Convert vs Revert

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

My oh My. So how would a soul like that make a newborn born a Muslim?

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

this would be a difficult one

I am thinking the truth of the matter with out with out souls we are born agnostic.

 

[alcurad]

I don't think your soul has any religion when you are born. we have souls, and we are agnostic when born because we don't know, agnosticism is the child's position. no one remains agnostic, even self proclaimed -adult - agnostics have a religion, they just don't admit it.

rather the way the brain is made, it is easier for it to have a conscience than not to. thus children are born upon 'fitrah', fitrah = conscience. sound fitrah leads to Islam, Islam = the religion all prophets preached, as well as the religion that is the culmination of all non-prophetic or so called man-made religions.
children aren't really muslim, they are sinless, with no capacity for understanding the consequences of their actions, thus they are not thrown into hell.

now truly off topic.

 

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Ali_Cena, do you know the difference between a hard atheist and a soft atheist?

Do you know the difference between the following two:

1. I believe in no god. (hard atheist)

2. I don't believe in a god (soft atheist, majority)

Yes, I do, and i dont think its called "soft" and "hard" its more "strong" and "weak" athiesm

Woud you be surprised if I said you can believe in the following two simultaneously:

1. I don't believe in a god.
2. I don't believe in no god.

Yes, statment one is more of a rejection of a particulare God, and statment 2 is more of a rejection of the whole "God" idea. statment 1 seems more weak athiesm, and statment 2 more of a strong athiesm; take Richard Dawkins for example.

You can belive in the 2 simultaneously; as you can reject the God of a certain faith lets say, christianity, and also say i reject the whole idea of God also. Or am i misunderstood?

I dont think this has any relevene to the topic, but you could show us how it does.

Peace

 

[Ali_Cena]

Hi Mick,

Can you tell me more about souls? Then I will start my comments

We have only limited information about certain things in our religion, and my mind is only stored limited information on limited data,

You ask and ill see if i can get to it.

Peace

 

[Ali_Cena]

I don't think your soul has any religion when you are born. we have souls, and we are agnostic when born because we don't know, agnosticism is the child's position. no one remains agnostic, even self proclaimed -adult - agnostics have a religion, they just don't admit it.

rather the way the brain is made, it is easier for it to have a conscience than not to. thus children are born upon 'fitrah', fitrah = conscience. sound fitrah leads to Islam, Islam = the religion all prophets preached, as well as the religion that is the culmination of all non-prophetic or so called man-made religions.
children aren't really muslim, they are sinless, with no capacity for understanding the consequences of their actions, thus they are not thrown into hell.

now truly off topic.

Not to sound rude, but i think youv got it wrong, we have a natural fitrah at birth, or even before birth. So we do have a religion when we are born.

Peace

 

[alcurad]

it's not rude to disagree , consider that a newborn child does not know anything about the five daily prayers, or how to perform ablution, or what are the five pillars then you'll see why I don' think they don't have a religion at birth, or you are alluding an alternative meaning for religion?

 

[Ali_Cena]

it's not rude to disagree , consider that a newborn child does not know anything about the five daily prayers, or how to perform ablution, or what are the five pillars then you'll see why I don' think they don't have a religion at birth, or you are alluding an alternative meaning for religion?

Salaam brother, ok, first things first Allah the creator does not hold you accountable for something on which you did not know. Take the examples for you didn’t know that eating a mango was haraam, and you eat it after a few hours you found out it was haraam; you won’t be held accountable for what you did now know. Allah knows best.

Now there is no such thing as original sin, babies are born pure, now this means that suppose babies are sinless, and if they don't know anything about five daily prayers, or how to perform ablution, or what are the five pillars, then they won’t be held accountable for those “lack of knowledge’s” until they are at a stage of knowing. So babys are in a sense pure if they are sinless, then obviously they have to be muslim by soul, so you cant call a baby a kaffir (non-Muslim) at birth as then they would have sins. It makes perfect sense that they are born with imam in their soul at birth; in order to complete their pureness.

This is great as we have new findings in this thread, first we thought that babies are agnostics (they don't know) but second half beginning we have to include religion into this (as mentioned by me and Mick) so now bring religion into this, and you have a pure fresh new soul, with nothing wrong hence stating that the newborn has its soul with Imaan (unconditionally) without knowing until they can make up their decisions by themselves (as you do have a free-will you know).
What you guys think,

SECOND HALF HAS BEGUN!! lol

Peace

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Great post. I'll spend some time going over it in my head. Chew on this for now. There is no compuslion in religon right? Islam is a choice? Then new borns have to be born agnostic.

 

[Shamshīr-Amir]

We prefer to be called reverts, since we believe everyone is born a Muslim. And in a sinless state, I might add, unlike many Christians believe.

I'm surprised it's only Islam used the term 'revert'. Any religion which believes it is the true religion (so all of them) should call people who join it from a different faith a 'revert'.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

We prefer to be called reverts, since we believe everyone is born a Muslim. And in a sinless state, I might add, unlike many Christians believe.

I'm surprised it's only Islam used the term 'revert'. Any religion which believes it is the true religion (so all of them) should call people who join it from a different faith a 'revert'.

If you are born Muslim then how is there no compulsion in Religion. How can Islam be a choice?

 

[Ali_Cena]

Hi Mick,

Great post. I'll spend some time going over it in my head. Chew on this for now. There is no compuslion in religon right? Islam is a choice? Then new borns have to be born agnostic.

You have that right there is no compulsion in Islam, but only when you are bringing others into it; which they feel Islam is not the truth, take for example the case of a girl in which you want to marry and she is not Muslim, and in order to marry her, she has to be a Muslim, she doesn’t want to become Muslims yet you force her into it, without her permission and that’s not allowed. See that case is right only when they are old enough the make that decision for themselves, by saying no I don't think Islam is the right religion then you want force them. But at newborn stage they can’t make decision and well, what’s more fair and just, going to hell without even knowing what’s going on or heaven? Are you going to complain to God for going to heaven? NEVER!!

Peace Mick, and good post.

 

[Ali_Cena]

If you are born Muslim then how is there no compulsion in Religion. How can Islam be a choice?

LOL at that stage you cant make that decision for yourselfs, you should be lucky that God has given you faith(made the decision for you temporarly; until you fully commit to that) so that you can atleast go to heaven, i mean it would be awkward if you go to heaven and you complain, and more unusual if you would go heaven (by not makeing decision and not being muslim) at newborn stage, then dieing, going to hell, and then not complaining about it.

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

LOL at that stage you cant make that decision for yourselfs, you should be lucky that God has given you faith(made the decision for you temporarly; until you fully commit to that) so that you can atleast go to heaven, i mean it would be awkward if you go to heaven and you complain, and more unusual if you would go heaven (by not makeing decision and not being muslim) at newborn stage, then dieing, going to hell, and then not complaining about it.

Peace

Are you suggesting that god gives everyone faith? Never having been a believer in any religion, I'd consider myself an exception to that.

Peace

 

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Greetings to you to Callum

Are you suggesting that god gives everyone faith?

yes;when you cant make that decision for yourself. The topic we are discussing right now are about newborn babies; as I am sure you are aware off. I just stated that at birth; when you cannot make decisions for yourself, you are clean, sinless, which means your soul has Imaan (faith) unconditionally, until you can start to make that decision for yourself. You can choose to stay on the right path, or become an atheist; like yourself.

Never having been a believer in any religion,

Well you see, when you were born pure and sinless, you did you did believe in God, and his oneness, but later on you choose (as you have a free-will) to become an atheist.

Peace

 

[Yanal]

I was born a Muslim so neither.
But to clarify revert means: someone who was an atheist who accepted Islam and convert means someone from another religion accepting Islam?
Please correct me.

 

[Ali_Cena]

Salaam brother,

You are mistaken, revert just means you have reverted back to the religion you converted from.

Whereas convert just means you convert from religion "A" to "B"

Revert just means comeing back. Whereas convert is going from "A" to "B"

It doesnt have to be coming from athiesm it can come from any religion or way of life.

Wasalaam brother.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Well you see, when you were born pure and sinless, you did you did believe in God, and his oneness

How can you possibly know that?

Peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

It's what he believes. It is a perfectly valid belief.

 

[Uthman]

It's what he believes. It is a perfectly valid belief.

Indeed, although it's not a belief which can be proven (or disproven for that matter) scientifically or logically. I believe it because Islam tells me it is true.