Things in Islam I am curious about...

[doorster]

Re: Check it out

His username is doorster not doorsteps.

Jazakallah khair!! but do not worry about what they call me, It just shows that they are taking notice of me exposing their deviancy and distortions (despite being **censored, perhaps due to misapplication of verse: 29:46, I am managing to sneak in a blow or 2 every now and again)



** "And do not argue with the followers of earlier revelation otherwise than in a most kindly manner - unless it be such of them as are bent on evildoing [Sc., "and are therefore not accessible to friendly argument": the implication being that in such cases all disputes should as priority be avoided. As regards religious discussions in general, see 16:125.] - and say: "We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: or our God and your God is one and the same, and it is unto Him that We [all] surrender ourselves." (Asad)

16:125 CALL THOU (all mankind] unto thy Sustainer's path with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner- for, behold, thy Sustainer knows best as to who strays from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided. (Asad)

 

[Hugo]

Re: Check it out

Jazakallah khair!! but do not worry about what they call me, It just shows that they are taking notice of me exposing their deviancy and distortions (despite being **censored, perhaps due to misapplication of verse: 29:46, I am managing to sneak in a blow or 2 every now and again)

** "And do not argue with the followers of earlier revelation otherwise than in a most kindly manner - unless it be such of them as are bent on evildoing [Sc., "and are therefore not accessible to friendly argument": the implication being that in such cases all disputes should as priority be avoided. As regards religious discussions in general, see 16:125.] - and say: "We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: or our God and your God is one and the same, and it is unto Him that We [all] surrender ourselves."

16:125 CALL THOU (all mankind] unto thy Sustainer's path with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the most kindly manner- for, behold, thy Sustainer knows best as to who strays from His path, and best knows He as to who are the right-guided.

Sorry about you name but corrected now but exactly who is 'they' that you refer though I take it from you ref to 29:46 it's 'people of the book' and its nice to know you aim is not to share but to 'sneak' in blows and good to know you are the self-appointed one who will expose 'their' deviancy and distortions.

It's a bit odd really to find that it is not possible to seek Islam; one either has to take it or leave it and all question must therefore be based on 'deviancy' or 'distortions''. Pity I had hope to learn

 

[جوري]

Re: Check it out

If you want to follow up doorster post go to the following site as it has dozens of English Bible translations as well as many other languages including an Arabic one and I include the Arabic version below.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

2:3 (Arabic Life Application Bible)

3 وَبَارَكَ اللهُ الْيَوْمَ السَّابِعَ وَقَدَّسَهُ، لأَنَّهُ اسْتَرَاحَ فِيهِ مِنْ جَمِيعِ أَعْمَالِ الْخَلْقِ

Since jesus was Grecian and spoke Latin as it is the 'language of heaven' amongst many or a Galilean dialect of Chaldaic (J.J.Scaliger); Syriac (claude Saumaise); the dialect of Onkelos and Johnathan (Brian Walton); Greek (vossius); Hebrew (Delitzsch and Resch); Aramiac (Meyer), and even Latin. (Inchofer, for ''the Lord Cannot have used any other language upon earth, since this is the language of the saints in heaven'')
Schweitzer, PP 271, 275

one isn't surprised that that any bible would reflect the desired mythology of its writers, we can't find credibility therein, whether in Arabic or English, as it doesn't reflect the word of God, rather the word of men and isn't an object of comparison to anything Islamic for even the hadiths have a chain of Isnad that one can't find for any passage in the bible!

all the best

 

[doorster]

Re: Check it out

Sorry about you name but corrected now but exactly who is 'they' that you refer though I take it from you ref to 29:46 it's 'people of the book' and its nice to know you aim is not to share but to 'sneak' in blows and good to know you are the self-appointed one who will expose 'their' deviancy and distortions.

It's a bit odd really to find that it is not possible to seek Islam; one either has to take it or leave it and all question must therefore be based on 'deviancy' or 'distortions''. Pity I had hope to learn

it is not our job to make you Muslim, you either takes it or leaves it as per Surat alkafiroon (The Rejecters/Hiders of Truth)


P.S.
are you telling me that you really do not see the difference between Preaching and promotion of Christianity here and asking question to learn Islam?

 

[Hugo]

Re: Check it out

Since jesus was Grecian and spoke Latin as it is the 'language of heaven' amongst many or a Galilean dialect of Chaldaic (J.J.Scaliger); Syriac (claude Saumaise); the dialect of Onkelos and Johnathan (Brian Walton); Greek (vossius); Hebrew (Delitzsch and Resch); Aramiac (Meyer), and even Latin. (Inchofer, for ''the Lord Cannot have used any other language upon earth, since this is the language of the saints in heaven'')
Schweitzer, PP 271, 275

one isn't surprised that that any bible would reflect the desired mythology of its writers, we can't find credibility therein, whether in Arabic or English, as it doesn't reflect the word of God, rather the word of men and isn't an object of comparison to anything Islamic for even the hadiths have a chain of Isnad that one can't find for any passage in the bible!

all the best

So because there is an Isnad the content of a hadeeth is gospel? On this basis I might as well regard Moby Dick as from God as it is certain who wrote it.

If you cannot find credibility in the Bible then you are condemning what the Qu'ran commends as you must know.

 

[جوري]

Re: Check it out

So because there is an Isnad the content of a hadeeth is gospel?

I am afraid I don't understand what that means, it makes no sense on multiple levels.

On this basis I might as well regard Moby Dick as from God as it is certain who wrote it.

Did God in fact take credit for moby dick?

If you cannot find credibility in the Bible then you are condemning what the Qu'ran commends as you must know.

Not at all, the Injeel is the word of God, the books of john, larry, harry and Luke, aren't!.. until such a time you can find documents from the time of Jesus attributed directly to him and in his original tongue and not the dreams of Thomas, or the conversion of Paul, or the pigs of anthony, or the nightmares of jon of Arc can we take it seriousely as a document!


all the best

 

[Hugo]

Re: Check it out

I am afraid I don't understand what that means, it makes no sense on multiple levels.

[/COLOR]Not at all, the Injeel is the word of God, the books of john, larry, harry and Luke, aren't!.. until such a time you can find documents from the time of Jesus attributed directly to him and in his original tongue and not the dreams of Thomas, or the conversion of Paul, or the pigs of anthony, or the nightmares of jon of Arc can we take it seriousely as a document!
all the best

Please let me know where I can view a copy of the Injeel?

 

[جوري]

Re: Check it out

Please let me know where I can view a copy of the Injeel?

I don't believe there are any in existence.. further, it wouldn't matter either way, since Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.. whether or not they hopped on that train is of little to no consequence.. some of them managed in keeping with the laws of the OT, the same can't be said of christians and one wonders in the end what the message of Jesus was at all?

if it is to eat sins of those who believe in him, then all is good, Muslims I believe give more reverence to jesus than christians do making him into bratz dolls and thrice the adulterer according to Lutherans with Mary Magdalene..

now, we have Major scribal alterations 7:53-8:11, additions in 3:22, harmonization and discrepancy between manuscript.. for more on the topic pls read: B.D Eherman .'The Orthodox corruption of scripture' This is touching only on the orthodox church and doesn't begin to cover the other factions.

I am indeed pressed for time and have less than 5 mins of a break left.. but I am sure you get the pic.
For most it is a clear, if you wanted a book of guidance, you set up some stringent criteria and see which fulfills it as well goes with human nature, and is sound to both the heart and the mind.. I am afraid neither Moby Dick nor the bible fall into that category!

but both are an interesting read..

this will be my last post to you here, but feel free to carry on this discussion with other members..

all the best

 

[Hugo]

Re: Check it out

I don't believe there are any in existence.. further, it wouldn't matter either way, since Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.. whether or not they hopped on that train is of little to no consequence.. some of them managed in keeping with the laws of the OT, the same can't be said of christians and one wonders in the end what the message of Jesus was at all?

now, we have Major scribal alterations 7:53-8:11, additions in 3:22, harmonization and discrepancy between manuscript.. for more on the topic pls read: B.D Eherman .'The Orthodox corruption of scripture' This is touching only on the orthodox church and doesn't begin to cover the other factions. all the best

Let us be clear here, you stated that the Injeel was the word of God and now you say there are none in existence - it follows logically you believe in a book or books that you have never seen. Is this the Islamic position, Muslim's believe in books they have never seen. Please explain?

 

[جوري]

Re: Check it out

Let us be clear here, you stated that the Injeel was the word of God and now you say there are none in existence - it follows logically you believe in a book or books that you have never seen. Is this the Islamic position, Muslim's believe in books they have never seen. Please explain?

Find me the complete and original work of SAPPHO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho

and then we can have this conversation as I am not quite sure you understand how logic works!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

Re: Check it out

Originally Posted by Hugo
Let us be clear here, you stated that the Injeel was the word of God and now you say there are none in existence - it follows logically you believe in a book or books that you have never seen. Is this the Islamic position, Muslim's believe in books they have never seen. Please explain?

Find me the complete and original work of SAPPHO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho

and then we can have this conversation as I am not quite sure you understand how logic works!

all the best

It is always a simple ploy to avoid answering a question by asking another one. So I will use the same technique, my question was: is the Islamic position that Muslims (and you) believe in the Injeel but they (you) have never seen them. Please answer this time.

 

[Follower]

Gossamer you said about the Gospel- I don't believe there are any in existence

Why did Allah/Mohammad say?:

5:47
And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers

According to this verse the Gospel was in existence when Mohammad was alive in the 600's AD and needed to be used by those who follow it.

 

[جوري]

Re: Check it out

It is always a simple ploy to avoid answering a question by asking another one. So I will use the same technique, my question was: is the Islamic position that Muslims (and you) believe in the Injeel but they (you) have never seen them. Please answer this time.

I thought the example is perfectly legitimate.
the way I believe that Sappho is a poetess and much of her work was lost, I believe also that the Injeel talked about in the Quran is lost.

Now, the question is, how can you take Islamic scriptures to make a point for Christianity-- what is your hope with that one given have many verses speak of your grave error of associating a man with God?
You can't really cherry pick the verses that appeal to you and forgo the rest. The Quran is a done deal and there is no room for christian re-interpretations!

Your questions have been answered, you on the other hand are unwilling to accept the answer given you, and there is nothing anyone can do about that.. It is your belief which you can't even substantiate it against its own self, let alone of others!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

Re: Check it out

I thought the example is perfectly legitimate.
the way I believe that Sappho is a poetess and much of her work was lost, I believe also that the Injeel talked about in the Quran is lost.

Now, the question is, how can you take Islamic scriptures to make a point for Christianity-- what is your hope with that one given have many verses speak of your grave error of associating a man with God?
You can't really cherry pick the verses that appeal to you and forgo the rest. The Quran is a done deal and there is no room for christian re-interpretations!

Your questions have been answered, you on the other hand are unwilling to accept the answer given you, and there is nothing anyone can do about that.. It is your belief which you can't even substantiate it against its own self, let alone of others!

all the best

salaam

well said

peace

 

[Zafran]

it follows logically you believe in a book or books that you have never seen

This is hypocritical especailly coming from a christain - have you ever seen Jesus pbuh, Moses, Mark, Matthew, John - so you believe in people that you havent seen - wait isnt that most of history - we believe in things which we have not seen yet we believe or even "know" they existed.

 

[Wyatt]

why does islam prohibit music?

there are logical reasons we can give, but the truth is that the command of Allah and his messenger (saws) is enough for us,

But, in Súra 29 (Ankabút) - Verse 8:

"We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to Me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did."

Wouldn't it follow the logic that Allah believes one should have confident reason to or not to do something instead of mindlessly submitting to His (or one's parents') will just because 'He(/they) said so'? That is how I have interpreted it.

 

[doorster]

But, in Súra 29 (Ankabút) - Verse 8:

"We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to Me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did."

Wouldn't it follow the logic that Allah believes one should have confident reason to or not to do something instead of mindlessly submitting to His (or one's parents') will just because 'He(/they) said so'? That is how I have interpreted it.

I am not rabidly anti music (nor do I own any, play any), even though I do not want to defend the people (of either extreme) who are obsessed with it, however, I would like to defend Quran (against your misuse of it),

as far as I can make out from various tafasir, This ayat has nothing to do with taqleed of any sort, it was sent after a boy was accused of being disobedient to his mother by becoming Muslim against her wishes

وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ حُسْنًا وَإِن جَاهَدَاكَ لِتُشْرِكَ بِي مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ فَلَا تُطِعْهُمَا إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ 29:8
​

(29:8) We have enjoined man to do good to his parents, but if they force you to associate with Me another (deity) whom you do not know (as such), you should not obey them."

*11 You have all to return to Me: then I shall tell you what you had been doing *12*11


According to Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ahmad, Abu da'ud and Nasa`i, this verse was Sent down in respect of Hadrat Sa`d bin Abi Waqqas. He was 18 or 19 years old when he embraced Islam. When his mother, Hamnah, daughter of Sufyan bin Umayyah (neice of Abu Sufyan), came to know that her son had become a Muslim, she said, "I will neither eat nor drink nor sit in shade unless you disown Muhammad. The rights of the mother are supermost even according to Allah's Command. Therefore if you disobey me, you will be disobeying Allah too."

Hadrat Sa'd was perplexed and came before the Holy Prophet and told his whole story. At this, this verse was revealed. Possibly other young men who embraced Islam in the initial stage at Makkah were also confronted with similar situations. Therefore, the same theme has been repeated forcefully in Surah Luqman: 15 also. What the verse means to impress is this: The rights of the parents, among the creation of Allah, are to be held as the supreme, but even if the parents force a person to adopt shirk, they should not be obeyed. The words, "If both of them force you to associate..." imply that a lesser pressure, or a pressure by either of them, deserves to be set aside much more promptly. The next sentence, ".... whom you do not know (as such)," is also noteworthy.

This gives a sound reason for not obeying the parents in this regard. The parents certainly have the right that the children should serve them, respect them, and obey them in lawful things. But they do not have the right that one should obey them blindly against one's knowledge of the reality. Therefore, there is no reason why a person should go on following his parents' religion just because it is their religion. If the children come to know that their parents are following a false religion, they should give it up and adopt the right religion. and should not follow the wrong way whose falsehood has become clear to them even if the parents use every kind of pressure for it. When this is so in the case of even the parents, it should be so with every other person, too. No one deserves to be followed and obeyed unless one is sure that the person being followed is on the right path.

*12 That is, "The relationships of the world and their obligations are confined to the world. At last, the parents as well as the children have to return to their Creator, and before Him everybody will be held answerable only on the basis of his personal responsibility. If the parents have misled the children, they will be called to account . If the children have accepted deviation for the sake of the parents, they will be punished. And if the children adopted the right way, and showed no slackness in rendering the parents' lawful rights either, but the parents ill-treated them only for the reason that they did not join them in their deviation, they will not be able to escape Allah's punishment."

 

[Follower]

Gossamer says -Your questions have been answered, you on the other hand are unwilling to accept the answer given you, and there is nothing anyone can do about that.. It is your belief which you can't even substantiate it against its own self, let alone of others!

Your answer doesn't jive. You are sayng one thing and your Quran is saying something different.

Mohammad didn't say the people of the book need to judge by the Gospel that has not been corrupt or the part that is not missing.

Gossamer asks-'how can you take Islamic scriptures to make a point for Christianity'

It can only be one way- either Muslims are wrong when they say the Gospel is corrupt or the Quran is wrong to say the people of the Book must judge by the Gospel.

If the Quran is truly the word of GOD then it must be the Muslim that is wrong when they say the Gospel is corrupt.

 

[جوري]

Don't we have laws against spam on this forum?

 

[doorster]

Don't we have laws against spam on this forum?

to get round the rules against preaching and spam; all they have to do is to claim to being "curious about Islam"