Sharia law - do you really want it?

[Azy]

Then I don't think it's fair to level that criticism solely at the western world when there are plenty of laws which aim to ensure equality for the sexes.
Isn't it the people who disregard these rules (both muslim and non-muslim) that create these problems?

 

[Danah]

Then I don't think it's fair to level that criticism solely at the western world when there are plenty of laws which aim to ensure equality for the sexes.
Isn't it the people who disregard these rules (both muslim and non-muslim) that create these problems?

I think the thread is called Shari'ah law not country....so the thread starter is talking about the Shari'ah in Islam, right?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I think the thread is called Shari'ah law not country....so the thread starter is talking about the Shari'ah in Islam, right?

Well, Muslims here claim how shariah is better, using examples from the west to show how our system is doomed and depraved (which I don't think it is), but then, our system may be perfect and it's the people who are making it look bad.

 

[Danah]

Well, Muslims here claim how shariah is better, using examples from the west to show how our system is doomed and depraved (which I don't think it is), but then, our system may be perfect and it's the people who are making it look bad.

its not people who are making your system bad..........look at ur system very careful and see what the society got from it. I dont need to prove that....the corruptness that western societies are suffering from are enough to prove that, and if any Muslims society will try to copy them they will end up in the same miserable situation that westerns societies are in.
Do you need me to show you the latest statistics of the teenage pregnancy, or the number of people who suffer from AIDS, or may be you want to see the number of people killed in accidents due to driving under Alcohol...just mention what do you want Man!!!

This is what u got from your system


one last point, Dont switch the discussion to something else!!! we are talking about something specific here.

 

[Azy]

I think the thread is called Shari'ah law not country....so the thread starter is talking about the Shari'ah in Islam, right?

That's what I meant
Perhaps I should have worded it:
"Isn't it the people who disregard these Muslim rules (Shari'ah) and non-muslim rules (e.g. UK Law) that create these problems?"

the corruptness that western societies are suffering from are enough to prove that, and if any Muslims society will try to copy them they will end up in the same miserable situation that westerns societies are in.
Do you need me to show you the latest statistics of the teenage pregnancy, or the number of people who suffer from AIDS, or may be you want to see the number of people killed in accidents due to driving under Alcohol...just mention what do you want Man!!!

Again, is it the system at fault or the people who fail to follow the rules?

There are laws against sex with a minor (under 16, statutory rape), and organisations/laws which aim to ensure people are responsible for their children (e.g. CMEC, Child Support Act).
There are most certainly laws against driving under the influence of alcohol and extensive government campaigns exist.

(As a matter of interest Saudi Arabia has an appalling road safety record, something like 10 times as many road deaths per car when compared to the UK)

Muslims who don't follow the rules are responsible for some horrible things, I'm pretty sure I don't have to spell all those out to you.

 

[Gator]

...Do you need me to show you the latest statistics of the teenage pregnancy, or the number of people who suffer from AIDS, or may be you want to see the number of people killed in accidents due to driving under Alcohol...

Hello Saya, Could we do a quick experiment on people's perceptions. WITHOUT looking them up could you tell me what the percentage rate of (in US or UK):

1) Teen Pregnancy
2) People with HIV/AIDS
3) HIV/AIDS deaths
4) People killed in auto accidents due to alcohol
5) People with Cancer
6) Cancer deaths per year

Just want what you know based on what you've read or best guess.You can PM me if you want.

Anyone else can join in too, but as long as you don't look them up on the web or anywhere else. I just want to get people's perceptions. And hey if you know put those down too.

This will be an honor system or course.

Thanks.

 

[Thinker]

what news channel was it or newspaper?

It was sky news, they sent a couple of reporters (one male one female) over to Pakistan and they got into the taliban controlled areas. There was a piece on the news from them each day for about a week. They also interviewd the President of Pakistan who denied that he had done a deal with the SWAT valley province for them to be allowed to operate sharia law.

 

[Thinker]

peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker Quote:
I really don’t understand where you get this idea from.


you said: Really?? Do you need more evidence? Look at the advertisements there…see how they are treat their women, I have been in UK twice and the most thing made me feel sick is the pictures of the advertisements there. Or walking around in parks and see each man holding a woman in his hand as if he is holding a piece of accessory…I remember reading an article in a newspaper long time ago about how they need to change the image of the woman in the west to make her more effective rather than being a necklace in the nick of the man, they even arrange a new kind of competition for women to vote for the best housewife who is very caring about her family and very educated, instead of being very sexy and going around in the evaluation of the competition naked. They themselves got sick of those stupid competitions that treat women as naked dulls to choose who the best one is………so just have a look again at your media and you will know what I am meaning.

First try to understand that you (like the rest of the human race) are very susceptible to indoctrination. What you and I believe is coloured by the environment in which we live; I know that and I constantly strive to shed my cultural baggage when trying to look at situations objectively. You have watched TV propaganda, listened to sermons in the mosque and will have reinforced that misconceived impression in conversation with those around you of like mind. I am also subject to those same influences but I know that and I build it into my judgements. . . . . . . You see a western man holding a woman’s hand “as if he is holding a piece of accessory,” why did you not see that it was the woman holding the man’s hand as if he was a piece of accessory?” The reason is because you are seeing it through eyes which have been indoctrinated to see it that way. . . . You look at the advertisements and presume the women are being ‘used’ why do you not see that the women in those advertisements are using you to make easy money for themselves. You talk about being a good housewife like it is something to be prized above all else, to women in the west it is simply a thing in their life as important as many other things. If you want to see the truth you’ll need to factor in the possibility that what you currently believe is what you have been told, not what you have seen (Please forgive me if I sound condescending)

 

[Thinker]

peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker
I am a native Briton and I can tell you that the law of Britain grants absolute equality between men and women and no man can compel a woman to do anything. A hundred years back a wife was the property of her husband, fifty years back the woman’s marriage vows were to love, honour and OBEY her husband. None of that exists any more and there is no law or custom that supports any person to compel or coerce any woman to do anything she didn’t want to do. If you think that women here take their clothes off (or whatever)

you said: I know what you are trying to say in terms of quality……. but I don’t see that women are treated with respect in the western society, you can't say that I am just throwing words randomly because I saw that with my own eyes.


Depends what you mean by respect. I would step aside for a woman to pass and I would open the door for her and allow her to enter the room before me. That’s because I am old and was taught that was ‘good manners.’ There are some women in the west that complain that by doing those things I am suggesting that they are weaker and I am stronger and that we are in some way not equal. Again, you see those men stepping aside as a sign of respect, why would they respect only women and not men who want to pass; how do they know you are worthy of respect; is it a sign of respect or is it a gesture of their strength and a statement saying that they have the power to allow you or not allow you to pass?

 

[Thinker]

peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker
because they are compelled by some man you are very wrong.

you said: Many workplaces there force women to wear a specific kind of clothes, if they did do that they are fired!! So, is that freedom???


You are totally wrong there, only clothing that is required for safety is compulsory and then it is compulsory for both men and women.
If you are referring to the burka, women here can wear it or not wear it as they choose. Some jobs, like teaching have deemed that it is necessary for the children to see the face of the teacher. Apart from that women in the west can choose to wear the burka or anything they like, women in areas under sharia law cannot choose to wear what they like can they?

 

[Thinker]

Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker
I believe that men and women should be equal, one should not have the power to compel the other to do anything, and one should not have less freedom or less authority than the other. Without equality there is no freedom.

you said: Can you elaborate your view please instead of talking too general, so I can understand what exactly you trying to reach?


Equality is equality I am not sure how it can be explained it just is. I can give examples . . . I cannot compel my wife to cover herself or wear some particle piece of clothing. I cannot insist that she must get my permission to do anything or go anywhere. If I commit adultery or any other wrong the penalty for me is the same as the penalty for her etc. etc

 

[Thinker]

Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker
I recall your earlier post and I felt your anger towards me which I believe is unjustified.

you said: I will be very direct here, I was angry at the beginning from your way of saying that Muslim females here are frightened to say their opinions about the Shariah laws, I hate the way you throw your assumptions and trying to talk in the place of the others


It has become a trend that some Muslims get angry whenever anyone questions any aspect of Islam. I presume (and yes I know I am making resumptions but that not a bad thing) . . I presume that they go to the mosque and listen to sermons from Imams telling them that any one who questions Islam is attacking and or insulting Islam. I constantly question my own beliefs, I believe it is good and healthy to question and re-examine what we believe. Surely if you truly believe that what you believe is the truth you would welcome it being questioned as it gives you the opportunity to show why you believe it to be true,

 

[Thinker]

Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinker
A picture formed in my head of a society run by men who want their women to remain uneducated, in the home or covered from head to toe and I niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime. Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.


you said: I am a female that going around covered from head to toe alhumdulilah and I feel that I am treated in my society as a queen. I dont feel that being covered is preventing me to be effective person as I stated in my previous post. If I pass by a place fill with men and there is only a small space for me to pass then all the men standing there will move aside to give me more space to pass with a looks full with respect, even if they were not good muslims. For me, wearing hijab is my proud!! its not like the dark image you have in your mind.


Yes but do you have the freedom to choose not to wear clothing covering your head? What would happen to you if you decided to stop wearing that type of clothing? Have you asked yourself why you are wearing it, have you ever questioned yourself closely on the possibility that you are wearing that clothing for any reason other than you think it pleases God?

If you never investigate the possibility that what you believe could be false, how can you know it is true?

 

[YusufNoor]

let me attempt to answer this as best as i can, although i'm not sure why!

Bismiallahir Rahmanir Raheem

half a witness: stop viewing this with Kufr eyes for a minute, we are talking about Islam. in Islam men and women are different. what might appear lopsided to you may actually be equal or even lopsided the OTHER way.

and i'm basically giving you the Mufti Menk view here [including plagiarism] what i haven't heard i won't answer.

Men are created from clay [dirt] and woman are created from something living, ie, MAN. as a result of this, women have MUCH MUCH MORE MERCY in their created being while men struggle to make sense out of things. in a case where 2 women equal one mans witness, it is because of a woman's Mercy the she be given the opportunity to discuss events with the other women who are witnesses. the man has NO SUCH PRIVILEGE!

2 woman are walking into a courtrooom and they meet a sister who is crying. they move to comfort her, she wails that her only son who provides for her, her sister, her mother and a sick aunt will be executed if found guilty. alas but there is no hope for them if he is taken away. one of the women decides that she feels bad for the poor mother and starts to regret being there to testify. the other one can bring her back to reality.


they inherit less: lets use this example, Abdu and Binta are brother and sister. Binta is a widower living with mom and dad while Abdu has a wife and 3 kids. the parents are killed in a car wreck and after all other portions are taken out, $90,000 is left for them. Abdu gets $60,000 and Binta gets $30,000. outside of Sharia this might appear unfair, but let's look at the reality. Abdu, as a Muslim is required to support his wife and family, so basically his 60,000 will be spent evenly among his family averaging out to about 12,000 each. HOWEVER as Binta's only closest living male relative, he MUST provide for her! PERIOD! her $30,000 is HERS ALONE to spend as she wishes, while Abdu must now use part of his $60,000 to support Binta! in real terms, Abdu's "share" has now dropped down to $10,000 while Binta's has improved to $40,000!

EVEN if Abdu's situation improves to that where HIS WIFE has an opportunity to work [Islamically.] ANY AND ALL INCOME that she earns is HERS and HERS ALONE! Men have the responsibility to support their wives and children and any other woman who may fall under their care!


can't marry 4 men: well, it is the JOB of the men to support the family, if a women doesn't work how can she support 1 husband, let alone 2 or more. In Islam, under the Sharia, a man may only take additional wives IF he can AFFORD and under the provision that he treat them fairly! in this manner it should be no great difficulty if a wife gets pregnant.

as we have seen from the previous example, men have clear cut responsibilities [and we talking about Sharia, not how some tribes/Nations/Muslims approach the situation]. how would a woman who is pregnant support 4 husbands and any children? and imagine that being further limited by the view that breastfeeding should take place for 2 years per child. and imagine how often she would be pregnant!

and further more, we have the case that a child MUST BE given the name of his father! PERIOD! IT IS A GRIEVOUS SIN NOT TO TELL A FATHER WHO IS HIS REAL CHILD OR A CHILD WHO IS HIS REAL FATHER! would not this be a bit difficult in places where paternity tests aren't sold in the market place?


i nicked some of that from Mufti Menk's Muslim Women! Are they Oppressed?

found here:

http://www.nazirakoob.com/menk/Vol1.html#Part8

DIVORCE: one of the Sahabah was allowed to divorce her husband just because she feared form her religion. the Prophet, pbuh, merely told her to give the dowry back and that was it!

from Bukhari:

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 198:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

The sister of 'Abdullah bin Ubai narrated (the above narration, 197) with the addition that the Prophet said to Thabit's wife, "Will you return his garden?" She said, "Yes," and returned it, and (then) the Prophet ordered Thabit to divorce her. Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The wife of Thabit bin Qais came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I cannot endure to live with him." On that Allah's Apostle said, "Will you return his garden to him?" She said, "Yes."

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 199:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The wife of Thabit bin Qais bin Shammas came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for any defects in his character or his religion, but I am afraid that I (being a Muslim) may become unthankful for Allah's Blessings." On that, Allah's Apostle said (to her), 'Will you return his garden to him?" She said, "Yes." So she returned his garden to him and the Prophet told him to divorce her.


i don't know about: voting, heads of state or the slave thing.

:bump1:

 

[aamirsaab]

...
It has become a trend that some Muslims get angry whenever anyone questions any aspect of Islam. I presume (and yes I know I am making resumptions but that not a bad thing) . . I presume that they got to the mosque and listen to sermons from Imams telling them that any one who questions Islam is attacking and or insulting Islam.

That is your problem: you keep presuming and assuming about Islam - that's why you've received any hostility. If I go into a Christian forum and start posting: ''why do you believe in a man god, I think it is silly and in my book noone should do that'' (or words of similar effect) - I would get banned. And rightly so because what I have just done there is cause an annoyance...for no reason. This is usually deemed troll-like behaviour and often leads to thread closure and member banning.

You so far have been very lucky in this thread - the mods and members on the whole have been reasonably patient given your quizzing of Islamic principles (thus far, noone has expressed any interest in it being locked). So just a reminder: you're tredding on very thin ice right now.

I constantly question my own beliefs, I believe it is good and healthy to question and re-examine what we believe. Surely if you truly believe that what you believe is the truth you would welcome it being questioned as it gives you the opportunity to show why you believe it to be true,

Indeed muslims, in general, do. Again, you have made another assumption in that muslims do not question their faith.

The very reason Islam has lasted 1400 + years is BECAUSE the followers (and non-muslims) have questionned the rulings and have taken the time to understand it ( with the majority having become stronger in their faith as a result - proof is Islam being the 2nd largest religion in the world). I question some of the teachings every now and again and I reflect upon the answer - it is one of the many reasons I still am a muslim.

I don't follow Islam because my parents do or because I was raised as one: I had a choice in the matter as an adult and took it.

So please, quit with your assumptions.

 

[Azy]

The very reason Islam has lasted 1400 + years is BECAUSE the followers (and non-muslims) have questionned the rulings and have taken the time to understand it ( with the majority having become stronger in their faith as a result - proof is Islam being the 2nd largest religion in the world). I question some of the teachings every now and again and I reflect upon the answer - it is one of the many reasons I still am a muslim.

I don't really want to get embroiled in this argument but surely you could apply that reasoning to Judaism and Christianity and conclude that they should have been forgotten long ago due to the obvious corruption and false teachings therein?

 

[alcurad]

Islam's message is still contained in the qur'an and the actions of the prophet, no matter how much the clergy pollute, add or subtract.
is that the same with those other religions?

 

[Danah]

Gator...........I dont know why you are requesting each one to come up with a percentage rate?
Do you think that I will come up with something I made???
pick one of those statistics posted on the internet by official organizations and see what it said!! I don't bring statistic from my pocket.


Now.....Thinker, I wonder why you did not post all replies in one post and why you did quote my posts that way, that gave me a hard time to read ....anyways

First try to understand that you (like the rest of the human race) are very susceptible to indoctrination. What you and I believe is coloured by the environment in which we live; I know that and I constantly strive to shed my cultural baggage when trying to look at situations objectively. You have watched TV propaganda, listened to sermons in the mosque and will have reinforced that misconceived impression in conversation with those around you of like mind. I am also subject to those same influences but I know that and I build it into my judgements. . . . . . . You see a western man holding a woman’s hand “as if he is holding a piece of accessory,” why did you not see that it was the woman holding the man’s hand as if he was a piece of accessory?” The reason is because you are seeing it through eyes which have been indoctrinated to see it that way. . . . You look at the advertisements and presume the women are being ‘used’ why do you not see that the women in those advertisements are using you to make easy money for themselves. You talk about being a good housewife like it is something to be prized above all else, to women in the west it is simply a thing in their life as important as many other things. If you want to see the truth you’ll need to factor in the possibility that what you currently believe is what you have been told, not what you have seen (Please forgive me if I sound condescending)

I dont need someone to teach me how to believe in things around me, I am old enough to know whats going on........I am someone who is usually look at the latest news that published by the western media itself.............and I will not go through what you think of my thoughts because it seem that everyone will hold his/her thoughts strongly, so better to cut it from the beginning

Depends what you mean by respect. I would step aside for a woman to pass and I would open the door for her and allow her to enter the room before me. That’s because I am old and was taught that was ‘good manners.’ There are some women in the west that complain that by doing those things I am suggesting that they are weaker and I am stronger and that we are in some way not equal. Again, you see those men stepping aside as a sign of respect, why would they respect only women and not men who want to pass; how do they know you are worthy of respect; is it a sign of respect or is it a gesture of their strength and a statement saying that they have the power to allow you or not allow you to pass?

because you are old and still have such manners that you got through your long life, but what about young men?? will they do the same??
I think teenagers these days are worse than teenagers at your time

You are totally wrong there, only clothing that is required for safety is compulsory and then it is compulsory for both men and women.
If you are referring to the burka, women here can wear it or not wear it as they choose. Some jobs, like teaching have deemed that it is necessary for the children to see the face of the teacher. Apart from that women in the west can choose to wear the burka or anything they like, women in areas under sharia law cannot choose to wear what they like can they?

*sigh*...how should I say it?
well, I did not mean Muslim women in west, I meant non muslims, there are many places using women bodies to attract more customers like bars and such places..........I dont need to start the long list though!

I will answer the freedom of muslim women below

Equality is equality I am not sure how it can be explained it just is. I can give examples . . . I cannot compel my wife to cover herself or wear some particle piece of clothing. I cannot insist that she must get my permission to do anything or go anywhere. If I commit adultery or any other wrong the penalty for me is the same as the penalty for her etc. etc

Regard clothing, each one has to follow the instructions of Islam in terms of clothing, even men in Islam have to wear modest clothes, so its not only dressing rules for women

This is what Quran said about the penalty of adultery for unmarried man or woman:
The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.[2:24]
while for the married man or women its stoning to death according to Sunnah.......for both of them.

It has become a trend that some Muslims get angry whenever anyone questions any aspect of Islam.
I presume (and yes I know I am making resumptions but that not a bad thing) . . I presume that they go to the mosque and listen to sermons from Imams telling them that any one who questions Islam is attacking and or insulting Islam. I constantly question my own beliefs, I believe it is good and healthy to question and re-examine what we believe. Surely if you truly believe that what you believe is the truth you would welcome it being questioned as it gives you the opportunity to show why you believe it to be true,

if that is your view about muslims.....then I feel that I cant continue discussing with such a person holding such a view, I am really disappointed on you, dont made me feel that I was wasting my time here in this thread plz......sorry about that, but I think if you are really honest in learning about Islam you need to do study Islam again from the early basics, because such a view about Muslims is gonna block your mind to understand anything about Islam....and you will gain nothing by that

Yes but do you have the freedom to choose not to wear clothing covering your head? What would happen to you if you decided to stop wearing that type of clothing? Have you asked yourself why you are wearing it, have you ever questioned yourself closely on the possibility that you are wearing that clothing for any reason other than you think it pleases God?

If you never investigate the possibility that what you believe could be false, how can you know it is true?

I think its very hard to explain the importance of religion to an agnostic guy.....its like explaining the colors to a blind person...........there is no intent for offensive here at all so dont misunderstand me. But how I can explain that to you.
There is no way I will think one day about taking off my hijab, its important to me as my creed is important to me.........and the creed is equal to my own life in the importance. So how I can explain to you what I will do if I lose my purpose of life?

for women in Islam.....if she chose to follow Islam she has to follow its instructions, its not a grocery you pick whatever you want and leave the rest..

I hope you change your view about that "attacking muslims by asking them questions" thing........otherwise I will just stop posting on this thread because it will be nothing but a waste when I have maaaany other things to do these days and I hardly find the time to come to LI

 

[Thinker]

That is your problem: you keep presuming and assuming about Islam - that's why you've received any hostility. If I go into a Christian forum and start posting: ''why do you believe in a man god, I think it is silly and in my book noone should do that'' (or words of similar effect) - I would get banned. And rightly so because what I have just done there is cause an annoyance...for no reason. This is usually deemed troll-like behaviour and often leads to thread closure and member banning.

You so far have been very lucky in this thread - the mods and members on the whole have been reasonably patient given your quizzing of Islamic principles (thus far, noone has expressed any interest in it being locked). So just a reminder: you're tredding on very thin ice right now.

So please, quit with your assumptions.

Greetings respected moderator,

At the risk of incurring your wrath (which I really do not want to do) I would like to examine your observations on my post and the issues surrounding it.

I can assure you and anybody else that I do not wish to offend anybody. I do think about what I say and consider whether it might cause offence. Sometimes when I am not sure I ask myself the question “should any reasonable person be offended by what I am saying?” if there is any doubt I don’t say it. What I can say is that I have never knowingly said anything with the intention to offend and I am always ready to apologies if I have caused offence.

I caused offence to one member in this thread for failing to answering questions posed in certain posts and if you look back I apologised for that. Perhaps because of that post I was careful to try and answer all the questions posed by SAYA and it is my answer to one of those question that I have seemingly offended you and for that I apologies. You criticise me for making presumptions or assumptions, I take on board your criticism but in defence I would argue that without all the evidence and total conclusion, we all make presumptions and assumptions whether we want to or not. I wonder (with respect) whether you are making assumptions about me?

In your example of my wrong doing you say . . . “If I go into a Christian forum and start posting: ''why do you believe in a man god, I think it is silly and in my book no one should do that'' (or words of similar effect) - I would get banned. And rightly so because what I have just done there is cause an annoyance...for no reason. First off, I can’t see why a Christian forum would be offended by that question – maybe my skin is too thick but I can’t see why the question would cause offence. Next (at the risk of making assumptions) you say that you would rightly be banned for asking the question because you had posed the question solely to cause annoyance. Whereas I cannot see how that question would cause annoyance I agree that it would be wrong to pose questions solely for the purpose of causing annoyance. Are you suggesting that I have posed a question for no reason other than to cause annoyance? Are you suggesting that if a question is likely to annoy somebody it should not be asked notwithstanding that the person asking has a genuine desire to learn the answer? I have explained several times in this thread why I asked the question starting the thread and I can assure you I didn’t ask it to cause annoyance, I am genuinely surprised by some of the answers (but respect their views) and I am genuinely surprised that the question kicked off 18 pages of debate;18 pages later I can see how the question has raised as many questions as it has answered but I didn’t know that would happen when I posed the question and I still have lots I'd like to know.

Peace

Thinker

 

[alcurad]

^the larger part of making a forum is to have such discussions, some people can't take it though.
I don't see a point to closing the thread right away if someone makes a post or two regardless of how unnecessary they seem.
my two yen,,