Qur'an and the Trinity

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The point is that they do not think Mary is god, is it more important what they do or what thy think? Jesus's words described in the verse would be meaningless to them, just as if someone asked you whether you think Muhammad is a god.

Greetings,

If I remember correctly pagans in the time of Muhammad (Peace Be Upon
Him) considered themselves monotheists. Just they asked for intercession of
idols.

Fact is, they were amongst "Mushriks", meaning those who believe there are
gods other than God. So should we ask various groups whether they are
monotheist or we can have some clear rules to define monotheism ?

Peace.
 
Salam and Peace,

A very good question raised brother Forced_In, well at least our Christian friends can see how we view monotheism teaching through our scripture :statisfie:

Tauhid

The definition of Tauhid at least in Islam

Idiomatically, Tauhid means "you believe that something is only one," which also means "a unity." As per Islamic term or according to "Syariah Way of Life," it means "We sorship solely Allah (Holy G-d) or solely One G-d, in the matters that He Himself had imposed through His prophets and messengers in the aspect of Rububiyya, Uluhiyya, and Asma' was-Sifah.

For English speaker, the root word of Tauhid is Ahad, it means One! You may check Surah al-Ikhlas, it deals with Tauhid, Monotheism.

The position of Tauhid in Islamic Way of Life

G-d says in Quran:

And make not another an object of worship with G-d: I am from Him a warner to you, clear, and open. (Surah az-Zariyya, 51 verse 51, meaning by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

and further in the verse 56th of Surah az-Zariyya G-d says:

I have only created Genies and Men, that they may worship (serve) Me.

Also in other verses:

O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, Who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness.

(the meaning of Surah al-Baqarah, 2nd verse 21 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali).

For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet (and messenger with the Command), "worship (serve) G-d and eschew Thaghuth (Evil)!": of the people were some G-d guided, and some whom error became inevitably (established). So, travel the earth, and see what is the end of those who denied (the Truth).

(the meaning of Surah an-Nahl, Surah 16th, verse 36 translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Tauhid as the Biggest Obligation in Islam

1. Tauhid is the first thing ordered by Holy G-d to His messengers to be implemented in their people.

2. Tauhid is the first terminal and the first step for those who desires to walk in the path of Holy G-d.

3. When Tauhid completely exist in oneself, it will prevent the person from being cast into Hell.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is reported as saying in Hadith narration:

If ones bear witness that there is no true gods except Holy G-d and Muhammad is His slave (servant), and His messenger by heart, G-d will prevent Hell-Fire from touching them. (Narration of Bukhari)
 
The meaning of the word Tauhid

Tauhid brought the meaning of knowing, proclaiming, confessing, witnessing and believing that there is no other gods worth to be worshiped except Allah (the Holy G-d) alone. Other than Him have no right to be worshiped (served) and they are not the true G-d.

The word Tauhid covers the proclamation by heart, oral proclamation, and verbal acts as the proof to Holy G-d that there is no gods but solely Holy G-d.

1. What is Tauhid Rububiyya?

It means that we believe Allah (the Holy G-d) is with One characteristic, means He is solely One when He Creates and Preserving, and He is the only Lord of the Universe.

The deeper meaning of Tauhid ar-Rububiyya

The word ar-Rububiyya is from the root word Rabb whic means:

1. as-Sayyid (the Lord)
2. al-Maalik (the Possessor/the King)
3. the Creator
4. The Administrator
5. The Educator
6. The Guardian
7. The One Who Takes Care
8. The Supreme Chief

Holy G-d's characteristics is Absolute. It won't change and will never change forever.

As for human, if they possess something or powerful, those characteristics will not last long as they are temporary. Everything in the Universe is G-d's possession. What we have as His creatures solely borrowed to us and Majazi (metaphorical). Only G-d as the Lord of Universe is with whole Perfect characteristics. Every creature is dependent to Him, praying for intercession from Him, and placing all of hopes to Him due to His Perfect characteristics.

Human, if they are clever, intelligent, and smart, those things are from Holy G-d. The luxury and the possession of humans over something is not absolute as they are all from G-d.

Humans are created as creatures. Humans have nothing, except that every act, breath, and the force that had been granted by G-d to them.

G-d is all Powerful, in creating, in the matters of life and death. He is the One Who has the authority in benefiting and harming. If He desires benefits and goodness over someone, nobody can prevent Him from His Will. If G-d's Will over someone that he will be affected by evil or danger, nobody can prevent or stop Him too.

Allah is the only One who is mutafarriq. Mutafarriq means the One with the authority to bring benefits (goodness) and dangers (evil).

G-d says in Quran:

"If G-d touch thee with affliction, none can remove it but He; if He touch thee with happiness, He hath the Power over all things.

(translation of Surah al-An'am, 6th, verse 17)

Those characteristics of G-d too are among the source of Tauhid. Fear only Allah, and acting with courage due to the confidence and trust in Holy G-d.

I can see that the word Fear G-d, had been used by certain Christian scholars to emphasize that Islam is the religion of Fear G-d, while Christianity emphasizes Love. We Muslim do Love G-d, we also Fear G-d. We love Him as the Preserver who grant us blessings that we can live peacefully and others. We fear G-d because we fear the burdens in the Hereafter and punishment from Him if we commit sins (lying, killing, associating Him with Evil or Thaghut, and others).

Humans are with Pauper characteristics

Humans in the earth are with the pauper characteristic (possess nothing), and also dependent to the help from G-d.

G-d says in Hadiths Qudsi (Holy Hadiths):

"O human, you are all in the dark except if those whom I grant guidance and success to them. Thus, ask for My guidance!"

"O human, you are all hungry, except those whom I grant foods, thus ask for food (look in the wider context, not only bread) from Me!"

"O human, you are all naked, except those whom I granted with clothes. Thus ask for clothes from Me."

(Holy Hadiths is revealed by Gabriel to Muhammad but it is not apart of Quran, it is different from the Acts of prophet which is also known as Hadiths)

The characteristic of rich and pauper

Necessity toward something is the characteristic of human. Human, animal, plants, and other creatures all needs G-d. So, all of the creatures are with the characteristics of the poor.

G-d is the only Rich. He needs nothing. If human have the confidence like this to G-d, they will not think bad about G-d or blaming G-d if they face trials and tribulations.

"O ye men! It is ye that need of G-d: but G-d is the One Free from all wants, Worthy of all praise.

(Translation of Surah Fathir, 35th, verse 15 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

Pauper is the dzati characteristic of the creations of G-d. Rich is the dzati characteristic of al-Khaaliq (the Creator).

Proofs of Tauhid ar-Rububiyya:

There are many proofs that G-d is One and no others equal to Him in the term of Rububiyya (Lordship). Among them:

1. When we see the words on the black board, there must be somebody who scratched it. The person with healthy thinking will think that everything in this world must have the fabricator.

2. Everything in the Universe, from the detail tiniest size to the biggest witnessing that Holy G-d is the Lord of the Universe. He has the authority over the creations in the Universe.

3. The manner this Universe being arranged is so amazing. Beautiful, and detail that proofs the Perfect characteristic of G-d. If the Universe speaks, they will proclaim themselves as the creation of G-d. The people with healthy mind will say that the Universe is created by the Powerful G-d. Nobody will say that those things naturally happened and exist. Well, we have Atheists, everything exist naturally, it's up to them, they too can think.

All of these proofs the magnificent knowledge of G-d. We may observe the creation of human-being. Their detail anatomy and see on how detail it is the creation of G-d. Well, Europeans had already involved in artistic Arts during the Enlightment period, I'm sure European and Western people are quite good in Humanistic arts that made some of them became Atheists. We have Atheists too in majority Muslim countries like Indonesia and also Malaysia. Also in Thailand, majority Buddhists don't believe G-d but they still practicing a religion.

There are also various creations of G-d with different characteristics and appearances between one another. All of them clearly shows that G-d is the Wisest. There are branches of sciences like physics, chemistry, biology, and etc with various uncountable sub-branches of sciences and philosophy, we Muslim used them to search G-d, but Atheist claimed those sciences proved that G-d is not exist, that is our difference :D

The nature of proclaiming the Lordship of G-d

The proclamation and confession the Lordship of G-d is acceptable. The fact is reflected in the nature of human-being. Non-believers with too proclaiming the Lordship of G-d.

"If thou ask them, who created them? They will certainly say: G-d: How then they are deluded away (from Truth)?

(The meaning of Surah Zukhruf, 43rd, verse 87 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

"If thou wert to question them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" They would be surely reply. "They were created by (Him), the Exalted in Power, Full of Knowledge' -

(The meaning of Surah Zukhruf, verse 9 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

It's actually not so complicated to prove the Lordship of G-d. The nature of every human is the proof of Him. The polytheists and the ungrateful human too realize about the Lordship of G-d the Creator.

al-Quran affirmed the existance of G-d's Lordship in humans' soul.

al-Quran reminds us about the nature or the soul of humans had already filled with the feeling to proclaim the Lordship of G-d, the Lord of the Universe.

G-d says:

"Their messengers said: "Is there a doubt about G-d, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? It is He Who invites you, in order that He may forgive you your sins and give you respite for a term appointed!" They said: "Ah! Ye are no more than human, like ourselves! Ye wish to turn us away from (the gods) our fathers used to worship: then bring us some clear authority!"

(the meaning of Surah Ibrahim, chapter 14th, verse 10 by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

"And they rejected those Signs in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls were convinced thereof: so see what was the end of those who acted corruptly."

(the meaning of Surah an-Naml chap 27:14 by AYA)

The refusal and the objections of some humans to proclaim the existance of G-d as the Creator is actually determined by their arrogance, stubborn, and closing their own heart. As the matter of fact, the soul of human or the nature of human can't be empty from the deep feeling in proclaiming the existance of G-d the Creator.

If the nature and the soul of humans is clean from arrogance, stubbornness, and the scums that came from their evil thinking, spontaneously they will straight directing themselves toward G-d without difficulties to make any choice. Spontaneously their tongue will articulate G-d and asking helps from Him.

It is human behavior that when they are in dangerous situation that nothing will be crossing his mind except G-d. At that time, his thinking and senses will only be directed to G-d. Well, we can see when Lenin almost fall, he had asked the churches to strike their bells, and the mosque to loudly calling for prayers. Isn't he a non-believer of G-d Lordship? His daughter too converted to Russian Orthodox Christianity and migrating the US when her father lost in the war. Where is their Atheism?

So, this confirmed what G-d says in Quran:

"When a wave covers them like the canopy (of clouds), they call to G-d, offering Him sincere devotion. But when He has delivered them safely to land, there are amongst them who halt between (right and wrong). But none reject Our signs except only a perfidious ungrateful (wretch)!"

(the meaning of Surah Luqman 31:32 by AYA)

Indeed the problems about the existance of G-d is not really complicated. It is obvious, clear, simple, and easy. There are many proofs and events that had happened through out human's history.


http://members.tripod.com/~hasan98/tauhid.htm
 
Tauhid al-Uluhiyya

It means that we practice Monotheism in our worship acts. G-d had sent prophets and messengers in order to call humans in accepting the worship of G-d the One. we can see what G-d says in Quran:

1. Not a messenger did We send before thee without this revelation sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.

(the meaning of Surah al-Anbiyaa' 21:25)

2. For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

(the meaning of Surah an-Nahl 16:36)

3. (Further, We sent a long line of prophets for your instruction). We sent Noah to his people: He said, "O my people! worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. Will ye not fear (Him)?"

(the meaning of Surah al-Mu'minoon 23:23)

4. To the 'Ad people, (We sent) Hud, one of their (own) brethren: He said: O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him will ye not fear (Allah)?"

(the meaning of Surah al-A'araf 7:65)

The Sparks of the Love toward G-d

Worship or the acts of worship to Holy G-d can only be executed by oneself when they have pure Love to Him and voluntarily or sincerely prostrating themselves only to Him. A slave or a servant will only be counted as worshiping Him he submitting his entire soul to Holy G-d, have confidence on Him, stead fast with the teachings of Holy G-d, accepting His Will, asking (hope) and returning (submitting) everything only to Him, trying to be close to Him through remembering Him, executing the way of life according to what He had taught through scripture, and preserving every acts (morality, words, and etc) according to the way that He pleased with.

‘ubudiyya that keeps increasing

"Ubudiyya means submittance and we enslave ourselves only to Holy G-d. It will gives great impacts in human life if we deeply understand the facts that human is not perfect and weak in the view of G-d. Human always depending and hoping to G-d. His Power and Control cover us in every seconds.

Humans' relation of love with G-d will be even more strong when human understand and know well about the characteristics of G-d which are the glorious names of G-d (praised characteristics), His Perfection, and the greatness of His blessings.

Submitting (enslaving) oneself to G-d will free him from being the slave of others (idols, evil desires, colonization, human lordship (dominion theory), man made ideologies and etc). Human will be a sincere slave and sincerely worship (submitting) himself to G-d. Human will achieve highest stage in the view of G-d when they sincerely submitting themselves only to G-d.

G-d portrayed in Quran about the circumstances of honorable prophets of Him with the slave characteristics. Being the slave of G-d is not like being the slave of human, like we see in the US during her early times where African slaves were forced to work for White masters. G-d never ask us to serve Him like the African slaves have to serve their White masters. He gave us choices, that is why Islam prevent us from forcing others to believe. Because He has Mercy not only to Muslim but also to non-believers. It is easy to understand Islamic Creed, and it is just a simple teaching. It is human who made the teaching looks like complicated.

In Quran, G-d shows us about prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as His slave, in one night when His revelation comes to him, when the prophet calls for Islam and when he experienced the Isra' and Mi'raj.

G-d says:

1. So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey. (the meaning of Surah an-Najmu 53:10)

2. "Yet when the Devotee of Allah stands forth to invoke Him, they just make round him a dense crowd." (the meaning of Surah al-Jinn 72:19)

3. Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). (the meaning of Surah al-Isra' 17:1)

Tauhid ar-Rububiyya is related to Tauhid al-Uluhiyya

As what had been stated above, Tauhid ar-Rububiyya means proclaiming the belief that G-d is the Lord, the Master, the Controller, the Creator, and the Absolute Grantor. There is no association for Him in His Lordship.

When a person accepting the Lordship of G-d, they will also accepting the entire meanings that relate or made human proclaiming their faith on Tauhid Uluhiyya which is the worship of solely Him. Spontaneously human will only worship Him, and none others should be worship in any form.

Glorious Quran had earlier reminded the pagan Quraisy Arabs in Mecca to first accepting the Tauhid Rububiyya (His absolute Lordship). When they accept that with their whole heart only the bridge that connects them to Tauhid Uluhiyya (worship only Him) will be established. This clear fact should not being hidden and should not been taken easily.

G-d says:

1. Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created? (the meaning of Surah Al-A’raf 7:191)

2. "Is then He Who creates like one that creates not? Will ye not receive admonition?” (the meaning of Surah An-Nahl 16:17)

3. O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition! (the meaning of Surah Al-Hajj 22:73)

The verses had reminded those polytheists about the clear fact that their objects of worships are weak, are not capable to create anything even a fly. Those objects of where the worships being directed too have no force to get back the things if the fly is taking or snatching something from the objects of worship. This shows on how weak they are. Those people who worship the idols (spirits, stones, image of gods, saints, jungles, evil desires, etc) are weak and the idols worshiped too are weak, both of them are weak :).

As to say, a person with his mind clear can not accept the worship to others than Holy G-d. They can not associate Him with others or using any medium to communicate with Him in prayers. The Holy G-d is the Creator and the only One G-d. Other than Him are weak and have no force.

Those fake gods have nothing like G-d

Glorious Quran argued and reminded the pagans that those things worshiped other than G-d had no power even the power which is as light as an atom whether they are in the earth or in the heavens. And those who worship them too has no power even as light as atom whether they are in the earth or in the heavens. Holy G-d has no necessity with those fake gods and also the worshiper of their worshiper. If they realize this fact, they will feel the obligation to sincerely worship only G-d.

G-d says:

Say: "Call upon other (gods) whom ye fancy, besides Allah: They have no power,- not the weight of an atom,- in the heavens or on earth: No (sort of) share have they therein, nor is any of them a helper to Allah.

(the meaning of SurahSaba’ 34: 22)

Glorious Quran do mentioned that the polytheists or pagans recognize some part of G-d Lordship such as He is the Possessor of the heavens and earth and He is the Controller of what happened in the heavens and earth. If that so, they should be faithful to G-d and worshiping Him without association.

G-d says:

84. Say: "To whom belong the earth and all beings therein? (say) if ye know!"

85. They will say, "To Allah!" say: "Yet will ye not receive admonition?"

86. Say: "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens, and the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme?"

87. They will say, "(They belong) to Allah." Say: "Will ye not then be filled with awe?"

88. Say: "Who is it in whose hands is the governance of all things,- who protects (all), but is not protected (of any)? (say) if ye know."

89. They will say, "(It belongs) to Allah." Say: "Then how are ye deluded?"

90. We have sent them the Truth: but they indeed practise falsehood!

(the meaning of Surah al-Mu’minun: 84-90)

http://members.tripod.com/~hasan98/tauhid.htm
 
4:171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

I understand Allah throwing the Word away - even humans are able to generate ever increasing words.

In Islam when Allah threw his soul away as in verse 4:171 - does that diminish Allah's soul?
 
4:171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .

I understand Allah throwing the Word away - even humans are able to generate ever increasing words.


Follower, again you twist translations, no one listens to your stupidity anymore.

Just for completeness refer to surah(32) verse (8-9), "breathes into man his spirit", this applies to all creation of man, and thus destroying your attempt to prove any special status for jesus(pbuh) from that verse.

In Islam when Allah threw his soul away as in verse 4:171 - does that diminish Allah's soul?

What are you trying to say exactly.....?
 
But don't you think they have to provide some words of Muslims prayers at KAba,or some acts affirms that their worship directed at something other than God?

If you accuse someone you should have more than guesswork , we have against the Catholics proofs from their prayers .


what is there in Muslims rituals at the Kaba suggest that they are not true monotheists?
Remember, I am not one who actually holds such a view. So, you ask me to speculate. I can do so based on what I read and what others tell me, but anything of that nature I share with this board would of course be 2nd and 3rd hand information. And I don't pretend that I can do justice to their position as it is not one that I share with them. Is that what you want to hear?
 
You say that I have twisted translations, I say I merely interprete/understand the verses differently.

As a person that believes 100% that the Holy Bible is the Word of GOD, the 2 of us have completely different backgrounds, had different teachings, perspectives of GOD and relationships with GOD.

I understand that you as a Muslim are not allowed to interprete anything outside the usual teachings of hadith, imam and tasfir, you are not given the freedom of allowing scripture speak to you. As a Christians we are allowed to let the scripture speak to us- sometimes fuller slightly different understandings come through the scripture depending on what is happening in our life.

I can read a Holy Bible story one day and receive an understanding of how or what I need to do in my life. The very next day read the same story and receive a slightly diffenrent perspective of what I need to do.

This is very possibly the reason for all our denominatons- which are all just different celebrations of our Christian faith. We know that GOD loves diversity- look at all the varous animals, sea creatures, bugs and birds, planets and stars, plants, mountains and valleys,etc.

LOL!! sorry that was long winded!!

Anyway back to the different wording - why the different wording? Instead of breathing a soul into a person as the Quran says He did with men, GOD throws it away to Jesus.

32:9
...He blew in Him from His Soul/Spirit ...

Is a new soul created along with the body?

4:171
...His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him...

Not just blown into, but thrown away to.
 
Instead of breathing a soul into a person as the Quran says He did with men, GOD throws it away to Jesus.

32:9
...He blew in Him from His Soul/Spirit ...

Is a new soul created along with the body?

4:171
...His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him...

Not just blown into, but thrown away to.

whether breathed or thrown away to,we arrive to the same conclusion..

The spirit (which been blown,thrown away) is a spirit from God not the spirit of God.

If the the spirit of God is what had been thrown to Jesus,then we had the infinite inside the finite and the father Jesus been talking to, was a void.
 
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the infinite inside the finite

I know you probably didn't intend to be so prophetic, but I actually think that is one of the better definitions of the incarnation that I have ever read. Do you mind if I use it?
 
What's your question? I was entirely serious. When we Christians speak of the incarnation, we are talking precisely about what you defined here: "the infinite inside the finite."

Jesus is the incarnation of the infinite God of the universe in the finite body of a human being. We're not ascribing partners to God at all. We are saying something much more than that. (And I expect even more troubling to Muslims; it certainly is to Jews.) We are saying that God has come in the flesh and walked among us. Of course we don't think that there is a void left in heaven simply because God is incarnated on earth. We understand that God being infinite is not limited to just being in the human body of Jesus, but can be everywhere and especially here both at the very same time and that there is no inherent contradiction in that statement. But your statement is just a an excellent way of saying what Paul said about Jesus -- that all the fullness of God was present and dwelling bodily in the person of Jesus.
 
LOL!! Imam - You have taken everything in exactly the opposite way I have tried to explain. I was saying the same thing but in an opposite way. Why would the Quran say such a verse if somene at sometime didn't believe that Jesus had said something about worshipping Mary?

Someone must have believed that Jesus said that or why bring the topic up in the Quran? Muslims and Christians both know that Jesus never did say that. It was in a false gospel written after the Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

I know the Quran says do not say three- Christians don't say that GOD is 3 gods. You still do not understand the Trinity, it does not say to believe in 3 gods. It does not say that GOD is divisible. GOD is indivisible!! The essence/substance of GOD is one, indivisible, yet in three in subsistence.

Essence = what a thing is, substance
Subsistence = the form of existence

The infinite inside the finite.
 
Graceseeker- 'I expect even more troubling to Muslims'

I think possibly so. My understanding is that to a Muslim, GOD is unknowable.

It is through Jesus that we can know GOD.
 
What's your question? I was entirely serious.

In my post I used the definition as illogical conclusion,not to endorse it .

my question was just wondering how would you ask me for permission to use such illogical definition in discussion....

I used to get your illogical arguments eg;The Bible though errant still to be trusted 100%, some prophecies have double fulfillment etc....

so I would feel no wonder if you add another illogical concept (the infinite once was finite and infinite at the same time) ....


We're not ascribing partners to God at all. We are saying something much more than that. (And I expect even more troubling to Muslims; it certainly is to Jews.)


again you try to give the impression that only Jews and Muslims reject the concept of incarnation,ignoring the other systems of religions and atheists that reject the idea as well....


there is no inherent contradiction in that statement

Are you sure?


God being infinite is not limited to just being in the human body of Jesus

VS

ALL the fullness of God was present and dwelling bodily in the person of Jesus
 
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I know the Quran says do not say three- Christians don't say that GOD is 3 gods.

There we go again....
we have here another christian who would teach us that 3 persons each of whom is called God is not 3 gods

You still do not understand the Trinity.


That is true ,the fact that neither you nor anyone else would understand it..
it is a mystery but been solved by the Quran !!
as the best way to solve this trinity mystery is not to understand what trinity is, but to understand what trinity isn't.

The Quran(and common sense too) tells what trinity isn't,but you and those alike prefer to live in such mystery...


Muslims and Christians both know that Jesus never did say that.

And God knows that too ,
(He will say: "Glory is to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely, have known it. You know what is in my inner-self ) Holy Quran 5:116

It was in a false gospel written after the Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John..

in other words does the verse 5:116 is referring to a cult?

No, it doesn't.

why?

1- There is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad's time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD).

2- The Christians in Mecca and it neighbors that time were either Ebionites,Nestorians(was the common christian sect in this area before Islam), those who belong to the Ethiopian church, the Jacobite ....etc....


let's read the sources:


الأب: ألبير أبونا: تاريخ الكنيسة السريانية الشرقية. ج 2 ص 67 ].
والمسيحيين في مكة ينتمون أصول عديدة: احباش واقباط وتجار من نجران ورعايا من الحيرة و الغساسنة وانباط من سوريا, مع بعض الرهبان ومرسَلين, بالأضافة الى نفر من علية القوم الذين اعتنقوا المسيحية..


The Christians in Mecca belonged to varied origins ,Ethiopians,copts,traders from Najran yemen,from Hira ,Ghassanids,syrians.(History of the Eastern Syriac church chapter 2,p.67,by christian Father Alpeir)




وتوغلت الهرطقة النسطورية إلى كل مكان في المشرق، فتعاظم نفوذهم في منطقة ما بين النهرين، ولم تمضي سوى عدة عقود قليلة، حتى أصبح لهم مركزاً هاماً في مملكة ( الحيرة)، ومنها انطلقوا إلى الأراضي الحجازية نفسها، فاختلطوا بالعرب “الأحناف"، وجذبوا الكثيرين منهم ، وصارت لهم مراكز هامة في الخليج، وخصوصاً " البحرين"، ثم أوجدوا لهم مركزاً خطيراً داخل مكة نفسها.

And the cult of Nestorianism spread everywhere in the East, in Iraq then after few decades they had a center in Hira kingdom,and then to Arabia ,they mixed with Arabs and attracted many,and in the Gulf they had important centers especially Bahrain ,they had a very important center in Mecca itself
(from the book End or beginning ,by Samuel Paulus)



It is absurd to think(for those who claim that he is the composer of the Quran not God) that Mohamed (pbuh) would have understood the trinity concept of extinct christian cult ,letting the other common concept of the trinity of all the Christians were living by him .!!!!!


What a week point,indeed ...
 
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In my post I used the definition as illogical conclusion,not to endorse it .
I realized that. And I even made note to that effect. But I want to affirm that though you think it illogical, you did at least accurately state what the incarnation is.

my question was just wondering how would you ask me for permission to use such illogical definition in discussion....
They were your words, you coined the phrase. I believe in giving credit where credit is due.


again you try to give the impression that only Jews and Muslims reject the concept of incarnation,ignoring the other systems of religions and atheists that reject the idea as well....
Sorry if you thought I only conceive of Jews and Muslims as rejecting the incarnation. I know that many others would as well. But these are the two that I perceive as cousin faiths. You are family and even our family would reject these beliefs that we Christians have.



Are you sure?
Yep.

To say that the fullness of God dwells in Jesus says that all that is true of God is true of Jesus. But it is not saying that God is constrained to the limits of Jesus' skin. For instance, when one approaches the king, one might quite rightly feel that one is before one who embodies the full force and weight of the country that the king is sovereign over, but one would never say that the country is limited to simply the person of the king.
 
Only Hindus believe in Incarnation of G-d here. They do believe in G-d the One but He incarnates in everything, even our Kings here is regarded as His Incarnation, the Son of G-d according to our local customs based from Hindu-Buddhism tradition. The same thing you can see is in Thailand.

This is an example of the incarnation of G-d in a King, King Airlangga, the King of Kahuripan Kingdom of East Java, Indonesia. He is depicted as the incarnation of Vishnu.

200pxAirlangga-1.jpg
 
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all that is true of God is true of Jesus. .

God is omniscient:

having and being fully aware of all knowledge of all things actual and possible from the infinitesimal to the infinite in every realm at all times. Acts 15:18: All His works are known to God from eternity. Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.1Jo 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Jesus Not:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

Mark 11:12-14, 19-25

The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.

that is just a sample of the attributes of God that Jesus obviously lacked,proving your statement (all that is true of God is true of Jesus) to be false.....


But it is not saying that God is constrained to the limits of Jesus' skin.


and that is logical the infinite God wouldn't be constrained to the limits of Jesus' skin neither anybody else...

1Kings 8:27: But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this house which I have built?

and that makes the concept , that God dwells in Jesus (they both claimed to be one material)to be absurd.



For instance, when one approaches the king, one might quite rightly feel that one is before one who embodies the full force and weight of the country that the king is sovereign over, but one would never say that the country is limited to simply the person of the king.

You want to say that God dwelled metaphorically in Jesus, the same as the power of the country dwelled metaphorically in the king?!!

If according to the trinitarians Jesus and God are from the same material then God dwelled literally in Jesus....

I'm afraid you got the false analogy..
 
LOL!! imam -There we go again....
A Muslim telling me what to believe the Trinity is.

Are you saying that Mohammad was reprimanding the Christians of his day using his understanding of what the Trinity is? That He thought the Trinity included Mary? And that there was no way the a secret Mary sect was in existance?

There is Collyridianism today.

I do understand the Trinity. I don't know how GOD can do it but I certainly understand the concept. I was simply trying to help Muslims explain a verse that many Christians point to to say the Quran is false.
 

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