Ethics without God ? - Canada by Adam Deen

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Ethics and morals exist at the very least as a social construct. The motivation behind those acts are different for each individual but all fit the bill of reward (in some way shape or form).

For the religious, it is to please God/benefit in the hereafter; for the non-religious it is to please others (obviously, the two motivators are not mutually exclusive and can thus apply to both. Also, this is not to negate other motivating factors - just pointing out a common and general perspective based on reward).

There is nothing inherently wrong with either case or motivating factor in and of themselves. I should also mention that motivation and hope are very closely linked: if you are motivated to work 24 hours, you do so because of hope of reward.

Without that hope and motivation offered by religion (specifically Islam), doing anything is pointless - especially if you behave immoral or unethically. In fact, you're more inclined to do so (without following religion) since:
* no recompense/ - if you get caught, so what? If you are truly immoral/unethical you won't get caught (you will break rules) and if you do get caught it won't stop you. If you don't get caught, you won't be held accountable to your acts (judgement day doesn't exist to you).
* you gain from the act - self-rewarding acts are self-motivating so you will repeat it.

Essentially, there is more to gain from being immoral and unethical. Not that I am condoning such actions - neither will society for that matter (or maybe that is just hope talking ;)).
Edit: obviously the above doesn't mean all non-religious folk will commit unethical/immoral acts. Just that religion (or rather Islam) reinforces moral/ethic behaviour through a stronger motivating factor and so by following the teachings (properly) you won't commit immoral/unethical acts.

The motivation and hope offered by mankind (as good as it is - don't take me for some player hater :p) is lower than that offered through religion since the latter offers a much longer-term reward (paradise, life after death), and the former a much shorter-term reward (limited to this world only such as marriage, kids, money, accomodation etc).

I do not mean to downplay the reward in this life, but simply to say what is offered in the long term is much greater. Even if it is nothing more than hope of a reward - it at least offers a substantial motivating factor.

The main differences between religious and non-religious folk therefore is the overall motivating factor. One peaks in this life; the other peaks in the hereafter.

Cynics/islam-haters may burst into tears now.
 
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oh, I absolutely agree. The reward for being a moral person (even though it's dictated by quran, most of the rules are natural and universal rules, as ibn rushd pointed out hundreds of years ago) for a muslim is truly great. I would like heaven please.

but, I disagree that being immoral has more benefits. its only the case when the majority of the person's environment is moral, and then only materialistically so. the person would have to deal with conscience issues and try to convince himself rationally that what he does is ok. just like how we muslims have nafs as non-muslims, they too have conscience as muslims.
 
oh, I absolutely agree. The reward for being a moral person (even though it's dictated by quran, most of the rules are natural and universal rules, as ibn rushd pointed out hundreds of years ago) for a muslim is truly great. I would like heaven please.

but, I disagree that being immoral has more benefits. its only the case when the majority of the person's environment is moral, and then only materialistically so. the person would have to deal with conscience issues and try to convince himself rationally that what he does is ok. just like how we muslims have nafs as non-muslims, they too have conscience as muslims.

Hmmm.... could you specify what you mean by "moral" and "immoral", you act as if they have meanings unanimously agreed upon by your hypothetical society. I'm afraid you are oversimplifying it. What one person thinks is moral could be greed and miserlyness, basically putting yourself first, which is extremely beneficial for the individual. People who can't stand up for themselves will be rooted out, survival of the fittest baby.
 
going from your example of greed, and selfishness.
in a situation where most of the population is selfish and greedy, an altruist and community driven pack/tribe would thrive more than the greedy individuals. it fits the survival of the fittest. then the community gets saturated by altruists, and being selfish and greedy becomes beneficial again.
 
going from your example of greed, and selfishness.
in a situation where most of the population is selfish and greedy, an altruist and community driven pack/tribe would thrive more than the greedy individuals. it fits the survival of the fittest. then the community gets saturated by altruists, and being selfish and greedy becomes beneficial again.

Or not. Their altruism would make them susceptible to the greedy people around them. Think about it. Their altruism would be taken advantage of until they themselves turn greedy in response.

In no way whatsoever would the altruistic group thrive.
 
:) green beard effect is in play. the group only tend to each other, not the other greedy type. "This view explains altruism at the individual level in nature, especially in kin relationships: when an individual sacrifices its own life to protect the lives of kin, it is acting in the interest of its own genes"

seriously there are lots of material in this regard, if you are interested. and a (in)famous book named "the selfish gene"
 
:) green beard effect is in play. the group only tend to each other, not the other greedy type. "This view explains altruism at the individual level in nature, especially in kin relationships: when an individual sacrifices its own life to protect the lives of kin, it is acting in the interest of its own genes"

seriously there are lots of material in this regard, if you are interested. and a (in)famous book named "the selfish gene"

Thanks for the book recommendation but I am just playing devil's advocate. I find that the real question here is not if atheists or w/e have morals, but rather are these "morals" worthy of being upheld?
 
is not if atheists or w/e have morals, but rather are these "morals" worthy of being upheld?

Athiests morals are very simple. I can do anything I want so long as I don't hurt somebody else.

Therefore I cannot steal, cannot commit adultry and cannot do lots of things. That's the highest level of morals you can get!

Religious peole must follow the rules of their religion - if the rule is silly the it " is the will of Allah". But its still silly.

It is not a high level of morality. it is following a rule blindly.

Have a nice day.
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Athiests morals are very simple. I can do anything I want so long as I don't hurt somebody else.

Therefore I cannot steal, cannot commit adultry and cannot do lots of things. That's the highest level of morals you can get!

Religious peole must follow the rules of their religion - if the rule is silly the it " is the will of Allah". But its still silly.

It is not a high level of morality. it is following a rule blindly.

Have a nice day.
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Peace Joe,

Last time I checked, atheists weren't united on any one issue. Also "I can't hurt anyone" is vague. Ontop of that, despite you having a significant post count here you remain spectacularly ignorant about how people go about following Islamic morals.

Personally I suspect that statement was posted more as a self glorifying and condescending statement "Oh religious people follow blindly" than something you wish to discuss rationally and thoughtfully. Therefore, please refrain from posting such silly statements, at least in regards to Islam.

But just to continue your bizarre humor.

"Atheistic morals, which they're not even united upon, are based upon their society's whims or their own personal ones. Not particularly appealing for one looking for truth."

Have a nice day!
 
joe, you still follow the rules of your country even if you think they are silly right? there is a difference between laws and morals.

there is a mixup I believe. there are laws, and then there are ethics, and morals.
muslims always have their religious laws. atheists have their secular laws, laws of the country.

muslims form their morals based on the values in quran, ahadiith and their societies, and their nature.
atheists form their morals based on the values in their societies, their rationality, and their nature.

they both have them, and as I've said before, conscience and super ego of the human psyche in general makes every human that is not out of order, capable of morals.

debating over the quality of morals and ethic values of different cultural groups is the silliest thing ever. but we do it anyway, to strengthen our belief in our group, and values.
 
atheists form their morals based on the values in their societies, their rationality, and their nature.

No, I can do anything I want so long as I dont hurt anybody else.

The local laws say that smoking is allowed. I would never smoke in public because the smoke hurts other people.

Smoking is allowed in Islam and other people breathe that smoke all the time!
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No, I can do anything I want so long as I dont hurt anybody else.

The local laws say that smoking is allowed. I would never smoke in public because the smoke hurts other people.

Smoking is allowed in Islam and other people breathe that smoke all the time!
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Again with the false assumptions. Yes many Muslims smoke but is that because it is permitted or because of the culture of smoking?

I don't have much time but here.

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa090600a.htm

Islam doesn't condone smoking at all. In fact it is discouraged as evidenced by the above. Please Joe, don't speak without knowledge.
 
Well there are two types of moral people. Not counting immoral people.
There are moral absolutist. Some this are moral some are not just because. Muslims are in this group. Most theists are.
There are moral conaquentalist. Some is more or immorial depending on the amount of suffering it causes or alleviates.


*does that help?*
 
We all live under multiple guidelines of ethics. these are usually based upon:

religion

Society

Family

peers

All of us are week and we do tend to slip a little when we shift from one group to another.

People tend to drop their concepts of social ethics when they visit or move to another country. etc.

We seem to judge our own ethics based upon how we see people we admire behave. Often feeling our sense of ethics is better- Or as an old member had in her signature: "A man sees his own fleas as gazelles."
 
We all live under multiple guidelines of ethics. these are usually based upon:

religion

Society

Family

peers
Woodrow do you want to know the Best part about out? as the generations go by the peer ethic values determine the family ethic values which eventualy determine the societal values and they eventual set the religious ethical values.
 
actually athiestofpeace, muslims could be either absolutist & Consequentialist. some laws are absolute, some not so.
 
actually athiestofpeace, muslims could be either absolutist & Consequentialist. some laws are absolute, some not so.

They would still be absolutist with a majority or large part of things being immoral just cause,. (yes I know cause of Allah). Could you go over some of the non absolutes.
 
I've not watched the video yet but I'll say this . Their can't be a real morality without God. Without a Transcendental Standard, morality becomes arbitrary and subjective. Even Nietzsche admitted this. Logically atheism therefore leads to moral nihilism.
 
I've not watched the video yet but I'll say this . Their can't be a real morality without God. Without a Transcendental Standard, morality becomes arbitrary and subjective. Even Nietzsche admitted this. Logically atheism therefore leads to moral nihilism.

Unless we evolved a set standard of ethics and morality.
 
First, lets identify what is moral or ethics to each one...what I think is good thing to do may be a bad thing to do in another culture or societies.
But in general, I think everyone have morals but they differ on how much they carry them, the origin of the human is goodness, the surrounding, people, or even religions can affect the kind of morals everyone have

Many non-muslims or even non-religious have moral but again they differ from one to another

to me, I think that religion is a way to organize moral and direct them to the right place. Religion is a way to maintain and keep the moral that people originally have by instinct
 

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