we do have many other threads on the matter (use search function please).

 

[Whatsthepoint]

namely the credit crunch

Do tell!

Females are not denied any freedoms in sharia...

Yes they are, but you'll probably say they don't need those or are not suited to have them.

 

[Strzelecki]

Yes they are, but you'll probably say they don't need those or are not suited to have them.

If you're so confident that they are why have you failed to outline for the forum what they are?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

If you're so confident that they are why have you failed to outline for the forum what they are?

I have outlind them before and Aamirsaab knows them and I have an idea of what he will reply, so I'm not sure why I even replied in the first place.

 

[Strzelecki]

I have outlind them before and Aamirsaab knows them and I have an idea of what he will reply, so I'm not sure why I even replied in the first place.

Why not outline them again?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Why not outline them again?

Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man, tehy inherit less, can't be heads of states, they can't marry 4 men, they don't get virgins in heaven, if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them, there's a dispute as to whethr they're allowed to vote etc.

 

[alcurad]

depends on what you call Shari'a, unfortunately many take the tribal customs and so on to be Shari'a.
women are equal to men as witnesses, at the time of the prophet women didn't own and operate businesses that much, nowadays it's different. as for the other cases you've mentioned, you were either truly unaware, or making a silly attempt at humor-marrying 4 men etc-so I'll not address them.
making up rules and laws is left to us except in a few instances, Shari'a in the literal sense is not a complete system of government, rather a few commandments that are applied in specific cases but no more.
however taken broadly, it's an holistic system that calls for justice and mercy, and the betterment of all, albeit the details of how to reach such a state are left to us.
notice that what people take to be Shari'a in the matter of punishments is not actually based on Islam, whipping eighty lashes or forty for being drunk for example is not part of any legislation by the qur'an or the prophet.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

depends on what you call Shari'a, unfortunately many take the tribal customs and so on to be Shari'a.
women are equal to men as witnesses, at the time of the prophet women didn't own and operate businesses that much, nowadays it's different. as for the other cases you've mentioned, you were either truly unaware, or making a silly attempt at humor-marrying 4 men etc-so I'll not address them.

No they're not, 4 male witnesses equals 8 female witnesses. Perhaps they're equal in some cases.
Well, it's true women have less rights than men and it's also true, as I said ebfore, that Muslims will contest that they don't need them, are created differently or something in these lines.
Which brings me to the main problem I have with Islam and women's rights. Islam assumes some sort of gender roles and bases its entire legislation on them rather then letting everyone decide for themsleves.

 

[Thinker]

Noone would. But, you have misconceptions about Sharia - you like most critics assume sharia law to be a form of extreme dictatorship were men are kings and women are slaves. That is all wrong, I'm telling you right now.

I hear what you say but I see what I see and I see the Taliban operating 'sharia' law and under that banner I see them stopping girls from attending (normal) school and making them wear the burka and many other unacceptable things.

 

[aamirsaab]

Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man,

Only in certain business related affairs.

tehy inherit less,

Don't matter; a third of the will can be given to anyone. Secondly, men are considered head of the house thus have to provide for the family. Example: a will leaves the son in charge of £100 and the daughter only £50. But, it is the DUTY of the boy to support the rest of the family - the daughter has no such responsibility. Therefore, the daughter keeps the 50 quid and can do as she pleases, the son HAS to spend that £100 on the family.

can't be heads of states,

Yes they can

they can't marry 4 men,

This has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with doing what is neccessary when the time fits. That's what most folk don;'t understand about this concept. Even men marrying 4 wives isn't an obligation to begin with - it depends on what is neccessary for the time (i.e the population spread of men and women, the economical conditions and so on and so forth - it really is a topic in and of itself)

they don't get virgins in heaven,

1st off that is in heaven not in a sharia state
2nd I believe women are indeed rewarded with virgins in heaven (hoor's are not just female)

if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them,

Again, nothing to do with a sharia state. Plus, that's only true if they MARRY them.

there's a dispute as to whethr they're allowed to vote etc.

Nope - they have full voting rights.

I hear what you say but I see what I see and I see the Taliban operating 'sharia' law and under that banner I see them stopping girls from attending (normal) school and making them wear the burka and many other unacceptable things.

The taliban are not the prime example of sharia. It's a rather extreme form of sharia - at least in terms of implementation.

 

[Amadeus85]

In muslim countries, muslims should have the law that they really want. No one should disturb them, even if its most strickt religious law. MY resist arises only when they want to bring it to Europe.

 

[Malaikah]

I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system.

I can't believe there are people who have the audacity to say such offensive, misinformed rubbish on a Muslim forum in the 21st century!

Oh, wait...

 

[Thinker]

I can't believe there are people who have the audacity to say such offensive, misinformed rubbish on a Muslim forum in the 21st century! oh, wait...

Hmmm :?. . . . what did I say that you found 'offensive'?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Do tell!

Yes they are, but you'll probably say they don't need those or are not suited to have them.

And what restrictions are these? The restriction from traveling alone so they may be safe from a man who intends harm to them? or is it men who complain about sexual abuse?

Is that she must veil herself and conceal her beauty so she may not be bothered by men who have a deseased heart?

Or is it that the husband has higher rights over his wife? I'm sure no man will ever feel appriceated if he has a rebelious wife.

No they're not, 4 male witnesses equals 8 female witnesses. Perhaps they're equal in some cases.
Well, it's true women have less rights than men and it's also true, as I said ebfore, that Muslims will contest that they don't need them, are created differently or something in these lines.
Which brings me to the main problem I have with Islam and women's rights. Islam assumes some sort of gender roles and bases its entire legislation on them rather then letting everyone decide for themsleves.

What you fail to understand is that islam isn't based on equality, it's based on justice. And yes Islam does have gender roles.

Can you give birth? Can you breast feed your child? Or do you have enough patience, care and compasion as that of a mother to raise your children?

Or do woman have the natural physical strength to work hard labour and earn a living in such a manner everyday?

Men and women are naturally different so they have different inherent qualities and will naturally play different roles, there are certain things a man can do that a woman cannot do and vise versa. We are equal in gods eyes but we are not the same.

Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man, tehy inherit less,

Ok, lets talk about inheritance. But before I do, remember the key word...Justice! As for the witness being more then that of the man, i'll get back to that shortly.

Say that a man has just died and he had 10 million pounds (or dollars if you're in America) in his will and the only recipients of this inheritance is 1 man and 1 woman. The man gets 6 million and the woman gets 4 million. Once they have obtained the inheretance they go their own seperate ways.

The man, as time goes on, gets older and wants to get married. As he gets married he has to pay the woman her dowry, and once he is married he has to pay all the household expences such as rent, bills, tax etc and Islamically he is obliged to shelter, feed and clothe his wife.

Some time goes by and he has children, so now he has to get a bigger house, a bigger car and spend more money on expences for his wife and kids while they are not obliged to spend a penny on their father.

While on the other hand, the woman who inherited 4 million pounds or dollars decides not to spend a penny of of her inhereted money. She later decides to get married, so now she receives a dowry from her husband. Then as a wife, it is her husband who is obliged to clothe her, feeds her and shelter her and she isn't obliged to spend a penny on him because the Islamic obligation to spend is on the husband even after they have children. Now as time goes on the wife gets bored of staying home so she decides to work. Islamically all the money that the wife earns is her own money and the husband does not have any right to take it from her unless she gives of her own will.

So over the years the man spends the money on bills and on a basic living and the wife sits back and relaxes so the money of the man goes lower and lower as the years go on, whereas the woman gets money from the dowry, money from her husband to spend on what she wants, she gets fed, sheltered and clothed and then when she works the husband isn't allowed any of it so her money goes higher and higher.

The man has more legal expences that he must spend the money on so he is more in need of a bigger share of inheretance whereas a woman isn't because the men are Islamically obliged to spend on them before or after marriage.

This is the Islamic justice!

they can't marry 4 men

Honestly, would you allow your wife to marry 3 more husbands? Will you be able to tell which one her 4 husbands have made her pregnant? Can you stand the thought of knowning another man is spending the night with her?

A man can have four wives because it isn't a woman who usually desire more then one partner. But bare in mind that it isn't an obligation to have 4 wives, it isn't even an obligation to have one wife. To have one wife is recommended and to have more then that, up to four, is just a permissibility!

Excuse my language, but even in the non-muslim society a woman who sleeps with more then one man is known as a w*ore so what would be the case for a woman who marries more then one man??

they don't get virgins in heaven

Everyone in heaven will be chaste.

if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them

That's with their permission, if they refuse then the man cannot force her. Again, it goes back to my point that what man in the world is going to allow his wife to sleep with another male? Please, use some common sense!

 

[YusufNoor]

Hmmm :?. . . . what did I say that you found 'offensive'?

you're joking...right?

:?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Thinker, I'll tell you the same thing I tell all non-muslims.

Stop asking non-muslims what Islam is and what Muslims are how they feel, ask a Muslim about Islam and go to Islamic sources and then make a judgement!

And I think you'll find that most of the coverts to Islam are female, that at the very least should tell you that you are misinformed about the Islamic teachings.

 

[Thinker]

you're joking...right?

:?

No, absolutely not - I honestly can't see where anyone could take offence at what I have said in this thread!!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

And what restrictions are these? The restriction from traveling alone so they may be safe from a man who intends harm to them? or is it men who complain about sexual abuse?
Is that she must veil herself and conceal her beauty so she may not be bothered by men who have a deseased heart?
Or is it that the husband has higher rights over his wife? I'm sure no man will ever feel appriceated if he has a rebelious wife.
Yes, all of the above. And most of all I am bothered by the quranic notion that all women are the same, that none is able to defend herself, that each one is bothered by men with a diseased heart and of course that man's marital wishes about the rebeliosity of his wife(s) come before their rights.
What you fail to understand is that islam isn't based on equality, it's based on justice. And yes Islam does have gender roles.
Can you give birth? Can you breast feed your child? Or do you have enough patience, care and compasion as that of a mother to raise your children?
Or do woman have the natural physical strength to work hard labour and earn a living in such a manner everyday?
Men and women are naturally different so they have different inherent qualities and will naturally play different roles, there are certain things a man can do that a woman cannot do and vise versa. We are equal in gods eyes but we are not the same.
Ok, lets talk about inheritance. But before I do, remember the key word...Justice! As for the witness being more then that of the man, i'll get back to that shortly.
Say that a man has just died and he had 10 million pounds (or dollars if you're in America) in his will and the only recipients of this inheritance is 1 man and 1 woman. The man gets 6 million and the woman gets 4 million. Once they have obtained the inheretance they go their own seperate ways.
The man, as time goes on, gets older and wants to get married. As he gets married he has to pay the woman her dowry, and once he is married he has to pay all the household expences such as rent, bills, tax etc and Islamically he is obliged to shelter, feed and clothe his wife.
Some time goes by and he has children, so now he has to get a bigger house, a bigger car and spend more money on expences for his wife and kids while they are not obliged to spend a penny on their father.
While on the other hand, the woman who inherited 4 million pounds or dollars decides not to spend a penny of of her inhereted money. She later decides to get married, so now she receives a dowry from her husband. Then as a wife, it is her husband who is obliged to clothe her, feeds her and shelter her and she isn't obliged to spend a penny on him because the Islamic obligation to spend is on the husband even after they have children. Now as time goes on the wife gets bored of staying home so she decides to work. Islamically all the money that the wife earns is her own money and the husband does not have any right to take it from her unless she gives of her own will.
So over the years the man spends the money on bills and on a basic living and the wife sits back and relaxes so the money of the man goes lower and lower as the years go on, whereas the woman gets money from the dowry, money from her husband to spend on what she wants, she gets fed, sheltered and clothed and then when she works the husband isn't allowed any of it so her money goes higher and higher.
The man has more legal expences that he must spend the money on so he is more in need of a bigger share of inheretance whereas a woman isn't because the men are Islamically obliged to spend on them before or after marriage.
This is the Islamic justice!
There are biological differences but that doesn't mean a man is an inherently better caretaker or that women are better at parenting and worse at keeping bills and finances.
Quran in my opinion underestimats women and is overly protective, making husbands take care of all importan things, which btw I find discriminatory against my own gender!
So I don't find the Islamic system particulary just.
Honestly, would you allow your wife to marry 3 more husbands? Will you be able to tell which one her 4 husbands have made her pregnant? Can you stand the thought of knowning another man is spending the night with her?
A man can have four wives because it isn't a woman who usually desire more then one partner. But bare in mind that it isn't an obligation to have 4 wives, it isn't even an obligation to have one wife. To have one wife is recommended and to have more then that, up to four, is just a permissibility!
Excuse my language, but even in the non-muslim society a woman who sleeps with more then one man is known as a w*ore so what would be the case for a woman who marries more then one man??
Tell me, why does it only matter what men want in their wives? What about women? You think women are ok with their men having multiple wives? You seem to think no man is and most women are. Now, I am told a wife can divorce her husband if she doesn't want him to marry another though I'm not sure about that, so why not make the same option for women? If the husban were incomplicit with her wife's wishes, he could simply leave. Of course, provided both spouses get an equal share of the inheritence.
The last part really made em thinking. We apparently live in a chavinistc society where a woman sleeping with several men is called a wohre and there's not a single really pejorative word for a man sleeping with several women.

Everyone in heaven will be chaste.
so what are the virgins all about?
That's with their permission, if they refuse then the man cannot force her. Again, it goes back to my point that what man in the world is going to allow his wife to sleep with another male? Please, use some common sense!

It goes abck to the point that it's not only about men.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Only in certain business related affairs.

Why?
What about adultery?

Yes they can

Really?

2nd I believe women are indeed rewarded with virgins in heaven (hoor's are not just female)

Could you show me a verse, hadith..?

Nope - they have full voting rights.

again, could you show me a verse, hadith.