Which religion is closest to Islam?

  • Thread starter Thread starter abdmez
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 376
  • Views Views 60K

Which religion is closer to Islam?


  • Total voters
    0
Islam only agrees with the 10 Commandments in regards to other Muslims. If Muslims regarded the 10 Commandments to all people there would be no subjugation, or disallowing anyone to vote on the laws that govern subjugation. Because in these laws (Sharia) there is nothing to stop killing, persecution, torture, etc of anyone not a Muslim.
Care to back up that statement?
Hartman - Germany

Title
War Ethics in Islam

Question
I am not a Muslim. Yet I’m a peace-loving person and I am eager to know whether there are ethics that govern war in your religion, especially as we know and see what happens nowadays: gross violations of all ethics and teachings. Your earliest response will be very much appreciated.

Date
01/Apr/2004

Name of Counsellor

Topic
Relations during War
trick-1.gif
trick-1.gif
trick-1.gif
Answer
trick-1.gif
trick-1.gif
In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear brother in humanity, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

First of all, we would like to tell you that war is decreed in Islam in self defense. This indicates that aim behind war is to ward off aggression not to impose Islam as a religion. Referring to this, Allah Almighty says: “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily God is most powerful for their aid.” (Al-Hajj:39)

Turning to the main topic of the question concerning war ethics in Islam, we would like to develop the whole issue while dealing with the following main points:

1-Personal Behavior of the Troops:

In war, as it is in peace, the instructions of Islam are to be observed. Worship does not cease in war. Islamic jurisprudence maintains that whatever is prohibited during peace is also prohibited during war. War is no excuse to be lenient with misbehaving troops. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said: “Beware of the prayer of the oppressed; for there is no barrier between it and Allah.” Here, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, differentiates between the oppressed believers and non-believers.

2-Whom to Fight:

Fighting should be directed only against fighting troops, and not to non- fighting personnel, and this is in compliance with the Qur’anic verse that reads: “ Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.” (Al-Baqarah: 190)

In one of the battles, a woman was found killed, and this was denounced by the Prophet saying "She did not fight" This will be further detailed under the instructions given to the armies and their commanding chiefs by the Prophet and his Caliphs.

3-The Prophet's instructions to Commanding Chiefs:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used to instruct his commanding chiefs saying: “Fight in the cause of Allah. Fight those who deny Allah; Do not be embittered. Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children or those (people) in convents.”

4-Abu-Bakr's instructions to Usama's Campaign on Syria:

“Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women. Do not cut or bum palm trees or fruitful trees. Don’t slay a sheep, a cow or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in hermitages, leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for.”

5-Abu-Bakr's Instructions to Yazid ibn-Abi Sufian:

“I give you ten commandments: don’t kill a woman or a child or an old person, and don’t cut trees or ruin dwellings or slay a sheep but for food. Dont burn palm trees or drown them. And don’t be spiteful or unjust.”

6-Maintaining Justice and Avoidance of Blind Retaliation:

None can be more illustrative in this respect than the words of the Qurt’an. Allah Almighty says: “ O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.” (Al-Maidah: 8)

7-Medical and Nursing Services:

From the early days of Islam the sanctity of the medical profession was recognized. Christian and Jewish doctors were employed by the Islamic state since the days of the Umayyads, and some of them were even court and personal physicians to caliphs. Under the tolerant attitude of Islam, some of them got the chance to unfold their full scientific potential and thus contributed to the progress of medical knowledge.

Medical help was a right to all men in spite of religion or creed. That this was also extended to those amongst enemy. An example well known in the West is that of Saladin securing medical help to his opponent, Richard Lion Heart of England who was seriously ill during the Crusades. Saladin sent him his own doctor and personally supervised Richard's treatment until he became well.

In quoting this particular example, one dare say that such an attitude was quite different to the behavior characterizing the invading crusaders. When the crusaders entered Jerusalem on July 15th 1099, they slaughtered seventy thousand Muslims including women, children and old men. They broke children's skulls by knocking against the wall, threw babies from roof tops, roasted men over fire and cut up women's bellies to see if they had swallowed gold.

This description was given by Gibbon, a Christian writer, and commented on by Ludbig Wbo wondered how come after those horrible atrocities they prayed at the burial place of Christ for blessing and forgiveness (Draper/History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, Vol. 2, p. 77).

We do not mention this in bitterness or prejudice for every honest Muslim or Christian well knows that Christianity is something and many deeds of the crusaders are something else.

8-Prisoners of War:

For the first time in religious or sectarian history, Islam adopted an attitude of mercy and caring for the captured enemy. Unprecedented by previous legal systems, and long before the Geneva Convention, Islam set the rule that the captive is sheltered by his captivity and the wounded by his injury.

Previously, it was the custom for the captive to work for his food or get it through private means. The Qur’an made it a charity to feed the prisoners saying:

“Lo! the righteous shall drink of a cup whereof the mixture is of water of Kafur. A spring wherefrom the slaves of Allah drink, making it gush forth abundantly. Because they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide spreading. And feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan and the prisoner, for love of Him. (Saying): We feed you, for the sake of Allah only. We wish for no reward nor thanks from you.” (Al-Insan: 5-9)

The Prophet instructed his Companions to be good to the captives. In one of his traditions, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, ordered his Companions saying: “ You should be good to the captives.”

Abu Aziz-ibn Umair, one of the captives of Badr battle, recalls:

“Whenever I sat with my captors for lunch or dinner, they would offer me the bread and themselves the dates, in view of the Prophet's recommendation in our favor (in that desert situation bread was the more luxurious item of food than dates)

As soon as any of them held a piece of bread, he would offer it to me. "Feeling shy, I would give it back to one of them but he would immediately return it to me."

Another, Thumama ibn-Athal, was taken prisoner and brought to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, who said: “Be good to him in his captivity.” When the Prophet went home he instructed to collect whatever food there, and ordered it sent to the prisoner.

When the Jewish tribe of Bani Qurayzah were captured, loads of dates were regularly carried to them, with the Prophet's instructions to shelter them from the summer sun and to provide them with water to drink.

From the legal point of view, Muslim opinion is unanimous on the prohibition of subjecting the captives to ill treatment by withholding food, drink or clothing.


9-The Fate of War Prisoners:

This was based upon the teaching of the Qur’an:

“Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.” (Muhammad: 4)

According to Islamic law, the captive belongs to the state and not to his captor. The ruler has the ultimate option, as he sees fit, of granting freedom or doing that after taking a ransom.

Among those whom the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, granted freedom was a poet called Abu-Azza who said to the Prophet: “I have five daughters who have no one to support them, so give me away to them as a charity and I promise never to fight you or help your enemies.

Abul-As Ibn Al Rabiae was freed for a ransom, which the Prophet later returned back to him. Later, the man embraced Islam.

Umarna Ibn-Athal was set free upon his promise not to provide the enemy with food. This gentle treatment touched the man’s heart and was then converted to Islam saying to the Prophet: "There was a time when your face was the most hated face to me, and there comes a day when it is the most loved.”

Sometimes captives were exchanged for Muslim captives in enemy hands. An acceptable ransom that was quite often carried out was to teach ten Muslim children to read and write. It is noteworthy that modern international law allows for setting free a prisoner of war on equivalent lines.

Personnel were set free upon their word of honor not to fight again, and they should not be ordered by their governments to go to battle again. If they break their promise, they might be punishable by death if they are captured again.


10-Nonbelligerents

Islam never fought nations but fought only despotic authorities. Islamic war was one of liberation and not of compulsion. The freedom of the liberated people to decide their religion has already been mentioned, and it was to ensure this freedom that Muslims fought. It is interesting to mention that when Muslims fought the Romans in Egypt, the Egyptian Copts sided with and helped Muslims against the Romans who were Christians like them. This was because Christian Egypt was suffering religious oppression by the Christian Romans to compel them to adopt their religious beliefs.

One of the earliest actions of the Muslims in Egypt was the assurance of religious freedom and the reinstatement of Bejamin as Bishop of Alexandria after years of hiding from the Romans in the western desert.

But religious freedom was but one aspect that Islam gave. Whether Arab or Egyptian, Muslim or Christian, Islam built up that FELLOWSHIP that humanity aspires to, in equality and fraternity .The story is well known of the running contest held in Egypt and won by an Egyptian to the dismay of an Arab competitor who was the son of `Amru Ibn Al-`Aas, governor of Egypt. The Arab hit the boy saying 'how dare you outrun me and I am the son of the nobility." Upon which Umar, the caliph, ordered the three all the way to Madinah, and ordered the Egyptian to avenge by hitting the offending Arab, saying: "Hit him back. Hit the son of nobility." Addressing `Amru, he uttered his famous saying: “O `Amru, since when have you enslaved people while their mothers have born them free.”

10-International Law:

The process of active intervention to stop or remove aggression is a development that modem international law has recognized.

The second world war for example was sparked by Germany's invasion of Poland, and drew into the fighting countries that were not direct parties to the conflict. One of the fruits of war was the creation of the United Nations in order to settle disputes between nations by peaceful means or indeed if necessary by a collective military force. No one should argue therefore that Egypt and the Roman Empire for example should have been left alone to solve their mutual problems. In modem times the rest of the family of nations consider it a duty to do something about it. Fourteen centuries prior to the establishment of the League of Nations and later the United Nations, Islam decreed such responsibility.

The legal principle of intervention to solve dispute was offered by the Qur’anic saying:

“If two parties of believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: But if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of God; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for God loves those who are fair.” (Al-Hujurat: 9)

11-Respect of Treaties and Agreements:

One of the major shortcomings of modern international politics is its meager regard to moral obligation. Time and again, treaties and agreements proved unworthy of the price of paper they had been written on. The most splendid produce of the human intellect in the field of international law might instantly vanish upon the call of greed or creed at this age that we wish to think has brought us to the epic of civilization.

And what is worse is that the most sophisticated achievements of scientific progress are often used as tools in the hands of Godless or God-disregarding policies: instead of being exploited 'in the cause of God.’

From the outset, Islam has emphatically prohibited treachery by taking the enemy by surprise attack. Recent examples of signing a pact or treaty with a nation as camouflage to hidden intent to attack it are quite contrary to Islam, as several quotations from the Qur’an reads:

“ O ye who believe! Fulfil your undertakings…”(Al-Maidah:1)

“Fulfill the convenant of God when you have entered into it, and break not your oaths after you have confirmed them; indeed you have made God your surety, for God knoweth an that you do.” (An-Nahl: 91)

If Muslims sense the treachery of any enemy with whom they had a treaty, they should declare to him the annulment of that treaty before embarking on war again.

“Thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for God loveth not the treacherous.” (Al-Anfal:85)

Although Muslims are bound to go to the help of their Muslim brethren who are religiously persecuted in the land of an enemy; they are not allowed to fulfill this duty if there is a treaty between the Muslim community and this enemy. Priority goes to honouring the treaty.

“But if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) God seeth an that you do." (Al-Anfal:72)

Now, Can any law be more idealistic!?


trick-1.gif
trick-1.gif
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother, thanks a lot for your good question. We commend your efforts in pursuit of knowledge.

First of all, it should be clear that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it, irrespective of the people’s religion, race, sect, etc.. The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, “…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (Al-An`am: 151) “Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)” (Al-Isra’: 33)

According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah: 32) Muslims do not hate – let alone kill - non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religion does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah.

When we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we don’t need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind.

With that statement, we don’t intend to sound apologetic, for Islamic concept of peace is very clear. It does not mean weakness, slavishness or surrendering to aggression and injustice. The Islamic concept of peace aims at securing security and harmony for the whole world, without any discrimination as to religion, race or color. Thus, Islam, right from its inception, waged a total war against injustice and oppression. It has made it clear that people should not be deprived of having access to the light of guidance. But throughout its history you can never find any trace of infringing upon people’s right to self expression, even at times that such right was misused. The cogent example to be mentioned here is the way the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, received the two envoys sent by Musailamah Al-Kazzab (the Liar). His fine remarks always ring in mind whenever the issue of diplomatic immunity comes to fore. He, peace and blessings be upon him, told the envoys when they addressed him in a very provocative way: “If not that the envoys should not be killed, I’d have ordered for you to be beheaded”, thus laying down the rule that was later codified as one of the principles of the modern international law.

The point here is, it’s not of the Islamic teachings to kill people just because they happen to be non-Muslims or happen to disagree with Muslims on some points. What attests to this is the fact that the first war in the Islamic history would have never occurred if not that the enemies of Islam could not be satisfied with expelling Muslims from their home (Makkah), rather they planned to carry the aggression to Madinah in order to exterminate Muslims once and for all. So the question that should have been asked is: why do opponents are always on the trail of Muslims?

Focusing more on your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“Islam is indeed a religion of love and peace. Islam does not teach people to kill all those who disagree with them simply because they disagree with them. If certain bigoted Muslims did so that is not the fault of Islam. How unjust would it be to say that Christianity is a religion that teaches violence and blood shed by looking at the historical performance of some so-called Christians: After all, Hitler who committed genocide against the Jews, the white supremacists in South America who practiced barbarities against the blacks, the Serbs who committed genocide against the Muslims in Bosnia, those who systematically practiced mass slaughter of Muslims and Jews in Spain, and burned heretics, etc. all claimed to be Christians. What about the Christians still killing each other in Ireland? So why use double standards in judging Islam? Stereotyping is wrong regardless of against whom we use it.

Vast majority of Muslims have nothing to do with such violence or bloodshed that may or may not have been committed by those who claim to be Muslims. According to the strict verdict of the Qur’an, taking life of a single human being unjustly is akin to taking the life of all humanity. A good Muslim, therefore, is one who believes in sanctity of all life. The Prophet, peace be upon him, taught us that if a person were to kill even a single little sparrow, it would appear before the Lord of the worlds seeking God’s justice against the person!” (Source: www.islam.ca)



Here is something that you might not read in the 10 Commandments... that God did not qualify the 10 Commandments to just include Jews, or just Christians, or just one group.
That sure does explain the crusades and the current colonial settler Zionist state of Israel!

On Wednesday morning, March 3, 2008, a group of prominent rabbis issued an unprecedented fatwa allowing the Israeli occupation army to bombard the Palestinian civil gatherings. The fatwa also called upon this army to annihilate and burn the Palestinian civilians.

Is this reasonable? And what is the Islamic attitude toward killing civilians?

Jazakum Allahu khayran.

Date
12/Mar/2008

Name of Mufti

Topic
Relations during War, Jihad: Rulings & Regulations
trick-1.gif
trick-1.gif
trick-1.gif
Answer
trick-1.gif
trick-1.gif
Wa`alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear sister in Islam, thank you for the confidence you place in us, and we implore Almighty Allah to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Islam stands against killing innocents. Even in war times, Islam does not allow killing civilians who have nothing to do with war, women, children, and worshippers in their places of worship. Also, it does not allow demolishing places of worship or destroying trees.

This clarifies that war in Islam is not meant to destroy and ruin. War in Islam should abide by morality and the ethics and regulations abided by Islam. Given this,
the difference between Zionists' destructive wars and our moral wars becomes clear.
In his response to your question, Dr. Muhammad Abdel-Latif Al-Banna, the managing editor of IslamOnline.net's (Arabic) Shari `ah Department, said,
People can see the difference between Zionists' destructive wars and our moral wars, but it is quite strange that their wars are now backed by rabbinic fatwas based on the Torah. That is why we are going to highlight and affirm the difference between their wars and our morality-based wars where women, old people, and civilians are not to be killed, and as long as the person in question is not a warrior. Adversely, in their wars children are killed, houses demolished, electricity cut, blockade imposed, and starvation spread. This clearly shows the immoral features of their wars and that they never comply with any peace pact. Even the absence of international condemnation testifies to collusion with them.
Zionists' War: Destructive
Now, it is not strange that such a fatwa be issued by Jewish rabbis, especially after destroying the infrastructures in Lebanon and killing civilians during their wars in different countries. For instance, they killed the students of Bahr Al-Baqar School in Egypt, murdered summer visitors in Palestine, and destroyed residential buildings in Beirut. They do all this under a religious cover or legitimacy. In my opinion, this legitimacy is most obviously based on the religious Hebraic state as a reference, because their Torah allows killing civilians and destroying humans and facilities.
Such is their distorted Torah on which they depended in issuing such fatwas that contradict all agreements and covenants. In spite of this, we have not heard – so far – any international jural organization blaming them, correcting their notions, or condemning what they have said.
Our Wars: Moral
They called upon their army to destroy and kill others, although this army was in no need for their fatwa. On the other hand, our Islamic Shari`ah is moral and decent in all its wars. It preserves lives, maintains honors, and never destroys people's facilities or property.
Concerning the battlefield where everybody is either killing or killed, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) taught his Companions that the message of fair war in Islam should make it clear to all people that Muslims are heralds of peace. Therefore, if they indulge in any war, it should be undertaken through their morals, including justice with which no one is to be wronged.
It has been narrated by Abu Dawud on the authority of Khalid ibn Al-Fazar, who said, "Anas ibn Malik told me that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, 'Set out in the Name of Allah, with (the help of) Allah, and according to the religion of the Messenger of Allah. Do not kill any man far advanced in years, nor a child, a baby, or a woman. And do not go into excesses. Gather your spoils of war together, do what is right, and do good; truly, Allah loves the good-doers'" (Abu Dawud, Sulayman ibn Al-Ash`ath, Sunan, the book of Jihad, hadith No. 2247, Dar Al-Hadith, Cairo).
This text clarifies that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) specified certain categories to be exempted from killing in wars; including:
Old people, children, and women: not to be killed
Old people:
In principle, they are not to be fought because of their old age. Thus, as a sign of respecting their old age and because they do not (usually) indulge in war, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) commanded that they are not to be killed.
Yet still, we should differentiate between two kinds of old people: First, those who only seek to find their livelihood with no intention of fighting; such have nothing to do with war or fighting; second, those who set plans for war, conspire against Muslims, and dedicate all their experience in life to this goal; it is permissible to fight such people.
Sheikh MuhammadAbu Zahrah, the well-known Muslim scholar, (may Allah have mercy upon him) said, "Old people are of two types: Those who are in charge of wars and have relevant (effective) opinions, and those who are not competent for this, nor do they have anything to do with war. The latter are not to be killed, because there are not enough reasons that obligate fighting (or killing) them. The former, however, can be legally killed, for they are warriors because of their opinions, planning, and conspiring.

In this regard, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered that Durayd ibn As-Simmah be killed in the battle of Hunayn. Although he was one hundred and twenty years old (120), this man was mindful enough to give effective advice, which he had already given in that battle, so he was a warrior because of this" (Muhammad Abu Zahrah, Nazariyyat Al-Harb fi Al-Islam, p. 38).

Women, Workers, and Children:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade killing these people, because they do not usually indulge in war. This is because – in principle – women do not fight and children do not carry weapons, choose (to fight), or realize (what war means). By the same token, workers are originally meant for construction, and war in Islam is not meant for destruction.
I mentioned these categories together under this title because the (relevant religious) texts have something in common concerning them, and these people themselves have a common denominator: They do not usually indulge in war. Moreover, in most cases war is imposed on them. For all these reasons, they have been tackled together under one title.
There are many texts to this effect, including a hadith narrated on the authority of Rabah ibn Rabi`, who said, "We were with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) in a battle when he saw the people assembling around something. He ordered a man to go and see what those people were assembling for. The man came back and said they were assembling around a killed woman. He (the Prophet) said, 'This (woman) would not fight for sure.' " The narrator said, "Khalid ibn Al-Waleed was in charge of the vanguard, so he (the Prophet) sent a man to Khalid to tell him: 'Do not kill a woman or a wageworker' " (Narrated by Abu Dawud, Book of Jihad, Hadith No. 2295).
This hadith includes two important remarks: First, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) denounced that a woman be killed; and secondly, he (peace and blessings be upon him) directly ordered Khalid – as well as all Muslim leaders – not to kill a woman or a wageworker.
This clearly indicates that killing women and wageworkers is not permissible as long as they do not fight or indulge in war. If, however, they do so, it will then be permissible to kill them, because leaving them would be (a support for) killing Muslims.
The reason why workers are not to be killed is that "they do not fight, nor do they have anything to do with war. This is because such people would not fight, as war is usually connected to warriors, and because war (in Islam) is not meant for fighting nations, but for warding off the powers of evil and mischief. That is why it is to be with those who carry weapons and fight, or those who set plans and plots. Moreover, workers – who are totally busy with cultivation or handiwork – are constructors, while war in Islam is not for deconstruction; it is only for warding off corruption. It is further because such workers are (in many cases) wretched under the dominion of unjust rulers, so they should not be a fuel for a war from which they would benefit nothing but suffering" (Muhammad Abu Zahrah, Nazariyyat Al-Harb fi Al-Islam, p. 38).
Just as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade killing women and wageworkers, he also forbade killing children, because they have not done anything wrong to be killed for. It has been narrated on the authority of Qatadah who narrated from Al-Hasan that Al-Aswad ibn Sari` said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) sent an expedition on the Day of Hunayn. As they were fighting the polytheists, they killed (some of their) offspring (children). When they returned, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) asked them, "Why did you kill offspring?" They replied, "O Messenger of Allah! (It is) only (because) they were children of the polytheists." He said, "Is it not that the best of you are children of polytheists?! By Him in Whose Hands Muhammad’s soul is, no person is born except on fitrah [Arabic for: natural disposition of belief in Allah] until his tongue expresses (this belief or otherwise)" (Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Musnad, The Makkans' Musnad, 15.36).
This is a form of reprimanding those who killed the polytheists' children, because those children had not yet realized (what was meant by war or polytheism), nor had they chosen that (war). Our Islamic Shari`ah requires reaching the age of puberty, sanity, and choosing (not to be under coercion) for a person to be legally responsible (for his actions). Therefore, it is not reasonable that this matter is such clear in our Shari`ah then we would act otherwise.
According to the narration of Ad-Darimi, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) confirmed that children must not be killed. Al-Aswad ibn Sari` said, "We went out with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) in some battle where he overcame the polytheists, so the people (Muslims) speeded up to kill (them) so much that they killed children. When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was told about that, he said, 'Why have some people hastened to kill (even) children? Behold! No children are to be killed!' repeating it three times" (Ad-Darimi, Sunan, the book of Siyar, Hadith No. 2354).
This denunciation – followed by forbiddance – confirms that Islam is keen on sparing the life of children in all cases. This is because "no aggression is expected from such weak children, so how should they bear the burden of others' aggression? War in Islam is not for annihilating enemies, but for preventing aggression. Therefore, it is not permissible that fighting should go beyond the motives for which it is originally stimulated" (Muhammad Abu Zahrah, Nazariyyat Al-Harb fi Al-Islam, p.38).
Contemporary Opinions on Killing Civilians
In a fatwa issued by Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, vice president of the European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR), concerning killing civilians in wars especially from Jews, he said,
Originally, it is prohibited to kill civilians, women, and children, but certain cases are exempted from this:
1. When all individuals on the enemy side participate in war, as then the term "civilian" would not apply to them.
2. When civilians do things to help militants, as then what they do would be regarded as a "military action."
3. When warriors use civilians, women, and children as a shield and there is no way for Muslim warriors to reach those militants except by killing those civilians.
4. When the enemies kill Muslim civilians, for then their civilians may be treated the same.
5. When a civilian "accepts" usurping a (Muslim) land, he is considered an occupier, and is not a civilian any more.
6. When children themselves are not intended (or targeted) to be killed (deliberately) without doing anything wrong or committing any crime.
It is well known that Israelis, men and women, indulge in war against Palestinians, so they are warriors. They are also usurpers of the (Palestinian) land, because the Jews in Palestine have emigrated from various countries, and they have no right in this land. In Islam, it is obligatory to liberate any Islamic land from occupation. It should also be known that jihad against the Jews is not because they are Jews, but because they are usurpers and warriors.
The same opinion was adopted by:

Dr. Ahmad Nawfal, professor of Shari`ah in Jordan;


Dr. Sheikh Hamid Al-`Ali, professor of Islamic culture in the faculty of Elementary Education, Kuwait;


Dr. Nizar `Abd Al-Qadir Rayyan, participant professor of the science of Hadith, Gaza University;


Sheikh Jalal Yusuf Ash-Sharqi, a personal status judge in Bahrain;


Esther 9:2 The Jews assembled in their cities throughout all the provinces of King Ahasuerus to lay hands on those who sought their harm; and no one could stand before them, for the dread of them had fallen on all the peoples.
And as for the Trinity, or Resurrection, you would have to get yourselves out of the Quran and read the New Testament, and any other texts that the Christians have. There is no attempt to do that. And that is what I am trying to say - the lack of trying on the part of Muslims to do such a thing.
It is amazing considering half the people you are addressing here are converts from Christianity!

No one says that you have to totally understand or agree/believe in it. But, to let others believe as they will without thinking that Islam is the only way to God. Or that Islam should be the law of the land when it should be kept at home and/or in the mosque.
Islam is the only way of life to Muslims, and should indeed be the law of the lands to the 1.86 billion of them!

And there have been historians that had no vested interest in the Resurrection, or Crucifixion, and they wrote about it.
so? much has been written about the pagan origin of the cross indeed I agree
In reading the New Testament we must cease to think of the man Jesus, and even of the “Son of God”, and think of him rather of the sun of god, for this is a solar myth, and its dying hero, a dying sun. [1]​

The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.

Tertullian confessed that pagans worshipped crucified saviors hanging on a cross.
"Crosses, moreover, we Christians neither venerate nor wish for. You indeed who consecrate gods of wood venerate wooden crosses, perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camps, what are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it." [1]
The pagan roots of Christianity are clearly indicated by this confession. Tertullian was a Christian who later became a Gnostic. He implies that Christians borrowed the sun-god myth.


image002-1.jpg


(Wilkinson's Egyptians, Sir John Gardner Wilkinson 1837-41)

The Pagan philosopher and satirist Celsus criticized Christians for trying to pass off the Jesus story as a new revelation when it was actually an inferior imitation of pagan myths. He asks:

Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christians-and if so, how are they unique? Or are ours to be accounted myths and theirs believed? What reasons do the Christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs? In truth there is nothing at all unusual about what the Christians believe, except that they believe it to the exclusion of more comprehensive truths about God.

The early Christians were painfully aware of such criticisms. How could Pagan myths which predated Christianity by hundreds of years have so much in common with the biography of the one and only savior Jesus? Desperate to come up with an explanation, the Church fathers resorted to one of the most absurd theories ever advanced. From the time of Justin Martyr in the second century onward, they declared that the Devil had plagiarized Christianity by anticipation in order to lead people astray! Knowing that the true Son of God was literally to come and walk the Earth, the Devil had copied the story of his life in advance of it happening and created the myths of Osiris-Dionysus.

The Church father Tertullian writes of the Devil's diabolical mimicry in creating the Mysteries of Mithras:

The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptizes his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Divine.

Studying the myths of the Mysteries it becomes obvious why these early Christians resorted to such a desperate explanation. (The Jesus Mysteries, pp. 26-27)
The scholar Timothy Freke says:

The Vatican was constructed upon the site of an ancient Pagan sanctuary because the new is always built upon the old. In the same way Christianity itself has as its foundations the Pagan spirituality that preceded it. (ibid, p. 12)


Amazingly, the bishop Tertullian believed Jesus was crucified, but he rejected the cross as pagan. This probably means the Church of Carthage also believed what Tertullian believed: The wooden cross is pagan.

Tertullian used to mark the forehead with a cross:

"In all our travels and movements", says Tertullian (De cor. Mil., iii), "in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross" [2]


It seems Tertullian acknowledged Jesus died on a cross, but rejected wooden crosses. Nevertheless, he unambiguously said that Christianity borrowed the cross and the concept of “dying for the sins of mankind”. Therefore, Christianity is rehashed paganism and the New Testament is recycled pagan myth!


The followers of Tammuz also marked the forehead with a cross!

A pagan sign of the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and the Egyptians, this cross was a symbol of the Roman god Mithras and the Greek Attis, and their forerunner Tammuz, the Sumerian solar god, consort of the goddess Ishtar. Conveniently, the original form of the letter 'T' was the initial letter of the god of Tammuz. During baptism ceremonies, this cross was marked on the foreheads by the pagan priest. [3]

The cross symbol (T) was the original cross of Jesus:

The cross of Christ, as experts seem to agree, was actually a bar placed across the top of an upright, so it was not a cross at all. It was a “Tee” (T), called “Taw” in Hebrew and “Tau” in Greek. So the cross that the victim was suspended from was actually a crossbar, and perhaps in those days this was called the cross. The “Taw” sign was the symbol of the dying and rising god, Tammuz, and “Taw” was the sign that was made on the heads of those marked for salvation by the god. So, crucifixion images might not be as conventional as the ones based on the Catholic crucifix. [1]

After the Egyptian/Greek/Roman pagans converted to Christianity, “these different signs of the cross were united in one large sign such as we now make. In the Western Church the hand was carried from the left to the right shoulder; in the Eastern Church, on the contrary, it was brought from the right shoulder to the left, the sign being made with three fingers. This apparently slight difference was one of the (remote) causes of the fatal Eastern Schism. [2]

The early Christians of Egypt were accused of sun-worship:

A letter ascribed in the Augustan History to the Emperor Hadrian refers to the worship of Serapis by residents of Egypt who described themselves as Christians, and Christian worship by those claiming to worship Serapis:

The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. (Augustan History, Firmus et al. 8) [1]

The cross was adopted six hundred years after Jesus’ departure.

It will come as a surprise to many that the first known figure of a god on a cross is a likeness of the sun god Orpheus from some three centuries B.C.E. The crucifix on the amulet on the cover of The Jesus Mysteries, by Freke and Gandy, clearly depicts this image. (Tom Harper, The Pagan Christ, pp. 45-46)

"That which is now called the Christian cross was originally no Christian emblem at all, but was the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and Egyptians -- the true original form of the letter T -- the initial of the name of Tammuz [...] That mystic Tau was marked in baptism on the foreheads of those initiated in the Mysteries, and was used in every variety of way as a most sacred symbol. [...] The Vestal virgins of Pagan Rome wore it suspended from their necklaces, as the nuns do now. The Egyptians did the same [...] There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found. The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the incarnation and death of Christ."

"The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol of life -- the ankh, a tau cross surmounted by a loop and known as crux ansata -- was adopted and extensively used on Coptic Christian monuments." (The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1995, volume 3, page 753)
"A still more curious fact may be mentioned respecting this hieroglyphical character [the Tau], that the early Christians of Egypt adopted it [...] numerous inscriptions, headed by the Tau, are preserved to the present day on early Christian monuments." (Wilkinson's Egyptians, by Sir J. G. Wilkinson, volume 5, page 283-284)
The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times, and among non-Christian peoples, may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship."
(The Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, 1910, volume 7, page 506)


Here is an excerpt from Misha'al ibn `Abdullah Al-Kadhi

The ancient Egyptians also adopted the cross as a religious symbol of their pagan gods. Countless Egyptian drawings depict themselves holding crosses in their hands. Among them, the Egyptian savior Horus is depicted holding a cross in his hand. He is also depicted as an infant sitting on his mother's knee with a cross on the seat they occupy. The most common of the crosses used by these pagan Egyptians, the CRUX ANSATA, was later adopted by the Christians.
The Egyptian savior, Osiris, the Egyptian god of the dead and the underworld, is sometimes represented holding out this cross to mortals signifying that this person has discarded mortality for the life to come.
Another cross has been unearthed in Ireland. It belongs to the cult of the Persian god of the sun "Mithra" and bears a crucified effigy. The Greeks and Romans too adopted the cross as their religious symbol many centuries before Christianity did the same. An ancient inscription in Tessaly is accompanied by a Calvary cross. More crosses can be found to adorn the tomb of king Midas in Phrygia. The above references may be referred to for many more examples. [1]



image004-2.jpg


(Orpheus crucified)


The legendary stories of ‘man-god’ saviors dying for the sins of their people (and rising three days later) were very common. Christianity is based on the sun-god myth. In fact the whole religion was fabricatedafter the departure of Jesus. None of these saviors are historical, but only personifications of the sun.

Here is an excerpt from Mather Walker’s essays:

Orpheus (from whom the Orphics received their name) and Dionysus went to Hades and returned. The Christians created the tradition that during the three days while Jesus was dead before his resurrection He went to hell and preached to the souls in prison.

Significantly, Plato, who follows the Orphic and mystery teachings throughout his dialogues, has the following to say, in the Republic II (362e), referring to the just man:
"What they will say is this, that such being his
disposition the just man will have to endure the lash,
the rack, chains, the branding iron in his eyes, and
finally, after every extremity of suffering, he will
be crucified."
The Orphics had a number of books which contained the details of their theology.These books have been lost, but I have no doubt this little jewel from Plato came straight from one of these. Dionysus was known by the name "Pentheus", i.e. "man of suffering." [1]
The Babylonian god Tammuz also died and resurrected.

Tammuz was a god of Assyria, Babylonia and Sumeria where he was known as Dumuzi. He is commemorated in the name of the month of June, Du’uzu, the fourth month of a year which begins at the spring equinox. The fullest history extant of this saviour is probably that of Ctesias (400 BC), author of Persika. The poet has perpetuated his memory in rhyme.
Trust, ye saints, your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.


Tammuz was crucified as an atonement offering: “Trust ye in God, for out of his loins salvation has come unto us.” Julius Firmicus speaks of this God rising from the dead for the salvation of the world. This saviour which long preceded the advent of Christ, filled the same role in sacred history. (Warning: atheist website [2]

Christianity is based on the sun-god myth.



image5-1.jpg




image6-1.jpg


image7-1.jpg


Source: [1] [2]


The doctrine of salvation by crucifixion had, like many of the ancient forms of religious faith, an astronomical origin. The sun is hung on a cross or crucified when it passes through the equinoxes. People in northern climates were saved by the sun’s crucifixion when it crossed over the equatorial line into the season of spring, at the vernal equinox at Easter, and thereby gave out a saving heat and light to the world and stimulated the generative organs of animal and vegetable life. (*)


This pagan festival is actually a combination of both Astoria (from which the word Easter is derived from), the female goddess of fertility of the northern European Saxons and the Isis-Osiris cult. The lover of Astoria, Attis, dies and is reborn annually, in conjunction with the summer solactice (spring time), the time of the year of the Easter celebrations. The theology of Attis was incorporated into the events of Prophet Jesus (as), according to the Christian church that is. The symbol of Astoria is the EGG, which is part of the Easter celebration (Easter Egg). In the Isis-Osiris cult of ancient Egypt, crucifixion was often a required means of sacrificing the King as the INCARNATION OF GOD for the SALVATION of man. Such bloody sacrifices were accompanied by the belief that the saviour’s flesh and blood had to be eaten and drank in a cannibalistic sacrament. This is currently practiced by the Catholic church, metaphorically, in all their masses. Yet, one cannot ignore the pagan roots of this act. The Catholic church actually believes in the transubstantiation of this ceremony, instituted by St. Thomas Aquinas in the 12th century, meaning, the Catholics believe that the bread and wine used turns into the actual flesh and blood of Prophet Jesus(as), exactly in line with the ceremony of the Isis-Osiris cult, which dates back to 1700 BC. The notion that Prophet Jesus(as) had to be sacrificed for the salvation of all mankind traces back to this older barbarism. [1]


The scholar Tom Harper states:

“The divine teacher is called, is tested by the “adversary”, gathers disciples, heals the sick, preaches the Good News about God’s kingdom, finally runs afoul of his bitter enemies, suffers, dies, and is resurrected after three days. This is the total pattern of the sun god in all the ancient dramas”. (The Pagan Christ, p. 145)


When the Council of Nicea took place, the Emperor Constantine


- Declared the Roman Sun-day to be the Christian Sabbath.


- Adopted the traditional birthday of the Sun-god, and the twenty-fifth of December, as the birthday of Jesus;


- Borrowed the emblem of the Sun-god, the cross of light, to be the emblem of Christianity;
- And, although the statue of Jesus replaced the idol of the Sun-god, decided to incorporate all the ceremonies which were performed at the Sub-gods birthday celebrations into their own ceremonies.

Christianity betrays the True Jesus as portrayed in the Quran, and there is no other alternative but to accept the True Jesus. The only Revelation of God that does not degrade Jesus is the Quran. All other Scriptures must be abrogated in favor of the Quran alone.

Here is the evidence for my assertions.
The fertilizing winter sun having been crucified, and the summer sun risen into the heavens in resurrection, the blood of the grape, ripened by its the heat, was symbolically “the blood of the cross,” or “the blood of the Lamb.” Jesus is not the true vine for no reason.

Because of our Christian culture and its imagery, the cross is necessarily the instrument of the saviour god’s torture. However, because the celestial origin of crucifixion in solar myths is that the sun crosses over the celestial equator, the heavenly sign of the equinoxes, the image of a crossover in the sky would be a cross like the Greek letter Chi (X) not a Plus (+). (Warning:Atheist website [1])

The evidence that Christianity was in its beginnings firmly rooted in an Egyptian-style, equinoctial mode of thinking still abounds today. The birthday of Jesus Christ was first celebrated by the earliest Church in the spring of the year. But in 345, Pope Julius decreed that the birthday (nobody knew any precise date for it, suggesting again that the entire thing was pure myth) should thenceforth be held on December 25, three days after the “death” of the winter solstice and the same day on which the births of Mithras, Dionysus, the Sol Invictus (unconquerable sun), and several other gods were traditionally celebrated. (Tom Harper, The Pagan Christ, p. 82).

The sun is born on the 25th of December, the birthday of Jesus Christ. The first and greatest of the labors of Jesus Christ is his victory over the serpent, the evil principle, or the devil. In his first labor Hercules strangled the serpent, as did Krishna, Bacchus, etc. his is the sun triumphing over the powers of hell and darkness; and, as he increases, he prevails, till he is crucified in the heavens, or is decussated in the form of a cross (according to Justin Martyr) when he passes the equator at the vernal equinox. (Lloyd Graham, Myths and Deceptions of the Bible, p. 208)

"Although surprising to us now, to writers of the first few centuries CE these similarities between the new Christian religion and the ancient Mysteries were extremely obvious. Pagan critics of Christianity, such as the satirist Celsus, complained that this recent religion was nothing more than a pale reflection of their own ancient teachings. Early 'Church Fathers,' such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus, were understandably disturbed and resorted to the desperate claim that these similarities were the result of diabolical mimicry. Using one of the most absurd arguments ever advanced, they accused the Devil of "plagiarism by anticipation," of deviously copying the true story of Jesus before it had actually happened in an attempt to mislead the gullible!" Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy (1999).

Julius Firmicus was a Christian author of the fourth century. He wrote a book called "The Errors of the Profane Religions." He found that many of these pagan religions of the Roman world had Saviors or Redeemers. He learned that every year the birth of these gods was celebrated, often in mid-winter, and every year, often about the time of our Easter, the death and resurrection of the gods were celebrated. He discovered that in some of these religions bread and wine were used at the altar, and candles and incense and sacred water were part of the ritual. (Joseph McCabe (1867-1955) The Story of Religious Controversy. Chapter 2)

“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun.” Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
The desperate response by Christians to solve these parallels is weak because the Gospel story doesn’t have to be
100% plagiarized! For example, Osiris was ripped to pieces and restored to life, but Jesus was never “ripped to pieces and restored to life”.
The cult of Osiris had a particularly strong interest towards the concept of immortality. According to the myth surrounding the cult, Set (Osiris's evil brother) fooled Osiris into getting into a coffin, which he then shut and threw into the Nile. Osiris's wife searched for his remains until she finally found them and brought them back to Egypt. Once Osiris's evil brother found out, he cut the body into pieces, and again threw them into the Nile. The faithful companion of Osiris, Isis, gathered up all the parts of the body and bandaged them together for a proper burial. The Gods were impressed by the devotion of Isis and thus restored Osiris to life in the form of a different kind of existence as the god of the underworld. [1]
Okay, we know Osiris died and resurrected differently from Jesus, but the story is the same: A “man-god” who dies and resurrects. The idea was borrowed by the Church, not the story itself. (*)

The website Tektonics confesses that Tammuz ‘resurrected’, but it has “no parallel to the Christian religion” which is nonsense. The early Church borrowed the idea.

The death and "raising" of Tammuz occurs every year and corresponds with the natural cycle of vegetation. This provides no parallel at all for the Christian religion, expect by redefining terms into meaninglessness (i.e., "resurrection" meaning not just a specific Jewish concept, but any dead-alive transition!) and ignoring vast differences in meaning. [2]


Nobody worships Tammuz today, but millions of Christians worship Jesus as the “crucified savior who rose again”. The writer desperately says “this provides no parallel at all to the Christian religion”. But the parallels are very striking and evident. The Greeks and Romans converted to Christianity because it resembled their previous beliefs!

A true Jew would have immediately recognized the teaching of Jesus as a reaffirmation of what Moses had taught. But to many a pagan, it must have seemed new and strange and perhaps a little complicated. Most of the pagans still believed in a multitude of gods who, it was thought, mixed freely with human beings, mated with them, and took part in every sphere of human life. To the common people of Greece, any description of Jesus must have seemed like a description of one of their gods, and they were probably quite ready to accept Jesus in this capacity. There was always room for one more god. However, the actual teaching of Jesus negated all their gods, since it affirmed the Divine Unity”. (Muhammad Ataur-Raheem, Jesus Prophet of Islam, p. 62)

Whatever else one may believe about Jesus, it is clear both from the New Testament documents and from the creeds of the early Church that he was a fully human being. He knew hunger, thirst, weariness; he endured pain, grief, and the agony of doubt; he experienced birth and death. His appearance must have been ordinary, for on several occasions when trouble was brewing he was able to simply lose himself in the crowds. The Church of the first few centuries had little trouble selling the idea of God-in-human form to a non-Jewish audience: this kind of myth was commonplace at this time. (Tom Harper, For Christ’s Sake, p. 32)

Paul produced a religion which encompassed different contradictory elements. He took the Unitarianism of the Jews and added to it the philosophy of the pagans”. (Jesus Prophet of Islam, p. 71)

This shift of emphasis from Jesus as a man to the new image of Christ, who wasdivine, enabled the intellectuals in Greece and Rome to assimilate into their own philosophy what Paul and those who followed him were preaching. (ibid, p. 70)

“…By using material familiar to these congregations, even while reshaping it for his own purposes, Paul was performing as an accomplished rhetor. That would not have been unusual for the times. (Mack Burton, Who Wrote the New Testament? p. 77)

Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus (pbuh), and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, “to win a larger number” of followers; the followers of a new religion “the Pauline Christianity”. (Roshen Enam, Follow Jesus or Follow Paul p. 69)


The following is a list of dying-rising gods.





The above crucified saviors are personifications of the sun, or symbolizing the birth and death of vegetation. The Gospel story of Jesus is plagiarized from the pagan myths.
According to the Bible, Jesus died on a tree

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. (Acts 5:30, 10:39)

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3:13)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

The scholar Arthur Weigall describes that Osiris was crucified upon a tree, like many previous ‘man-gods’, the cross was not unique, its pagan symbol. The Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus was crucified upon a ‘stake’.

The ‘tree story’ was indeed plagiarized from the story of Osiris and Isis.

The Popular and widespread religion of Osiris and Isis exercised considerable influence upon early Christianity, for these two great Egyptian deities, whose worship had passed into Europe were revered in Rome and in several other centres, where Christian communities were growing up. Osiris and Isis, so runs the legend, were brother and sister and also husband and wife; but Osiris was murdered, his coffined body being thrown into the Nile, and shortly afterwards the widowed and exiled Isis gave birth to a son, Horus. The coffin, meanwhile, was washed up on the Syrian coast, and became miraculously lodged in the trunk of a tree, so that Osiris, like other sacrificed gods, could be described as having been.' slain and hanged on a tree.' (The Paganism in Our Christianity, Arthur Weigall, 1928, p118)


Islam has destroyed the false charges against Jesus.

Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (Al-Quran 5:75)

O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight. (Al-Quran 5:15-16)


[1] (Lloyd Graham, Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, p. 361)


Jesus' crucifixion was written about by not only his prophets, but also includes Josephus (37-97AD) a Jewish historian who was ordered by Pontius Pilate to record the crucifixion of Jesus. He also mentions Jesus appearing to the apostles on the 3rd day.

Lucien, a Greek satirist (120-180AD) was a critic of the Christians and Christ; and Tacitus (55-117AD) who was a great historian of Rome both wrote about the Crucifixian of Jesus.
see above.. there is alot of mythology that historians have written about.. what is your point?

Woodrow mentions that the books, or Bible, no longer exists. Well, where did it go? There are actually documents (dead sea scrolls), the Torah (the books of Deuteronomy) that exist and also so many volumes that are still around from before Christ that this argument isn't correct.
You should question indeed what became of them

The Argument of Jeremiah 8:8 Still Standing!
Jeremiah 8:8
8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?​


The ones who actually were with Christ wrote about Christ from firsthand experience.
indeed, wrote as they pleased to conform to the Man/God myth of Greece Zeus/Hercules his son from a mortal woman.. except even there the two characters weren't one in the same!

And even over and above that - if one wants to understand anyone else's religion - that means to read their texts as they have it. Otherwise, reading your own that contains prejudices is not even a criticism that can hold up.
Does that apply to you? Because that is actually where you should start before quoting us from faith freedom and prophet of doom!

It goes back to the thread of whether or not others of different religions think that the Quran was written by Muhammad (well, at least dictated by Muhammed since he couldn't read or write). If other's of other religions don't believe that the Quran is a book inspired by God then the arguments fall short. There is no proof in the Quran that anything was corrupted except the word of someone who contradicted himself quite often, let alone contradicting the Bible.
care to back that up with something other than your own assertion?

Just the fact that Muhammad couldn't read or write should tell you something right there that he did not have first hand knowledge that the Bible was correct or not if he couldn't read it.
The fact that he couldn't read or write and came up with something as magnificent as the Quran which reads in entirety like a poem that none were able to produce a chapter therein like unto it is enough a testament to its divine origin.. can we say the same for the bible, where God accurses the earth he allegedly created because it didn't bare him fruit? or foresaking himself the night after he prayed to himself in the garden of Gesthmane, not only falling short to keep his promise to himself but to all of man-kind, and later abrogating his commandements from the OT through his nemesis Saul/Paul.. why would anyone worship such an ineffectual God, least of which when he has already paid for your sins in a self immolating moment thus giving you a carte blanche to do as you please?

And this is a long explanation of more reasons why I don't see Islam as being close to either Christianity or Judaism. But, I don't see why anyone is upset - just believe in what you will. If you want to believe in the Quran, so be it. I just don't think that anyone should be subjugated under it if they do not believe in it.
Thank God Islam doesn't resemble either.. Now there is a matter of you asking your pals from the OT why they don't believe in your God Jesus?


all the best!
 
Last edited:
Islam only agrees with the 10 Commandments in regards to other Muslims. If Muslims regarded the 10 Commandments to all people there would be no subjugation, or disallowing anyone to vote on the laws that govern subjugation. Because in these laws (Sharia) there is nothing to stop killing, persecution, torture, etc of anyone not a Muslim.

Please give me one example of where any people living under Sharia have persecuted non-Muslims?

Here is something that you might not read in the 10 Commandments... that God did not qualify the 10 Commandments to just include Jews, or just Christians, or just one group.

The 10 commandments are reaffirmed in various Surahs. The Qur'an is for all people in all times. They do apply for all people.

And as for the Trinity, or Resurrection, you would have to get yourselves out of the Quran and read the New Testament, and any other texts that the Christians have. There is no attempt to do that. And that is what I am trying to say - the lack of trying on the part of Muslims to do such a thing.

I think you may be mistaken here. Many of the members here that come across as being anti-Christian actually have very extensive Christian backgrounds, either being former Christian or educated in Christian schools. With the exception of some of our preteen members I find that nearly all of the Muslim members have a good understanding of the NT. although the understanding does differ from those who choose to remain Christian.

No one says that you have to totally understand or agree/believe in it. But, to let others believe as they will without thinking that Islam is the only way to God. Or that Islam should be the law of the land when it should be kept at home and/or in the mosque.

It is called majority rule. If the majority if a nation is secular, the country will be secular. If Christian, Christian, if atheist, atheist. Non of us like majority rule unless we happen to be in the majority

And there have been historians that had no vested interest in the Resurrection, or Crucifixion, and they wrote about it.



Jesus' crucifixion was written about by not only his prophets, but also includes Josephus (37-97AD) a Jewish historian who was ordered by Pontius Pilate to record the crucifixion of Jesus. He also mentions Jesus appearing to the apostles on the 3rd day.

Lucien, a Greek satirist (120-180AD) was a critic of the Christians and Christ; and Tacitus (55-117AD) who was a great historian of Rome both wrote about the Crucifixian of Jesus.

Of course you accept those histories as being true. So while the history of Isa is covered in the Qur'an it is the Islamic view which you would have no interest in.

Woodrow mentions that the books, or Bible, no longer exists. Well, where did it go? There are actually documents (dead sea scrolls), the Torah (the books of Deuteronomy) that exist and also so many volumes that are still around from before Christ that this argument isn't correct.

There is no argument that part of the Tauret probably still exists in the Torah. However, There is no chain of proof to show what exists is complete and without error or misinterpretation. There are fragments of the dead sea scrolls but even Christian and Jewish scholars cast doubt as to them being from the actual scriptures. The scrolls were from the Qumran community a sect seperated from mainstream Judaism and were most likely Essene rather than Jewish. It is very doubtful the scrolls are from an early Torah.

As for the NT and other Christian writings, not a single copy written in Aramaic exists. The earliest existing writings attributed to the NT are written in Greek and written at least 100 years after Christ(as)

The ones who actually were with Christ wrote about Christ from firsthand experience.

the only books in the NT attributed to have been written by people living at the time of Christ are John, Mark, Luke and Matthew. All written in Greek and the earliest writings written Long after the time of Jesus(as)

And even over and above that - if one wants to understand anyone else's religion - that means to read their texts as they have it. Otherwise, reading your own that contains prejudices is not even a criticism that can hold up.

as I stated before I believe nearly every person that has posted on this thread has a Christian background, if not as a Christian, have had a Christian education.

It goes back to the thread of whether or not others of different religions think that the Quran was written by Muhammad (well, at least dictated by Muhammed since he couldn't read or write). If other's of other religions don't believe that the Quran is a book inspired by God then the arguments fall short. There is no proof in the Quran that anything was corrupted except the word of someone who contradicted himself quite often, let alone contradicting the Bible.

Just the fact that Muhammad couldn't read or write should tell you something right there that he did not have first hand knowledge that the Bible was correct or not if he couldn't read it.

True, it is also true that it is not his words that tell us the Bible fell into error.

And this is a long explanation of more reasons why I don't see Islam as being close to either Christianity or Judaism. But, I don't see why anyone is upset - just believe in what you will. If you want to believe in the Quran, so be it. I just don't think that anyone should be subjugated under it if they do not believe in it.

It is not close to either, the question is which is it closest too---ie least distant from

I am not close to either Austin, Texas or Hartford, Ct, but I am closest to Austin.
 
Woodrow, thanks for the readings - I promise I won't talk about predestination in the same way again. I don't know if you gave me all of what you intended, but it is a bit more clear now.
 
Woodrow, thanks for the readings - I promise I won't talk about predestination in the same way again. I don't know if you gave me all of what you intended, but it is a bit more clear now.

Hopefully I did not say anything to confuse you or write anything contrary to the teachings of Islam. My opinion is my opinion and as such may be in error. astagfirullah
 
Please give me one example of where any people living under Sharia have persecuted non-Muslims?

Are you serious? It goes on in a daily basis. I will give you a few articles for this year only.

Thailand

Iraq

nuns in somalia

800 families have fled Mosul

The list is neverending.

The 10 commandments are reaffirmed in various Surahs. The Qur'an is for all people in all times. They do apply for all people.



I think you may be mistaken here. Many of the members here that come across as being anti-Christian actually have very extensive Christian backgrounds, either being former Christian or educated in Christian schools. With the exception of some of our preteen members I find that nearly all of the Muslim members have a good understanding of the NT. although the understanding does differ from those who choose to remain Christian.



It is called majority rule. If the majority if a nation is secular, the country will be secular. If Christian, Christian, if atheist, atheist. Non of us like majority rule unless we happen to be in the majority



Of course you accept those histories as being true. So while the history of Isa is covered in the Qur'an it is the Islamic view which you would have no interest in.

Please provide the surahs that reaffirm the 10 Commandments. I do not get that at all from the Quran.

The story of Isa in the Quran is not the same as Jesus in the Bible. So, there is the reasoning why Muslims should not read any further - even though the Quran says to do so (10:94). From my experiences Muslims have brought Christianity into Islam, but have their own version which isn't even accurate.

I don't know why they do this because no one has proven the Bible is corrupted.

As for any of the other Bible stories to be in a certain order is not really the issue - it is the stories themselves that have errors in them in the Quran. And the example of Isa is a good example. But other examples are Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, etc. There are similarities but there are many contradictions.

There is no argument that part of the Tauret probably still exists in the Torah. However, There is no chain of proof to show what exists is complete and without error or misinterpretation. There are fragments of the dead sea scrolls but even Christian and Jewish scholars cast doubt as to them being from the actual scriptures. The scrolls were from the Qumran community a sect seperated from mainstream Judaism and were most likely Essene rather than Jewish. It is very doubtful the scrolls are from an early Torah.

As for the NT and other Christian writings, not a single copy written in Aramaic exists. The earliest existing writings attributed to the NT are written in Greek and written at least 100 years after Christ(as)

There are thousands of Bibles, ranging from fragments to the entire texts, that have been discovered around this world. There is just no proof of the Bible being corrupted since these are the same as the Bible we see today.

I am sorry, but if there is a Bible that Muhammad found that was different - maybe the Muslims should provide that as proof that the Bible of today is corrupted.

And as for the Apostles writing their gospels 100 years after Christ is just not true. They did not live that long. They were the ones who lived with Jesus, day in and day out, and recorded very similar accounts of his life.

These copies of the Bible are of different languages and were in different countries. How did the ones who corrupted the Bible prevail over the entire world? Another sura that mentions the Bible being accurate is 2:136, besides the one I mentioned previously.

The dead sea scrolls were written around 200 BC - 68 AD and are virtually identical to prove that the OT is accurate. The NT was approved by the Church around 400 AD and that is several centuries before Muhammad and they are still intact as those that were approved.

And I mentioned the contradictions in the Quran. It says it is to be believed, the 'truth from the Lord' and then it says it cannot be trusted.

It is not close to either, the question is which is it closest too---ie least distant from

I am not close to either Austin, Texas or Hartford, Ct, but I am closest to Austin.


Neither. Just because some stories that have the same names as the Bible characters are in the Quran doesn't make it close to either due to the message of the Quran which is contradictory, not only to the Bible but within the Quran itself.

Now, there is an indication that Muhammad might have taken some things from the various Christian sects that were considered heretical. Also, from some of the rites of Islam it shows that some things were taken from the pagans of the area. The Kabaa and the Black stone, being a few of those things. No one else has anything resembling this. Muhammad broke the statue of Allah on this Kabaa and got rid of the other gods and goddesses (such as the three daughters mentioned in the Quran).

Muhammad discarded the part about the Trinity and the Resurrection because he didn't understand them. And he knew that the tribal mentality of the Arabs couldn't believe in a complicated theology.

So, he took parts of all of these things - Judaism, Christianity and the pagan religion of his time. And then he changed it all and this is what we read in the Quran.


Now, the Hadiths are a different story as far as accuracy. And this is what many Sharia laws are based on. The hadiths were basically in the memories of people who were waging Jihad and someone thought that it might be a good idea to get those on paper since the Jihadists get killed. And they weren't written for a few centuries after Muhammad died.
 
Are you serious? It goes on in a daily basis. I will give you a few articles for this year only.

Thailand

Iraq

nuns in somalia

800 families have fled Mosul

The list is neverending.

The only thing is none of those countries are und Sharia Law. True they say they are, but that is not Sharia.



Please provide the surahs that reaffirm the 10 Commandments. I do not get that at all from the Quran.

They are not written out in a single Surah, I will have to hunt down the seperate ayyats each is mentioned in. Or more specifically worded in as the wording is slightly different from Genesis.

It is late and has been a long day. I will get back to this tomorrow. In the mean time, have a good night. 12:14 am here and I turned into a pumpkin at midnight
 
They are not written out in a single Surah, I will have to hunt down the seperate ayyats each is mentioned in. Or more specifically worded in as the wording is slightly different from Genesis.

It is late and has been a long day. I will get back to this tomorrow. In the mean time, have a good night. 12:14 am here and I turned into a pumpkin at midnight
:sl:
It has all been already covered on the previous page, further asserted by rabbinic decree that it is only the lives of Jews that matter not the gentiles as a direct contradiction of what he assumes to be laws for all mankind (not the case in Islam) all he'd actually have to do is read.. and well the rest of us know to whom Jesus the man was actually sent to lead aright..


parallel2-1.gif
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


further I am so curious what he thinks of this amongst others?


Top Evangelist in Egypt protesting as nuns leave the misery of the church to become Muslim demanding them be released to the church!
plus an endless campaign against Islam to cause civil upheaval in almost every middle eastern country that has a christian minority ergo random assassinations.
Shouldn't angst seethe over the dark medieval events of modern day Christianity or does a double blinded hypocrisy nullify itself?

:w:


title_main_shadow.gif

وفاء قسطنطين اعتنقت الإسلام بعد مشاهدتها برنامج تلفزيوني

البابا شنوده يعتكف في دير الإنبا بيشوي احتجاجا على "خطف" المسيحيات

track_content_views.php

pix_hi_fade.gif


تصلي في الخفاء
لست مراهقة ساذجة
pix_low_fade.gif

large_32812_8617.jpg


القاهرة - محمد حمدي
أضاف البابا شنودة الثالث بطريرك الأقباط الأرثوذكس بعدا جديدا للأزمة في أوساط الأقباط المصريين عقب الأنباء التي ترددت عن اختفاء زوجة أحد القساوسة في مدينة أبو المطامير بمحافظة البحيرة شمال غرب العاصمة المصرية بعد إشهار إسلامها، حيث ذهب الباب للاعتكاف في دير الإنبا بيشوي بوادي النطرون وألغى عظته الأسبوعية التي يلقيها مساء كل أربعاء في كاتدرائية الأقباط الأرثوذكس في ضاحية العباسية شرق القاهرة في إشارة على عدم رضاه عن الأوضاع القائمة.

ويعتبر لجوء البابا شنودة إلى الاعتكاف في دير الإنبا بيشوي تعبيرا عن الاحتجاج على وضع ما، وهو أسلوب يلجأ إليه البابا شنودة الثالث حينما تتوتر علاقاته مع الدولة.
وكان موقع قبطي على الإنترنت قد ذكر أن فتاة مسيحية تدعى نورا عبد الله فهيم من مدينة الفرافرة في محافظة الوادي الجديد التي تبعد عن القاهرة حوالي 500 كم، قد اختفت أيضا وأشار الموقع إلى أن نورا تعمل في مستشفى الفرافرة بنفس المحافظة وهي خريجة معهد صحي أسيوط ويعيش والدها في قرية غرب الموهوب مركز الداخلة وهي مقيمة بالمستشفى التي تعمل فيه تحت التدريب.
وقد شجعها شاب مسلم يعمل عامل بنفس المستشفى اسمه تامر عبد الحكيم مقيم بقرية الكفاح مركز الفرافرة محافظة الوادي الجديد وهو أصلا من دكرنس على الاختفاء معه من حوالي شهر تقريبا وقد ترددت الأخبار بأنه قد تزوجها زواجا عرفيا، ولكن لم يتردد أنها أشهرت إسلامها حتى الآن وقد أبلغ والدها الجهات الأمنية والسياسية بالمحافظة.
وأشار الموقع إلى أن القمص بيشوي المحرقي المسؤول عن الخدمة بالوادي الجديد قد أبلغ كل الجهات التي تعاطفت مع الموقف بكل اهتمام ولكن حتى الآن لم يعثر عليها ولم تعد هي أو الشاب إلى عملهما لحد الآن، وقد أبلغ والدها مدير النيابة العامة متهما الشاب بتحريضها على الهروب وأمرت النيابة بضبطه.
من جانب آخرنجحت السلطات المصرية مؤخرا في عقد لقاء بين السيدة وفاء قسطنطين وخمسة من مطارنة الكنيسة المصرية لمناقشتها حول ما أعلن عن اعتناقها الإسلام، وذلك في محاولة منها لاحتواء الأزمة المثارة في مصر، بعد أن سرت شائعات فحواها أن وفاء اختطفت وأجبرت على اعتناق الإسلام.
وبحسب تصريحات لصحيفة "الشرق الأوسط"، فإن قسطنطين بدأت علاقتها بالإسلام منذ حوالي عامين، عندما شاهدت أحد البرامج التلفزيونية بالصدفة وكان يقدم شرحاً وتفسيرا لإحدى الآيات القرآنية، "فاكتشفت أن القرآن يتحدث بلغة العلم الحديث".
ولأنها درست العلوم والزراعة، كما تذكر، فقد تأنت وفاء في تقديرها للموقف وطلبت من أحد زملائها المسلمين الذي "تثق فيه" أن يمدها بكتب عن الإسلام وتفسيره، "فاكتشفت أن الإسلام ليس كما عرفت دين عنف وتكفير للآخر، فقررت اعتناقه من دون أن يدرك أحد ذلك أويعرف سرها أحد، إلى أن حدثت التطورات الأخيرة".
وقد تسبب اعتناق المهندسة وفاء قسطنطين الإسلام بـ"ثورة غضب" بين بعض أوساط المجتمع القبطي، وذلك رغم تكذيب وزارة الداخلية المصرية للأخبار التي أفادت بـ"خطف وفاء"، وتأكيدها أن السيدة البالغة من العمر 46 عاما أسلمت بكامل إرادتها، وتركت بيتها في مدينة أبوالمطامير في محافظة البحيرة في دلتا مصر 146 كيلومترا شمال القاهرة من دون أي ضغوط خارجية.
تجدر الإشارة إلى أن وفاء قسطنطين مسيحية المولد والمنشأ، ولدت في عام 1959، في محافظة المنوفية بدلتا مصر لأسرة مسيحية، تملك المال والسمعة الطيبة، عاشت في محافظة المنوفية 23 عاما مع عائلتها قبل أن تنتقل إلى مدينة أبوالمطامير عقب زواجها. ملامحها هادئة وهي بيضاء مشربة بحمرة، وتحرص الآن على ارتداء الحجاب الذي يغطي شعرها.

تصلي في الخفاء
وفي مطلع الثمانينات حصلت على إجازة جامعية في الهندسة الزراعية، ثم تزوجت من أحد القساوسة، وأنجبت منه ابنا هوالآن مهندس وابنة تدرس في كلية العلوم جامعة الإسكندرية، وحينما شاهدت بالمصادفة برنامجا تلفزيونيا في التلفزيون المصري تناول فيه أحد المتحدثين تفسيرا للقرآن بشكل مبسط، فاكتشفت أن القرآن الذي نزل على محمد منذ ما يزيد على 1400 عام تحدث بلغة بسيطة يفهمها الجميع.. فبدأت تركز فيما تسمع حتى نهاية البرنامج التلفزيوني، وهي تشعر بشيء غامض ينبض به قلبها، وكأن صدرها ينشرح ـ كما تقول ـ لشيء مجهول لا تعي ماهية طبيعته.. ولأنها درست العلوم الزراعية اكتشفت أن الإسلام ليس كما عرفت دين عنف وتكفير للآخر، ووجدت فيه إجابات عن أسئلة كانت تشغل تفكيرها منذ سنوات، وكلما قرأت وتعلمت، أدركت سلامة موقفها وصحته، فزاد تمسكها بالإسلام الذي اعتنقته دون أن يدرك أحد ذلك، أويعرف سرها أحد، فكانت تصلي في غياب أسرتها أوفي حجرتها بعيدا عن أعينهم بعد أن تغلق عليها الباب بالمفتاح.
وقد صامت شهر رمضان قبل الماضي والماضي، مبررة امتناعها عن الطعام بألم حاد ينتابها بين الحين والآخر في معدتها، إلا أن وفاء لم تدرك أن عين ابنتها كانت تشعر التغيير الذي ألم بوالدتها، حتى كان يوم استمعت فيه الابنة لمحادثة هاتفية بين وفاء وزميلها المسلم الذي كانت تطلب منه أحد الكتب الدينية، وكان ذلك منذ عام.
وعن ذلك اليوم، ذكرت وفاء لصحيفة الشرق الأوسط أنها "تعجبت من عدم خوفي من اكتشاف ابنتي لأمر إسلامي ووجدتني أهدئها وأحدثها عن الإسلام لأقنعها به، ولكنها لم تقتنع، فطلبت منها عدم كشف سري فوافقت، واستمر الحال بي إلى أن شعرت قبل رمضان الماضي بأنني لا أستطيع أن أحيا طيلة حياتي بهذا الأسلوب، وخاصة مع زوج غير مسلم، فصارحت زميلي بما يعتمل في داخلي، فوعدني بتدبر الأمر، وبالفعل نجح في أن يجد لي مكانا خارج مدينتي لدى إحدى الأسر المسلمة في القاهرة، وكان من المقرر أن أترك البيت قبل رمضان، وآتي للقاهرة لإشهار إسلامي، إلا أن ابنتي كانت تضيّق عليّ رقابتها بعد أن شعرت بما أنوي فعله، فلم أفلح في ترك المنزل قبل رمضان".

لست مراهقة ساذجة
وتكمل وفاء قصتها بأنها نجحت في إقناع أسرتها منذ ثلاثة أسابيع في الذهاب إلى الإسكندرية (200 كيلومتر شمال القاهرة) لقضاء عدة أيام في شقتهم التي يملكونها هناك.. كان ذلك يوم جمعة، وبالفعل قضت ليلتها في الإسكندرية، وفي صباح السبت حضر لها زميلها الذي اصطحبها إلى القاهرة دون علم أحد وتوجه بها إلى تلك الأسرة المسلمة التي كان قد اتفق معها على استضافة وفاء.
ورحبت الأسرة بوفاء وأحاطتها بالحنان، خاصة عندما بكت مع اقتراب عودة زميلها إلى مدينتهما، متذكرة ابنها وابنتها.. فما كان من رب العائلة المضيفة لها، إلا أن أخبرها أنها بإمكانها العودة إن أرادت، فردت عليه مؤكدة أنها اختارت طريقها الجديد رغم شوقها الكبير لأولادها.
وقد اصطحب رب الأسرة وفاء إلى قسم الشرطة لإثبات حالها وسماع أقوالها في أنها جاءت بمحض إرادتها، بعدها ذهبت إلى مباحث أمن الدولة التي استمعت لها وسألتها عما إذا كانت قد تعرضت لأي ضغوط لإجبارها على الإسلام، فنفت ذلك.. ثم سألوها إذا كانت ترغب في العودة لأبنائها وعائلتها فأكدت لهم عدم ندمها على اختيارها.
عندئذ سألوها إذا كانت تريد الانتقال إلى بيت آخر أومكان إقامة غير الذي تقيم فيه، فأكدت لهم راحتها مع تلك الأسرة المسلمة التي تحيطها بكل رعاية، وخرجت وفاء دون أن تعلم أن هناك نارا مشتعلة بدأت بشائعات في مدينتها، بأن المسلمين خطفوها ليجبروها على الإسلام.
وتتعجب وفاء قائلة "لم أتخيل يوما أن تحتل أخباري قنوات الأخبار والصحافة العالمية، وأن تقوم وتندلع المظاهرات بسببي.. ولكن أقول لأي مسيحي إنني اتخذت قراري بمحض إرادتي، دون أي ضغوط.. لقد عرفت طريقي.. وانشرح قلبي على مدى عامين.. كما أنني لست فتاة مراهقة أوغير ناضجة من الممكن التأثير عليّ.
 
Last edited:
Islam only agrees with the 10 Commandments in regards to other Muslims. If Muslims regarded the 10 Commandments to all people there would be no subjugation, or disallowing anyone to vote on the laws that govern subjugation. Because in these laws (Sharia) there is nothing to stop killing, persecution, torture, etc of anyone not a Muslim.

Islamic Shariah is indeed intended for all of mankind! it is Allah's Laws that man is subjected to, NOT man's. Islam does not allow or promote persecution OR torture.


Here is something that you might not read in the 10 Commandments... that God did not qualify the 10 Commandments to just include Jews, or just Christians, or just one group.

Moses gave the Laws to the HEBREWS, NOT the Jews. after being whittled down to just 3 tribes, the people of the tribe of Judah became known as Jews. Jews believe that their "Shariah is for them and them ONLY. the believe that the rest of Mankind needs to follow the 7 Noahidic Laws. Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessings be on the both of them, was sent to the "Lost Sheep of Israel," THAT would include ALL 13 Tribes! it would also show the confusion on what "Gentiles" the Message was intended for. as for Christians, they DO NOT follow the 10 Commandments! maybe you could persuade them too!?

And as for the Trinity, or Resurrection, you would have to get yourselves out of the Quran and read the New Testament, and any other texts that the Christians have. There is no attempt to do that. And that is what I am trying to say - the lack of trying on the part of Muslims to do such a thing.

are we to try to understand all of the fiction in the world? and i've read MANY, MANY translations of the "New Testament," AND i've also studied with different denominations. as for other Muslims, there is simply no need for them to understand all of the specifics of how the "Christians" have gone astray.

No one says that you have to totally understand or agree/believe in it. But, to let others believe as they will without thinking that Islam is the only way to God. Or that Islam should be the law of the land when it should be kept at home and/or in the mosque.

Actually, Islam IS the ONLY correct way to the One True God!
And there have been historians that had no vested interest in the Resurrection, or Crucifixion, and they wrote about it.

propagating fiction does not make it real. look at the Warren Commission!

Jesus' crucifixion was written about by not only his prophets, but also includes Josephus (37-97AD) a Jewish historian who was ordered by Pontius Pilate to record the crucifixion of Jesus. He also mentions Jesus appearing to the apostles on the 3rd day.

the insert into Josephus about Jesus is not authentic. besides, he was born too late to be a witness.

Lucien, a Greek satirist (120-180AD) was a critic of the Christians and Christ; and Tacitus (55-117AD) who was a great historian of Rome both wrote about the Crucifixian of Jesus.

now you are at 90 years after!

Woodrow mentions that the books, or Bible, no longer exists. Well, where did it go? There are actually documents (dead sea scrolls), the Torah (the books of Deuteronomy) that exist and also so many volumes that are still around from before Christ that this argument isn't correct.

many books from different political factions had their works included in the Torah, which are NOT known as the "Books of Deuteronomy!" there IS what is known as a "Dueteronomistic History" accepted by investigators into the origins of the Bible. it would include: Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, I & II Samuel and I & II Kings. the Books were all written/ redacted/edited/combined by Baruch ben Neriyah who was the scribe for Jeremiah, who is the author of most of it.

The ones who actually were with Christ wrote about Christ from firsthand experience.
there is no conclusive proof of that.

And even over and above that - if one wants to understand anyone else's religion - that means to read their texts as they have it. Otherwise, reading your own that contains prejudices is not even a criticism that can hold up.

using the Qur'an as guidance IS the correct methodology for worshiping the One True God!

It goes back to the thread of whether or not others of different religions think that the Quran was written by Muhammad (well, at least dictated by Muhammed since he couldn't read or write). If other's of other religions don't believe that the Quran is a book inspired by God then the arguments fall short. There is no proof in the Quran that anything was corrupted except the word of someone who contradicted himself quite often, let alone contradicting the Bible.

The Qur'an does not rely on other 'books' for validation. what is in the Qur'an VALIDATES what is in other books!

Just the fact that Muhammad couldn't read or write should tell you something right there that he did not have first hand knowledge that the Bible was correct or not if he couldn't read it.

i can prove in 1 paragraph the the Torah, as it is today, was NOT written by Moses! i can do this without using the qur'an!

And this is a long explanation of more reasons why I don't see Islam as being close to either Christianity or Judaism. But, I don't see why anyone is upset - just believe in what you will. If you want to believe in the Quran, so be it. I just don't think that anyone should be subjugated under it if they do not believe in it.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

it is amusing that you called the Torah, Deuteronomy! open the Book of Deuteronomy, and let's read the VERY FIRST VERSE, shall we?
These are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel, on the other side of the Jordan, concerning the Arabah, opposite the Sea of Reeds, between Paran and Tophei, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Di-zahab...
that's it i'm done! Moses was NEVER in the Holy Land on the West side of the Jordan, he, never minding speaking of himself in the 3rd person, would have NEVER had the perspective that he would have needed to write, "on the other side of the Jordan." this HAD to be inserted AFTER Moses died!


that translation is The Stone Edition [of] The Stone Chumash The Torah, Halftaros and Five Megillos With A Commentary Anthologized From The Rabbinic Writings ArtScroll Series Published by Mesorah Publications, ltd 11th Edition Fifth Impression August 2003 by Rabbi Nosson Scherman.

regarding what the Jews consider necessary for no-Jews:

Judaism teaches about a Divine Mandate known as the Seven Noahide Laws, which are G-d's universal laws for all mankind as taught to Moses and recorded in the Torah.1

The Askmoses Answer:

Every creation, and certainly every person, was created by G-d for a specific purpose. Aside for every person’s unique, personal mission, there are general rules by which every person must abide in order to fulfill the general purpose of his individudal creation; namely, to establish fertile grounds (where G-dliness can be revealed) and create a stable environment (where G-d can dwell).

For this purpose G-d gave humanity seven universal laws; basic laws which ensure that the world remains a civilized society, and a society that does not deny its Creator. It is therefore important that all these laws be observed as Divine mandates, not just as "ethical ideas".

Every creation, and certainly every person, was created by G-d for a specific purpose.

Six of these laws were commanded to Adam and Eve, and the seventh one, the prohibition against eating a limb which was severed from a live animal, was given to Noah2 (as this law was unnecessary from Creation until after the Flood when all humankind was vegetarian).3

These seven laws are called the “Seven Noahide Laws,” for they are mandatory for all descendants of Noah, the progenitor of modern humanity.

Judaism does not encourage non-Jews to convert to Judaism, for we believe that a non-Jew who follows his laws can lead a fulfilling spiritual life. In fact, a non-Jew who studies and observes the Noahide Commandments is equal to the High Priest who enters the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur.4

These are the Seven Laws:

1. Not to worship idols.
2. Not to blaspheme.
3. Not to murder.
4. Not to steal.
5. Not to be involved in illicit sexual behavior (adultery, incest, homosexuality, etc.).
6. Not to eat the limb of a living creature [not to be cruel to animals].
Islam follow these as well, while Christian, preferring to hide behind secularization, DO NOT!

source:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/541,387/What-are-the-Mitzvahs-for-non-Jews.html

regarding Islam, as i've written before:

Here's assessment of Ishmael's righteousness:

Was Ishmael righteous?

Most of us remember Ishmael in Genesis by the comment, he shall be “a wild-ass of a man” and some consider him to be somehow illegitimate.

Let us clear up these misconceptions. For sources we’ll use The Stone Edition Chumash The Torah, Haftaros and Five Megillos with A Commentary Anthologized From The Rabbinic Writings by Mesorah Publishing as well as the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd, hereafter referred to as the Chumash or Bereishsis/ Genesis respectively.


From the Chumash we read 16:3, So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maidservant – after 10 years of Abram’s dwelling in the Land of Canaan – and gave her to Abram her husband, to him as a wife. He consorted with Hagar and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was lowered in her esteem.

16 The Birth of Ishmael. Despite their spiritual riches and Godly assurances, Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.


Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh. After seeing the miracles that were brought on Sarah’s behalf when she was abducted and taken to his palace, he gave her to Hagar, saying, “Better that she be a servant in their house, than a princess in someone else’s.” So it was that Hagar, an Egyptian princess, became Abraham’s wife and bore him Ishmael.

In the notes to verse 4 – Her mistress was lowered. Hagar brazenly boasted to the ladies, “Since so many years have passed without Sarai having children, she cannot be as righteous as she seems. But I conceived immediately!” (Rashi). Now that Hagar had assured Abraham’s posterity, she no longer felt subservient to Sarah (Radak).


A few notes about Sarah and Hagar from verses 6 – 8:
Verse 6 “your maidservant is in your hand; do to her as you see fit.” To me she is a wife; and I have no right to treat her unkindly. But to you she is a servant; if she mistreats you, do what you feel is right. (Radak; Haamek Davar). Sarah’s intent was not malicious, but to force Hagar to cease from her insulting demeanor. But instead of acknowledging Sarah’s superior position, Hagar fled (Arbarbanel; Sforno).

Rabbi Aryeh Levin noted that it is congruous to believe that a woman as righteous as Sarah would persecute another human being out of personal pique. Rather, Sarah treated Hagar as she always had, but in the light of Hagar’s newly inflated self-image, she took it as persecution.


We’ll leave the issue of Hagar for the moment except to pause to list the prophecies about Ishmael AT THIS TIME:

V10 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they will not be counted for abundance.”
V 11 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; his name shall be Ishmael, for Hashem has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-ass of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell.”
The prophecy in verse 10 sounds VERY familiar to ones about Abraham’s’ descendants, while verse 11 gives us our other prophecy. We will return to Hagar later, Insha’ Allah.


Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).


Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!


I got lazy and copied this from the Jewish Publication Society, the first half of Genesis chapter 25:

1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.

2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah

3 And Jokshan begot Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4 And the sons of Midian: Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts; and he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, a hundred threescore and fifteen years

8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

9 And Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

10 the field which Abraham purchased of the children of Heth; there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed Isaac his son; and Isaac dwelt by Beer-lahai-roi.

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham.

13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

14 and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa;

15 Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem;

16 these are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations

17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Asshur: over against all his brethren he did settle.


Let’s begin with the part dealing with Ishmael first. We see in verse 9 that both Isaac and Ishmael buried their Abraham, what does this tell us? Well, for one, we can confirm that there was NEVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was Abraham’s firstborn, NOR was there EVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was to Abraham “your son, your only son”. Those terms could ONLY be used to describe Ishmael, Abraham’s firstborn son. But we are not here to speculate who changed THAT story!

In Bereishsis/ Genesis, the notes for verse 17. Ishmael’s age is given because it assists in calculations with respect to [dating the various events which occurred during the life of] Jacob (Rashi [Yevamos 64a]) [and this is footnoted, which reads in part: 1 Rashi goes on to explain that we calculate from Ishmael’s age at his death that Jacob attended the Academy of Eber for fourteen years from the time he left his fathers’ house to the time he arrived at Laban’s house (as explained in Megillah 17a); to which we have the sub footnote: [Briefly, according to the data cited in Megillah 17a, when Jacob stood before Pharaoh he should have been 116 years old, yet Jacob himself gave his age as 130(Gen. 47:9). The discrepancy is explained by the fact that he spent fourteen years in the Academy of Eber after leaving his fathers’ house.]

According to Ramban [to this verse but cited in v12] Ishmael’s age is noted here because he repented and the age of the righteous is generally stated. Rashbam holds that it is recorded as a mark of honor for Abraham. Since the torah had mentioned Abraham’s age at Ishmael’s birth, and Ishmael’s age when he underwent circumcision. It now concludes by mentioning his lifespan. Further on we read Rashi comments that…is only mentioned in the case of righteous people [such as Ishmael, since he repented…]…
According to R’ Bachya it [the phrase “and was gathered unto his people”] is based the use in our verse of both expired and died – which refer to the death only of the righteous – and the Sages said that Ishmael repented of his evil ways.


So whatever ill will the Jews may harbor against Ishmael [that they say he had “evil” ways], he is cleared of any error and claimed by JEWISH Sages to be “of the righteous!” note the similarity in regards to Abraham in verse 8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. Compared to of Ishmael in verse 17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Also, consider that we saw in the notes to Genesis 16 “that Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.” This tells us that it was the intent of Abraham and Sarah to raise Ishmael “so that he would be considered her adopted child!” it stands within reason but our case doesn’t rely solely on it, that in their job of “parenting” Ishmael [up until the birth of Isaac] that they would have sent him to the “Academy of Eber in Jerusalem” for proper training in the “mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind.” So from Ishmael's beginning and again at the end of his life we can put him in the category of the “sons” of Eber, and thus an Hebrew.


We will take another look at Hagar, just in case any see her as a reason to disqualify Ishmael as one of the “righteous.” Let’s look again at 25:1, And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
The notes say that there is a Hebrew word in the phrase which means “again” which would literally mean: And Abraham again took a wife, which is interpreted by the Sages to intimate the Abraham remarried to before: Hagar.

Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).
In 21:14 Rashi comments that Hagar reverted to the idolatry of her father’s house. How then does he now call her action “beautiful as incense?” – Rather, when she was expelled from Abraham’s household she felt forsaken even by his God and she intended to revert to her idolatrous ways. But when the miracle occurred at the well, she repented (Gur Aryeh).


The Zohar similarly comments that although she had relapsed into her ancestral idolatry, she later repented and changed her name, after which Abraham sent for and married her. From this we see that a change of name males atonement for guilt, for she made this change of name symbolic of her change of behavior.
[Immediately following this there is a note discussing some Hebrew phraseology which…denotes that Keturah was righteous and fit for Abraham.]

Although Hagar/Keturah was a first generation Egyptian and hence forbidden in marriage [see Deut.32: 9], nevertheless, since his first marriage to her was with God’s sanction, she remained permissible to him for remarriage as well. Furthermore, the Midrash [Bereishis Rabbah 60:4] specifically states that Abraham married Keturah/Hagar by Divine Command (Tur).
Targum Yonasan renders the verse: and Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah; she is Hagar who had been bound to him…from the beginning.

So we here additionally that if there were any ill feelings on the part of the Jews for Hagar, regardless of whether or not she is Keturah, the Jewish sources claim that not only was Hagar “permissible” for Abraham, but they actually speak quite highly of her considering the circumstances. Based on that I would reject any effort to disqualify Ishmael as a “son of Eber” based upon anything said about him or his mother, Hagar.

The actual words of Dueteronomy require some "discussion" in order to explain some of the phrases which seem out of place, but that might actually help us with identifying that "prophet." THAT is the next step, Insha' Allah
.

let's reread this part:

Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!

i'm just pointing out, that according to Jewish sources, Islam IS Prophesied IN their "Books!" Islam was promised to Abraham! we CAN deduce from this that there would be a Prophet sent to Ishmael to accomplish this! THAT Prophet is Muhammad ibn Abdullah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam! the "Book" that he was given STILL EXISTS! Alhumdulillah! and it is the Noble Quran!

now, don't talk to me about "only using the Qur'an," which by the way, is ALL that is needed! BUT, let's ask the Jews about a trinity, eh?


:w:
 
This is actually interesting. Generally there are more cultural similarities than the religious similarities. If religions were similar, why would anybody need to establish new religions?
 
There is no establishment of 'New religions' as far as Abrahamic faith is concerned, there is however reinforcing the laws lost through the exegesis of creative men!
starting with God being one, then three as is the case with Christianity then back to one with islam!

all the best
 
Where is Christianity and the triple god prophecized in the OT?
 
Where is Islam prophesicised in the Holy Bible?

:blind::blind::blind::blind::blind::blind::blind:

it's about 3 posts back!

Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter [Bereishis/Genesis]17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”


Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira!


But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!

now, in case you can't see that:

i'm just pointing out, that according to Jewish sources, Islam IS Prophesied IN their "Books!" where? In chapter Bereishis/Genesis 17 vv18-20! Islam was promised to Abraham [in the year 2047 from Creation, when he was ninety-nine]! we CAN deduce from this that there would be a Prophet sent to Ishmael to accomplish this! THAT Prophet is Muhammad ibn Abdullah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam! the "Book" that he was given STILL EXISTS! Alhumdulillah! and it is the Noble Quran!
 
I have always loved how God blesses the descendants of both Isaac and Ishmael.
God's compassion for Ishmael and his mother Hagar is truly awesome. :statisfie

However, although the above verses point to God blessing the descendants of Ishmael as 'a nation' I am not sure that this really prophesies Islam, or indeed that Islam is the 'true religion'. :?
 
However, although the above verses point to God blessing the descendants of Ishmael as 'a nation' I am not sure that this really prophesies Islam, or indeed that Islam is the 'true religion'. :?

You are free to believe as you choose to believe!

all the best
 
Gossamer Skye - If you read the Old Testament you would see that the whole thing leads up to Jesus.

I find it interesting that much of the Quran is about Jesus too.

You see Gossamer skye Jesus had a plan to fulfill first. GOD always has a plan, trust me it is best to follow the plan. Do you believe that Allah has a plan for you?

Have you ever read the Holy Bible?

Why did Jesus go on to say:
Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
 
Gossamer Skye - If you read the Old Testament you would see that the whole thing leads up to Jesus.
Interesting.. then why do the Jews whom I assume are much more familiar with the OT than you choose to remain Jews?
I find it interesting that much of the Quran is about Jesus too.
He is mentioned 20 times indeed, he was special but it doesn't make him God or supersede other messengers, if anyone would have had the glory it would be Abraham he is mentioned by name 68 times in the Quran

You see Gossamer skye Jesus had a plan to fulfill first.
oh and what was that? to self-immolate?

GOD always has a plan, trust me it is best to follow the plan.
Seems like you are following Paul's plan!


Do you believe that Allah has a plan for you?
My affairs are of no concern to you!
Have you ever read the Holy Bible?
When I graduated from the catholic high school my grade in their religion class was 96% -- Top ten on my class, so yeah I have read it, perhaps the other girls would have benefited too considering how many of them took leave of absence for adultery and to bare children out of wedlock. (very Jesus like indeed)

Why did Jesus go on to say:
Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I doubt very much that Jesus said unless he enjoyed contradicting himself, such as with this

parallel2-1.gif
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'


Got to love the bible ey? can't get two paragraphs to be consistent!


all the best
 
Well according to what I have heard, they believe non-Jews can go to heaven, and therefore converting to Judaism is discouraged.



That makes no sense at all. There obviously must be a religion that is the closest to Islam in beliefs.

And whoever seeks a Way of life other than submission and surrender to Allah's Will (Islam), it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

[Noble Quran 3:85]
 
I have always loved how God blesses the descendants of both Isaac and Ishmael.
God's compassion for Ishmael and his mother Hagar is truly awesome. :statisfie

oh really, according to Xians, god had Abraham dump his wife and child in the desert. that's awesome love to you?

However, although the above verses point to God blessing the descendants of Ishmael as 'a nation' I am not sure that this really prophesies Islam,

so even with the big fonts, you missed a "GREAT NATION?" seems to be a symptom peculiar to Xians...

or indeed that Islam is the 'true religion'. :?

one needs AT LEAST 3 gods for a proper religion, eh?

thank you so much for giving us your "opinion" on the matter! :rollseyes

as i pointed the 1st time, which apparently no Xians could read:

i'm just pointing out, that according to Jewish sources, Islam IS Prophesied IN their "Books!" Islam was promised to Abraham! we CAN deduce from this that there would be a Prophet sent to Ishmael to accomplish this! THAT Prophet is Muhammad ibn Abdullah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam! the "Book" that he was given STILL EXISTS! Alhumdulillah! and it is the Noble Quran!

but for those who just prefer to be difficult:

now, don't talk to me about "only using the Qur'an," which by the way, is ALL that is needed! BUT, let's ask the Jews about a trinity, eh?

it was a JEWISH translation along with JEWISH commentary! do you know of any JEWS who believe in a trinity?

:w:
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top