Sharia law - do you really want it?

[Whatsthepoint]

And as I said many many posts ago, it is entirely up to the Judge at the end of the day. Judge has a lot of power in Islamic court room. They literally have the fate of someone's life in their hands - their power (in court room) is on par with that.

Wyh is the rule even mentioned if it's up to the judge? Are women more likely to forget things in general?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Can a man divorce his wife for no given reason?

No he cannot, because family life is of the most important aspect of a Muslims life so one is not allowed to divorce for no reason. Why would you go through the hassle of marriage just to divorce in the near future?

I suppose you can say that it's the same as one quitting work for no reasons, why would you do it?

Rather what's encouraged is to remain married. A Hadeeth states that the most detestible thing to Allah which He has made permissible is divorce.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Business transactions are 'frontal cortex based' not 'hippocampus' based.. thus I am not sure what is difficult to understand? is that you have no abstract thinking?

all the best

You haven't told me why a business tstimonay is hippocampus absed and an adultery (or any other for that matter) testimony is not.
And I would like to know why "ulterior motives" can affect a business testimony and not any other testimony.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

You haven't told me why a business tstimonay is hippocampus absed and an adultery (or any other for that matter) testimony is not.
And I would like to know why "ulterior motives" can affect a business testimony and not any other testimony.

If you mean why is the testomany of an adulturer rejected, then I ask you: Is the trustworthy and honest the same as the one who is a untrustworthy and dishonest?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

He can denounce talaaq (call for divorce) for no reason but it won't fly in a court room. So, no. He cannot divorce his wife for 'no reason'.

If I understood thinker correctly, a woman can denounce the tallaaq without the persmission of her husband, which Abd-al-Latif then explained in detail. why is it then that a wife can go directly to court, the same as a man?

 

[جوري]

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact.

You mistake equality for sameness, and that is unfortunate for you-- for it shows so little for the many years you have lived an acquisition of so little wisdom.

You should for starters direct this unequal to men to the Olympics for instance of why women and men don't compete against each other but each in their respective fields?..

I don't think you ask difficult questions at all, I think your questions are nothing short of condescending, in which any reply given you is unsatisfactory if it doesn't cater exactly to your style thinking and in the process you don't care who you insult further go on to dictate to us (Muslim women) what we should feel about our religion or our brothers, husbands and fathers...

I wonder if you advocate as strongly for the termination of the porn industry in your civilized west, before asking our sisters to go naked?

all the best

 

[Whatsthepoint]

If you mean why is the testomany of an adulturer rejected, then I ask you: Is the trustworthy and honest the same as the one who is a untrustworthy and dishonest?

What?
1. Aamirsab said two women in lieu of one man are only required in business transactions. Skye argumened it that women have ulterior motives and a more active hippocampus as opposed to rontal cortex, so I posed the question above.

 

[جوري]

What I don't understand is that it explicitly states that an aid to memory is the reason an extra woman is required.
They are there in the capacity of witnesses to an event, not accountants, their memory is all that is required.

There is alot of things you don't understand, I believe you can be aided through proper schooling not a public blog.. what do you think?

 

[aamirsaab]

Wyh is the rule even mentioned if it's up to the judge? Are women more likely to forget things in general?

Rule of thumb (like cutting off hands, stoning punishment etc). For your other bit, I don't know. Maybe.

If I understood thinker correctly, a woman can denounce the tallaaq without the persmission of her husband, which Abd-al-Latif then explained in detail. why is it then that a wife can go directly to court, the same as a man?

Because, like all law related matters, it has to be settled in a court room. With a judge. Regardless of your gender, you still have to get the matter settled in a court.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I'm gonna make a seperate thread, just for Thinker and Whatsthepoint which will elobrate the detials of divorce procedures in Islam for both then men and the women and I'll paste the link on this thread.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Rule of thumb (like cutting off hands, stoning punishment etc). For your other bit, I don't know. Maybe.


Because, like all law related matters, it has to be settled in a court room. With a judge. Regardless of your gender, you still have to get the matter settled in a court.

It's the rule of thumb, they gotta be.
I mistyped there, what I meant was "she cannot denounce it" without her husband's permission. Dos that mean she must go to court an is basically in the same position as her husband, or does she require permission to go to court in the first place?

 

[Muezzin]

You gave me negative reps accusing me of taking the p***.

Why is it whenever anyone questions some aspect of Islam which is difficult to explain that Muslims get angry and defensive?

Come, now. All through this thread, Muslims have been explaining aspects of Islam that are difficult to explain. You, however, seem to simply ignore any explanation that does not fit your agenda.

It's not some non-Muslim vs Muslim thing. Whatsthepoint, Amadeus85 and Azy have both been getting on pretty well in this thread, mostly because they have the courtesy to at least acknowledge others' input, rather than cherry-picking quotations and constructing fields full of strawmen.

It would greatly aid discussion were you to do the same.

 

[Azy]

There is alot of things you don't understand, I believe you can be aided through proper schooling not a public blog.. what do you think?

I think you've nicely avoided addressing the point. Why do you insist on saying that the memory of the female is not the primary consideration for having an extra witness when the surah in question states that it is?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Please also give me some time to gather my resources because there are a lack of resources online which means I have to type up what I have from my books.

 

[aamirsaab]

It's the rule of thumb, they gotta be.
I mistyped there, what I meant was "she cannot denounce it" without her husband's permission.

In Abd-al Latif's example, the wifey was asking the Prophet's permission - not her husbands. So she can denounce it without permission just as the hubby can.

Dos that mean she must go to court an is basically in the same position as her husband, or does she require permission to go to court in the first place?

Again, she can indeed go to court without permission (I don't even know why we are using the word permission in relation to a divorce: if stuff is that bad in your relationship, gtfo man!).

[quote='Abd-al Latif]
I'm gonna make a seperate thread, just for Thinker and Whatsthepoint which will elobrate the detials of divorce procedures in Islam for both then men and the women and I'll paste the link on this thread.[/quote]
Make it so, number 1.

 

[جوري]

I think you've nicely avoided addressing the point. Why do you insist on saying that the memory of the female is not the primary consideration for having an extra witness when the surah in question states that it is?

stored emotive memories of the hippocampus are different from the executive decision making memories of the frontal lobe.. as with everything else I will not reduce a compendium on neurology to reply to you for two reasons
1- I don't believe you carry scientific integrity
2- once we are done you'll end up googling third party info to make a case for yourself.. I am too jet lagged and even if not have a general lack of interest in breaking things down to you..

I wonder if your time might be better spent reflecting on the 'trial by ordeal' of subjecting the accused person to dangerous or painful tests believed to be under divine control as was in the west, or even modern day street rats sitting on jury who know nothing of the law deciding people's fate or why castrato was performed on pubertal boys to enable them to have soprano voices for the opera before dwelling on minuscule details of Islamic Jurisprudence!

all the best

 

[YusufNoor]

You gave me negative reps accusing me of taking the p***.

Why is it whenever anyone questions some aspect of Islam which is difficult to explain that Muslims get angry and defensive?

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact. You might not like being asked to explain why but don’t accuse the questioner of taking the p***.

In trying to understand what life would be like living under sharia law we (in the west) have few examples; they are the Taliban controlled areas and countries like Somalia. Again, you might not like the way they portray life under sharia but they don’t care what you think because they are 100% sure they have got it right. Now, because I quote them as examples of sharia and you find it uncomfortable you accuse me of taking the p*** and give me negative reps – that’s immature - and I’m being polite!

it's like no-one read my other post...imsad

You can dress it up and dance around it all you like but it is a fact that women are not equal to men in Islam and that’s fact.

we are EQUAL, we are just not the SAME! we have different roles that are addressed by our Religion.

i remember when my wife and i were going to get married. she used to work for her brother so she could send money to Africa. she stated IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that i must allow her to continue to work after we got married. i said OK.

3 days before we got married she said that she IS DONE working! that's her right! my "right"[well one of them] is to support her. EVERYDAY [well 99% of them] that i leave for work she is already back in bed sleeping! in fact, i make my own breakfast [cuz i can do it it under 8 minutes! ]

you are looking at everything with KAFR eyes! Islam is a way for Society to function. everyone has their role. Women have their roles and men have theirs! it's really simple.

as a KAFR, you seem to forget, that we are going to be held responsible for all of our actions and we are going to have to answer for them [in a MUCH HIGHER court than we have here!]

we don't go around seeking out which laws we must obey, we seek DEFINITIVE guidance on what is expected of us. EVEN if something SEEMS unfair, it is usually our lack of knowledge that makes it appear so.

oops, prayer time.

 

[crayon]

I don't think you ask difficult questions at all, I think your questions are nothing short of condescending, in which any reply given you is unsatisfactory if it doesn't cater exactly to your style thinking and in the process you don't care who you insult further go on to dictate to us (Muslim women) what we should feel about our religion or our brothers, husbands and fathers...

Exactly.

And that is the reason not many females are participating in this thread. It's not that we "are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?" (ahahahaha); we just simply can't be bothered.

 

[syilla]

^^^yup correct. as if while we're infront of the computer our hubby or father is beating us.

:blind:

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

My god Thinker, it sounds as if you have a daughter/wife whose converted to Islam and can’t handle it or something! talk about being paranoid and insecure!!!
Thinker, when you stop your anti Islam crap, and are genuinely willingly to ask about Islam- as opposed to just attacking- then maybe your points would actually be valid so give me even one reason as to why your points should even be taken into consideration....unless and until then, your actually only making yourself look bad and Islam look even better than it does already :shade:

I hear what you say but I see what I see and I see the Taliban operating 'sharia' law and under that banner I see them stopping girls from attending (normal) school and making them wear the burka and many other unacceptable things.

Why don’t you go look at the rubbish rampant in your disgusting society and rectify it, before you question what happens in a Muslim one. Youmake it sound as if the west is utopia.

I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime.

looooool your pathetic attempts at undermining the Shar’ah are just that...pathetic!
what trash! You sit here insulting Islam and turn around and apparently want the best for Muslim women. Oh Please get me something i can sink my teeth into!!!
im educated and living in the 21 century (and in the west too-born and raised to be precise) and would LOVE to have such laws implemented, if you want my whole hearted opinion!

I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system.

freedoms?! oh you mean dressing like a s**t and flaunting myself in front of men to apparently gain “love and respect” and supposedly have my confidence boosted (cos apparently some of you anti Islamic airheads are under the ridiculous impression that hijaabis aren’t confident)... or maybe the freedom of leaving my new born kid in a child care and have someone else raise it whilst i work as hard as a donkey and my husband (whose meant to be my financial provider) sits on his back side at the pub not fulfilling his responsibilities as a husband and father. Ahh ya gotta love “freedom” eh!

There are many ‘Muslim’ countries yet there are few Muslim countries that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, there’s got to be a reason for that?

Don’t worry, relax! Its not because they think like you that Islam is out of date! Thats just your twisted reasoning of it!

I can think of only two countries/provinces, possibly three that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, Iran, Saudi (not sure) and the Taliban areas. And, from what I can see, these three countries operate their own (and different) interpretation of the law.

Their interpretation? You make it sound like you’re an Shiekh that knows the quran and sunnah like the back of his hand!

Below are a few judgements from sharia courts
“In 2002, a Nigerian Sharia court sentenced Amina Lawal to be stoned to death for having a child out of wedlock; in contrast, the man named as the father denied responsibility, and as a result, the court dropped charges against him.
“In another case, teenager Bariya Magazu asserted that she was raped by three men and became pregnant as a result. Because she had sex outside of marriage, a Sharia court sentenced her to one hundred lashes, even though seven people corroborated her story. The men accused of the rape received no punishment.
“The extreme bias against women is apparent in sentences of adultery or fornication under Sharia. A woman is convicted simply by becoming pregnant, but a man is not condemned unless four people can testify that they witnessed the normally private acts of adultery or fornication.
What islam teaches, and what Muslims do, can be completely two contradictory things! What your’re trying to prove (more or less) is that the sharia should be abolished and has no place in society! Whereas here you are pointing out the mistakes of the muslims, not islam. So your point goes down the gutter real well.

And Wow! For someone who can’t stand Islam you certainly seem to be exerting all efforts into researching it!

“Countries such as Nigeria impose flogging, stoning, or severing off a hand ... all of which are deterrent punishments for serious crimes mentioned in the (Koran).”

all those you mentioned carry strict conditions for the shariah law to actually be implemented! funny how you didn’t mention that, or did your idiot sources “conveniently” leave it out.
strange you forgot to mention that the crime for rape is the same for an adulater

The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.
Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a mahr (dowry) to the woman.

After reading the punishment of rape, are you still gna whinge and whine that women in islam have no rights. And lets also keep in mound that a women can ask for what eeeever amount she wanted as her dowry. So she could ask for $1000000 from her rapist! Please tell me under which western law such punishments are implemented.

and also one of the three choices of punishment for murder is murder in return (i.e of the perpetrator)! are you still telling me this system is unjust!

So I ask again, can a female here tell me why they would prefer to live under a regime that operates the sharia law which clearly treats women badly.

Clearly? Clearly I take it meaning your own narrow minded interpretations of Islamic law, oh “sheikh” Thinker.. Have you even once looked in your own “back yard” and seen the “rifts” there

And Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system that states that Im not allowed into marriage without my consent or ask for a palace for a dowry if it so ticked my fancy! To have someone killed who stole my honour as a women, and gives my family the right to kill the one who killed me (if thats what they wanted). why wouldn’t i want to live under a law which ties down the father of my baby with responsibilities to financially provide, not run away had i had this baby out of wedlock *god forbid* (which is usually is the case in the west)
Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system which my children know their lineage and gives me the right to take my husbands wealth if he was stingy in providing for me and my children <--- just had to highlight it in case you “conveniently” missed it!

Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system which abolishes alcohol and drugs which have huge downsides to them-not only on the individual but on their families and the government as well! Why wouldn’t I want to live under a system which protects my honour and does not let any man use and abuse me with his perverted gaze!

I hope to god you’re still not whining and whinging!

There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us?

What are you doing, keeping a tally or something?!...it tells us that the male members seem to have things pretty much sorted, what’s your problem!
Funny, you don’t seem to argue with muezzin when he states this
I mean one would think that such statements from a brother would’ve actually sufficed, no?

Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?

Or maybe not many sisters frequent this section!? My god! You really and truly showing your true colours now! Thank you. The more I read your posts, the more you confirm your hatred of Islam...which is why i still can’t figure out why you think your points should be taken into consideration!!!

If there was any truth that Muslim women are frightened to speak up, then O “sheikh” Thinker explain to me why a verse in the quran was revealed concerning a woman complaining about her husband mistreatment of her! And why certain women at the time of the prophet whose fathers forced them into marriage complained to The Prophet in which he declared forced marriages invalid! Let me have some more fun and mention fatwa sites which have a section specific to women, oh and lets not forget a certain imams book compilation of fatwas pertaining specifically to Muslim women!
Now what does this indicate to you! Ahh yes!* News flash, news flash* Women in Islam aren’t frightened to speak up!!!

I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to,
do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?

Well aren’t you a hero! Mr “oh I so care for the welfare of Muslim women, yet turn around and insult their religion” you really are something! Pleeeeease get me something i can actually stomach!

And besides thats only your wife. How many other women in the west really know what they are entitled to if they divorce? Hmmm, i thought so!

After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?

Your attempts at trying to make islam look as if it contains no womens rights are not only ridiculous and futile, But also hilarious! But at the question: Im not sure, have you actually considered asking a non-muslim western woman who faces domestic violence. Im more than sure that wouldn’t go astray!

So yeah thinker, it seems that you’re over thinking.
Though i must admit i like how you hate islam so much yet you’re oh so willing to dig out and go to extent to make Islam “look bad”, sign up to an Islamic forum and air your “caring” views. it’s a real show, really. one wouldn’t blamed for thinking you had nothing better to do! Lord...get out and smell the roses already! There's more to life than proving something that isn’t wrong to be wrong. Your efforts are just going down the drain but oh well if you wish to carry on with a pointless mission, i guess that's just a proof of your own stupidity...*tuts*