Let me see if I have this right...

[coddles76]

^I understand and I know you and I always agree to disagree but could you please explain to the crowd that if the Father the Son and the Holy spirit always existed before anything ever existed then why was it only ever mentioned when christianity was created. Why did not God (As in the trinitarian God) ever reveal himself and explain his 3 part nature ever before the creation of christianity?? The trinitarian God never exsisted before christianity and no one ever knew of him before this. I will pose the same question in the other thread aswell. Thanks

 

[Grace Seeker]

^I understand and I know you and I always agree to disagree but could you please explain to the crowd that if the Father the Son and the Holy spirit always existed before anything ever existed then why was it only ever mentioned when christianity was created. Why did not God (As in the trinitarian God) ever reveal himself and explain his 3 part nature ever before the creation of christianity?? The trinitarian God never exsisted before christianity and no one ever knew of him before this. I will pose the same question in the other thread aswell. Thanks

I think you mean the trinitarian understanding of God did not exist prior to Christianity, not that the trinitarian God did not exist. Am I correct in interpreting you thusly?

You see if we are correct that the God does exist in Trinity, then he has always existed in Trinity, even if he was not known or talked about that way until Christian era.

I'll await clarification before proceeding with my comments on where one sees hints of this in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[coddles76]

I think you mean the trinitarian understanding of God did not exist prior to Christianity, not that the trinitarian God did not exist. Am I correct in interpreting you thusly?

You see if we are correct that the God does exist in Trinity, then he has always existed in Trinity, even if he was not known or talked about that way until Christian era.

I'll await clarification before proceeding with my comments on where one sees hints of this in the Hebrew Bible.

Ok here is my clarification, What I would like to know and maybe you can explain to the crowd is that the trinitarian God never revealed himself unto man until the creation of Christianity, or more clearly until the chursh itself brang about this concept of God. So why is that God never revealed his trinitarian self to us before actually revealing it to the church of christainity? He never revealed his trinitarian nature to the Jews, nor to the followers of Ibraham, Nor to the followers of adam, nor to the followers of Noah, Nor to the followers of Muhammad PBUH all. So why did he only reveal himself to the followers of christianity and no one else? If he was always trinitarian by nature then I'm sure he would of revealed himself in this way right from the beginning which was during the time of Adam but that was never the case.

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

According to the oldest and most authentic copies of manuscripts and scrolls available throughout the centuries, Jesus, peace be upon him, never claimed to be God, or the creator, or the One to pray to, nor did he tell his followers to revere him as God. These notions appear on the lips of others who came along decades and even centuries later. While Jesus was on earth he did not claim to be the creator or ask us to revere him as God. His miraculous birth is a sign of his prophethood: “Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah, is the likeness of Adam. He (Allah) created him from dust and said “Be!” and he was” (Quran 3:59). Like all the great and noble prophets of Allah such as Adam, Abraham, Moses, Isaac and David, Jesus came with one message: Worship, love, obey and submit to the one true God, Allah, the creator of everything and do not worship anything besides Allah.
The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Christianity which was named after Jesus Christ, Buddhism after Gotama Buddha, Confucianism after Confucius, and Marxism after Karl Marx.
Islamis the true religion of "Allah" and as such, its name represents the central principle of Allah's "God's" religion; the total submission to the will of Allah "God"

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.
If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:
"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be save must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)

Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?

It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible. AM I LYING
SO what we see now is that It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.


It is funny to me The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" - yet the Bible says in I Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion..."
God is not the author of confusion and yet you are confused listen buddy islam is the true religion of ALLAH (GOD) STOP lying to your self you are only hurting your self...

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

SEE and the 100s and 100s of contradictions in the bible mean nothing because you Lord can make mistake??? or was it the writers that made the mistake and YOUR LORD let them do that ?????/???? well MY (our) LORD the TRUE GOD one and only cant let that happen to the Book Of GOD it must be perfect not one error not one contradiction not one at all but HIS words MUST BE PERFECT LIKE HE IS MAY ALLAH GUIDE US AND KEEPS US GUIDED
YOUR book says SEEK TRUTH AND YOU WILL FIND
well start seeking you are here so that is a good start
Allah promised to protect it: (We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it) (Al-Hijr 15:9).
[Will they not ponder the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.] (An-Nisaa’ 4: 82)

[If you have doubts about what We have sent down to Our servant, produce another surah equal to it, and call your witnesses, besides Allah, if you are telling the truth. If you do not do that – and you will not do it – then fear the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, made ready for the unbelievers. ] (Al-Baqarah 2: 23-24)
in 1400 years none could even the greatest poets so go study islam and come back and talk pls

 

[Grace Seeker]

According to the oldest and most authentic copies of manuscripts and scrolls available throughout the centuries, Jesus, peace be upon him, never claimed to be God, or the creator, or the One to pray to, nor did he tell his followers to revere him as God. These notions appear on the lips of others who came along decades and even centuries later. While Jesus was on earth he did not claim to be the creator or ask us to revere him as God.

I think you are mistaken about this.

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:16-17a
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him;

John 20:28-29
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


These passages show that Jesus accepted the disciples' worship of him, even accepted it when he was directly called God.




But there are plenty of places where Jesus utters words from his own mouth that also imply, even they don't directly state, his divinity:

John 1
49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."
50Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51He then added, "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

Jesus goes on to accept and use the designation of himself as the "Son of Man". (This was a Messianic title; it was not a reference to say that he was not divine.) And here you have a reference to Jacob's dream back in Genesis 28:12. Jesus is saying that he is Jacob's stairway to heaven.



John 8:58
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Simple, because in saying, "before Abrama was born, I am" Jesus was making a claim to be the God whose name was not even spoken by the Jews.




John 10:30-32
30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

Once again the people want to stone Jesus. Why? This time we don't even have to compose our own answer, the people answer Jesus directly:
John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."



Mark 15
61Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
They all condemned him as worthy of death.


Again, you have the use of Messianic titles ("the Christ", "Son of Man" and "Son of God"). Again you have Jesus being charged with blasphemy (i.e. charged with claiming to be God) because of what he has said. If Jesus had simply meant that he was a specially appointed persons sent from God, a prophet like his cousin John the Baptist, a son of God in the same way that all of humanity can claim to be a child of God, then those around him would have had no need to fear that he was committing blasphemy. He they had thought that he was deluded and insane, that he didn't know what he was talking about and mean it sincerely they also could not have condemned him to death, for the charge of blasphemy could not be levied at the insane or mentally deficient. It could only be charge against someone who was in their right mind enough to truly believe that what they were saying was true and who by it meant to claim the position that was reserved only for God and God alone. While you may not think that Jesus ever said that he was God, it is quite clear that the people around him were under no such misconceptions. They heard it with their own ears and they considered it blasphemy and worthy of death.

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

^^^^^^^^ You are confused but its ok not your fault excuses excuses keep tell your self I believe it because I was told to do so." i need rest and you are not really foucs see ya SALAM WA ALAKUM TO ALL MUSLIMS FIAMENILLAH MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN ISLAM
AS FOR U GS CYA NEXT TIME TAKE CARE

 

[Grace Seeker]

Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?

Well, it is neither English nor gibberish. It was written in Greek. And the WHAT? in question is simple. God the one and only, who is and was and who is to come. The beginning and the end. The Alpha and Omega. The first and the last. The one who died and who behold is alive forevermore.

In the letter to the Hebrews God himself refers to the Son as God. In Revelation we see that the the Son is God Almighty. You have your book. We have ours. Despite your unwillingness to see it, our book puts forth the idea that the creator of the all the universe is none other than the Christ. And that this same Christ was God born to dwell among us. It also identifies the Holy Spirit as God. And yet it also claims that there is but one and only one God. Since you don't accept our book you don't have to believe any of that. But please don't kid yourself into thinking that it isn't taught in our book. It is.

^^^^^^^^ You are confused but its ok not your fault excuses excuses keep tell your self I believe it because I was told to do so."

There is nothing confusing in any of those passages. If you are confused, it is because you don't want to see what they plainly put forth. But why worry about it? You don't accept the testimony of our written scriptures to be true anyway. You think of them as corrupted and not representing the truth. So, you have nothing to fear from seeing that they do indeed testify to Jesus having made claims to be divine after all. All you have to do is dismiss that they accurately record what Jesus actually said. Is the problem that you do see that according to these passages Jesus did claim to be God? And yet you've been taught your whole life that no such passages exist in our Bible, but now you see they do. If those who have taught you about Christianity have erred in these simple things that are there for anyone with eyes to see for themselves, I wonder what else they have erred in with regard to Christian teachings?

 

[coddles76]

I wonder what else they have erred in with regard to Christian teachings?

I guess the same can be said in regards to Islamic teachings.

Still waiting on the answer to my questiona and clarifications. Much appreciated.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ok here is my clarification, What I would like to know and maybe you can explain to the crowd is that the trinitarian God never revealed himself unto man until the creation of Christianity, or more clearly until the chursh itself brang about this concept of God. So why is that God never revealed his trinitarian self to us before actually revealing it to the church of christainity? He never revealed his trinitarian nature to the Jews, nor to the followers of Ibraham, Nor to the followers of adam, nor to the followers of Noah, Nor to the followers of Muhammad PBUH all. So why did he only reveal himself to the followers of christianity and no one else? If he was always trinitarian by nature then I'm sure he would of revealed himself in this way right from the beginning which was during the time of Adam but that was never the case.

Well, first, I don't think it is true that God would have necessarily revealed his whole nature right from the beginning. But we won't ever know. The only persons who would have known that are Adam and Eve and once they lost fellowship with God, then they would have been denied knowing him as fully as they once had when they experienced that fellowship with him in the Garden of Eden.

Certainly Noah didn't know God as well as Abraham, who didn't know God as well as Moses. Once people no longer had that intimate fellowship with God that we were created to have in the beginning, the ability of mankind to know God was severely retarded. But progressively, we do see God reveal himself to humankind through Abraham's descendents. I think he primarily makes himself known through the covenant he makes with the line of Abaham, Isaac and then Jacob, but he also makes himself known to Ishmael. And in time the covenant becomes codified at Sinai with Moses. Still it is not fully understood, and certainly not fully kept, by the nation of Israel. For this reason their is a succession of both judges and prophets who attempt to interpret what it means to live out this covenant relationship with God and with other people. Sometimes they come closer to doing so than others, but always they fail. And Jesus tells a parable about this -- the parable of the tenants in the vineyard (Matthew 21, Mark 12, Luke 20) -- that shows that the people ultimately rejected those that God sent in his name and would even reject God's own son as well. But the reason that Jesus comes when he does, and thus the answer to your question about why only do we learn what we learn in the Christian ere is a very simple "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" (Galatians 4:4-5). That's sort of a Christian version of answering by saying, "Allah knows best." And this is of course true. God does know best, and we have to trust him with his timing.



But one thing I might say is that Judaism while mono-theistic was able to be thoroughly mono-theistic and still incorporate the ideas that were expressed by Christendom. They were not as antagonistic to each other as many seem to think. I'll examine this for you some more if you want, as I suspect that perhaps this might be what you are ultimately asking -- How do Christians see their trinitarian ideas being consistent with the monotheism of the Jewish heritiage they claim to have inherited?

 

[Imam]

We never say there are three gods.

Indeed you say it, every time you try to mask the three gods (God the father ,the God Son ,the God holy spirit) with the word (persons)!....

If you claim a thousand times a believe in one God ,the one Jesus mentioned in : John 17:3
And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God
and yet putting partners with him in the Godhead (son and holy spirit) ,none(at least -muslims) is going to believe what you claim is in accordance with what you practice.

Yet this one God makes himself known to us in three persons..

or three beings ,no difference indeed..

How it is that God is three-in-one is a mystery.

three Gods in one God is not a mystery for non Trinitarians but a contradictory statement.. its second part (one indivisible God) negates the first (three Gods)...

But that he is a three-in-one divine being (singular), and not three seperate gods is very clear to us..

Not that clear ....

The father is not the son ,isn't it?
God The son was with God the father from the beginning,isn't it?
God the son was forsaken by the God father on the cross,isn't it?
God the son is sitting on the right hand of the God father,isn't it?

what logic to claim they are not seperated?!!

we have no problem saying what trinity isn't. It isn't three separate gods.

I'm afraid you still can't get what it isn't ..

IT ISN'T

A being , a person (if you wish to say) explicitly stated that he lacks qualities possessed by another person
eg;
Knowledge Mark 13:32,power John 5:19 ,goodness Mk 10:18

and yet we are asked to believe he is the same material of such other person.

IT ISN'T

A being ,person ascending unto another being,person calling him his God ,and will be sitting on his right hand ,and yet we are asked to believe he is the same being .
Have you ever imagined what the Only-begotten God Jesus is going to call the Only True God the father while sitting on his right hand? how will they begin to discuss matters and ex-change opinions?


Many other proof text against the Trinity , and few text (as understood by Trinitarians) for it...
So what? the best thing is to say The Bible teaches a self-contradictory concept in both proof text and logic.

 

[coddles76]

How do Christians see their trinitarian ideas being consistent with the monotheism of the Jewish heritiage they claim to have inherited?

Thanks GS, No not really, its not exactly what I was after but thanks for the attempt. I was merely trying to expand on your point about the trinitarian GOD that exsisted before life itself exsisted as per your claim. It just seems purely unfair and predjudice to me why GOD would only reveal himself to the christians. Why were they so Special? and if you want to claim that the timing was right during the christain Era then why didn't the Trinitarian GOD reveal himself to the prophet Muhammad PBUH who came after jesus and who was the most Influential prophet and messenger to ever exsist, it purely doesn't make sense. (And please don't try to claim that the trinitarian GOD did reveal himself to Muhammad, because that would be an insult to the intelligent muslim).

Certainly Noah didn't know God as well as Abraham, who didn't know God as well as Moses. Once people no longer had that intimate fellowship with God that we were created to have in the beginning, the ability of mankind to know God was severely retarded

Why didn't Noah know the trinitarian GOD? I mean he lived the longest life according to belief (Approx 900 Years) If anyone would have had enough time to know the trinitarian GOD it would of been Noah. He preached GOD's message for almost 900 Years with patience and I'm sure GOD would have been a good enough friend to reveal his true indentity, which goes back to my previous question above. Why were the christians so special?
Also the other mentioned prophets you noted above were of the 5 most respected and loved by GOD so why wouldn't he reveal himself to them? Were they not worthy enough? Still I really need to know, Why were the christians so worthy of knowing GOD and the people of Noah, abraham, Moses and Muhammad not worthy. There must of been something truly remarkably special about the christians for GOD to reveal himself to them and not to others. The muslims are the one's who are most intimate in there fellowship with GOD so why did GOD exclude them from his so called trinitarian nature. It truly sounds like GOD is being predjudice and racist which I truly don't think he is.

 

[Grace Seeker]

(And please don't try to claim that the trinitarian GOD did reveal himself to Muhammad, because that would be an insult to the intelligent muslim).

If the God that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship is the same God that Abraham worship then they all worship the same God. Given that these three religions have different beliefs regarding the nature of God, then though they do worship the same God the truth is that one or more of them simply has incorrect beliefs regarding the nature of God. As I don't think that any of us would claim that God's nature actually changed then don't the only options left have to include as a possible explanation the answer you don't want me to say? It is either
1) God is in fact not a tri-personal being and Christians erred when they explained their experience of him using this sort of language.
or
2) God is in fact a tri-personal being but Muhammed erred when he reported on God's revelation to him.
or
3) God is in fact a tri-personal being but chose not to reveal that aspect of himself to Muhammed.

 

[coddles76]

If the God that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship is the same God that Abraham worship then they all worship the same God. Given that these three religions have different beliefs regarding the nature of God, then though they do worship the same God the truth is that one or more of them simply has incorrect beliefs regarding the nature of God. As I don't think that any of us would claim that God's nature actually changed then don't the only options left have to include as a possible explanation the answer you don't want me to say? It is either
1) God is in fact not a tri-personal being and Christians erred when they explained their experience of him using this sort of language.
or
2) God is in fact a tri-personal being but Muhammed erred when he reported on God's revelation to him.
or
3) God is in fact a tri-personal being but chose not to reveal that aspect of himself to Muhammed.

Thanks once again GS but you have only targeted a very small quotation to my response above so in response to this in seems as though the GOD you are trying to promote is indecisive, He can't make up his mind and also seems very selective on who he reveals his indentity to. These are not the qualities of the almighty creator who created everything you and I have the pleasure of seeing and hearing. Secondly the monothesitic religions you mentioned above all worshiped the ONE god from abraham to Muhammad peace be with them, so I agree that GOD's nature never changed, its humans that changed his nature. The christians under the rule of constantine came together and changed that monotheistic creed to a one of a different nature. So once again why did the trinitarian GOD only reveal himself to the people of christendom and no one else? Why were they so special? Why did GOD select them and no one else.

1) God is in fact not a tri-personal being and Christians erred when they explained their experience of him using this sort of language.

I guess we need to look into the history of the roman empire and the council of nicea for that answer. The trinity was created during the rule of constantine who came together to speak on behalf of all of christendom and redefine the rules. They threw out a large part of jesus's teachings and only kept what they required for political reasons and power elevation. So this is very much a possibility

2) God is in fact a tri-personal being but Muhammed erred when he reported on God's revelation to him.

Thats not a possibility because Muhammad PBUH spoke of words not from his ownself. He was merely relaying the message exactly how Allah SWT revealed it to him word for word. Even your own bible confirms this.......

"I will raise them up a prophet among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall not hearken unto the words that he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

So its not a possibility that muhammad erred because that would mean that GOD erred and that is no way at all possible.

3) God is in fact a tri-personal being but chose not to reveal that aspect of himself to Muhammed.

That would go back to my orginal point in which that would make GOD predjudice and racist. Why were the people of christendom so far above the followers of Muhammad who is the the most respected and most influential messenger to exsist.

 

[Imam]

1) God is in fact not a tri-personal being and Christians erred when they explained their experience of him using this sort of language.

Christians erred and try to defend their error as the following example:

imagine nowadays emerged a group of people in Europe who read about Nazism and like their ideas,and are convinced that their ideology to be peaceful,tolerant ...just the people misunderstood it ......

Those new group decided to form a political party has the basic ideologies of Nazism but they named the party (the tolerance and peace makers)...

the party preached in every occasion with their own mouths that they work in accordance with the global definition of tolerance, but on the other hand they continually discriminate their minorities ,attack their neighbors ......

when they are to be accused of intolerance,they respond
(We Never say we are intolerant)
It is just the whole world doesn't understand what intolerance is !!.....
The world believe in a strict definition of tolerance!!

while the fact they don't understand what intolerance isn't..

And that is the twisted path, Trinitarians are following towards monotheism ...........

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thats not a possibility because Muhammad PBUH spoke of words not from his ownself. He was merely relaying the message exactly how Allah SWT revealed it to him word for word.

Or at least this is what Muhammed said was the case.

Even your own bible confirms this.......

"I will raise them up a prophet among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall not hearken unto the words that he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

Muslims are the only group of people who think this refers to Muhammad.

So its not a possibility that muhammad erred because that would mean that GOD erred and that is no way at all possible.

That makes sense if you accept the premise that Muhammad was God's chosen prophet and said all of what God told to him and only what God told to him, with none of his own thought mixed in. I know that you do. I do not.

That would go back to my orginal point in which that would make GOD predjudice and racist. Why were the people of christendom so far above the followers of Muhammad who is the the most respected and most influential messenger to exsist.

Why did God choose Abraham and not others? Why did God send Jesus to the Jews and not others? A great deal of the history of God's interaction with people involves him selecting only a small targeted group, and then that group is supposed to take the message to the world. Is this not exactly what you see with Muhammad? I would say that the trinitarian God is NOT restricted to just Christians, but that others do not always listen and see the full truth when God makes himself known to them.



Imam, there is probably some truth in what you say above. But I ask you to also see that our definition of Trinity ends with trying to affirm his oneness, more than it is about emphasizing the distinctiveness of the three persons. That is why I say it is monothesis and not tri-theism, but I understand that it does not fit your definition of monotheism. Even so, since we Christians see Jesus as God himself and not a partner to God, it is hard for me to understand why you accuse of associating partners with God. That is the last thing we would do unless you mean that we see ourselves as being called to partner with God as his servants in taking his message of salvation to the world.

 

[alcurad]

monotheism = not polytheism. any religion that has polytheistic descriptions of God is polytheistic, no?

 

[Imam]

monotheism = not polytheism. any religion that has polytheistic descriptions of God is polytheistic, no?

True , the same any ideology that has intolerant description of tolerance is intolerant ,no matter what amount of false claims of being tolerant by its adherents .
As a matter of fact, any sincere open-minded Christian would know that the Trinity has polytheistic descriptions of God and wish if such formula never be at all, rather (Just to be ,one person,one being,one God), but console himself with the word mystery(instead of nonsense),to be taken on pure faith.

The Nicene Creed formulated the dogma and Christians swallowed it completely!....