Sharia law - do you really want it?

[aadil77]

The taliban is the only example I can see of total sharia law - are you suggesting that the taliban are not operating sharia law?

Have you read any of the posts in this thread or have you just gone through it blindly making your own mind up. Just because the taliban is the only example you see don't mean we all agree with it. People here want sharia, did any one say they wanted the talibans version of it?

Your making us repeat things that have already been discussed.

Your twisting peoples views and generalising.

I think this thread should be closed, clearly Mr thinker likes making his own judgements on shariah without taking other views onboard

 

[Chuck]

Your twisting peoples views and generalising.

Perhaps that is the reason he/she is here?

 

[aadil77]

Perhaps that is the reason he/she is here?

That IS why he is here, he probably can't understand why theres so many muslims in his own country, women especially, who apparantly get married to get beaten by their husbands

 

[Muezzin]

I’m with you, recite the talaq three times and kick her out without a penny – sounds fair to me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaq_(Nikah)

In the event of a divorce, each partner leaves with what they brought to the marriage. Literally. Anything they owned, personally, at the time of the marriage, anything that was gifted to them, personally, at the time of the marriage, anything they earned, personally, at the time of the marriage, is theirs.

And the custody of any children tends to be awarded to the mother.

So it's inaccurate (and frankly unfair) to say that in the unfortunate event of a divorce you 'kick her out without a penny'. You don't. You don't take what's hers, and she doesn't take what's yours.

Also, the wife can file for divorce. It's not only the man that has that power, as you claim.

If people do not like this state of affairs, they should not rush into marriage in the first place. Or better yet, they should get a pre-nuptial agreement. Just in case.

My initial question was simple, I could not believe that anyone would want to be governed as the taliban govern the people in the areas they control. I

Funny, I thought your intial question was the title of this thread: 'Sharia law - do you really want it?' No qualifiers about the Taliban there.

But, no, I would not want some savage version that misunderstands or distorts the true spirit of Sharia law.

 

[Zafran]

salaam

so we are trying got figure out sharia through wikipedia.........

peace

 

[جوري]

. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.

List western freedoms to me that are not found under shari'a law?
Let's hear your reasons for 'denouncing' 'such a regime'?

all the best

 

[Muezzin]

I have a feeling some elements of Shari'a would be in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and as such it would not really 'mesh' well with the 21st century.

Which elements?

Certain violent punishments?

The same certain violent punishments that, per true Islamic teachings, would extremely rarely be administered due to the intentionally difficult-to-satisfy criteria to be satisfied before they can be used?

A lot of people don't really know that the spirit of Sharia, in its true form, is not to hunt people down and flog or stone or kill them - its punishments are scary as a deterrent. Actually receiving one depends on the prosecution satisfying extremely strict rules of evidence, such that in practice, very few violent punishments (such as stoning or amputation) would actually be administered.

But do people criticise it on this front? Do they say, cynically, 'Oh, people only obey the law out of fear'? No. They ignorantly and incorrectly say things to the effect of 'OMFG, in Sharia, you need four witnesses to a rape before it's prosecuted!!11one'

Rape does not require four witnesses to be prosecuted.

It's actually four witnesses for adultery. The actual, sexual act. In explicit detail.

And certain critics of Islam think they're clever?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

After many years of trying I am still trying to understand women - why do women stay with men who beat them?

The beating isn't what you think it is. The 'hitting' referred to in Quran isn't punching, nor kicking, nor slapping or even a plain ol' push. It's a tap on the wrist to show disapproval, that's all.

Read the verses before and the verses after and it'll make much more sense.

In the Quran in Chapter 4 (chapter called An-Nisa) verse 34, it says "And beat them".

Yusuf Estes clears it up in a short and simple reply.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIThZLxz9M[/media]



EDIT:

Infact, Prohet Muhammad (saaws) said that the best amongst you (muslims) are those who are best to his wives.

 

[Muezzin]

I'd just like to go on record as saying that if my future significant other is ever intentionally physically hurt by myself, I give her full permission to punch me in the face and kick me out of the house.

Actually, I wouldn't want to marry the type of woman that needs permission to do such a naturally right thing in the first place.

Men who hurt their wives have no protection under the law, Islamic or otherwise.

 

[جوري]

This is for "whatisthepoint' and was addressed here earlier by Ansar Al' Adl of the testimony of women

3. WOMEN ARE DEFICIENT AS WITNESSES

Comment: The true title of this section should be: “Limitations to a woman's testimony.”
The testimony of the woman is not equal to that of the man. Her testimony is half the testimony of the man with regard to financial matters. The Qur'an states,
"And call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witness as you approve of, that if one woman errs the other will remind her."[19]
19. The Qur'an, 2: 282.

Comment: There are plenty of cases where one woman's testimony is as good as one man's. “As regards the witness of two women being required instead of one, the shari'ah generally accepts that this is advisable in cases where women have little knowledge and no expertise of the subject. In matters where their witness would be just as valid as a man's, the witness of one women is sufficient.” (Ruqayyah Waris Maqsud) The proof that the meaning of the above verse applies only in a very narrow and technical context is that many scholars of Islam have permitted women to be judges. Further, all Sunni schools agree that a woman may be a mufti just as a man can. Based on that consensus, moreover, al-Tabari, and probably al-Shaybani, were also of the position that a woman could be a judge (qadi) for all types of cases, because a fatwa is more important (a'zam makanatan) than a judgment (qada').
​

http://www.livingislam.org/n/wmnc_e.html

 

[Whatsthepoint]

This is for "whatisthepoint' and was addressed here earlier by Ansar Al' Adl of the testimony of women

3. WOMEN ARE DEFICIENT AS WITNESSES

Comment: The true title of this section should be: “Limitations to a woman's testimony.”
The testimony of the woman is not equal to that of the man. Her testimony is half the testimony of the man with regard to financial matters. The Qur'an states,
"And call in to witness two witnesses, men; or if the two be not men, then one man and two women, such witness as you approve of, that if one woman errs the other will remind her."[19]
19. The Qur'an, 2: 282.

Comment: There are plenty of cases where one woman's testimony is as good as one man's. “As regards the witness of two women being required instead of one, the shari'ah generally accepts that this is advisable in cases where women have little knowledge and no expertise of the subject. In matters where their witness would be just as valid as a man's, the witness of one women is sufficient.” (Ruqayyah Waris Maqsud) The proof that the meaning of the above verse applies only in a very narrow and technical context is that many scholars of Islam have permitted women to be judges. Further, all Sunni schools agree that a woman may be a mufti just as a man can. Based on that consensus, moreover, al-Tabari, and probably al-Shaybani, were also of the position that a woman could be a judge (qadi) for all types of cases, because a fatwa is more important (a'zam makanatan) than a judgment (qada').
​

http://www.livingislam.org/n/wmnc_e.html

Is there a similar rule for men, that two male witnesses equal one female witness in areas where men have little or no expertise?
And what about this hadith?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
It's Bukhari.

Oh yeah, how was Egypt?

 

[doorster]

The beating isn't what you think it is. The 'hitting' referred to in Quran isn't punching, nor kicking, nor slapping or even a plain ol' push. It's a tap on the wrist to show disapproval, that's all.

Read the verses before and the verses after and it'll make much more sense.

In the Quran in Chapter 4 (chapter called An-Nisa) verse 34, it says "And beat them".

Yusuf Estes clears it up in a short and simple reply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIThZLxz9M
EDIT:

Infact, Prohet Muhammad (saaws) said that the best amongst you (muslims) are those who are best to his wives.

That was a mistake he made when he was a New Muslim, Brother Estes changed his stance after having learnt the Arabic of Quraan, now he is on the correct understanding, which is: "Push away" meaning split-up for good
READ all of his works before quoting him please!
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134273692-wife-beaten-up-failed-marriage-bid-4.html#post1038876

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Is there a similar rule for men, that two male witnesses equal one female witness in areas where men have little or no expertise?
And what about this hadith?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
It's Bukhari.

Oh yeah, how was Egypt?

Here's another one for you:

Belittling Women with the Hadeeth: “Women are Deficient in Intellect and Deen.”

Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz
​

We often hear the noble Hadeeth "Women are deficient in their intelligence and in their Deen” and some men use this Hadeeth as a form of belittlement towards the women. We desire from you O noble shaykh, clarification of the meaning of this Hadeeth?

The meaning of the Hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam):

“I have never seen anyone with a deficiency of ‘Aql (intellect) and Deen (religion) who are more overpowering to men than one of you [women].”

So it was said:

“O Messenger of Allaah, what is the deficiency in her intelligence?”

He said:

“Isn’t the witness of two women equal to that of one man?”

So it was said:

“What is the deficiency in her Deen?”

So he said:

“Isn’t it the case that if she is menstruating she doesn’t pray or fast?”

So the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified that the deficiency of her intellect was from the angle of her weak memory and that her testimony is strengthened with the testimony of another woman. This is because of the preciseness of the witness (in Islaam) and because she could forget and make an addition or deletion to the testimony. Just as Allaah says:

{And bring forth two witnesses from your own men. If there are not two men (available) then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs then the other can remind her…} [2282]

As for deficiency in her Deen, then it is because during her state of menstruation and post-partum bleeding, she abandons the Salaat and fasting, and she doesn’t make up the salaat. This is from the deficiency in her Deen. But this deficiency is not blameworthy upon her. Rather it is a deficiency, which happens as a result of that which Allaah had decreed for her and this was done in a manner of leniency and easiness towards her. For if she were to fast in a state of menstruation or in a state of postpartum bleeding it would harm her. So from the Mercy of Allaah (towards women) He has legislated for her to abandon the fast at the time when she is menstruating or in a state of Nifaas, and to make up the fast afterwards. As for the salaat, then without a doubt, the state of menstruation prevents her from purification. So from the mercy of Allaah, He legislated for her to abandon her prayer and likewise in the state of Nifaas.

He also legislated for her not to make it up, because in making up the (Salaat) is difficulty, because the Salaat is tremendous, and repetitious, five times throughout the night and day, and the days of menstruation can be plentiful, sometimes seven or eight days or more than that. And the Nifaas could reach 40 days. So from the mercy of Allaah upon her and from His Ihsaan (doing good) towards her is that He removed the Salaat from her whether it be the initial Salaat or the make-up. And this does not necessitate that her intelligence is deficient in everything! Nor that her Deen is deficient in everything! But indeed the Messenger (saw) clarified that the deficiency in her intelligence is from that which happens to her from the lack of precision in her memory and testimony, and that the deficiency in her Deen is from the fact that she leaves off the prayer and fasting at the time of her menses or in the state of Nifaas. Also this doesn’t necessitate that she is less than a man in everything! or the fact that the man is better in everything! Yes, generally the male gender is better than the gender of the females generally for many reasons. Just as Allaah the High and Sublime says:

{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend their wealth (to support them)…} [434]

But she can surpass him, sometimes, in many things. And by Allaah how many women surpass many men in their intelligence, Deen and precision! But verily that which is narrated on the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is that the women are surpassed by men, generally, in intelligence and in the religion only. There can proceed from her many righteous actions, in which, she can surpass the men and in her Taqwah of Allaah, Azza Wa Jall, and in her station in the hereafter. There could be some affairs that she places great importance on and is precise in them more so than the precision of a man. There are many issues, which she carefully considers, and is diligent in memorizing and precise in. She would become the foundation in Islaamic history and point of reference in many affairs and this is clear to those who ponder and reflect on the state of the women during the time of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and after that. With this it should be understood that this deficiency should not prevent her from being treated equally in her narrations and in her testimony, if it is strengthened with the testimony of another woman.

And it doesn’t necessarily mean that it (this deficiency) should prevent her from having Taqwah of Allaah and the fact that she could be from the most virtuous slaves of Allaah if she is upright in her Deen, even if the fasting and Salaat is not obligatory upon her at the time of menstruation and Nifaas rather this is a deficiency which is specific to the intellect and Deen just as the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified. It is not appropriate that a believer should accuse her of being deficient in everything and weak in every area of her Deen, and its clarification is pertinent and important so that the speech of the Messenger is understood in it’s proper context and in the best possible manner.



And Allaah knows best.

 

[جوري]

Is there a similar rule for men, that two male witnesses equal one female witness in areas where men have little or no expertise?
And what about this hadith?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
It's Bukhari.

Oh yeah, how was Egypt?

pls read all that I have posted not little snippets!
an analogy if I may..
You have a headache, I prescribe you an ASA.
Muezzin has a headache and I prescribe him a large dose of steroids..
you come and say, well shouldn't you prescribe an ASA for a headache?
given my knowledge in the field of science I say, I am the best judge of what this situation requires, not all headaches (no pun intended) are created equal!
same thing in the field of religion.. you as a lay man can't sit there and decide which hadith to apply to which situation!
Thus I have already covered that the testimony of ONE professional woman is equal to that of a man! you going back to point A isn't going to change what scholars agree upon or what I have written.

_______
my trip to Egypt sucked.. I did post a couple of pix under the photography thread!

all the best

 

[Whatsthepoint]

pls read all that I have posted not little snippets!
an analogy if I may..
You have a headache, I prescribe you an ASA.
Muezzin has a headache and I prescribe him a large dose of steroids..
you come and say, well shouldn't you prescribe an ASA for a headache?
given my knowledge in the field of science I say, I am the best judge of what this situation requires, not all headaches (no pun intended) are created equal!
same thing in the field of religion.. you as a lay man can't sit there and decide which hadith to apply to which situation!
Thus I have already covered that the testimony of ONE professional woman is equal to that of a man! you going back to point A isn't going to change what scholars agree upon or what I have written.

_______
my trip to Egypt sucked.. I did post a couple of pix under the photography thread!

all the best

Yes I got that. I'm asking why the Quran prescribes 2 female wintnesses in case they have little knowledge of the field and doesn't make the same rule for men, so that the other man may correct the fist one if he errs.
Well, the explanation Abd-al-Latif posted seem to suggest women have a worse memory than men, it also mentions intelligence in the end.
sorry to hear that, well I wouldnt go to Egypt this time of year myself.

 

[Shukri18]

There are many ‘Muslim’ countries yet there are few Muslim countries that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, there’s got to be a reason for that?

I can think of only two countries/provinces, possibly three that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, Iran, Saudi (not sure) and the Taliban areas. And, from what I can see, these three countries operate their own (and different) interpretation of the law.

Below are a few judgements from sharia courts

“In 2002, a Nigerian Sharia court sentenced Amina Lawal to be stoned to death for having a child out of wedlock; in contrast, the man named as the father denied responsibility, and as a result, the court dropped charges against him.

“In another case, teenager Bariya Magazu asserted that she was raped by three men and became pregnant as a result. Because she had sex outside of marriage, a Sharia court sentenced her to one hundred lashes, even though seven people corroborated her story. The men accused of the rape received no punishment.

“The extreme bias against women is apparent in sentences of adultery or fornication under Sharia. A woman is convicted simply by becoming pregnant, but a man is not condemned unless four people can testify that they witnessed the normally private acts of adultery or fornication.

“Countries such as Nigeria impose flogging, stoning, or severing off a hand ... all of which are deterrent punishments for serious crimes mentioned in the (Koran).”
There are

Tehran, Dec. 26 – Iranian press have reported the public execution of at least four women in the past year, with at least 14 more to be publicly hanged or stoned to death. http://www.iranfocus.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1088

An Iranian woman faces being stoned to death for having an affair with a married man. Mother- of- two Mokarrameh Ebrahimi has spent the last 11 years in jail for adultery with Jafa Kiani (and what happened to Jafa??) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-467588/Iranian-wife-faces-death-stoning-adultery.html

So I ask again, can a female here tell me why they would prefer to live under a regime that operates the sharia law which clearly treats women badly.

I live in America, and I would completely live under a regime that operates the sharia law. What you fail to realize that the Shari'a law does not remove nor limit womans rights, but in reality Shari'a law protects the women, as well as gives them the justice and freedom they deserve. This law protects the womens dignity, and also empowers them. Previously women were looked upon more as objects and chattels than humans. It also greatly protects the dignity of women by warning Muslims that if someone slanders a chaste believing woman, they will be dealt with severly; now what kind of educated women WOULD NOT want to live under a regime that operates the sharia law?
a law that protects them and gives them a voice.
As for your polygamy argument; Polygamy is permitted because there are more Muslim women than Men. especially in times of war. If we went by the classical model of 1:1, what of the other women? Will they never experience the joy of marriage and family? What of those women who are disabled that require care? What of the blind women? What of the widow that depended on her husband for income? What of the convert? Will she recieve guidance on her own, or is it better to allow her to marry a man that can guide her in Islam. All these are reasons why the classical model is imperfect and why Islam allows for polygamy. It is not necessary to love each wife EQUALLY. However, It is necessary to treat and provide equally for them though, buy a necklace for both wives of equal value, same with car, etc.
when a religion and law focuses so much on equality how can it be unjust?
you my friend have created a whole new definiton on equality and justice.
Shari'a law is not unjust, sadly is some countries the extremist men who run it is unjust. Don't question the law as whole, what you need to question are the individuals who run it, as individuals.

 

[جوري]

Yes I got that. I'm asking why the Quran prescribes 2 female wintnesses in case they have little knowledge of the field and doesn't make the same rule for men, so that the other man may correct the fist one if he errs.
Well, the explanation Abd-al-Latif posted seem to suggest women have a worse memory than men, it also mentions intelligence in the end.
sorry to hear that, well I wouldnt go to Egypt this time of year myself.

The Quran asks you for two male witnesses.. go back and read the verse!

 

[جوري]

[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:282] -----[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1]And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses.-------[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Whatsthepoint]

The Quran asks you for two male witnesses.. go back and read the verse!

No, you don't get it.
Yes it calls for two men. And if one man is missing, you need two additional women.
"the shari'ah generally accepts that this is advisable in cases where women have little knowledge and no expertise of the subject."
What I'm asking is why the Quran doesn't favor female witnesses in areas where females have greater expertise, for example you would need 2 women and if one was mising, two additional men would do.
Get it now?

 

[جوري]

NO, I don't? I said if a woman is an expert in her field then she alone is enough.. Incidents of such where one female witness is enough were listed by Ansar Al 'Adl if someone would be dexterous with the search option.
What the Quran doesn't cover in great detail is covered in sunnah... The Quran for instance tells us to perform prayers but doesn't instruct us to how and that is where we look toward the sunnah for Guidance.

As such I have stated if you are a female and an expert in your field then your witness is enough!

Either way I really don't see how a western system is superior?.. do you find trial by jury superior? I have seen many folks tried by an alleged "jury of their peers' who were anything but!
Sharia'a system is designed to be just not to give undue people grief!