Things in Islam I am curious about...

:sl:
....

If Allah knows our hearts, as others have expressed, then why would one have to do or say anything?
For your own sake. There's this saying in Islam: place your trust in Allah, but don't forget to tie the camel - meaning, you make dua but you also perform an action. Or a better example is: pray to God to help you in your exams BUT also revise for the exams - you aren't going to pass your exams if you don't prepare for them :D

If one returns to belief in Allah in accordance with the ways of Islam, then how would one still be considered guilty of shirk? Would that not be, colloquially speaking, "water under the bridge"?
Essentially it would. The whole point of repentance is to absolve (or rinse oneself of) guilt. That is the general idea anyway. Of course, at the end of the day it is down to the will of Allah.

And what happens if the sin is only "minor shirk", but one dies in that state? Would one then be prevented from entering Allah's presence because one is guilty of shirk?
Since minor shirk does not take you out of the fold of Islam (though it is considered a large sin) I don't think this would neccessarily prevent one from entering Paradise (I believe that is what you are referring to when you say entering Allah's presence) But as before and always, it is down to Allah's will.
 
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Perhaps it would also help if we actually stated what the conditions of repentance are. They are:

1. Leaving the sin;
2. Remorse over having committed the sin;
3. Resolve never to return to the sin;
(4) If it relates to the rights of another person, then to return the rights e.g. property one wrongly took.


I see the conditions as being indicators of one's sincerity. For example, it is impossible that you are sincerely sorry but you do not leave the sin (condition one).
 
I see the conditions as being indicators of one's sincerity. For example, it is impossible that you are sincerely sorry but you do not leave the sin (condition one).
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I don't know if that's not a bit simplistic.
What about people who desperately try to leave sinful behaviours such as drug or sexual sin? Many seem to be very remorseful and desperate to stop their behaviours, but they get caught up in them again and again ...
Sometimes is can take years or a lifetime to leave that sin.

Would you say that those people simply aren't sincere enough?
Can we make such a judgment without having walked in somebody's shoes? :?

Imagine you had a sin, which you were desperate to leave behind and kept failing to - and other people just told you that you weren't sincere enough ...
Would you feel hurt? Perhaps even patronised? Unsupported?

Peace
 
Hi glo
I don't know if that's not a bit simplistic.
What about people who desperately try to leave sinful behaviours such as drug or sexual sin? Many seem to be very remorseful and desperate to stop their behaviours, but they get caught up in them again and again ...
Sometimes is can take years or a lifetime to leave that sin.

Would you say that those people simply aren't sincere enough?
Can we make such a judgment without having walked in somebody's shoes? :?

Imagine you had a sin, which you were desperate to leave behind and kept failing to - and other people just told you that you weren't sincere enough ...
Would you feel hurt? Perhaps even patronised? Unsupported?
Perhaps you're right. What I stated wasn't an official scholarly position and of course it isn't the place of a Muslim to judge another Muslim. What is important is that you strive and try your utmost best (Jihad!) to leave the sin. These are general conditions that are to be met for Allah to grant forgiveness but as the very first hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari states: Actions are by intentions (i.e. Allah judges our actions by their intentions) so we should make a firm, sincere intention to leave the sin and we will be rewarded for doing Jihad to leave the sin.
 
Perhaps it would also help if we actually stated what the conditions of repentance are. They are:

1. Leaving the sin;
2. Remorse over having committed the sin;
3. Resolve never to return to the sin;
(4) If it relates to the rights of another person, then to return the rights e.g. property one wrongly took.


I see the conditions as being indicators of one's sincerity. For example, it is impossible that you are sincerely sorry but you do not leave the sin (condition one).

I very much agree with all of this but there are cases where oner cannot reverse what has happened (murder) and of course on earth one might still have to accept punishment or in simple terms repentance cannot cannot remove the consequences of your actions. So all I would add is that repentance must cause you to move forward in a better and more worthy and useful life for God. In Colossians 3 (New International Version) we find:

5. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10. and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

 
I very much agree with all of this but there are cases where oner cannot reverse what has happened (murder) and of course on earth one might still have to accept punishment or in simple terms repentance cannot cannot remove the consequences of your actions. So all I would add is that repentance must cause you to move forward in a better and more worthy and useful life for God. In Colossians 3 (New International Version) we find:

5. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10. and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Thanks Hugo. I just want to mention out of interest, regarding murder, that the family of the deceased can be compensated with blood money as an alternative to punishment.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

For the children of Israel the punishment for crime was Al-Qisas only (i.e., the law of equality in punishment) and the payment of Blood money was not permitted as an alternate. But Allah said to this nation (Muslims): 'O you who believe! Qisas is prescribed for you in case of murder, .....(up to) ...end of the Verse. (2.178)

Ibn 'Abbas added: Remission (forgiveness) in this Verse, means to accept the Blood-money in an intentional murder. Ibn 'Abbas added: The Verse: 'Then the relatives should demand Blood-money in a reasonable manner.' (2.178) means that the demand should be reasonable and it is to be compensated with handsome gratitude.

Sahih Al-Bukhari - Volume 9, Book 83, Number 20:
 
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Thanks Hugo. I just want to mention out of interest, regarding murder, that the family of deceased can be compensated with blood money as an alternative to punishment.
Yes, I've seen this done and find it highly curious to think that money can pay for a person's life. But I don't suppose it really is meant that way. And I definitely think it is better than people who try to get "justice" by simply turning one death into a back and forth never ending vendetta between families, tribes, countries.


Oooops! Sorry, broke my own rule about injecting comment, rather than just asking questions. So, here's a question. Can I be forgiven for breaking my own rule here? And is it enough to ask it of all of you or must I also ask it of Allah.


That's a serious question. My own actions just give an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about. For instance, people commit a crime, such as murder. They seek forgiveness from the family of the murdered victim. Does that end it? Or must one also seek Allah's forgiveness for the act?

And how about vice versa? If one repents and seeks Allah's forgiveness, is that enough? I'm thinking that there may be times when the victim is better served without having to me her victimizer a second time, even if they are sincerely sorry, it might be too much for a person who was brutalized by her attacker to have to recall in order to grant forgiveness.
 
Yes, I've seen this done and find it highly curious to think that money can pay for a person's life. But I don't suppose it really is meant that way. And I definitely think it is better than people who try to get "justice" by simply turning one death into a back and forth never ending vendetta between families, tribes, countries.


Oooops! Sorry, broke my own rule about injecting comment, rather than just asking questions. So, here's a question. Can I be forgiven for breaking my own rule here? And is it enough to ask it of all of you or must I also ask it of Allah.


That's a serious question. My own actions just give an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about. For instance, people commit a crime, such as murder. They seek forgiveness from the family of the murdered victim. Does that end it? Or must one also seek Allah's forgiveness for the act?

And how about vice versa? If one repents and seeks Allah's forgiveness, is that enough? I'm thinking that there may be times when the victim is better served without having to me her victimizer a second time, even if they are sincerely sorry, it might be too much for a person who was brutalized by her attacker to have to recall in order to grant forgiveness.

The first priority is always to seek forgiveness from all sins from Allah. Than one should try to mend relations with a person they have hurt, by saying sorry and asking their forgiveness.

In the situation where the victimizer cannot meet with the victim for various reasons, he or she should still be repentant in his heart to Allah. The main thing is getting Allah's forgiveness. Islam also encourages forgiveness, but some people have hard time forgiving. For example, person A hurts person B and person C hurts person D. Person B is a righteous person and is willing to forgive person A, but person D has a hard heart. Now both person A and person C committed the exact same sin, but does it mean only one of them should have an easier time getting forgiveness just because the person he hurt is more forgiving. Think about it, wouldn't hurting a righteous person like person B make the sin ever more severe than hurting a very hard hearted person like person D?

Therefore, the answer to this dilemma is that first one should seek forgiveness from Allah and make an effort to get forgiveness from the one you have harmed. However, the one you have harmed may or may not forgive you, and they forgiving you it totally out of your power. But Allah is the Most Merciful God, He will forgive those people who truly repent to Him in the bottom of their heart.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful


Salaam/peace


... If one repents and seeks Allah's forgiveness, is that enough?

I read some opinions like that if you hurt a person , take his/her property or slander him/her , unless s/he forgives , God won't forgive you.

But I did not find any such verse in Quran. Allah repeatedly tell us to ask for forgiveness & assured that He will forgive us :) Praise be to God only.

I guess , those who think like that meant if I take one's property & don't give it back & just say , O God , I am sorry ...it does not mean the real repentance ( come from wrong to right path). To prove that I am really sorry , I must return his/her property & establish the right of the victim ; thus I must prove that my repentance is sincere .


And Allah Almighty knows best.


related verse :

(Say, O Prophet: God declares to humanity: O My servants! Those of you who have committed sins in great excess against their own souls, never despair of the mercy of God!

For, indeed, God forgives sins, one and all. Indeed, it is He alone who the All-Forgiving, the Mercy-Giving. So turn in repentance to your Lord.

And submit yourselves willingly - before there comes to you the torment of God's Judgment. For, then, you shall not be helped.) (Az-Zumar 39: 53-54).

links :

When Will the Gate of Repentance Be Blocked?

The Door of Repentance Is Wide Open

- Repentance for Major and Minor Sins

.http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233567622799&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar
 
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ALLAH is almighty unlike when the Jews said "He rested on the seventh day", the Qur'an said "walaqad khalaqna al samawat wal arda wa baynahuma fe settati ayyam wa massana men loghoob" to correct their false understanding.


What do you mean by this statement?

How does the statement, "He rested on the seventh day" reduce Allah's (God's, Yahweh's) almightiness?

What do you understand to be the meaning of "he rested on the seventh day"? Do see this as implying "tiredness"? Because it doesn't in the original context and language?

Can you please provide an English interpretation of the arabic you quoted or at least a verse reference so that I can look up the interpretation?
 
How does the statement, "He rested on the seventh day" reduce Allah's (God's, Yahweh's) almightiness?

Ok, can anyone else see the problem here?.
Why does God have to rest?

What do you understand to be the meaning of "he rested on the seventh day"? Do see this as implying "tiredness"? Because it doesn't in the original context and language?

Here's the story according to the commentary of the Quran. The high priests of the Jews of Madina used to come to the prophet muhammad(pbuh) to ask him questions that only a true prophet would know the answers to.

One time they asked him about the creation of the world and so the prophet(pbuh) waited for revelation and then answered them correctly (1st day this and that, 2nd day, 3rd day...etc...till the 6th day).
The jews then replied to him that he said the truth, except that they added that he forget to mention about the seventh day where GOD rested, so the prophet(pbuh)'s face reddened from anger at what they said(because obviously they both knew what that implied, which was GOD resting from tiredness), and then the verse I referred to was revealed.
You can refer to it in your translated Qur'an, if you have one, for more detail since I was reciting from memory. you'll find it in Surah(50) Qaf, verses(37-38). (Note: verse 38 clearly affirms that their understanding was that GOD rested since he needed rest after all the work).
 
You can refer to it in your translated Qur'an, if you have one, for more detail since I was reciting from memory. you'll find it in Surah(50) Qaf, verses(37-38). (Note: verse 38 clearly affirms that their understanding was that GOD rested since he needed rest after all the work).


[50:37] This should be a lesson for everyone who possesses a mind, or is able to hear and witness.

[50:38] We have created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them in six days, and no fatigue touched us.

I can see that it says that the Islamic view is that God would not have been tired and needed rest as a result of creation. But I don't see where is "clearly affirms that their [the Jewish] understanding was that God...needed rest." Where is that expressed either in the Qur'an or by the Jews themselves?
 
"clearly affirms that their [the Jewish] understanding was that God...needed rest."

Please don't start the "only Qur'an no commentary rule", I told you about the situation and how the prophet(pbuh) reacted, about the verses, go to verse 39
it says "and be patient at what they say...." which means don't get angry at what falsehood they say about this attribute of God.

Now from my understanding that there are several instances in the OT where GOD is described in anthromorphic ways, from what I recall, things like "waking up like a drunk man..." and several others(correct me if I'm wrong).
And about the story of Jacob(Israel) wrestling with God.

The commentary is a historical document, so this qualifies as neutral proof to the understanding of the jews (i.e. you can't argue that this is from the Qur'an), if the jews had objections to this understanding then it would have been mentioned, but it seems they didn't have any.
 
Please don't start the "only Qur'an no commentary rule", I told you about the situation and how the prophet(pbuh) reacted, about the verses, go to verse 39
it says "and be patient at what they say...." which means don't get angry at what falsehood they say about this attribute of God.

Now from my understanding that there are several instances in the OT where GOD is described in anthromorphic ways, from what I recall, things like "waking up like a drunk man..." and several others(correct me if I'm wrong).
And about the story of Jacob(Israel) wrestling with God.

The commentary is a historical document, so this qualifies as neutral proof to the understanding of the jews (i.e. you can't argue that this is from the Qur'an), if the jews had objections to this understanding then it would have been mentioned, but it seems they didn't have any.

You may be making a fundamental error in reading any text at all in assuming that everything has to be taken literally and understood in modern terms. This is true also of the Qu'ran and there are many instances where a literal reading is impossible.

I know of no verse that speaks as you suggest but give us the reference and we can see what the Bible might say there. In the case of Jacob the story is well known and though Christians and Jews consider him in some sense wrestling with God no one take that in any literal sense. There are times when we all wrestle with God for example, when things go badly wrong in our lives for no apparent fault of our own and invariably we struggle with God and with our faith.

In the Genesis 2:2 case earlier where we hear that God "rested" but such a verse is easily understood as God giving an example to us of what we should do after work. Indeed in other places we are told: NIV Isaiah 40:28 "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."

You see this has to be understood in spiritual terms otherwise you end up with impossibilities - here what are 'the ends of the earth' or the Qu'ran talks about brocaded Sofas in Heaven and if these verses mean anything it is a spiritual reality not a literal one.
 
You may be making a fundamental error in reading any text at all in assuming that everything has to be taken literally and understood in modern terms. This is true also of the Qu'ran and there are many instances where a literal reading is impossible.

I know of no verse that speaks as you suggest but give us the reference and we can see what the Bible might say there. In the case of Jacob the story is well known and though Christians and Jews consider him in some sense wrestling with God no one take that in any literal sense. There are times when we all wrestle with God for example, when things go badly wrong in our lives for no apparent fault of our own and invariably we struggle with God and with our faith.

In the Genesis 2:2 case earlier where we hear that God "rested" but such a verse is easily understood as God giving an example to us of what we should do after work. Indeed in other places we are told: NIV Isaiah 40:28 "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."

You see this has to be understood in spiritual terms otherwise you end up with impossibilities - here what are 'the ends of the earth' or the Qu'ran talks about brocaded Sofas in Heaven and if these verses mean anything it is a spiritual reality not a literal one.

First of all, I don't speak based on personal opinion. This is what the Qur'anic commentary says(Tafsir al jalalayn).
So, I would like either you or Grace or anyone else for that matter to point me out to a well recognized biblical commentary that elaborates on the issue, and let that be the judge on what the meaning of the verses is.

Second, In Islam we believe that the descriptions of heaven are Literal, again this is not my personal opinion, but the consensus of most scholars, I don't see a problem with having brocaded sofas in heaven ;).
 
Re: No one can take everything literally

First of all, I don't speak based on personal opinion. This is what the Qur'anic commentary says(Tafsir al jalalayn).
So, I would like either you or Grace or anyone else for that matter to point me out to a well recognized biblical commentary that elaborates on the issue, and let that be the judge on what the meaning of the verses is.

Second, In Islam we believe that the descriptions of heaven are Literal, again this is not my personal opinion, but the consensus of most scholars, I don't see a problem with having brocaded sofas in heaven ;).

My main point in my earlier post has nothing to do with commentaries it just stated what is obvious; that one cannot take everything you read literally. One of you own great scholars, Ibn Rushd made the same point 800 years ago when he said with perfect logic "If the plain meaning of the words are clear but don’t make sense then the writer must have meant something else (one cannot read any text literally)"

There are probably tens of 1,000s of Biblical commentaries (just as there are 1000s of Quranic ones) so take your pick and look at say http://www.biblestudytools.com/ where you will find many you can brows at any time. Christians look at commentaries but their focus is on what God has said not on what some commentator, however eminent has said about what God has said.

It is not an issue for me that you think heaven has many billions of brocaded sofas (do you know how many Muslims there are) and if you want to take it literally that is a matter for you but by the same token, and it seem more reasonable, I take it as spiritual and poetic meaning heaven is comfortable etc that heaven is beyond our imagination.
 
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Salaam/Peace



Umm...I read about it long ago . Some translators wrote in Bible that on the 7th day , God rested . May be , it's a wrong translation ???
:sl:
<< Genesis 2:3 >>


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then God blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation.

King James Bible
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

American King James Version
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

American Standard Version
And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.

Bible in Basic English
And God gave his blessing to the seventh day and made it holy: because on that day he took his rest from all the work which he had made and done.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Darby Bible Translation
And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it.

English Revised Version
And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it: because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.

Webster's Bible Translation
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

World English Bible
God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy, because he rested in it from all his work which he had created and made.

Young's Literal Translation
And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making.
comment2-1.gif

Geneva Study Bible
And God blessed the seventh day, and {c} sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
(c) Appointed it to be kept holy, that man might in it consider the excellency of his works and God's goodness toward him.

Wesley's Notes
2:1-3 We have here,
(1.) The settlement of the kingdom of nature, in God's resting from the work of creation, Ge 2:1,2. Where observe,
1. That the creatures made both in heaven and earth, are the hosts or armies of them, which speaks them numerous, but marshalled, disciplined, and under command. God useth them as his hosts for the defence of his people, and the destruction of his enemies.
2. That the heavens and the earth are finished pieces, and so are all the creatures in them. So perfect is God's work that nothing can be added to it or taken from it, Eccl 3:14.
3. That after the end of the first six days, God ceased from all work of creation. He hath so ended his work, as that though in his providence he worketh hitherto, John 5:17. preserving and governing all the creatures, yet he doth not make any new species of creatures.
4. That the eternal God, tho' infinitely happy in himself, yet took a satisfaction in the work of his own hands. He did not rest as one weary, but as one well - pleased with the instances of his own goodness.
(2.) The commencement of the kingdom of grace, in the sanctification of the sabbath day, Ge 2:3. He rested on that day, and took a complacency in his creatures, and then sanctified it, and appointed us on that day to rest and take a complacency in the Creator; and his rest is in the fourth commandment made a reason for ours after six days labour. Observe,

  1. That the solemn observation of one day in seven as a day of holy rest, and holy work, is the indispensable duty of all those to whom God has revealed his holy Sabbaths.
  2. That Sabbaths are as ancient as the world.
  3. That the Sabbath of the Lord is truly honourable, and we have reason to honour it; honour it for the sake of its antiquity, its great author, and the sanctification of the first Sabbath by the holy God himself, and in obedience to him, by our first parents in innocence.
King James Translators' Notes
created...: Heb. created to make

Scofield Reference Notes
[1] sanctified
In the O.T. the same Hebrew word (qodesh) is translated sanctify, consecrate, dedicate, and holy. It means, set apart for the service of God. See refs. following "Sanctify," See Scofield Note: "Gen 2.3".

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
3. blessed and sanctified the seventh day-a peculiar distinction put upon it above the other six days, and showing it was devoted to sacred purposes. The institution of the Sabbath is as old as creation, giving rise to that weekly division of time which prevailed in the earliest ages. It is a wise and beneficent law, affording that regular interval of rest which the physical nature of man and the animals employed in his service requires, and the neglect of which brings both to premature decay. Moreover, it secures an appointed season for religious worship, and if it was necessary in a state of primeval innocence, how much more so now, when mankind has a strong tendency to forget God and His claims?

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
2:1-3 After six days, God ceased from all works of creation. In miracles, he has overruled nature, but never changed its settled course, or added to it. God did not rest as one weary, but as one well pleased. Notice the beginning of the kingdom of grace, in the sanctification, or keeping holy, of the Sabbath day. The solemn observing of one day in seven as a day of holy rest and holy work, to God's honour, is the duty of all to whom God has made known his holy Sabbaths. At this time none of the human race were in being but our first parents. For them the Sabbath was appointed; and clearly for all succeeding generations also. The Christian Sabbath, which we observe, is a seventh day, and in it we celebrate the rest of God the Son, and the finishing the work of our redemption.
 
Re: Check it out

If you want to follow up doorster post go to the following site as it has dozens of English Bible translations as well as many other languages including an Arabic one and I include the Arabic version below.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

2:3 (Arabic Life Application Bible)

3 وَبَارَكَ اللهُ الْيَوْمَ السَّابِعَ وَقَدَّسَهُ، لأَنَّهُ اسْتَرَاحَ فِيهِ مِنْ جَمِيعِ أَعْمَالِ الْخَلْقِ
 
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Re: Check it out

If you want to follow up doorsteps post go to the following site as it has dozens of English Bible translations as well as many other languages including an Arabic one and I include the Arabic version below.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

2:3 (Arabic Life Application Bible)

3 وَبَارَكَ اللهُ الْيَوْمَ السَّابِعَ وَقَدَّسَهُ، لأَنَّهُ اسْتَرَاحَ فِيهِ مِنْ جَمِيعِ أَعْمَالِ الْخَلْقِ
His username is doorster not doorsteps.

:)
 

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