Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?

[Walter]

Grenville, may I ask a question of you regarding your belief in Jesus as the Word of God and/or the Son of God? Was it Jesus, the Word of God, the Son of God, the Son, the Christ, or just plain God (not thought of as in any of the previously mentioned ways) who created the world? (Reference John 1:3, Colossians 1:16.)

I guess I'm asking who made the heavens, the earth, the sea?

Dear Grace Seeker:

Once we go beyond what is explicitly taught in the Bible, then we can enter into speculative opinion. However, our speculative ideas should not damage the integrity of any Biblical verses. If we uncover a second and distinct explanation to interpret the evidence, then all we have done is to reveal a second interpretation.

You asked me who made the heavens and the earth. Well, we must try to answer while maintaining the integrity of every verse in the Bible. The Bible states that “the worlds were formed by the Word of God”. Therefore, it would appear that God made the world and all creation by the Word of God.

Also, from your perspective, and based on only what you believe the Bible explicitly teaches, and nothing else, is it permissable, questionable, or impermissable to worship Jesus? Are we only to worship God (allowing for a moment your assumption that Jesus is not God) or might you worship Jesus for some other reason(s)?

Regarding worshipping Jesus, let us see what Jesus required.

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (John 5: 22-23)​

So Jesus said that we are to Honor Him. The problem is that Christian religious tradition has assumed that “honor” should be equated with “worship”. However, in seeking to verify this assumption, we note the following.

If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honour. (John 12:26)​

What does this word Honor mean? It means to value highly. Therefore, we are to highly value Jesus, and God will highly value us.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, I want to restate what I've heard you say, just to be sure that I understand you correctly:

1) You would affirm that God created the world and all that is in it. You would even allow that he did so by utilizing the Word of God as an instrument of that creation (and you identify Jesus as that Word of God in the flesh) but still one must distinguish between the Word of God as the instrument of God's agency and God himself was the actual author of creation.

2) I also understand, based on what you have posted above, that you believe Jesus is to be honored, but that he is not God and that only God is to be worshipped.

Do I understand your position correctly?

If not, please, make modifications to or amend my statements till they properly reflect your beliefs.

 

[Walter]

Dear Grace Seeker:

As I have written repeatedly, I believe exactly what is stated in the Bible. If you are asking me to provide an interpretation to what is not explicitly stated, then I can give you my opinion.

I hold tightly to what is explicitly stated in the Bible. However, I do not hold on too tightly to what is not explicitly stated because I acknowledge that I am not perfect, and that my interpretations may not be accurate.

I am happy to defend my opinions on which there is little scriptural support. However, if I am found to have misinterpreted some extra-Biblical evidence, then I will not be embarrassed, because there is no debate to be won or lost with such inconsequential opinions. I will merely have been enlightened and will happily adopt a better interpretation of the evidence. Not so with explicit doctrinal teachings.

Now on to your questions.

So, I want to restate what I've heard you say, just to be sure that I understand you correctly:

1) You would affirm that God created the world and all that is in it.

Yes. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen 1:1)

You would even allow that he did so by utilizing the Word of God as an instrument of that creation (and you identify Jesus as that Word of God in the flesh) but still one must distinguish between the Word of God as the instrument of God's agency and God himself was the actual author of creation.

Yes. “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God” Hebrews 11:3a

2) I also understand, based on what you have posted above, that you believe Jesus is to be honored.

Yes. Why? Because that is exactly how Jesus Himself explicitly stated that He wanted to be treated. I am simply obeying Him.

but that he is not God

There appears to be insufficient evidence from the Bible to conclude that Jesus is God. I have invited all to provide whatever evidence exists, and I will happily examine them all.

and that only God is to be worshipped.

Yes. "Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” (Matthew 4:10)

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

Great!! I just wanted to be sure that I properly understood what you were saying.

May I also ask how you understand Colossian 1:15-20, to whom do the pronouns "he" and "him" refer in this passage?

Colossians 1

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Walter]

Hi Grace Seeker:

Before we examine this verse, let us understand that this is Paul’s interpretation of the evidence. With that, let us proceed with Collosians 1.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.​

This could be Adam or the Word of God. A review of the context will show that it is the Word.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.​

We have already established that God created through His Word.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.​

God gave His word several privileges, eg, to have life in Himself, and to rule.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.​

Now, what does this mean? Christian religious tradition has interpreted this verse for over 1,800 years to mean that Jesus is God. Therefore, since we are reviewing a long helf belief, we need to examine this passage carefully.

The passage is clarified by the same Paul in 2 Corinthians.

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:18–20)​

Jesus also clarified that the Father was working in Him and through Him.

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:10–11)​

So God was in Christ in order that a specific task should be accomplished, that of reconciling the world to Himself. The assumption made was that if God dwells in or fills someone to accomplish a task, then that person becomes or is God. In seeking to verify this assumption, we note that Jesus prayed that believers would be One with the Father, as Jesus was also One with the Father, in order that specific tasks could be accomplished.

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. (John 17:11)

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. (John 17:20–21)​

The Bible records that God filled other persons to accomplish specific tasks; however, they were not God.

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship. (Exodus 31:1–5)

But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.” (Luke 1:13–16)​

Therefore, God filling and working through someone is not evidence of that person being God.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Follower]

Yes, this is obviously about Jesus- the WORD incarnate. No mere man can be the invisible image of GOD whether in-filled with the Holy Spirit or not. They are a sinful creature and Jesus is the only sinless one.

These verses are not talking about the physical body of Jesus but, the soul/spirit, the being that makes up the substance of who Jesus is.

Actions speak louder then words, but only because we are sinful creatures. We say one thing but do another and so our words convict us of empty promises.

Look at the power of human words. They can stab the heart or cause pure joy. If someone steals our words it is plagiarism. Our words can stay on the scene long after we are gone. Our words can be windows into our souls.

Words are who we are.

 

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Since we appear to have exhausted all of the evidence that is used to support the idea that Jesus is God, we shall now examine the evidence in the Bible that explicitly shows that Jesus is not God. I posted this on another thread, but it is relevant evidence for this post also.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 20-28)​

So Jesus has been given authority, by God, to do much. But even He is subject to God who gave Him this authority.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[malayloveislam]

Peace everyone,

LOL, Islamic teaching do regard all prophets as sinless. Just to share this with Christian friends as I don't want to interrupt your discussions or arguing about who is right or who is wrong. I think that it is still in the right topic but a bit off topic for traditional Pauline Christianity because Pauline Christianity is according to Paul and Church Father's interpretation of the teaching of Jesus regarding the divinity of the people who are sinless.

If Jesus is sinless because he is G-d, then we Muslims would long worship all the prophets including Muhammad as G-d because he is considered as sinless in Islam too. But, we never take any prophets including Muhammad as G-d or Divine which equates them to G-d or His incarnations because it will lead us to Polytheism, we have to stick with strict Monotheism that Abraham was revealed with. G-d represents Himself as G-d, not in any other form. In addition, those prophets including Jesus (according to Islamic teaching) are just humans but protected from sins by G-d.

In Islam, 25 main prophets from Adam to Muhammad, including the persons whose name transliterated in Westerners languages from Greek as Jesus and Moses are all sinless, they sometimes committing errors too as they are human-being, but those errors are not counted as sins by G-d. That is the meaning of ma3soum in Arabic and only prophets or His messengers are Ma3soum. Ma3soum is from the word al-3ismatu means protected (from sins).

G-d will remind them through revelation about the minor errors that happened as in the meaning of educating them and they became our examples today. G-d is the One who educates all the prophets through His revelations. That is the difference between chosen human-being who are the prophets or G-d messengers and ordinary human-being like us in Islam.

This is covered in our third of Six Basic Pillars of Creed, believing in prophets and messengers of G-d from Adam to Muhammad. Believing G-d is the first, believing angels the second and there are uncountable of them created by Holy G-d everyday worshiping and obeying Him in the whole Universe but at least 10 of them we should know, who are Gabriel, Mikhail, Zabaniah, Israfil, Ridhwan, Malik and etc. Then comes to prophets and messengers of G-d, thousands of them according to millenium, but at least 25 of the main God messengers we should know. If we reject one of them including Jesus, we are no more Muslim because they brought the same teaching, I guess this is what Pauline Christians in the West confused with. Believing prophets until Jesus, then we will become Christians, believing prophets and stop at Moses, then we become Jews not Muslim because we Muslim believe and accepting Muhammad prophethood and as the conclusion of the teaching of Monotheism in the period near dooms day. It is a must for us to honor Muhammad and Abraham both in our daily prayers.

With Love

 

[Walter]

Hi MalayLoveIslam:

Is there any support in the Qur'an of the Islamic religious tradition that God’s prophets are sinless as you describe?

Regards,
Grenville

 

[malayloveislam]

There are two proofs that prophets and G-d messengers are sinless in Islam:

1) Logical sense that they are sinless

First

Logically, those prophets should be protected from evil acts as their main purpose being ordained by G-d as prophets and G-d messengers is to guide the whole man-kind and also facilitating them to the truth with the tasks under the order of G-d. In fact, the prophets are the ambassadors of G-d to human-being in certain period and millenium to the whole man-kind. G-d always ordaining prophets and sending messengers to correct human-being when they astrayed from the straight path as the sign of His Mercy.

If they are inconsistent with their task in spreading the guidance of the straight path, or not practicing the teaching from the revelation, or opposing their own words based from revelation, other human-being too will evaluate them as not practicing what they preached. As the result, there will be no one who believe in their preach anymore as there is no integrity. The mission will be impossible and incomplete as the task had not been fully delivered.

As to say, the wisdom and blessings of G-d claimed the prophets and G-d messengers to be protected from the sin. It is impossible evil acts coming out from them and they are clean from any sin. They might be careless in certain time or sometimes forgetful but evil acts that may commit sins shall not come out from them. G-d will immediately remind them of their forgetfulness and carelessness and they will quickly seeking forgiveness although they are protected from sins. If they are not protected by G-d from sins, human-being will make assumptions that the prophets too are sinful because they sometimes forget and might be careless in certain time. However they are not the same as ordinary human-being, they are chosen people.

Second

Beside ordained as the messengers of G-d in charge of spreading the contents of revelation and the message of G-d to human-being beside facilitating them to the straight path, prophets and G-d messengers too had been ordained to educate and purifying humans' soul to the highest polished morality stage.

It means that beside teaching and guiding human-being, the prophets had other important tasks, which is to lead and to wholly educate them. The prophets are usually from noble clan and families respected by certain community. They are seen as people with high morality. The highest status that they possess will never be achieved by ordinary people as they are only achieved by people with the highest perfection in their characteristics. They are perfect and flawless in characteristics. The attitude and the manner of an educator is more influential than speeches in morality development process. If we found flaws in prophets characteristics such as in their acts or speeches then, it will be meaningless anymore.

The main purpose of G-d ordained prophets and messengers to lead and educating human-being will be wholly accomplished when they are sinless and protected from sin, free from evil acts and deviation.

2. Proofs from revelation about prophets are sinless

Quran is using the term al-Mukhlas to certain individuals when they are not influenced by any whisper of satan. Devil had sworn to make the children of Adam (humans) falling into sin and dragging human-being into the Hell with him after he was accursed by G-d due to his jealousy. But the people who are mukhlas will never be deceived.

G-d says in Quran:

82. (Iblis) said:"Then, by Thy Power, I will put them all in the wrong."

83. "Except Thy servants amongst them, sincere, and purified (by Thy Grace)."

(The meaning of Surah Saad, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali).

Al-Mukhlas in the meaning of Quran is translated as sincere and pure heart.

It is interpreted as the reason for satans (the followers of Devil) losing hope in deceiving the mukhlas person is because they are pure hearted and protected from sins and evil acts. If they are not pure, the foes will certainly taking advantages to deceive them. And if they are deceivable, the satans will never leave any minutes to discard them from practicing good moralities. Al-Mukhlas is identical to the meaning of Ma3soum. Although, there is no specific argumentation about the al-Mukhlas is the characteristic only for prophets in Quran, but it is undoubtedly that it is the characteristic hold by them.

Al-Quran too had tagged some prophets with the mukhlas characteristic, and of course all of the prophets are equal to each other in Islam:

45. And commemorate Our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob possessors of Power and Vision.

46. Verily we did choose them for a special (purpose)- proclaiming the message of the Hereafter.

(The meaning of Surah Saad by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

51. "And mentioned in the scripture (Quran), about Moses. Indeed he is a mukhlas (sincere) messenger and a prophet."

(the meaning of Surah Maryam)

24. And (with passion) did she (the wife of Egyptian king) desire him (Joseph), and he would have desired her, but that he saw evidence of His Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds: for he was one of Our servants, sincere and purified."

(The meaning of Surah Yusuf by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Secondly, is that we have to obey the teaching of prophets and it is obligatory for the whole human-being to obey the prophets as they recited revelation from G-d:

64. We sent not a messenger , but to be obeyed in accordance with the Will of G-d. If they had only, when they are unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked G-d's forgiveness, and the messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found G-d indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

(The meaning of Surah an-Nisaa by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

The obeisance toward the teaching of prophet will only happened if the prophet obeying the Holy G-d and it is in turn that the obeisance of toward the prophets is not denying the obeisance toward G-d. The order to obey G-d and prophets will be opposing the people who commit sins and deviation.

Thirdly, al-Quran had specified the position of G-d to those who are not committing any tyranny acts toward themselves. G-d said when replying to prophet Abraham's prayer about the position of his descendants leadership in religion, "My promise will cover the people who commit tyranny over themselves."

We know that evil and shameful acts are actually a tyranny toward the individual himself. The people who commit evil and shameful acts are referred as the people who had tyrannizing themselves in Quran. Thus, the prophets and G-d messengers are the people with special position in the G-d's view with prophethood and order of spreading the message of G-d, so they should be clean from any tyranny and evil acts.

This is what I can explain, from my limited knowledge. I'm sorry for my bad English, I had tried to use simple structure of sentences because I have to rephrase sentences from my native language in English.

With Love

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Everyone:

Since we appear to have exhausted all of the evidence that is used to support the idea that Jesus is God....

The operative word is "appear". We have hardly exhausted it. I for one sometimes get busy with other things and LI takes a back seat, but we have just begun to scratch the surface of your title question. So, don't read into quietness either exhaustion or lack of interest.

Also, why are you going to clutter your own thread with stuff that is different than the thread's title?

Now as with regards this thread, I thought you might have better answers to some of the questions that have been asked:

Grace Seeker: "May I also ask how you understand Colossian 1:15-20, to whom do the pronouns 'he' and 'him' refer in this passage?"

Grenville: "This could be Adam or the Word of God. A review of the context will show that it is the Word."

Grenville also said: "God filling and working through someone is not evidence of that person being God."


Notice that the second statement doesn't actually address the question. It makes a statement, but it doesn't speak to the issue of the antecedents to the terms that were asked about. It moves on to interpretation of the passage without looking closely enough at the text to have discerned what the text is actually talking about.


With regard to the suggestion that the terms "he" and "him" might refer to Adam, that is untenable as Adam is never mentioned in the entire letter to the Colossians. It is also highly unlikely that it could refer to "the word of God" either as that particular phrase is mentioned on once in the entire letter, and not until after the passage in question. Hence the phrase "the word of God" (Colossians 1:25) could not be the antecedent for the pronouns that are used prior to it (in Colossians 1:15-20).

The best antecedent for the pronounes "he" and "him" (Colossians 1:15-20) is to be found by looking to the verses immediately preceeding where the pronouns are used. In this case we find the antecedent te be "the Son" mentioned in Colossians 1:13. Hence, substituting the noun for the pronoun, we could quite properly read Colossians 1:15-20 as follows:

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by the Son all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by the Son and for the Son. 17The Son is before all things, and in the Son all things hold together. 18And the Son is the head of the body, the church; the Son is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything the Son might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son, 20and through the Son to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

In other words, it is not some nebulous concept, but the person of the Son who does all of this.

 

[Follower]

Grenville - there are also the actions of the disciples as Biblical evidence that show they believed Jesus to worthy of worship.

 

[Walter]

2. Proofs from revelation about prophets are sinless

G-d says in Quran:

82. (Iblis) said:"Then, by Thy Power, I will put them all in the wrong."

83. "Except Thy servants amongst them, sincere, and purified (by Thy Grace)."

Dear Malayloveislam:

You quoted: "Except Thy servants amongst them, sincere, and purified (by Thy Grace)."

Please note that if they are purified, then there must have been a time when they were in a state to need to be purified. Many of God’s prophets in the Old Testament had made major mistakes.

Moses disobeyed God and was not permitted to enter the promised land. The prophet that went from Judah to Bethel disobeyed God and ate in Bethel and was killed by a lion. Jonah disobeyed God and ran from his assignment. Job complained. David committed adultery and murdered the woman’s husband.

According to the Bible, only Jesus was sinless.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Grenville - there are also the actions of the disciples as Biblical evidence that show they believed Jesus to worthy of worship.

Hi Follower:

I dealt with this in another thread.

Given that the Greek word for worship has a range of meanings, including to: kiss, faun, crouch, prostrate, reverence, and adore, we need to examine the context of each usage. Let us examine some evidence.

When satan wanted Jesus to worship him, he prefixed “fall down” to worship so that there would be no doubt as to the intent. Jesus replied that only God should receive this type of worship and did not include Himself as a recipient. If He had, then we would probably not be having this discussion.

We should note that even when the action of falling down is prefixed to worship, it still may not indicate actual worship. Please note Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant.

The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. (Matthew 18:26)​

I do not believe that Jesus was stating that the servant was worshipping his master as we should worship God. Therefore, we may agree that there are some challenges with making conclusive statements on this issue. Let us continue with some explicit evidence.

In John’s account of Jesus with the woman at the well, Jesus clarified that the Father should be worshipped, and again, did not include Himself as a possible recipient.

After Jesus’ death and resurrection, Jesus’ disciples only talked about worshipping God, not Jesus in their letters.

Therefore, while we have no conclusive evidence that Jesus should be worshipped, we do have explicit evidence that God alone should be worshipped.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

In other words, it is not some nebulous concept, but the person of the Son who does all of this.

OK Grace Seeker:

Since we are into the realm of speculative opinion, when do you think that “the Word became Flesh”? Was it at Jesus’ birth, or some time earlier of later?

Regards,
Grenville

 

[ragdollcat1982]

One should look at the book of 1 John 5:7

1 John 5:7 (King James Version)

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



and here is the Arabic translation


5:7 (Arabic Life Application Bible)

7 فَإِنَّ هُنَالِكَ ثَلاَثَةَ شُهُودٍ غفِي السَّمَاءِ، الآبُ وَالْكَلِمَةُ وَالرُّوحُ الْقُدُسُ، وَهَؤُلاءِ الثَّلاَثَةُ هُمْ وَاحِدٌف


I got both translations off of Biblegateway.com that has an online version of the Bible in numerous languages. For those who speak or read Arabic and just want to view for comparative study purposes it can be helpful

 

[Walter]

One should look at the book of 1 John 5:7

1 John 5:7 (King James Version)

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Dear Ragdollcat:

Thank you for that useful post. Let us rigorously examine the verse, for Truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny.

John appears to identify the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost as one.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. (1 John 5:7–8)​

The following footnote to this passage in the New King James Version of the Bible states that, the portion of text underlined above is not contained in earlier Biblical manuscripts: “NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.”

Ragdollcat, doctrines should be based on explicit and authentic verses that are not vulnerable to misinterpretation. Therefore, since there is some uncertainty with these verses, the underlined section of this passage should not be used for supporting or establishing Doctrines.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK Grace Seeker:

Since we are into the realm of speculative opinion, when do you think that “the Word became Flesh”? Was it at Jesus’ birth, or some time earlier of later?

Regards,
Grenville

At the moment that Jesus was conceived within Mary's womb.


And prior to that the Word was the one who made all things: the heavens, the earth, the sea, even the springs of water, the birds of the air, the fish of the sea, deserts and lakes and forests and you and me.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Reading the whole of the text up to that point the antecedent for the pronoun "him" in this passage is "the Word".

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[ragdollcat1982]

Ragdollcat, doctrines should be based on explicit and authentic verses that are not vulnerable to misinterpretation. Therefore, since there is some uncertainty with these verses, the underlined section of this passage should not be used for supporting or establishing Doctrines.

Regards,
Grenville

That of course is your prerogative Grenville. I have met a few Christians who claim that Jesus was not God,but a created being yet still the Son of God. Muslims of course believe Jesus to be a prophet, not the Son of God or God incarnate. They of course are not bound by Chrisitan belief and doctrine.In John 10:30 Jesus says that he and the Father are one. It seems pretty clear to myself and many other Christians that Jesus is saying that he is God in the Flesh. To not believe it would make Christianity a polythesitic religion not monothesitic.

 

[ragdollcat1982]

At the moment that Jesus was conceived within Mary's womb.

I agree with you 100%.