Is this really the way GOD commands death?

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You're likely confusing "killing" with "murder". Neither Islam nor Christianity allow murder. However, Islam allows killing by the state as punishment for certain crimes, or in warfare, while Christianity is silent on those issues. The reason it is silent on those issues, is because it was already covered beforehand in the Torah, where there is plenty of God-sanctioned killing. This is further confirmed in the NT, where "Jesus" said he didn't come to change the law but to fulfill it.

Follower, you are indeed cherrypicking verses to suit your needs. Please don't take both the Quran and the Bible out of context to support your views.
 
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Yes that is the commandment from GOD for all men for all time. I already explained that GOD did on occassion command killing of specific peoples Amalekites, Midianites, etc. at specific times. The people GOD ordered Israel to be killled were really, really bad.

However, the actual commands given by God at the time, would not read in any more of a time-specific manner than how it reads in the Qur'an.

Furthermore, the killing of specifically-identified peoples is relative to the situation. The enemies were already a specific clan/tribe, that were not Israelite, so it's easy to identify them along those lines.

However, the enemies who opposed the Muslims during the time of Prophet Muhammad, were not a specifically-identified clan/tribe of people. In fact, many of them were from the same clan/tribe as many of those Muslims were from.

The only thing they really differed with the Muslims on (and what they can be grouped together by) is religion. Hence, the Qur'an refers to them based on that, and so they are called polytheists.

Fast forward a bit and Jesus comes along and the command for us is no killing period, for any reason.

Since "Jesus" (based on what is said in the NT) primarily focused on the etiquette of social behavior then this command would make sense. He wasn't a statesman, so the subject of battles and war, crime and punishment, were never issues he had to deal with.

I am asking is the order for killing in the Quran past, present and future an on going command not time specific. Are there time constraints? It appears to me that it is vague.

It isn't any more vague than it is in the Bible.
 
As an atheist I am really happy to see this topic discussed because these are exactly the kind of passages that give me moral issue with religion. If they were suitably answered to I would feel far more comfortable with religion on a moral level.

However, I do take issue with a Christian on here who stated that the New Testament does not call for violence. That statement is utterly false. I am a scholar of the Bible, despite being an atheist, and can post numerous New Testament verses in which violence is advocated, some from Jesus' own mouth! Moreover, many the case can be made from the New Testament that the OT is still valid and should be practiced.

I find it flabbergasting that a Christian comes here and proclaims the Bible is wholly loving and mean while bashes the Qur'an. Such a statement is either made from ignorance of scripture, or dishonesty, either of which is not virtuous. As someone who has read both the Bible and the Qur'an while STILL being an atheist, I can say with all honesty the Qur'an is far more scientifically accurate and has less moral issues than the Bible.

But I don't want to see this turned into a scripture war. Enough time has been wasted in which people argue over religion instead of finding commonality. Moreover, arguing makes us look as very devoid of love, which no matter your religion or lack of love: is the measure of a good human being.

So what I would like to see is both Muslims and Christians find these verses in their scripture and then explain via more scripture why these seemingly viscious tales are not to be followed literally today to non offending atheists like me. It would help me and many more like me (which nearly 20% of the world doesn't believe in a God, so thats ALOT of people) feel less judgmental.

Trying to convert/revert nonbeliever via reason, compassion and knowledge will go ALOT further than witnessing an argument.
 
As an atheist I am really happy to see this topic discussed because these are exactly the kind of passages that give me moral issue with religion. If they were suitably answered to I would feel far more comfortable with religion on a moral level.

However, I do take issue with a Christian on here who stated that the New Testament does not call for violence. That statement is utterly false. I am a scholar of the Bible, despite being an atheist, and can post numerous New Testament verses in which violence is advocated, some from Jesus' own mouth! Moreover, many the case can be made from the New Testament that the OT is still valid and should be practiced.

I find it flabbergasting that a Christian comes here and proclaims the Bible is wholly loving and mean while bashes the Qur'an. Such a statement is either made from ignorance of scripture, or dishonesty, either of which is not virtuous. As someone who has read both the Bible and the Qur'an while STILL being an atheist, I can say with all honesty the Qur'an is far more scientifically accurate and has less moral issues than the Bible.

But I don't want to see this turned into a scripture war. Enough time has been wasted in which people argue over religion instead of finding commonality. Moreover, arguing makes us look as very devoid of love, which no matter your religion or lack of love: is the measure of a good human being.

So what I would like to see is both Muslims and Christians find these verses in their scripture and then explain via more scripture why these seemingly viscious tales are not to be followed literally today to non offending atheists like me. It would help me and many more like me (which nearly 20% of the world doesn't believe in a God, so thats ALOT of people) feel less judgmental.

Trying to convert/revert nonbeliever via reason, compassion and knowledge will go ALOT further than witnessing an argument.

Are you sure it's 20%? I've read that 2.3% of the world's population are atheists.
 
You are twisting what Jesus said into a command from Him to us. What He says is not neccessarily a comand to violence.

luke 22
35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors' and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.

Did Jesus command anyone to go smite anyone on the neck? NO, infact look what happens later in the chapter- Do you suppose Jesus mentions the sword because He knew that it would be used on the soldier? One more teaching for Jesus to show His followers.

49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

The Old Testament and Quran are commands- in the Old Testament for a specific people that lived at a specific time. The Quran command is for all times.
 
http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/137

AT 33: Jesus and the Two Swords: Did Jesus Endorse Violence?
Submitted by admin on Sat, 01/03/2008 - 23:12.

Jeremy Thomson
Originally Published in Anabaptism Today, Issue 33, June 2003

There is one passage in the Gospels in which Jesus endorses the possession of weapons of violence, if not their violent use:

He said to them, ‘When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?’ They said, ‘No, not a thing.’ He said to them, ‘But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, “And he was counted among the lawless”: and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.” They said, ‘Lord, look, here are two swords.’ He replied, ‘It is enough.’ (Luke 22:35-38, NRSV)

Does this mean that Jesus, though he had previously advocated love of enemies,1 was now envisaging that extreme situations would arise for disciples, in which violence would be an unfortunate necessity? Was he, in his true humanity, accommodating himself to the ‘non-ideal’ context of human fallen-ness, as some have suggested?2

The written records of the Anabaptists give us no clues as to how they understood this passage.3 Before their time, the notion of ‘the two swords’ had been used to justify the Holy Roman Empire by early medieval thinkers, and then theorists of the High Middle Ages grounded the notion of a papal theocracy in the same. For Martin Luther, however, it was a literal interpretation of Romans 13:4 that was basic to his conception of ‘Sword’, and this dominated the discussion of all temporal use of force between the Magisterial Reformers and the Anabaptists.

It is in more recent times that Mennonites and others in the peace tradition have tried to find an understanding of this passage that escapes an endorsement of violence from Jesus himself. I will briefly discuss three of these before suggesting what I believe to be a more convincing approach.

Non-literal readings of the passage

In a previous generation, Guy Herschberger pointed out that the disciples, alert to plots to kill their master, had already acquired swords with which to protect him. However, they had failed to grasp Jesus’ radical rejection of violence, as they had many other elements of his mission. Thus Jesus’ command here should be taken ironically as a rebuke to Peter’s lack of faith (especially in view in the preceding verses, 22:31-34), and Jesus’ conclusion, ‘It is enough,’ should be taken as a regretful ‘What more can I say?’4

More recently, John Stoner has seen our passage as Jesus’ final examination of the disciples’ grasp of his teaching of non-violence, focused on the threat of violence in the impending crisis. Their failure to protest or question his command constituted failure of the test, while his response meant, ‘That is enough. Obviously you do not understand. We shall go on.’5

Richard Hays, in the course of an important chapter-length presentation of the New Testament case against the use of violence, attends to our passage. He takes Jesus’ command as a figurative warning of impending opposition, while the disciples’ literalist response provokes the impatient dismissal, ‘Enough already!’6

Now non-literal ways of taking Jesus’ command are common among commentary writers on Luke who accept the integrity of the narrative, for they must take account of Jesus’ rejection of violence at his arrest (22:49-51). Hays supports his figurative reading of Jesus’ instruction by quoting Howard Marshall: ‘The saying can be regarded only as grimly ironical, expressing the intensity of the opposition which Jesus and his disciples will experience, endangering their very lives.’7 The general approach of more recent commentators, however, has been to take Jesus’ command as a metaphorical reference to the impending reality of hostility against the disciples, not just during, but after his passion.8

However, I can see why such explanations are unsatisfactory to sceptics; figure and irony are difficult to prove. I believe that irony is employed elsewhere in Luke’s writing (e.g. in Paul’s remark concerning the high priest in Acts 23:5), but the only reason to appeal to a figural interpretation here is Jesus’ rejection of sword-use later in the chapter. More immediate considerations count against it. First, if the disciples had misunderstood Jesus, why did he not correct them – as he did on other occasions? Immediately before this interchange, he had punctured Peter’s extravagant expression of devotion (22:31-34). Second, Jesus supplies an explanation of his command in his quotation from Isaiah 53:12 in verse 37. His double insistence here on scriptural fulfilment concerns the culmination of his own career, i.e. in the next few hours. This requires that the command is not a general instruction for the disciples’ future disposition in mission, but has to do with an immediate estimation of Jesus as outlaw (in the eyes of the authorities?).

Furthermore, it is true that several times in Luke Jesus warns the disciples about their encountering hostility (9:23-27; 12:4-12; 21:12-19), and that two of these clearly refer to post-Easter experiences. Yet, hostility has already been expressed towards Jesus and his disciples (6:1-11; 11:53-54), and he has already said, ‘From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three’ (12:52). Conversely, in Luke’s second volume, the followers of Jesus experience ‘the goodwill of all the people’ (Acts 2:47), at least initially. So, Luke portrays the disciples encountering a mixture of goodwill and hostility both during and after Jesus’ earthly ministry – there is no overall shift to a bleaker reception of the disciples after his death and resurrection.

A more straightforward reading

Jesus’ command in verse 36 should not be taken as modifying or superseding his earlier commands as to the apostles’ mission lifestyle in general. He wanted his disciples to carry literal swords as his end approached in order to appear among outlaws, precisely because he had such a binding understanding of Scripture’s delineation of his own career. In which case, Jesus’ final remark in the interchange (v. 38) must be taken as at least a measure of approval; ‘Two swords are enough for me to be counted among the lawless.’ How then to reconcile this with the account of the arrest later the same evening (22:47-53)?

There can be no argument that when ‘it came down to the wire’ Jesus rejected the use of the sword, the bearing of which he had earlier enjoined, in an explicit statement, ‘No more of this!’ (v. 51). The miraculous healing of the severed ear emphasised that violence had no place in his peaceable kingdom: its effects were reversed. Jesus then spoke to those who had come to arrest him, insisting that his previous conduct did not warrant their preparations for violence. The Jewish authorities were revealing their true colours by making a forcible arrest away from the crowds: Jesus recognised the darkness of the powers to which they had given themselves (v. 53b), and with which he must grapple. So we still have an apparent anomaly: Why at his arrest did Jesus reject the identification of himself as bandit, if he previously instructed the carrying of swords in order to be associated with outlaws?

So far I have said nothing about the incident that occurs between the two swords interchange and the arrest. Luke depicts Jesus’ struggle in the unnamed place near the Mount of Olives (22:39-46) in terms of his reluctance to go through with the ‘cup’ of suffering. But what alternative was there by which he might accomplish his Messianic task? – it was a choice between the way of suffering or a campaign of violence. Perhaps the thought came to Jesus that those two swords could be wielded in a dramatic break-out, and that, having once resorted to violence, he could subsequently lead a peasant army to victory over the hated Roman occupying forces. If we try to read the account as a genuine struggle – without a pre-determined view of its outcome – then we may imagine that Jesus had no exact blueprint in his mind as to what would transpire.9 Of course, he had the outline of betrayal, suffering, death and resurrection (9:22; 9:44; 18:32f.), but his preoccupation with scriptural fulfilment indicates that this could be filled out only in limited ways. He did not know exactly what was to be done with the swords when he spoke about obtaining them, except that their appearance would entail outlaw associations. The Jewish authorities would know that so far Jesus and his disciples had not borne arms; to come across them at night carrying swords would signal a significant policy change.

But as Jesus emerged from his prayer-trial, he had become even more determined that the old cycle of violence must come to an end. When one of the swords was used, he immediately intervened. The disciple’s assumption of the outlaw role (wielding the sword against the high priest’s slave) gave Jesus the opportunity to stop the violence. His pronouncement, because it was made in the worst circumstances possible (‘your hour and the power of darkness’, v. 53b), assumes the character of an absolute prohibition for all his followers; an end to violence for all time.

Conclusion

It may be profitable to reflect briefly upon my interpretive method. I have deliberately restricted myself to thinking about Luke’s writing in its canonical form, rather than speculating about ‘the historical Jesus’ or how traditions about Jesus have been passed down and assembled by the author. It seems to me that Christians must be guided by the canonical witness to Jesus, rather than such scholarly attempts at reconstruction. A canonical approach, however, must go on to reckon with the witness of the other Gospels, and so some engagement with accounts of Jesus’ arrest in Matthew, Mark and John would be necessary for a full treatment of that incident. Yet discussion of the meaning of Jesus’ words and deeds as recounted by Luke cannot escape reflection on what was meant at the time of their utterance, and even some speculation as to what was in Jesus’ earthly mind during the events to which the Gospels testify, for theological reflection upon Jesus concerns more than a textual construct. It seeks to come to terms with his humanity at the same time as his divine Sonship.

This way of reading Luke’s two swords passage avoids a hard-to-prove figural take on Jesus’ command. It pays attention more seriously than do others to Jesus’ scriptural quotation. It integrates Jesus’ experience of prayerful struggle over whether to suffer rather than to inflict violence. Finally, it turns the tables on any suggestion that Jesus might have endorsed the use of violence, by suggesting that Jesus’ words in verse 51 should be taken as a theological pronouncement. For a short time Jesus had allowed the impression to arise among his disciples that he might be ‘armed and dangerous’ but, as one began to implement this scenario, Jesus repudiated such a stance once and for all. Jesus knew that his career would be misconceived (if not misrepresented) by the powers that he threatened; yet, at least among his own followers, he declared: ‘No more of this.’

There are two practical implications of my interpretation of the two swords interchange. First, Jesus’ instruction to buy a sword cannot be used to justify the purchase and carrying of weapons today. Many Christians have, of course, been misled by centuries of compromise with violence, and believe that ‘striking with the sword’ can be justified in certain circumstances, especially as a solution to certain political evils. Like the disciple who used his sword, they do not understand the profundity of Jesus’ way to the cross as impacting the deepest of human antipathies. In refusing the violence option, and having compassion on his enemies, Jesus maintains his integrity. He is able to behave in such a remarkably calm manner because he has allowed himself time to contemplate the full enormity of what he is taking on, and prayed through his horror of it. He instructs his disciples twice to pray that we may not come into such a time of trial, but he gives no guarantees that we will avoid it.

Second, Jesus’ preoccupation with the Scriptures regarding the course of his career is remarkable. The Isaiah passage to which Jesus refers was clearly at the forefront of his mind as his passion drew near. Our lives as Christians are not given such clear delineation in the Bible as was Jesus’, and yet he gives us an extraordinary model of searching the Scriptures in detail for setting our contemporary agendas. And it may be that Jesus did not know exactly how this detail would be played out when he invoked it – only as he went on down the path towards arrest did it become quite clear. So there may be times in our lives when parts of the Bible challenge us in strange ways, require us to re-examine our understanding of God’s call on our lives, and lead us to reckon afresh with the cost involved.
 
Are you sure it's 20%? I've read that 2.3% of the world's population are atheists.

According to the world religion statistics compendum of 2007 20% of the world is "non believing in a higher power". This includes Atheists, agnostics and philosophical buddhists because they do not recognize a higher power. They are the fourth largest religious group, of course Christianity, Islam and Hinduism come first in population. The three fastest growing theological views are Islam, Ba'haism and Atheism. Atheism of that 20% make up nearly half: 9.9% on the last statistical report.

I know that number seems huge, but you have to remember almost 40% of western europe is atheist, especially in countries like the netherlands, denmark, sweden, etc. Some of those countries have as much as an 80% atheist population.

Granted, take that statistic (though the world compendum is the best one out there thus far) with a grain of salt, because its not like they take census in the amazonian jungles of tribal nations of Africa. They are working with reported data from industrialized nations, and the more industrialized a nation the heavier population of non believers they have.
 
Greetings and peace be with you Kafir;
I am really happy to see this topic discussed because these are exactly the kind of passages that give me moral issue with religion.
I believe in one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, and when I walk through town, I see a part of God’s wonderful creation. I see people who could be atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and much else, we are all children of the same God. We should care about God’s wonderful creation; which means caring for all our brothers and sisters, despite all our differences.

What kind of a burden we must be to God with all this arguing and fighting. We must appear just like foolish children fighting our brothers and sisters with words, guns and bombs.

I don’t believe religious people reflect the laws and commands of God truthfully, and I include myself. Keep searching for God despite all of us not being a very good advert for God.

In the spirit of praying to One God for peace on Earth

Eric
 
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Sura 9, verse 5: Relates to a period of time where the pagans broke a treaty between them and the muslims. There was a grace period of several months, after which the muslims were allowed to take action against those who broke the treaty. When it says ''forbidden months pass...'' it is referring to that grace period.


It's funny what some people try and do with the verses of the Qur'an. Concocting all sorts of theories and mumbo jumbo.

Qur'an is nice and simple. Quit overcomplicating matters by ISOLATING SINGLE VERSES and taking them OUT OF CONTEXT.
 
Sura 9, verse 5: Relates to a period of time where the pagans broke a treaty between them and the muslims

Are you saying that if pagans broke a treaty today the verse does not apply?
 
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Sura 9, verse 5: Relates to a period of time where the pagans broke a treaty between them and the muslims

Are you saying that if pagans broke a treaty today the verse does not apply?

Nope. I'm saying that verse relates to a specific incident at a specific time. Whether or not it can be extrapolated to today's time is not for me to say - I'll leave that to the scholars and imaams :).
 
Sura 9, verse 5: Relates to a period of time where the pagans broke a treaty between them and the muslims

Are you saying that if pagans broke a treaty today the verse does not apply?

Can the Biblical verses about those battles and wars be applied today, if the situation were similar?
 
What are the scholars saying on the subject?

muslimapoclyptc -No in the Bible GOD names the people, mentions the evils they were practicing and where they lived. Too many facters would have to be in place to use the command to kill.

Since then, Old Testament time, the Law was fufilled by Jesus. Jesus came and gave perfect obedience to GODs Law. Whole nations of man will never be that depraved again.
 
Follower:

Please remember that many if not most of us here are very familiar with the Bible. Many of us were Christian at one time. Some of us were even Christian ministers, pastors or priests.

I only point that out to show that we all do not accept the Bible because we were raised Muslim, We accepted Islam because we found the Bible to be in error.

I am certain you would see the error if we took quotes from the bible out of context and posted them as teachings from the bible. So it is with the Qur'an,
an ayyat from the Qur'an can not be fully understood unless the entire context is read. This usually will be the ayyats before and after it.
 
What are the scholars saying on the subject?

muslimapoclyptc -No in the Bible GOD names the people, mentions the evils they were practicing and where they lived. Too many facters would have to be in place to use the command to kill.

Since then, Old Testament time, the Law was fufilled by Jesus. Jesus came and gave perfect obedience to GODs Law. Whole nations of man will never be that depraved again.

Except not one word in the NT is in the writing of Jesus(as) all there is, are alleged quotes by various authors. The identity of some being questionable. I can not find a single lesson or sermon directly given by Jesus(as), only quotes of what he is alleged to have said. Remember there is no indication that Jesus(as) was illiterate and historically he had a good education and was well versed in Judaism to the extent of being addressed as Rabbi. It is a sad commentary on Christianity that none of the early Christians preserved the writings by him and could give a true verification of what he said and/or taught.

From a non-Christian view point, we can not see where the Christians of today are following the Teachings of Christ(as). To us it looks like the bible is the writing of Paul and the desired teachings of the various councils notably the councils of Trent and Nicea.

I have no doubt Jesus(as) gave perfect obedience to God(swt). Jesus(as) is one of the most respected Prophets(PBUT) in Islam. The Qur'an refers to Jesus(as) more times then it mentions Muhammad(PBUH) and his Mother has an entire Surat in the Qur'an. Probably as Muslims many of us follow Jesus(as) more correctly then many Christians do.
 
LOL!! Woodrow I have read the Quran.

The only good answer would be that there was only one "Great Pilgrimage" in the timeline of man - that would identify a very specific time.

LOL! Yes I have realized this:

The Qur'an refers to Jesus(as) more times then it mentions Muhammad(PBUH) and his Mother has an entire Surat in the Qur'an.
 
LOL!! Woodrow I have read the Quran.

The only good answer would be that there was only one "Great Pilgrimage" in the timeline of man - that would identify a very specific time.

LOL! Yes I have realized this:

The Qur'an refers to Jesus(as) more times then it mentions Muhammad(PBUH) and his Mother has an entire Surat in the Qur'an.

Have you read the Qur'an or have you read an interpretation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an only exists in Arabic. all of the translations are flawed in one way or another. If you have read a translation. Try to read at least to or 3 different ones and in that way you will find a closer understanding of what the arabic says and perhaps see why it is so important not to take any ayyat out of context. The same wording in Arabic can have a very different meaning when placed in the context of another surat.

I often suggest to non-Arabic readers to use both Pickthall and Yusuf Ali as their writing styles when combined give a more accurate understanding. In addition I suggest using a third translation as verification. Shakir is good
 
What are the scholars saying on the subject?

muslimapoclyptc -No in the Bible GOD names the people, mentions the evils they were practicing and where they lived. Too many facters would have to be in place to use the command to kill.

The same applies to the Qur'an as well. Although specific tribes and their locations aren't mentioned, the context makes it pretty clear what it's talking about. You can't really mention tribes since they weren't divided along tribal lines, and you can't really mention location, since they were all basically in the same area.

What you may or may not realize, is that the conflict alluded to in the Qur'an was ongoing. It didn't begin and end with the treaty. All the ayats regarding fighting allude to the conflict.

If you wanted to take all the ayats pertaining to the issue, you'd see that it's as specific as possible, without becoming excessively wordy.

Since then, Old Testament time, the Law was fufilled by Jesus. Jesus came and gave perfect obedience to GODs Law. Whole nations of man will never be that depraved again.

Here is what that Law (according to the Qur'an) says about killing:

Qur'an 5:32:

On that account, We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

The Islamic perspective on these issues is important to understand if you want to grasp how Islam truly defines itself.
 
Woodrow - When I first read the Quran 5 years ago I was using

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/

I decided that I did not want to be influenced by man as I read and started leaving out all the words in ( ).

Then just recently I figured if the the Holy Spirit has always helped me through the Holy Bible, shouldn't He be able to help me through the Quran?

If you had read my opening post you would see that I used:

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Literal:
So if the months the forbidden/sacred ended/passed, so fight/kill the sharers/takers of partners (with God) where/when you found them, and take/punish them and restrict/confine them and remain/be concerned and prepared/beset for them (in) every lookout/observatory, so if they repented, and kept up the prayers and gave/brought the charity/ purification , so free their way/path , that God (is) forgiving, merciful.

muslimapoclyptic - Thank you. you do understand what I am saying. I don't believe that GOD would not be specific and I have to think that those verses were lost at some time- the battle when so many Muslims were killed, or when Uthmann burned the other versions of the Qurans.

The problem with:
5:32:
On that account, We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Literal:
Because of that, We wrote/decreed on Israel's sons and daughters, that who killed a self without a self, or corruption in the earth/Planet Earth, so as if he killed the people all/all together , and who revived it, so as if he revived the people all/all together, and Our messengers had come to them with the evidences, then that many from them, after that in the earth/Planet Earth spoilers/wasters (E) .

It is directed towards the Children of Israel and not Muslims. It lead right into what the Muslim is allowed to do if smeone is against Islam:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Literal:
But reward those who embattle/fight God and His messenger, and they strive/endeavor in the earth/Planet Earth corruption/disorder, that they be killed or they be crucified , or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposites, or they be expelled/exiled from the land, that for them shame/scandal/disgrace in the present world, and for them in the end a great torture.
 
"the idea you uphold of god being love is quite amazing, christianity would not have spread as it did if not for the Romans butchering their way throughout Europe and elsewhere, where was the god/love then?"

These people were not following the teaching of Jesus. Anyone killing and not loving their neighbor/enemy is not following Jesus.

In Islam you are allowed to kill, Christians are not. The rulling was reversed.

There wouldn't be much christians in the world then would there, in the past, present and the future.
 
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