Being Gay

[Bittersteel]

Re: What are the rulings for these?!?

what are rulings on homosexuals?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

what are rulings on homosexuals?

As descibed in this thread you advise them first. Note the distinction between homosexuals and homosexual acts.

 

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

Does that make it right?

Not necessarily, but if people want to perform actions that will harm themselves and no-one else, I don't see why they shouldn't have the right to make that choice.

Sorry I wasn't able to find your answer. Could you point it out to me?

OK, here's what I wrote:

I agree that gay men could pleasure each other in a variety of ways and that could lead them to perform anal sex, just as incestuous couples may do something similar before being led to commit incestuous sex. For me, the distinction between the two comes from the fact that any diseases caught as a result of gay sex will affect the participants only, and that is a risk they should be allowed to take. When the risk of diseases affects someone who is not a consenting participant [i.e. the infant produced from incestuous union], that, to me, is wrong. This is why I oppose incest but not homosexuality.

Essentially I'm using one of the arguments you used to explain your opposition to homosexuality, but applying it to incestuous couples. Both activities contain risks to the health of the participants. However, with incest, the risks also apply to a person who has not consented to the action, i.e. the child that may be produced from such a union. I understand that not all incestuous sex will lead to childbirth, but the risk remains that the people involved will move towards fully consummated sex. Even if this involves contraception, that can sometimes fail and produce unwanted pregnancies. Therefore I would oppose any incestuous activity.

Because it simply demonstrates that homosexuals can pleasure eachother with reduced damage, but it doesn't negate the medical consequences involved.

OK, but there are also medical consequences that can arise from hetero-sex as well. Would you oppose that too?

That is, of course, beyond the scope of this thread.

Fair enough. I'd be interested to discuss it with you on another thread, but I can't think of an appropriate title.

I oppose homosexuality. I find it disappointing to see people being pushed further into misguidance.

So would you say you are intolerant of homosexuality?

I'm sure some would. But simply laughing at the views of others does nothing to disprove them. Let them laugh all they want, it is nothing more than an evasion from a factual discussion.

It would be an evasion, simply because, to gay people, there is no need for a discussion.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Callum,
I see you're catching up on many threads.

Not necessarily, but if people want to perform actions that will harm themselves and no-one else, I don't see why they shouldn't have the right to make that choice.

Simply because it is wrong. Harming anyone is morally wrong whether it is yourself or others.

Essentially I'm using one of the arguments you used to explain your opposition to homosexuality, but applying it to incestuous couples. Both activities contain risks to the health of the participants. However, with incest, the risks also apply to a person who has not consented to the action, i.e. the child that may be produced from such a union. I understand that not all incestuous sex will lead to childbirth, but the risk remains that the people involved will move towards fully consummated sex. Even if this involves contraception, that can sometimes fail and produce unwanted pregnancies. Therefore I would oppose any incestuous activity.

Even after that they still have the option of abortions. The point being that they are fully in control of the situation the whole time. You're making a judgement against them - that you feel that they are incapable of controlling themselves or making responsible judements. Is your judgement justified? Any argument you use against incentuous marriage can be turned around against homosexual marriage. The difference between you and I is that I oppose such things simply because I believe they are morally wrong. Do you oppose incentuous marriage because you believe it is morally wrong or because of something else?

Have you ever thought that one day society might accept incentuous marriage and your views would be regarded as bigoted?

 

[ummbilal]

Greetings,



I'm sorry, but that is just outrageous. Is that an authentic hadith? How can murder be less harmful than homosexuality?

This, on the other hand, is laughable:



Does anyone actually believe this?

Peace - even for gays.

Hello CZ, no closer then?

hmm

imagine you were living in medivial england, who would believe that the world was in fact one planet of many revolving around a star, infact a galaxcy one of maybe millions?

who would believe that washing away dirt prevented disease?
or that

once dinosaurs roamed the earth?

i think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone, so when Allahs Prophet saws tells us that anyone who dies kufr will have 2 snakes in his/her grave biting him continously until that day of reserection we believe it. because we cannot falt our prophet Muhammed saws, his character is exlempary.

do not mock us, you believe you were evolved from apes .........

 

[Far7an]

Assalamu alaikum

Thread re opened

 

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

Simply because it is wrong. Harming anyone is morally wrong whether it is yourself or others.

OK, we obviously disagree there. Harming others is wrong, I believe, but if someone wants to harm themselves that is up to them.

The difference between you and I is that I oppose such things simply because I believe they are morally wrong. Do you oppose incentuous marriage because you believe it is morally wrong or because of something else?

I think there's a fundamental difference between homosexual and incestuous relationships, as I've explained.

I oppose incestuous relationships because passing medical ailments onto an unconsenting person (a child produced form incestuous union) is morally wrong, as far as I can see. Just as you oppose any form of homosexual relationship (including those that may not include anal sex) because the temptation will always be there to go ahead with anal sex, I oppose non-sexual incestuous relationships because the temptation of full consummation will also be present.

Have you ever thought that one day society might accept incentuous marriage and your views would be regarded as bigoted?

An interesting idea which I've not considered before - I consider it massively unlikely because of the risks of disease for the unconsenting party.

Greetings Ummbilal,

I have to say, I'm not sure how your post relates to what I said. Let's have a look:

Hello CZ, no closer then?

Closer to what? Converting to Islam? I don't want to give anyone false hopes here - it's very unlikely I'll convert to theism, let alone anything else.

imagine you were living in medivial england, who would believe that the world was in fact one planet of many revolving around a star, infact a galaxcy one of maybe millions?

who would believe that washing away dirt prevented disease?
or that

once dinosaurs roamed the earth?

Not many people, for sure. What point are you making?

i think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone, so when Allahs Prophet saws tells us that anyone who dies kufr will have 2 snakes in his/her grave biting him continously until that day of reserection we believe it. because we cannot falt our prophet Muhammed saws, his character is exlempary.

I don't remember making reference to this two snakes idea, but now you mention it, has anyone actually checked every grave to make sure this is the case? I very much doubt it's true, but of course you're free to believe it if you think you have good reason to do so.

I made reference to two quotes in the post you quoted from. One was a hadith originally posted by Akhee, which said that homosexuals should be murdered (or words to that effect). I find this idea abhorrent, and I find it hard to believe that the Prophet (pbuh) would believe homosexuality was worse than murder. It now appears that the hadith may not be authentic.

The second quote was from one of the Prophet's (pbuh) companions, Ibn Abbas. Here it is:

Ibn Abbas said: "If a homosexual dies without repentance, he is changed into a pig in his grave." (Ibn Al-Jawzi)

This idea seems utterly ridiculous to me, and I have absolutely no hesitation in saying so. If you have any evidence that this does in fact happen, I'd love to hear about it.

do not mock us, you believe you were evolved from apes .........

Close - I believe that humans and apes have the same common ancestor. Seeing as we share around 95-98% of our genetic material with certain species of chimpanzee, I think it's likely to be true. Anyway, that's another debate.

Peace

 

[Prince_Ali_786]

it cant be genetic can it?....coz then wouldnt they be like wiped out coz obviously they wont have kids.....

Here's the thing. There is a difference between genetic and hereditary. Something you pass down to your children is hereditary, including your genes, however, due to some malfunctions in your conception, it is possible to have non hereditary genetic defects. According to the laws of genetics, lesbianism is actually IMPOSSIBLE, but research is inconclusive about homosexuality in men. The reason for this is that, as most of you know, girls are girls because they have two X chromosomes in their 23rd chromosomal pair. Whereas boys have an X and Y chromosome. Boys and girls are the exact same genetically until the sixth week of conception, which is when the Y chromosome kicks into action and triggers testerone, resulting in our physiological differences. The Y chromosome is what can potentially cause homosexual tendencies, which is why girls cannot attribute their homosexual tendencies to a genetic source. In males however, there can be a malfunction in conception called trisomy, in which case the 23rd chromosomal pair can have two X chromosomes and a Y chromosomes. In this case, the effect of the Y chromosome is not as prominent as it needs to be, which may be a cause. Another possibility is that the Y chromosome malfunctions and does not produce the sufficient amount of testosterone, resulting in the physiology of a male without the sufficient accompanying hormones. All of this is based on some speculation, but based on this homosexuality may have a genetic source.

 

[Prince_Ali_786]

If one doesn't want to accept that Islam doesn't allow homosexuality in it's followers then I'm glad I don't adopt the same attitude. If an individual decides they like the same sex then so be it - he/she is a non-believer (whether they call themselves a muslim or not)

I dont think it is your place to say whether or not they are muslim. That is up to Allah (SWT) alone. There can be many other reasons that you are not taking into consideration.

 

[anis_z24]

Salam
I advise you to stay away or mabe you will be like him.
Since your friends are your personal mirror.

 

[Prince_Ali_786]

I think that is completely absurd. Being friends with a gay person is not going to turn you gay. I dont believe its right either but being gay is not an easy thing to deal with for the gay person at all and people who just discover it are going through a lot. The last thing they need is to lose anymore friends over it. Is it also not taught in Islam to be tolerant, and not do anything that will hurt other people. At the end of the day, they are still human beings, and we need to be more tolerant, whether or not we respect their actions or not.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, Prince Ali,

According to the laws of genetics, lesbianism is actually IMPOSSIBLE, but research is inconclusive about homosexuality in men.

Very interesting - I've never heard this before. Lesbianism clearly exists, so either the laws of genetics are not true, or someone has interpreted them wrongly.

Having said that, genetics is a subject you probably know more about than I do.

Peace

 

[~Raindrop~]

salaam
hey you lot the punishment for this is mentioned in several Saheeh Hadiths. do we need more evidence? when Allah Most Great created Adam peace be upon him he also created for him a companion and partner. she was female. if sodomy was allowed then we would have been made aware.
wassalam

 

[libyanhero]

I agree with brother "Prince_Ali_786" and I see his argument and its pretty interesting, I am not in the field of science so I won't know whether he is exact on Lesbianism is Impossible but I also see it in a different way Lesbianism is deprivation of sexual intimacy

since women actual need the sex or romance, the affection is needed and why a women turns lesbian is not because she wants to but she needs affection, she needs to feel loved or she either hurt by men and hates the character in men from her point of view.

The man is sensitive, if he is not it means he gotta do some serious checking has a dead heart. Womens feelings are very very sensitive and man won't be able and cannot feel a womens sensitivity because that is how Allah made women, men have sensitivity but alot of them these days don't wanna go there because if a man feels hurt and wants to tear but then cant cuz he is machoman that is so wrong, just let it go.

If you get to know how sensitive the prophet was which made him unresistable to his wives, I bet your wives won't leave you one second.

Anyways women turn lesbian because of men who hurt them, abuse them, misuse them.

A woman is secure in a man's heart but a woman will never find security with another woman and there is plenty of reasons why women like a good man. Am I right ladies? lol or even close

 

[nafy]

A woman is secure in a man's heart but a woman will never find security with another woman and there is plenty of reasons why women like a good man. Am I right ladies? lol or even close

yeh.......true! well sed bro
u make ALOT of sense u know.......in all ur posts! mashallah!!

 

[~Raindrop~]

yeh.......true! well sed bro
u make ALOT of sense u know.......in all ur posts! mashallah!!

i agree :coolious: :loving:

 

[libyanhero]

jazakum allah khayr, I just need to know I am on the right track when I say these stuff and if I say anything wrong need to correct my view

 

[aamirsaab]

You lot should take up A2 psychology. You might learn something.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Anyways women turn lesbian because of men who hurt them, abuse them, misuse them.

Is that true in all cases, do you think? I'm not so sure.

Peace

 

[libyanhero]

You lot should take up A2 psychology. You might learn something.

you mean psychology or A2 lol, whats the A2 for: yah I am thinking of going psycho (lol kidding), yah its very useful and it will help alot of people in the future because I am sure I will have alot of customers in this constant corrupting world lol