Sharia law - do you really want it?

[Whatsthepoint]

NO, I don't? I said if a woman is an expert in her field then she alone is enough.. Incidents of such where one female witness is enough were listed by Ansar Al 'Adl if someone would be dexterous with the search option.
What the Quran doesn't cover in great detail is covered in sunnah... The Quran for instance tells us to perform prayers but doesn't instruct us to how and that is where we look toward the sunnah for Guidance.

As such I have stated if you are a female and an expert in your field then your witness is enough!

I'm asking why Islamic texts use women as an example of unreliable and non-expert witnesses, eventhough men can be just as unreliable and non-experta dn accoding to you, the expertise is the only thing that counts.

and you havent commented on the ahdith claiming women have a defficient mind and Latif's psot saying the same for your memory skills.

 

[جوري]

I'm asking why Islamic texts use women as an example of unreliable and non-expert witnesses, eventhough men can be just as unreliable and non-experta dn accoding to you, the expertise is the only thing that counts.

and you havent commented on the ahdith claiming women have a defficient mind and Latif's psot saying the same for your memory skills.

Let's put it this way so it seems more real to you
in the west, if I am going to be tried of a crime 'say mal-practice' I guarantee that I will not get 12 medical experts as a 'Jury of my peers'.. if I were being tried by Shari3a law, I WOULDN'T WANT WOMEN AT ALL as witness for or against me, It might sound sexist against my own kind.. but it really takes alot for a female to be purely objective and non- emotive.. the fact that it is two at all is actually sort of consoling.. unless indeed she is an expert in her field which would be akin to me being tried by '12 jury of my peers'
male and female minds work differently.. you should read

it is written by a female doctor.. after reading it, you'll see that in fact women have a bigger hippocampus than men where as men have a bigger frontal brain. I'll argue that women have a better memory than men, but men are better at executive decisions.
realizing differences isn't a 'deficiency' it is what it is just a difference that each gender can capitalize on or be a slave to depending on your point of view. I have commented previously on the hadith where you allege women are deficient in the mind ad nauseam.. you can rummage through my old replies..

all the best

 

[YusufNoor]

Ok.
Their witness is worth half the witness fo a man, tehy inherit less, can't be heads of states, they can't marry 4 men, they don't get virgins in heaven, if tehy're slaves, their masters can have sex with them, there's a dispute as to whethr they're allowed to vote etc.

let me attempt to answer this as best as i can, although i'm not sure why!

Bismiallahir Rahmanir Raheem

half a witness: stop viewing this with Kufr eyes for a minute, we are talking about Islam. in Islam men and women are different. what might appear lopsided to you may actually be equal or even lopsided the OTHER way.

and i'm basically giving you the Mufti Menk view here [including plagiarism] what i haven't heard i won't answer.

Men are created from clay [dirt] and woman are created from something living, ie, MAN. as a result of this, women have MUCH MUCH MORE MERCY in their created being while men struggle to make sense out of things. in a case where 2 women equal one mans witness, it is because of a woman's Mercy the she be given the opportunity to discuss events with the other women who are witnesses. the man has NO SUCH PRIVILEGE!

2 woman are walking into a courtrooom and they meet a sister who is crying. they move to comfort her, she wails that her only son who provides for her, her sister, her mother and a sick aunt will be executed if found guilty. alas but there is no hope for them if he is taken away. one of the women decides that she feels bad for the poor mother and starts to regret being there to testify. the other one can bring her back to reality.


they inherit less: lets use this example, Abdu and Binta are brother and sister. Binta is a widower living with mom and dad while Abdu has a wife and 3 kids. the parents are killed in a car wreck and after all other portions are taken out, $90,000 is left for them. Abdu gets $60,000 and Binta gets $30,000. outside of Sharia this might appear unfair, but let's look at the reality. Abdu, as a Muslim is required to support his wife and family, so basically his 60,000 will be spent evenly among his family averaging out to about 12,000 each. HOWEVER as Binta's only closest living male relative, he MUST provide for her! PERIOD! her $30,000 is HERS ALONE to spend as she wishes, while Abdu must now use part of his $60,000 to support Binta! in real terms, Abdu's "share" has now dropped down to $10,000 while Binta's has improved to $40,000!

EVEN if Abdu's situation improves to that where HIS WIFE has an opportunity to work [Islamically.] ANY AND ALL INCOME that she earns is HERS and HERS ALONE! Men have the responsibility to support their wives and children and any other woman who may fall under their care!


can't marry 4 men: well, it is the JOB of the men to support the family, if a women doesn't work how can she support 1 husband, let alone 2 or more. In Islam, under the Sharia, a man may only take additional wives IF he can AFFORD and under the provision that he treat them fairly! in this manner it should be no great difficulty if a wife gets pregnant.

as we have seen from the previous example, men have clear cut responsibilities [and we talking about Sharia, not how some tribes/Nations/Muslims approach the situation]. how would a woman who is pregnant support 4 husbands and any children? and imagine that being further limited by the view that breastfeeding should take place for 2 years per child. and imagine how often she would be pregnant!

and further more, we have the case that a child MUST BE given the name of his father! PERIOD! IT IS A GRIEVOUS SIN NOT TO TELL A FATHER WHO IS HIS REAL CHILD OR A CHILD WHO IS HIS REAL FATHER! would not this be a bit difficult in places where paternity tests aren't sold in the market place?


i nicked some of that from Mufti Menk's Muslim Women! Are they Oppressed?

found here:

http://www.nazirakoob.com/menk/Vol1.html#Part8

DIVORCE: one of the Sahabah was allowed to divorce her husband just because she feared form her religion. the Prophet, pbuh, merely told her to give the dowry back and that was it!

from Bukhari:

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 198:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

The sister of 'Abdullah bin Ubai narrated (the above narration, 197) with the addition that the Prophet said to Thabit's wife, "Will you return his garden?" She said, "Yes," and returned it, and (then) the Prophet ordered Thabit to divorce her. Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The wife of Thabit bin Qais came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I cannot endure to live with him." On that Allah's Apostle said, "Will you return his garden to him?" She said, "Yes."

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 199:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The wife of Thabit bin Qais bin Shammas came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I am afraid that I (being a Muslim) may become unthankful for Allah's Blessings." On that, Allah's Apostle said (to her), 'Will you return his garden to him?" She said, "Yes." So she returned his garden to him and the Prophet told him to divorce her.


i don't know about: voting, heads of state or the slave thing.

 

[Woodrow]

That was a mistake he made when he was a New Muslim, Brother Estes changed his stance after having learnt the Arabic of Quraan, now he is on the correct understanding, which is: "Push away" meaning split-up for good
READ all of his works before quoting him please!
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134273692-wife-beaten-up-failed-marriage-bid-4.html#post1038876

I think we need to remember that Bro. Yusuf made many of the same acts of enthusiasm as many of us reverts make when we first revert. I am certain he cringes every time he sees some of his early youtube videos. Like all of us reverts he went through and is still going through a period of learning.

 

[Amat Allah]

After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?

I think u don`t have the answer my respected brother but thank u for the reply it answers many things to me and gave me the only clear and categorical reason why u made this thread in the first place...^^

may Allah lead ur way to the path of the endless happiness Ameeen

thanks alot once again ^^

done on this thread All Praise be to Allah ...

 

[S_87]

Could you answer my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?

edit- did answer this question, but there are many who know exactly what they are entitled to in case of divorce
also, the male is required to support the woman until her 'iddah' period is over in which case she can then work or her male relatives are required to support her is she cant. oh and if she has kids then upkeep from the male too.

 

[Musaafirah]

You know this thread has moved from the original title of 'Sharia law - do you really want it?' to a topic about 'find me all the hadiths on how stupid women are considered to be'
Or so it would seem.
Thinker, please read through all the posts that other members have given before summing them up as utter tosh (Well, that's the impression I'm getting from your posts).
To answer the original question: Yes, I do want Shariah law. Not sure if it'll work in Britain, Aamirsaab's already highlighted the reasons why. Though, I would be willing to emigrate to a country where it is properly implemented.

 

[Azy]

Certain violent punishments?

Including but not limited to certain violent punishments, yes.

And certain critics of Islam think they're clever?

I would be inclined to agree that 95% of criticisms are ham-fisted (if you'll pardon the expression).

 

[Ar-RaYYan]

Although you may be a Muslim living in a country which is not governed by sharia law, would it be right that a good Muslim should apply the sharia law to themsleves where they can? . . . . . . . . .

From what I have read it appears that men can divorce their wives at will and without reason whereas women cannot divorce their husbands without the permission of the courts and they are unlikley to grant permission unless the husband contravenes Islamic teachings.
After a wife is divorced she can keep her dowry and the children until the are ‘weaned’ and the husband must support the child during the weaning period. After the child is weaned it would normally go to the husband.

After that the wife is not entitled to half the assets, any of her husbands salary and other earnings or pension.

If that is correct do you believe that a good Muslim women living in a country which is not governed by sharia law should volunteer (upon divorce) only to take what the sharia law entitles her to? To take it further, would she be contravening Islam by not applying sharia law to what she take upon divorce?

Why do you ask questions but can't be bothered to read the answers properly? why do you twist people's words to support your arguments?

i have read the whole thread and have come across many times where the members already informed you that a husband CANNOT divorce his wife without a reason and yet you still argue that the husband is islamically allowed. and where do you get the idea from that the court won't grant permission for the wife to divorce from her husband unless he(the husband)
contravenes Islamic teachings?
Please do not make up your own facts and figures and do not give Wikipedia as a source to support your argument!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I'll argue that women have a better memory than men,

Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.

 

[S_87]

From what I have read it appears that men can divorce their wives at will and without reason whereas women cannot divorce their husbands without the permission of the courts and they are unlikley to grant permission unless the husband contravenes Islamic teachings.

trust me if women were allowed to divorce their husbands freely then there wouldnt be many marriages lasting at all. divorce is a serious matter islamically, as a female i can assure u most women would probably 'divorce' their husbands every month if they could.

After a wife is divorced she can keep her dowry and the children until the are ‘weaned’ and the husband must support the child during the weaning period. After the child is weaned it would normally go to the husband.

wheres your source for this? and how would it 'normally' go to the father? your source? the west generally gives custody to the mother so the children would 'normally' go to the mother...is that what you prefer? fathers for justice

After that the wife is not entitled to half the assets, any of her husbands salary and other earnings or pension.

if the husbands assets belonged to him only and he works after divorce why in the world should he be obligated to support his divorced wife who can get married again? if their property was shared that a different matter, but i dont get WHY a man should have to continue to support his ex/s after they have gone their separate ways? thats STUPID

 

[Muezzin]

Were Sharia interpreted in its true, uncorrupted form in another country, I would be willing to emigrate to that country.

For it to work, the whole system has to meet the correct criteria - it must never simply be forced upon a population.

Including but not limited to certain violent punishments, yes.

Okay.

I would be inclined to agree that 95% of criticisms are ham-fisted (if you'll pardon the expression).

Lol.

 

[Danah]

There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us? Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?

REALLY?? you think so?? I am very sorry for you if you think so, Why on earth I will be afraid or shy to say something about my proud and honor?.....but brothers here are more active in this section than sisters....and one side note: I think if you meant from the beginning that you are waiting for females relies then you better put that in the title like: Sharia law - do females really want it?
I dunno its just a suggestion to direct females to this thread. I am sure many of them did NOT even know about this.

but I think it will be good to stop talking in place of the others and make assumptions on your own?
just for your knowledge, I did not reply to this thread because I don't have time to come here due to me "studies" I did not even


I am an educated MUSLIM female and I think that societies start corrupting when the Shari'ah is not applied "correctly" there.
another thing,

if Islam abuse women as many people said then you will find me doing another thing rather than studying on the university. I dont feel that Islam is stopping me to do anything I wish to as long as I think that this thing will be good for me. Actually for me being a female muslim I dont feel that Islam is blocking my ambitions but rather its encouraging me to go even higher to be an effective individuals on the society......like doing a higher degree in my major which I am planning to do in the time doing and find the encouragement from my family.

One more thing, I would you to give your opinion about this:

Hilisyan Stansiri says: "prevent mixing, restrict girls' freedom, and return to the veil age, this is better for you than the impudence and lewd of Europe and America

Beret French, said while addressing Muslim girls "do not take the European families as your example, because they are bad ideals to follow"

Famous actress Marilyn Monroe, who wrote an advice to fellow women just before her suicide, says:

"Beware of glory … bewares of those who deceive you with stardom … I am the most miserable woman on earth… I could not be a mother … I am a woman who prefers the house and the honorable family life above everything else. Honorable Family life is the true happiness of an woman, this type of life is the symbol of humanity.. I was oppressed and wronged by all…Cinema life makes a trivial cheap commodity of the woman however glory and the false fame she might have attained".

Lady Cook says: "men are accustomed to mixing which made women seek behaviors that disagree with their nature. The more the mixing the greater is the number of the illegitimate children. The consequences are clear to all. So fathers, do not get tempted by money and stop sending your daughters to work at laboratories and teach them to stay away from men. Statistical data shows that adultery becomes higher and is aggravated where the mixture between the men and the women increases.

Can't you realize that the majority of illegitimate children are to women who work in laboratories or who work as house maids where they are exposed to men's gazes? Had there been no doctors to administer abortion pills and medicines, there would have seen quadruples of these figures. It has become sordid to see men in our country refuse to marry the inexperienced girls; meaning those girls who have children from adultery so that they can benefit from them. How much this woman suffered from the bitterness of the life!!"

British writer Annie Rode says:" if our girls work in houses as servants or maids then it is better than working at laboratories where the girl becomes pollutant by tubercles that take the splendor of her life forever. I wish our country were like Muslims countries; where decency, Chastity and purity are the dress of servants and slaves while enjoying the most luxurious living and a good treatment by the house masters'. A good treatment similar to that they apply to their own children with no harm. ... Yes it is a shame on the British countries that they let their girls becomes symbols of vice by leaving them mix with men. Why are we careless in seeking what makes the girl agrees with her natural being as ordered in the divine religion while abandoning the works the conforms with men to men in a attempt to protect her safety and honor!

Egyptian newspaper 'Al Akhbar ' published in its 20/10/1972 issue the following: "This week, the annual party of Miss Year was held and a great number of ladies from all walks of life attended .The celebration speech was made in Queen Anne's presence and it centered around women Freedom and Requests ...The winner was a 17 years old girl who was unanimously selected. The girl expressed her absolute refusal to the feminine liberation movement and she said that she'd rather keep her femininity and that she does not want to wear trousers to challenge men. She wants to be a woman and her husband to be a man. Everybody applauded to her inclusive of Queen Anne. (Source: The contemporary Arab woman - to where? P. 50).

Dr. John Kishlr one of the American psychologists announced in Chicago that 90 % of the American women are frigid and that 40 % of men are barren. He further added that advertisements that depend on the pictures of the naked girls are the reason in the descent of the sexual level of the American people. (For more details refer to the American congressional committee Report about the investigation in youth crimes in America titled: "the collapsed American society manners - The naked society in documents and numbers, p. is 11)

Tell me what do you think of this article? That is some western views!
and we have a lot of other examples
sorry I dont have the source because I saved this article a while ago in my machine

 

[جوري]

Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.

No.. in everyday life witness isn't about memory.
It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!

 

[جوري]

My questions went unanswered:

List western freedoms to me that are not found under shari'a law?
Let's hear your reasons for 'denouncing' 'such a regime'?

all the best

and I am not sure I like the not so subtle implication that Muslim men are abusers and Muslim women are stupid..
Perhaps it is a reflection on the one making the statements rather than those implicated?..
I don't take too kindly to folks making underhanded remarks about my father, brothers, uncles, cousins, or my mother, aunts and sisters. Whether blood relatives or in Islam!

If you want to know why folks appear to despise westerners so, I'd actually start right here, makes even the lowly caste systems of India seem more fair!

all the best

 

[Whatsthepoint]

No.. in everyday life witness isn't about memory.
It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!

Ok, if it's only about memory, why are two female witnesses required only in certain cases (business) and not all? (That'sa according to aamirsaab)

 

[جوري]

Ok, if it's only about memory, why are two female witnesses required only in certain cases (business) and not all? (That'sa according to aamirsaab)

Again:

It is about high fidelity to the events and no ulterior motives!

 

[Thinker]

List western freedoms to me that are not found under shari'a law?
Let's hear your reasons for 'denouncing' 'such a regime'?

all the best

Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom . .
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.
The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.
The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.
The freedom to work outside the home.
The freedom to work with men.
The freedom to shake a mans hand.
The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Again:

Yes, but why does one women suffice in the case of adultery, whereas it takes two in business related affairs? Come to think about it, if women have ulterior motives, they're more likely to accuse a fellow woman of adultery than fake a few numbers in a business transaction.

 

[Muezzin]

I don't want to speak for Gossamer Skye.

However...

The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.

In light of one of my previous posts in this thread, this particular point is tempting a Facepalm image.