Convert vs Revert

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings AoP, I don’t think we have encounted before, let me start by saying my warm welcomes to this forum. I am sure you would fit in nicely to this great forum.

Convert or Revert?

Firstly what I think of this issue is simple. Revert. Ever single being; which is born, is born as a Muslim (one who surrenders his will to God). Moreover this would be concordant with the ideas that, let’s assume a baby is born, and lives for about 2 months, were would it go? Heaven or Hell, as babies are born pure, and born as Muslims with Imaan, they would go heaven. So everyone is born as a Muslim, but you could say has been altered by their parents or themselves into another religion, or they might just stay Muslim. Allah knows best. So having decided to come to Islam later on in life, you are just reverting to what you were before.

Can you show me that newborns are born submiting to Allah?

Newborns can’t talk, speak or read at early stages of life. We can’t communicate and say “do you believe in God”; for obviously reasons. Now assuming you have studied a bit about Islam, you would know that this life is just a test; to see whether you believe or do not believe. You can’t see your soul, God, as if you could then where is the test? I can’t show or prove, newborns are submitting to Allah, just as you can’t prove they are not; as it is out of science.

Newborns have no concept of Allah/God ergo they are atheist.

See my above reply. Lets say you never ever seen me before, and it isn’t a forum with your “way of life” at the side stating the obvious, and I told you can you scientifically and empirically tell me what religion I am in. You would say “no”, as I would need to tell you. Or start talking about my views.
So logically you can never tell, as you can’t see Imaan (faith), soul.

A new born does not understand thw concept of Islam and Allah there for is an atheist.

Ok, I mean they don’t know concepts of how to hold a piece of paper properly at early stages, but you can’t prove they are atheist, or theist for this matter.

Lastly I would like to say, sorry if this was a rude introduction to me, as I wouldn’t want that.

Anyways looking forward to your reply,

Peace

 

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson,

Young children are obviously not newborns, but they are as close as we can get.

Agreed, but as I said, by the time they reach an age where you are able to have a meaningful exchange with a child there has been plenty of time for their Fitrah to be corrupted.

Interviewing a newborn baby is rarely successful and can often end messily...

No doubt!

Yes. I teach young children every day and I've had plenty of opportunities to find out what they think about all sorts of things.

That makes sense. How young are these children, if I may ask?

I never tell them what I think about god - it's best to let them form their own opinions.

I can understand that from your perspective.

Regards

 

[UmmSqueakster]

Absolutely no theological reason for it, I just don't like the word revert. It just seems weird to me. While I may have reverted to the original state that I had always felt was correct, I converted to a religious system based upon that state.

 

[salamfromrom]

I am a revert like Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Khattab, Khadijah and the first generation

hehe but all muslims are the same, born upon the fitrah. Revert or 'born' same thing.


salams

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Greetings czgibson,

Agreed, but as I said, by the time they reach an age where you are able to have a meaningful exchange with a child there has been plenty of time for their Fitrah to be corrupted.

This really is a bizarre idea. I could just as easily say that all babies are born worshipping Thor and have an inbuilt hatred of giraffes, and that the reason why this isn't always apparent is due to the "corrupting influences" of parents and society.

That makes sense. How young are these children, if I may ask?

The youngest children I teach at the moment are aged five, although I've taught kids as young as two in the past. The oldest person I've taught so far was 76, so you could say I've covered most of the age ranges.

I can understand that from your perspective.

You seem to be implying something there about the value of letting children make up their own minds.

Or have I misunderstood you?

Peace

 

[alcurad]

fitrah = conscience/capacity-mental?- for it
revert not= convert
I think some prefer it since convert is taken as someone who was not muslim before and it makes for an uneasy conversation at times if others fuss over it.
it doesn't matter that much anyway, the past is the past.
that being said, convert or revert; it is admirable mashallah, it takes much courage and strength to make that decision

 

[anonymous]

we believe everyone is born in submission to the creator, i.e muslim. islam means submission, a muslim is the one who submits. you probably notice the simularity between the letters islam and muslim. another example, jihad is to struggle in the path of Allah against the evils and wrongs in the world, and the mujahid is the one on that path.

so every child is born in this natural state of submission, submitting to the creator and with an inbuilt natural reverence instinct to worship their creator.

That is what I have read and been told too. However, after watching the video posted by brother convert, its made me think again..

 

[Uthman]

EDIT: I will watch the video first.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Greetings AoP, I don’t think we have encounted before, let me start by saying my warm welcomes to this forum. I am sure you would fit in nicely to this great forum.

Thank you. Nice to meet you. So far so good.

Convert or Revert?

Firstly what I think of this issue is simple. Revert. Ever single being; which is born, is born as a Muslim (one who surrenders his will to God). Moreover this would be concordant with the ideas that, let’s assume a baby is born, and lives for about 2 months, were would it go? Heaven or Hell, as babies are born pure, and born as Muslims with Imaan, they would go heaven. So everyone is born as a Muslim, but you could say has been altered by their parents or themselves into another religion, or they might just stay Muslim. Allah knows best. So having decided to come to Islam later on in life, you are just reverting to what you were before.

Added to the list of ways that Islam is better then Christianity.

Newborns can’t talk, speak or read at early stages of life. We can’t communicate and say “do you believe in God”; for obviously reasons. Now assuming you have studied a bit about Islam, you would know that this life is just a test; to see whether you believe or do not believe. You can’t see your soul, God, as if you could then where is the test? I can’t show or prove, newborns are submitting to Allah, just as you can’t prove they are not; as it is out of science.

A newborns universe is smaller the ours. If a newborn can not see something then it does not exist. When I leave a room I no longer exist as far as that newborn is concerend. Secondly newborns are working at a primal level. Not top dehumanize them but they are instinctual creatures. They parts of the brain required for complex thought is not developed yet. New Borns do not think, conceptionalize, know, or understand things ergo they can not beilive.

*Will try and find case studies*

See my above reply. Lets say you never ever seen me before, and it isn’t a forum with your “way of life” at the side stating the obvious, and I told you can you scientifically and empirically tell me what religion I am in. You would say “no”, as I would need to tell you. Or start talking about my views.
So logically you can never tell, as you can’t see Imaan (faith), soul.

There is a key difference. In the above case you are asking me to know your mind and heart. In the case of newborns the topic is what they are capable of. You do see the difference right?

Ok, I mean they don’t know concepts of how to hold a piece of paper properly at early stages, but you can’t prove they are atheist, or theist for this matter.

We can know what they are capable off.

Lastly I would like to say, sorry if this was a rude introduction to me, as I wouldn’t want that.

How could this possible be rude? Thanks for the welcome and I enjoyed your post. Hope you enjoy this one as well.

Anyways looking forward to your reply,

Peace

Peace to you too
Mick

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Greetings,

if you want to find out what understanding of god newborns might have, try asking several young children what they think about god. You'll get many different answers, and I guarantee that many of them will not be in line with the teachings of Islam.

Peace

First what does this have to do with newborns secondly we would need to do a double blind study and factor in environmental effects and causes.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

First what does this have to do with newborns secondly we would need to do a double blind study and factor in environmental effects and causes.

Granted, it's not a precise experiment - but does it even need to be?

If every child in the world gave the same answer about god, then there'd be a case for calling it innate knowledge. Given that that's not the case, I don't think ideas like "all babies are born Muslim" should be presented as facts.

Peace

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Well it would have to be double blind to deal with environmental issues.

 

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Thank you. Nice to meet you. So far so good.

Added to the list of ways that Islam is better then Christianity.

I think you might know this, but take this in mind as well, Allah does not take you account for something you didn’t know. Let’s say that “accidently you munch on a bit of pork, unknowingly; that wouldn’t be against you, and ultimately Allah knows best.

A newborns universe is smaller the ours. If a newborn can not see something then it does not exist. When I leave a room I no longer exist as far as that newborn is concerend. Secondly newborns are working at a primal level. Not top dehumanize them but they are instinctual creatures. They parts of the brain required for complex thought is not developed yet. New Borns do not think, conceptionalize, know, or understand things ergo they can not beilive.

Ok, I agree that a newborns universe is smaller than ours LOL, but what I don’t agree is the statement; on which you said “...cannot see something then it does not exist”, as let’s say person X is behind the door, and it is shut so you can’t see the other side, you can’t say that person X doesn’t not exist. I understand what you are trying to say about newborns, you are talking about things that are physical; such as yourself, what you can’t bring into your “case study” is God, or the soul. You can use the example of yourself leaving the room, but not God. At the stage of newborn, the soul has Imaan. When the stages of puberty arrive, then you ultimately become “impure” and commit sins, on which you are accounted for, at that stage your soul, can become impure.

There is a key difference. In the above case you are asking me to know your mind and heart. In the case of newborns the topic is what they are capable of. You do see the difference right?

Yes, what “the examiners” are capable of viewing is the nail on the head, as the researchers (assuming under experiments; for a case study) cant examine their soul.

We can know what they are capable off.

Yes, “but you can’t prove they are atheist, or theist for this matter” just on knowing what they are capable off.

How could this possible be rude? Thanks for the welcome and I enjoyed your post. Hope you enjoy this one as well.

Lol sure did enjoy your post.

Peace.

 

[AhlaamBella]

If a child dies; they die Muslim. A child grows into an adult and becomes muslim; they reverted. That's the islamic view.

Linguistically; Convert is correct

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Naturally I don't think everyone is born a Muslim, or innocent for that matter, but I don't mind if converts refer to themselves as reverts as I used to.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

@Ali_Cena If we were to find that infants could not have concepts or know things then wouldn't that show the newborns are born at least mentally atheists? I mean they can not mentally believing in God if that concept does not exist in their head. So if they are not capable of the concept they can not believe ergo they would be an atheist. Right?

Physically/biological/mentally speaking. Let us leave spiritually to the side for now? Is that ok with you?

Peace
Mick

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

I see this thread seems to be some what of a hot topic at the moment.

If a child dies; they die Muslim. A child grows into an adult and becomes muslim; they reverted. That's the islamic view.

Linguistically; Convert is correct

Naturally I don't think everyone is born a Muslim, or innocent for that matter, but I don't mind if converts refer to themselves as reverts as I used to.

Really it comes down to two things. One if Allah and Islam are true, and the only truth, then it is a revert. Also the above are newborns even capable of having faith or knowing God?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Naturally I don't think everyone is born a Muslim, or innocent for that matter, but I don't mind if converts refer to themselves as reverts as I used to.

Did you use to be a Muslim, wtp?

Peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Greetings,


Did you use to be a Muslim, wtp?

Peace

Hehe, no, I used to mind the word revert.
Hence my profile title, agnostic revert.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Hehe, no, I used to mind the word revert.
Hence my profile title, agnostic revert.

ZING! Sorry, that was so funny.
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