Is this really the way GOD commands death?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Follower
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 119
  • Views Views 19K
Status
Not open for further replies.
muslimapoclyptic - Thank you. you do understand what I am saying. I don't believe that GOD would not be specific and I have to think that those verses were lost at some time- the battle when so many Muslims were killed, or when Uthmann burned the other versions of the Qurans.

There are no verses missing, and there were no other versions of the Qur'an.

What is "specific" is relative to the situation, and is very subjective.

The problem with:
5:32:
On that account, We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Literal:
Because of that, We wrote/decreed on Israel's sons and daughters, that who killed a self without a self, or corruption in the earth/Planet Earth, so as if he killed the people all/all together , and who revived it, so as if he revived the people all/all together, and Our messengers had come to them with the evidences, then that many from them, after that in the earth/Planet Earth spoilers/wasters (E) .

It is directed towards the Children of Israel and not Muslims. It lead right into what the Muslim is allowed to do if smeone is against Islam:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Literal:
But reward those who embattle/fight God and His messenger, and they strive/endeavor in the earth/Planet Earth corruption/disorder, that they be killed or they be crucified , or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposites, or they be expelled/exiled from the land, that for them shame/scandal/disgrace in the present world, and for them in the end a great torture.

Actually, 5:33 is clearly talking about those who fight against Allah and His Messenger and strive to cause mischief through the land.
 
Yes, fighting against Islam = fighting against Allah and Mohammad.

Many Muslims have said that I am fighting against Allah and Mohammad and causing mischief!!
 
Yes, fighting against Islam = fighting against Allah and Mohammad.

Many Muslims have said that I am fighting against Allah and Mohammad and causing mischief!!

Many Muslims say a lot of things. We aren't talking about what many Muslims say, we're talking about what is said in the Qur'an.
 
It would be great if the Quran had been written in chronological order.

All this ties in together the Quran being vague, not written in any sepcial order, leads to WHY "many Muslims" have said that I am fighting against Allah and Mohammad and causing mischief!!

Have you read "Brothers Kept Apart"? I have not, but it sounds very interesting and similar to some of the thoughts I have had about the Quran.

http://brotherskeptapart.com/
 
It would be great if the Quran had been written in chronological order.

All this ties in together the Quran being vague, not written in any sepcial order, leads to WHY "many Muslims" have said that I am fighting against Allah and Mohammad and causing mischief!!

Why would the Qur'an be in chronological order, when it isn't a story book, and doesn't follow any traditional literary style in communicating its message?

Have you read "Brothers Kept Apart"? I have not, but it sounds very interesting and similar to some of the thoughts I have had about the Quran.

http://brotherskeptapart.com/

No I have not, but I may check it out later.
 
I like how people say Uthman(ra) burned other "versions" of the Qur'an when BURNING them would be the biggest disrespect EVER to the words of Allah. Claiming that a companion did this is makes me laugh really...there is only one Qur'an.
 
"Why would the Qur'an be in chronological order, when it isn't a story book, and doesn't follow any traditional literary style in communicating its message?"

It would help put the vague verses in context.
 
Sahih Hadith of Bukhari. Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510: Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Quran was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'
 
It would help put the vague verses in context.

If you want the context, then why not read a tafsir?

The verses aren't vague. You're just looking for a sequential narrative where there simply isn't one, and never was meant to be one.

The Book [Quran]:

The Divine Guidance​

First of all, the reader should understand the real nature of the Quran. Whether one believes it to be a revealed book or not, one will have to consider, as a starting point, the claim that it puts forward, as does its bearer, Muhammad (s, peace be upon him), that this is the Divine Guidance.

Allah, the Lord of the universe, its Creator, Master and Sovereign, created man and bestowed upon him the faculties of learning, speaking, understanding and discerning right from wrong and good from evil. He granted him freedom of choice, freedom of will, freedom of action. He gave him authority to acquire and make use of the things around him. In short, He granted him a kind of autonomy and appointed him as His representative on earth and instructed him to live in accordance with His Guidance.

... He organized all those who accepted the Divine Guidance into one community, which in its turn was required to reestablish its collective way of life based on the Guidance and to exert itself to reform the world, which had gone astray. The Quran which was revealed to Muhammad (s) is the Book which contains that Invitation and that Divine Guidance.

The SUBJECT it deals with is MAN: it discusses those aspects of his life that lead either to his real success or to his failure. The CENTRAL THEME that runs throughout the Quran is the exposition of the Reality and the invitation to the Right Way based upon it. It declares that this Reality is the same one that was revealed by Allah (SWT) Himself to Adam at the time of his appointment as His representative, and to all the Messengers after him. The AIM and OBJECT of the revelations is to invite man to that Right Way and to present clearly the Guidance which he has lost because of his negligence, or has perverted by his wickedness. If the reader keeps these three basic things in mind, he will find that in this Book there is no incongruity in style, no gap in continuity, and no lack of interconnection between its various topics.

As a matter of fact, this Book is never irrelevant with regard to its Subject, its Central Theme and its Aim... That is why it states or discusses or cites a subject only to the extent relevant to its aims and objects and leaves out unnecessary and irrelevant details, returning over and over again to its Central Theme and to its invitation around which every other topic revolves. When the Quran is studied in this light, no doubt is left that the whole of it is a closely reasoned argument and that there is continuity of subject throughout the Book.

The Style

The revelation of the Quran continued for twenty-three years. The different portions of the Quran were revealed according to the requirements of the various phases of Islam. It is thus obvious that such a book cannot have the kind of uniformity of style which is followed in formal books on religion and the like. It should also be kept in mind that the various portions of the Quran, both long and short, were not meant to be published in the form of pamphlets at the time of their revelation, but were to be delivered as addresses and promulgated as such. They could not therefore, be in the style of the written word. Moreover, these addresses were necessarily of a different nature from that of the lectures of a professor. The Prophet (s) was entrusted with a special mission and had to appeal both to the emotions and to the intellect; he had to deal with people of different mentalities, cope with different situations and various sets of experiences during the course of his mission. He also has to train and reform his followers and to imbue them with spirit and courage, to refute the arguments of opponents and to expose their moral weaknesses.

This also explains why the same issues are repeated over and over again in the Quran. A mission and a movement naturally demand that only those topics should be presented which are required at a particular stage and that nothing should be said about the requirements of the next stage. So the same instructions are covered again and again as long as Islam remains in the same stage. Of course, they have been differently worded and styled to avoid monotony, and couched in beautiful and dignified language to make them impressive as well as effective. Moreover, it repeats at suitable places the basic creed and principles in order to keep Islam strong at every stage.

All the surahs of the Quran contain references to its basic creed: the Unity of Allah (SWT), His attributes, the Hereafter, and accountability, punishment and reward, Prophethood, and belief in the Book. They all teach piety, fortitude, endurance, faith and trust in Allah (SWT) because these virtues could not be neglected at any stage of Islam. If any of these bases had been weakened at any stage in even the slightest way, the Islamic Movement could not have made any progress in its true spirit.
 
Last edited:
Tasfir is just another man's interpretation.

Then the Quran was meant to be vague!?

You see this is how and why some Muslims have caused so much grief for the world. It allows itself to be used for evil deeds by some that "say" they are Muslim.
 
Tasfir is just another man's interpretation.

...which is based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet.

Then the Quran was meant to be vague!?

Didn't I just say that Qur'an is not vague?

I already posted the explanation of what the Qur'an is meant to be.

You see this is how and why some Muslims have caused so much grief for the world. It allows itself to be used for evil deeds by some that "say" they are Muslim.

No it isn't. The Qur'an is not used to cause grief in this world.
 
The Quran is supposed to be a clear and final revelation from Allah.

A clear revelation from GOD does not need explanation. If you need an explanation or hadith to explain a verse it is not clear, but unclear-vague.

I understand that some minorities of Muslims support suicide bombers, justify their bombing of non-believers because they are fighting in Allah's way? The actions are considered heroic martyrdoms allowing immediate entrance into paradise.

They ignore the following verse:

002.195
YUSUFALI: And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.
PICKTHAL: Spend your wealth for the cause of Allah, and be not cast by your own hands to ruin; and do good. Lo! Allah loveth the beneficent.
SHAKIR: And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good.
 
The Quran is supposed to be a clear and final revelation from Allah.

A clear revelation from GOD does not need explanation. If you need an explanation or hadith to explain a verse it is not clear, but unclear-vague.

Actually, a clear revelation from God does need explanation. That's what Prophets and Messengers are for.
 
So you are saying that those that produce the explanations of the verses from Mohammd are prophets and messangers?
 
I like how people say Uthman(ra) burned other "versions" of the Qur'an when BURNING them would be the biggest disrespect EVER to the words of Allah. Claiming that a companion did this is makes me laugh really...there is only one Qur'an.

Oh dear, where have you been all your Muslim life. Indeed the original copies were burnt, the question is why? read on . . . . .

Bukhari (6:61:510) Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to the scribe Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Can't put my finger on the hadith but there was another verse lost, Aisha says that it was eaten by a goat!
 
Oh dear, where have you been all your Muslim life. Indeed the original copies were burnt, the question is why? read on . . . . .

Bukhari (6:61:510) Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to the scribe Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Can't put my finger on the hadith but there was another verse lost, Aisha says that it was eaten by a goat!


salaam
I'm not sure what your getting at? there still is one Quran - the other Qurans that were burnt were the ones with different dialects nothing to do woth content - so that no confusion would arise. They wrote the Quran in its original dialect (the dialect of prophet Muhammad pbuh). No verse was lost. Then the Quran was sent to major centers.

The uthmani Quran still exist today.

a great site about the Quranic manuscripts

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html

some good videos (lectures) :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WC_8LDqI-s&feature=PlayList&p=5E59D4DCEC0DCF82&index=2 - Hamza yusuf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGx194eaqm0&feature=channel_page - Shabir Ally on the histroy of the Quranic text.

peace
 
Last edited:
salaam

to follower yes the Quran is clear as it gets - its up to the individual to accept it or reject it.
 
:salamext:


1) Tafsir of the Qur'an is an indepth of study of it, to understand its meanings, while combining it with the Prophetic Guidance [Sunnah] to get a proper interpretation of what is meant by Allah.

Tafsir was done by Prophet Muhammad himself to his companions, and there are many examples of this in the ahadith.


There's a whole book on it in Sahih Al bukhari [book 60].
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...rces/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/060.sbt.html



2) In regard to what Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) did, this is based on the Qur'ans different forms of recital.


The evidence for that is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Jibreel taught me one style and I reviewed it until he taught me more, and I kept asking him for more and he gave me more until finally there were seven styles.”

(narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3047; Muslim, 819)



So there are 7 styles of recital of Qur'an, for the different tribes [since they spoke slightly differently in wording. So to make it easy for the ummah [muslim nation] - Prophet Muhammad asked Allah to reveal the Qur'an in 7 styles.]



These 7 styles may have slight differences in wording, but the meaning is the same.


i.e. In surah al fatihah, the main copy has the recital:

"Ihdinaa (guide us) as-Siraat Al Mustaqeem
(on the straight path.)".


Another recital mode us:

"Irshidnaa (guide us) as-Siraat Al Mustaqeem (on the straight path.")


[with the underlined letters being the root letters]




So there isn't much difference except in the wording, with one tribe preferring to use the word Irshidnaa over Ihdinaa, since both mean 'guide us' in arabic.



Why did Uthman burn the other copies? Not because there were any errors. But because the new muslims started to become confused as to why different people were reciting the Qur'an differently (not all the people had heard the hadith of the Qur'an being revealed in 7 styles, only some of the Prophets companions who were present when the hadith was mentioned.)

So Uthman united the people by burning the extra copies (which is allowed since all the companions of the Prophet agreed with him), and united the believers upon 1 style, which is the most famous today. The other styles are still preserved today, so they havn't been lost.



This link is useful;

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html



Allah knows best.
 
Last edited:
"Why would the Qur'an be in chronological order, when it isn't a story book, and doesn't follow any traditional literary style in communicating its message?"

It would help put the vague verses in context.


The Qur'an is explained by the Messenger of God, and his companions. They are further explained in context by seeing his life, which is also preserved authentically.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar Threads

Back
Top