GraceSeeker: Continuation of God's Deception Discussion

[AntiKarateKid]

The reason we keep going back and forth is because we my definition of "deception" is in keeping with that of standard English dictionaries. But as you say, such a definition, even if used by every available dictionary of the English language, is contrary to Islam. I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm going to change my definition. It is as you say, the act of convincing another to believe information that is not true. Now, according to the Qur'an, it is not true that Isa actually died on the cross. He only appeared that way. And it appeared this way because Allah convinced those who were present to belief information that was not true with regard to Isa. Yep, that fits my definition of deception. If you recognizes that this is what the word deception means, and further say that Allah did indeed to those things, but still says that Allah didn't actually deceive anyone by doing those very things that convinced people to believe something that was not true and that the word in inappropriate when the actions fit the very definition of deception, then I'm afraid you are also deceiving yourself.

Hey GraceSeeker,

I'd like to continue from this climax in our discussion, since it didn't relate to that last thread.From your posts, I understand that you have a problem with Allah making something appear so, when in reality it isn't, even though I added that people have the ability to make up their own mind.

Shifting this to your turf just a bit, how would explain these obvious cases of deception in the Bible?

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and
the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of
Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and
shut their eyes; lest they see with their hearts... and convert, and be
healed.Isaiah 6:10

Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not
see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted. John 12:361

God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not
see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day. Epistles to Romans 11:8

Why did you have a problem with Allah's use of deception in punishing a people when throughout the Bible, it is exactly the same, maybe more deceptive? (I have about 6 more verses to prove my point further if you wish)

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hey GraceSeeker,

I'd like to continue from this climax in our discussion, since it didn't relate to that last thread.From your posts, I understand that you have a problem with Allah making something appear so, when in reality it isn't, even though I added that people have the ability to make up their own mind.

Shifting this to your turf just a bit, how would explain these obvious cases of deception in the Bible?

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and
the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of
Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and
shut their eyes; lest they see with their hearts... and convert, and be
healed.Isaiah 6:10

Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not
see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted. John 12:361

God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not
see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day. Epistles to Romans 11:8

Why did you have a problem with Allah's use of deception in punishing a people when throughout the Bible, it is exactly the same, maybe more deceptive? (I have about 6 more verses to prove my point further if you wish)

Who says I don't have a problem with these Biblical passages every bit as much? Don't project that onto me. I do. I've wrestled with them for years. You fail to mention an even more grevious case (perhaps it is one of those 6 you have in reserve), that in which it appears that Judas has no choice but to betray Jesus and yet is to be punished for it.

I've come to see them as passages in which it is as you say that God does not actually make people to behave in these ways, but rather that he pushes them so as to reveal the hardness already present in their hearts.

But I do see something different thing in the Qur'an than that which I see in the Bible. Namely that God actually causes people to see an untruth (Jesus appears to them on the cross) as if it were true. Perhaps that is not how it is understood by Muslims, but it is how the passsage appears to read to me in English. Since I don't read Arabic, if you say that this isn't the meaning of the text in Arabic, I will have to accept that. But recalling (and not reviewing) our previous discussion in the other thread, that isn't what I heard you saying the first time.


The other thing was that you said this was not God being deceptive. That he did these things, but there was nothing deceptive about the practice. And I still can't make heads of tails out of that response.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Who says I don't have a problem with these Biblical passages every bit as much? Don't project that onto me. I do. I've wrestled with them for years. You fail to mention an even more grevious case (perhaps it is one of those 6 you have in reserve), that in which it appears that Judas has no choice but to betray Jesus and yet is to be punished for it.

I've come to see them as passages in which it is as you say that God does not actually make people to behave in these ways, but rather that he pushes them so as to reveal the hardness already present in their hearts.

But I do see something different thing in the Qur'an than that which I see in the Bible. Namely that God actually causes people to see an untruth (Jesus appears to them on the cross) as if it were true. Perhaps that is not how it is understood by Muslims, but it is how the passsage appears to read to me in English. Since I don't read Arabic, if you say that this isn't the meaning of the text in Arabic, I will have to accept that. But recalling (and not reviewing) our previous discussion in the other thread, that isn't what I heard you saying the first time.


The other thing was that you said this was not God being deceptive. That he did these things, but there was nothing deceptive about the practice. And I still can't make heads of tails out of that response.

GraceSeeker, I don't understand you. You think that God can harden people's hearts, prevent them from believing to prevent them from converting, yet you distinguish the illusion of Jesus pbuh on the cross from the internal illusions God created in those people's hearts that led them astray? Be realistic, they are both one and the same. But in the Quranic case, Allah didn't do it to prevent them from converting, Allah did it as a punishment. That is the real difference between the Quranic verses and the Biblical ones.

As for your last comment, deception means to convince someone to believe what is wrong. Yet that isn't what Allah did. He presented them with an image and let them decide. The same way as he would present a miracle to a people and let them decide. He doesn't force people in the former or latter.

On a separate note, according to Imam, who is much more knowledgeable than me in the matter, argues that there was no illusion, and that the crucifixion was hearsay and rumor.

 

[Grace Seeker]

GraceSeeker, I don't understand you.

You're right, you don't understand me.

You think that God can harden people's hearts, prevent them from believing to prevent them from converting,

No. That isn't what I said. Read it again: "I've come to see them as passages in which it is as you say that God does not actually make people to behave in these ways, but rather that he pushes them so as to reveal the hardness already present in their hearts." God does not harden their hearts so much as reveal the hardness that is already therein. Like it is the property of concrete to be hard and what God does is make sure that it fully cures. But he doesn't actually create the hardness.

yet you distinguish the illusion of Jesus pbuh on the cross from the internal illusions God created in those people's hearts that led them astray?

Notice it is your words that "God created" that in their hearts, not mine.

Be realistic, they are both one and the same.

They aren't the same because I am not saying that God created that hardness; only you are saying that. I am saying that God only amplified the hardness that they themselves freely choose.

Be that as it may, we don't need to debate the above. It is what it is. But perhaps you can help me to understand how this worked?

But in the Quranic case, Allah didn't do it to prevent them from converting, Allah did it as a punishment. That is the real difference between the Quranic verses and the Biblical ones.

How is it that seeing Jesus on the cross would be a punishment of the Jews? Now, I'm the one who doesn't understand.

As for your last comment, deception means to convince someone to believe what is wrong.

Agreed.

Yet that isn't what Allah did. He presented them with an image and let them decide.

I just don't see this yet. Did Allah expect people to not believe their eyes?

The same way as he would present a miracle to a people and let them decide. He doesn't force people in the former or latter.

I don't get this connection either. Are you saying that miracles are also illusions that we accept by faith because they appear to us this way, but they aren't really so?

On a separate note, according to Imam, who is much more knowledgeable than me in the matter, argues that there was no illusion, and that the crucifixion was hearsay and rumor.

And I have heard another interpret the passage saying that it appeared to the Jews that since they wanted Jesus dead and that he was crucified that they had crucified Jesus, when in reality it wasn't the who crucified Jesus but the Romans who had. The emphasis in that interpretation being not on whether Jesus was or was not crucified, but with regard to who it appeared had done it versus who had actually carried it out.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

GraceSeeker, I don't understand you.

You're right, you don't understand me.

No. That isn't what I said. Read it again: "I've come to see them as passages in which it is as you say that God does not actually make people to behave in these ways, but rather that he pushes them so as to reveal the hardness already present in their hearts." God does not harden their hearts so much as reveal the hardness that is already therein. Like it is the property of concrete to be hard and what God does is make sure that it fully cures. But he doesn't actually create the hardness.

I agree with you but was just emphasizing the part of the verse that said God did it lest they should convert.

Notice it is your words that "God created" that in their hearts, not mine.

Really? The verse says GOD hardened their hearts. God is clearly the subject of the verb.

They aren't the same because I am not saying that God created that hardness; only you are saying that. I am saying that God only amplified the hardness that they themselves freely choose.

God didn't create the hardness but he amplified it? So he created more hardness from the original hardness. This is getting convoluted but he did create some of their hardness, how else would it be amplified?

Be that as it may, we don't need to debate the above. It is what it is. But perhaps you can help me to understand how this worked?

How is it that seeing Jesus on the cross would be a punishment of the Jews? Now, I'm the one who doesn't understand.

As far as I remember, aren't the Jews the ones who rejected him and wanted him killed? The way I see it, Jews in coming generations would be able to look at the facts of his life and decide that he was in fact a Prophet and the Jews who rejected him would be proud that they killed him, and lead themselves further away from the truth.

Agreed.

Cool.

I just don't see this yet. Did Allah expect people to not believe their eyes?

If you saw a Spirit that looked like some pagan god, which asked you to bow down, would you? It's right infront of your eyes, it must be real right? An extreme example but you get the point. You wouldn't believe it. Moreover, remember Jesus appeared alive to the apostles after the supposed crucification. You believe he was resurrected, we believe he never died. People who refused to believe that such a man could be brought low like that were proven right later.

I don't get this connection either. Are you saying that miracles are also illusions that we accept by faith because they appear to us this way, but they aren't really so?

That isn't what I mean. So a better way of describing it would be a test. I was comparing it with a miracle based only on the "making up your own mind" aspect. A miracle could also be considered a test.

And I have heard another interpret the passage saying that it appeared to the Jews that since they wanted Jesus dead and that he was crucified that they had crucified Jesus, when in reality it wasn't the who crucified Jesus but the Romans who had. The emphasis in that interpretation being not on whether Jesus was or was not crucified, but with regard to who it appeared had done it versus who had actually carried it out.

To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the details of the different interpretations and which have the most merit, so I'll have to hold off on my comments about that part.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, after all of that we've identified some things in which we agree and some for which we still don't see eye to eye. My guess is that not all of those are of equal weight. Which ones do you find to be most important to continue to talk about?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

So, after all of that we've identified some things in which we agree and some for which we still don't see eye to eye. My guess is that not all of those are of equal weight. Which ones do you find to be most important to continue to talk about?

I'd say your claim that the Quranic event is different than something Gof would do in the Bible.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'd say your claim that the Quranic event is different than something Gof would do in the Bible.

And for me the difference is that I see the Qur'an presenting God as the author of the confusion (i.e. the apparition that the Jews have that it is Jesus on the cross, when it really isn't) so that it becomes an actual deception, while in the Bible God doesn't create the hardness of their hearts but takes an already hard heart (created by free will) and then amplifies it.

If that distinction is still confusing to you write me next week (I'm going to be tied up the rest of this weekend starting tomorrow) and I'll see if I can find a commentartor who might write about this idea better than I have.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

And for me the difference is that I see the Qur'an presenting God as the author of the confusion (i.e. the apparition that the Jews have that it is Jesus on the cross, when it really isn't) so that it becomes an actual deception, while in the Bible God doesn't create the hardness of their hearts but takes an already hard heart (created by free will) and then amplifies it.

If that distinction is still confusing to you write me next week (I'm going to be tied up the rest of this weekend starting tomorrow) and I'll see if I can find a commentartor who might write about this idea better than I have.

As for the author of confusion part, is it not true that the trinity, which can be seen as so confusing or contradictory that it is classified as a mystery because noone understands it but still has to believe in it? Yet you still believe it from God. Moreover, will not a person like the anti-christ present false miracles to people? Who do you think gave him the authority to do these acts? God of course. It is by his permission that the anti-christ comes to deceive much of mankind. The same thing with the devil. If God wanted he could have gotten rid of him, yet he is allowed to work his mischief as a test for mankind.

To be honest, I believe that the distinction you made is ambiguous and you're comparisons are done with a double standard. I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just think that you aren't applying the same criteria for deception to your beliefs.

 

[Grace Seeker]

As for the author of confusion part, is it not true that the trinity, which can be seen as so confusing or contradictory that it is classified as a mystery because noone understands it but still has to believe in it? Yet you still believe it from God. Moreover, will not a person like the anti-christ present false miracles to people? Who do you think gave him the authority to do these acts? God of course. It is by his permission that the anti-christ comes to deceive much of mankind.

And the book of Job speaks very well to your point also. I'll have to consider that, though not tonight.

To be honest, I believe that the distinction you made is ambiguous and you're comparisons are done with a double standard. I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just think that you aren't applying the same criteria for deception to your beliefs.

Could be. I think we are all blind to the camels we swallow while straining out gnats from other people's soup.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

And the book of Job speaks very well to your point also. I'll have to consider that, though not tonight.

Could be. I think we are all blind to the camels we swallow while straining out gnats from other people's soup.

LOL. I had to read that last sentence a couple of times over before I got it. Take you're time Seeker. I'm always here procrastinating!