Authenticity of the Qur'an

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Re: First Corrupted Verse

Address what is written in my post and stop bouncing around. You'd also be wise to drop your constant appeals to authority (the scholar says so!). Moreover, I don't see where Skye has disagreed with me but even if she did, it doesn't matter. As you can see from my post, you're assertions are dust desperate attempts at discrediting an established aspect of the Quran.

I stated where I got the information from and it is as far as I can see a very reliable source and as a rule I rarely quote from a website because they are more often than not unreliable. I am not appealing to authority, I am not looking for a ruling I am just pointing out the facts about transmission.

YOU say its a fact, an established fact that there has been perfect transmission but I have shown that many do not agree with you and can provide evidence to back it up. If the message of the Qu'ran can be discredited by showing there were variant reading then it has no message of any value and no one I know thinks that. If you whole faith hangs on a single impossible to verify thread of absolute and perfect transmission then you are ignoring its message.
 
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Re: First Corrupted Verse

Address what is written in my post and stop bouncing around. You'd also be wise to drop your constant appeals to authority (the scholar says so!). Moreover, I don't see where Skye has disagreed with me but even if she did, it doesn't matter. As you can see from my post, you're assertions are dust desperate attempts at discrediting an established aspect of the Quran.

It is impossible for the Quran to have been altered at all without disintegrating the religion. Allah specifically promises us that it will be preserved. And thus, if any variations were found between what was memorized and what was written, you would have immediately known.

I show part of the insert you made earlier in bold. I do this to check if it is correct, if it is in fact Islamic doctrine and without accepting it you cannot be a Muslim. That is, if anyone can show the slightest variation, error or any kind; grammatical, poetic - anything then Islam collapses - is that Islamic teaching?
 
you got the info from a 'reliable source' and we should take your word for it because you are an IT tech?
reliable means authentic & amongst other things provable not a paragraph by some shmuck with a title next to his name in under water basket weaving.... Dr. John Martin is a brilliant man, yet all his work on stealth viruses was not only dismissed but cost him his license to practice because he couldn't prove his research to the scientific community thus I'd like to see not only a critique of the Quran but a before and after manuscript with the errors.. in other words, show me some of those original manuscripts that have been made manifest only to 'esack' that the rest of us are either unaware of or hiding which were later amended to reflect something different and now the whole are using the wrong Quran. If you can't put up then shut up!

given how little you know about Islam and the proper art of a debate, I suggest you become less free in peddling terminology that doesn't assert but serves to appease your bruised ego!
 
you got the info from a 'reliable source' and we should take your word for it because you are an IT tech?
reliable means authentic & amongst other things provable not a paragraph by some shmuck with a title next to his name in under water basket weaving.... Dr. John Martin is a brilliant man, yet all his work on stealth viruses was not only dismissed but cost him his license to practice because he couldn't prove his research to the scientific community thus I'd like to see not only a critique of the Quran but a before and after manuscript with the errors.. in other words, show me some of those original manuscripts that have been made manifest only to 'esack' that the rest of us are either unaware of or hiding which were later amended to reflect something different and now the whole are using the wrong Quran. If you can't put up then shut up!

given how little you know about Islam and the proper art of a debate, I suggest you become less free in peddling terminology that doesn't assert but serves to appease your bruised ego!

I gave you the source so that YOU can check it out, I regard professor Esack as reliable. If you do not that is a matter for you but its hardly a considered or rational response to a Harvard Professor to call him 'shmuck', all that does is betray your closed mindset.

I know little about Dr Martin but it was a question of ethics not brilliance that led to his downfall so I cannot see what point if any you are making.

I cannot show you any manuscript of the Qu'ran because there are none from the time of the prophet. If you have copies then tell us where they are. Let me quote again Esack.

"Arabic script as we know it today was unknown in the Prophet's time and the Qur'an was recorded in a scripta defectiva made up of simple lines and strokes. Early Qur'anic Arabic thus lacked precision because distinguishing between consonants was impossible given the absence of diacritical marks (a'jam) by which one recognizes these in modern Arabic. Furthermore, the vowelling marks (tashkil) to indicate prolongation or vowels were also absent. All of this made for endless possibilities in meanings and error in transcription. The Arabic script as we know it today, the scripta plena, with its pointed texts and being fully vowelled, was not perfected until the middle of the ninth century".(See 'The Qu'ran' ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7, pages 110 and 111)

Professor Esack also show that there were several Qu'ran variants citing early Muslim Scholars such as Al Ashtah, Ibn Dawud and and Ibn al-Anbari who all dealt with these variant codices. In Kufa for example, the version of 'Abd Hillah ibn Mas'ud remained in vogue for some time and there are indications that he refused Uthman's instructions to stop teaching his version and to destroy copies of it.
 
I gave you the source so that YOU can check it out, I regard professor Esack as reliable. If you do not that is a matter for you but its hardly a considered or rational response to a Harvard Professor to call him 'shmuck', all that does is betray your closed mindset.

If I am making an argument with assertion, I'd better do my homework and not delegate it to other people. If you had something of substance to impart as per esack then bring it here with a before and after manuscript and the lone folks who have kept on their ways using vague idioms?
I know little about Dr Martin but it was a question of ethics not brilliance that led to his downfall so I cannot see what point if any you are making.
You know nothing about Dr. John Martin, not just little and indeed he is a brilliant scientist given all his awards prior to his breakdown you know little of his work, as you know very little of many people's work but like to strut with bravado see who is ignorant and can lap your crap up.. His work has nothing whatsoever to do with ethics, it has to do with what a man imagines in an abstract fashion and what he makes manifest through physical provable lab work!

I cannot show you any manuscript of the Qu'ran because there are none from the time of the prophet. If you have copies then tell us where they are. Let me quote again Esack.
Ah, there are none you say? yet you insist that there were some that differed and my question is, how? in order for that statement to be correct there has to be an object of comparison!
such objects must have come from the middle east, and would have been known about by traditional Islamic scholars.. how is it that Esak has a secondary opinion that differs from the rest? is it that he has an agenda not dissimilar to yours?

"Arabic script as we know it today was unknown in the Prophet's time and the Qur'an was recorded in a scripta defectiva made up of simple lines and strokes. Early Qur'anic Arabic thus lacked precision because distinguishing between consonants was impossible given the absence of diacritical marks (a'jam) by which one recognizes these in modern Arabic. Furthermore, the vowelling marks (tashkil) to indicate prolongation or vowels were also absent. All of this made for endless possibilities in meanings and error in transcription. The Arabic script as we know it today, the scripta plena, with its pointed texts and being fully vowelled, was not perfected until the middle of the ninth century".(See 'The Qu'ran' ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7, pages 110 and 111)
Ah, and I have indeed I have showed you in bold Arabic text on the previous page a Quranic phrase with and without the tashkil (which by the way most keyboards come without) as well with or without the dotting and asserted that it is quite easy for any Arabic speaker to read it with or without it, rather such 'tashkil' was done so that non-Arabic speakers can learn proper parsing. and the same reason why with each copy that was sent to the newly Islamic regions were also sent with an Arabic Hafith to ensure proper tutelage. Folks didn't even need to see copies of the Quran at all if they had learned it by heart.. The Language of the Quran is the language upon which proper qawa3id and i3rab are based, it is what is considered standardized not idiomatic and it is what everyone learns in school. People don't for instance join an English class and learn Ebonics, even though they might understand it, they don't use it on official documents. The Quran is in its official standardized queryshi form from the moment of revelation until today and anyone reading the Quran conforms to that standard.. furthermore the fact that he or you know that early manuscript don't have such tashkil is that in and of itself a testament that the earliest manuscript do indeed exist (which actually they do as I have not only recommended the reading with copies of said manuscripts but have also shown them quite extensively here on board) and it makes for a complete negation of you alleging that the earliest manuscript aren't in existence today!
Since you have no proof of what you allege of different copies of the Quran or different recitation but wish really badly that there were so you'd not be found out for a fool and not a scholar, then I suggest you button up to spare yourself any further public humiliation?

Professor Esack also show that there were several Qu'ran variants citing early Muslim Scholars such as Al Ashtah, Ibn Dawud and and Ibn al-Anbari who all dealt with these variant codices. In Kufa for example, the version of 'Abd Hillah ibn Mas'ud remained in vogue for some time and there are indications that he refused Uthman's instructions to stop teaching his version and to destroy copies of it.
If the en vogue copy was present for sometime then why is it that the entire Muslim world whether 90% sunni or 10% shia have the exact same copy of the Quran with unified reading where no other idiom is used? an example is someone from Egypt would say izyek, someone from the gulf says eish loonik, someone from Lebanon says keyf halik, we all understand each other but no such applications is made when it comes to the Quran.. until such a time you show us a before and after you can take your active imagination and let it lead you astray on some other path.. since this one has proven a cul de sac!

all the best
 
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as an addendum to the above, here is an Arabic keyboard to show that no such tashkil exists on them:

http://www.arabic-keyboard.org/

that proper parsing in Arabic grammar is dictated from the words themselves in their context.. of course you'd have to know something about Arabic to understand how that actually works and not elicit a hearty guffaw from the rest of us Arabic speakers.
 
Re: First Corrupted Verse

I stated where I got the information from and it is as far as I can see a very reliable source and as a rule I rarely quote from a website because they are more often than not unreliable. I am not appealing to authority, I am not looking for a ruling I am just pointing out the facts about transmission.

YOU say its a fact, an established fact that there has been perfect transmission but I have shown that many do not agree with you and can provide evidence to back it up. If the message of the Qu'ran can be discredited by showing there were variant reading then it has no message of any value and no one I know thinks that. If you whole faith hangs on a single impossible to verify thread of absolute and perfect transmission then you are ignoring its message.

I have shown you that what you claim to be variants or what have you, are indeed NOT. Read what I wrote and see that no matter where you got your info from, it has been refuted by Muslim scholars.

Moreover, If I suspect that you are cherry picking the comments of the Muslim scholar you keep mentioning and fail to read his whole commentary.

Take a gander at my links and see that you are wrong. They are not VARIANTS, they are differences in PRONUNCIATION of the same WORDS! Get with it.
 
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First of all I never said there were "HUGE" differences that come out of variant readings. But let me ask you, were there variant readings or not. Professor Esack (ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7), page 116 and 117 lists 7 such reading - is he not telling the truth?

hhhmmm... Isn't Professor Essak talking more about minor variations as opposed to major changes?????? AT least that is my understanding!
 
^ And you shouldn't, either.

May I dare ask why? I believe if you get evidence of something, your belief in that doctrine is enhanced. Isn't that the case?

Plus I have read so much negative stuff in this forum. I am wondering if I am at the right place or not? Are you guys open to discussion? Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.
 
May I dare ask why? I believe if you get evidence of something, your belief in that doctrine is enhanced. Isn't that the case?

Plus I have read so much negative stuff in this forum. I am wondering if I am at the right place or not? Are you guys open to discussion? Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.
good idea would be to make a thread about it
 
Brother Zafran,

So are you trying to say Sir that we should have blind faith and never question it? When Quran actually asks us for "Mushahida" observation. I would like to hear your response sir.
 
My Research indicates that the Qura'n in Tashkent (Often attributed to third Caliph Hadrazt Uthma'n (R.A)) was written in second century Hijra, or 8th century A.D. But there are so many doubts. The carbon-dating of a folio from this manuscript was carried out at Oxford. The result showed a 68% probability of a date between 640 CE and 765 CE, and a 95% probability of a date between 595 CE and 855 CE.[5] Commenting on this result, Rezvan noted that the paleographic dating of this manuscript also indicated a date at the turn of the eight / ninth century CE.[6]

Although the dates generated by the radiocarbon dating at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

It is quite possible that it was hadrat Uthma'n's(R.A) Qura'n.
 
Brother Zafran,

So are you trying to say Sir that we should have blind faith and never question it? When Quran actually asks us for "Mushahida" observation. I would like to hear your response sir.

Salaam

no I was talking about

I am wondering if I am at the right place or not? Are you guys open to discussion? Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.

peace
 
Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.


Going toward islam or moving away is a solo journey not a community effort. Better to have one established highly educated Muslim than 10 weak in knowledge, will power and study.. they do the whole more harm than good...


perhaps we are closed minded? who is to say, perhaps you've not been here long enough to acknowledge every intimate forum detail?
in fact we have many sections that are for brisk reading before starting a debate such as the 'discover islam' section... certainly one should have some minor knowledge in the field in which s/he is to gauge before getting into a debate!

whatever the case certainly no one is forced to stay on board.. anyone who doesn't like it here has the freedom not to be here!

all the best!
 
My Research indicates that the Qura'n in Tashkent (Often attributed to third Caliph Hadrazt Uthma'n (R.A)) was written in second century Hijra, or 8th century A.D. But there are so many doubts. The carbon-dating of a folio from this manuscript was carried out at Oxford. The result showed a 68% probability of a date between 640 CE and 765 CE, and a 95% probability of a date between 595 CE and 855 CE.[5] Commenting on this result, Rezvan noted that the paleographic dating of this manuscript also indicated a date at the turn of the eight / ninth century CE.[6]

Although the dates generated by the radiocarbon dating at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

It is quite possible that it was hadrat Uthma'n's(R.A) Qura'n.

What you have to remember is that the Quran was memorized by thousands and thousands of Sahaba. All Uthman did was choose the original pronunciations (everyone had the same words) and compile it all in written form.

When it was compiled, not a single one of the Sahaba objected to its contents. This is because it was the same as what everyone had memorized. It was impossible to alter the Quran or to "lose" parts of it.

Moreover, it is important to have evidence to back up your faith brother. But in order to question certain aspects of the Quran, you have to first have a more thorough understanding of how the verses were revealed, their context, etc. A person may find that they get in over their heads quickly because of the amount of material being cited or required for the discussion of said question. That being said, keep studying and you'll gind all the evidence you require.
 
My Research indicates that the Qura'n in Tashkent (Often attributed to third Caliph Hadrazt Uthma'n (R.A)) was written in second century Hijra, or 8th century A.D. But there are so many doubts. The carbon-dating of a folio from this manuscript was carried out at Oxford. The result showed a 68% probability of a date between 640 CE and 765 CE, and a 95% probability of a date between 595 CE and 855 CE.[5] Commenting on this result, Rezvan noted that the paleographic dating of this manuscript also indicated a date at the turn of the eight / ninth century CE.[6]

Although the dates generated by the radiocarbon dating at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

It is quite possible that it was hadrat Uthma'n's(R.A) Qura'n.
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The Qur'anic Manuscripts
There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.
The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.
The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are many Qur'anic manuscripts written in the hijazi script which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. Many more manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra.We will be showing only a few examples below.
A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.
A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.
Looking for something similar? Try
1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography
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On The Origins Of The Kufic Script
The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.
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The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.
It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.
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From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an
A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!
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Concise List Of Arabic Manuscripts Of The Qur'ān Attributable To The First Century Hijra.
The study of ancient manuscripts of the Qur'an is steadily gathering pace. In decades past, a few scholars have compiled lists of Qur'anic manuscripts attributable to the 1st century hijra. Although helpful, these lists contain only the barest details, usually only the name of the manuscript concerned or sometimes even less. With this in mind, we have constructed this document that contains additional details providing further insights into these valuable manuscripts, accompanied by full bibliographic references. A discussion of how scholars date early Qur'anic manuscripts and an assessment of the value of these manuscripts is also provided along with some detailed mathematical calculations. Should one ponder over this list, they will come to the appreciation scholars involved in this field of study suffer from an embarrassment of riches. Quite simply, there is no other work from the Late Antiquity that comes close to the Qur'an in terms of the number of their earliest manuscripts including textual content.
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Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts
Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.
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Dated Texts Containing The Qur’an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.
The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.
2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts
THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS
No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.
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The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.
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The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in Kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).
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The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late the ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.
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The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript.
FIRST CENTURY HIJRA
Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.
Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra and consists of 36 folios. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of £2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. Below is a detailed description of some of the folios from this codex.
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-25.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 29 folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The verses divisions indicate the beginning of the usage of simple ornamentation which is nothing but adjacent strokes. An interesting feature of this early ijāzī manuscript is the presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah which is followed immediately by sūrah al-Baqarah. The presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah is rare in the Qur'ans from first century hijra, the only other known example being the “Great Umayyad Qur'ān”, DAM 20-33.1, also from Ṣanʿāʾ.
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. This codex was probably written by at least two different copyists as the scripts differ in various folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The sūrahs are separated by simple ornaments. The are 9 published folios of this codex but it is believed that others also exist. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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Arabe 328a – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.
This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from 1st century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana (Vat. Ar. 1605) and the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Acc. no. KFQ 60). This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 26% of the total text of the Qur'an. The discussion on the folio at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana is available here.
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MS. Or. 2165 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.
Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.
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The “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 20-33.1) From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.
This monumental and the earliest Kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Apparently 25(?) folios from this codex survive. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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The “Damascus Umayyad Qur'ān” TIEM ŞE 321 – 1st Century Of Hijra.
This manuscript was dated by Déroche using art-historical methods to the time after 72 AH / 691-692 CE or more probably during the last quater of the 1st (early 8th) century AH. It is written in Kufic or perhaps late ḥijāzī script. The letters are spread over the entire page due to an extensive use of elongation of horizontal connections or to a regular spacing of the letters or groups of letters irrespective of being part of the word or not. The sūrah headings are illuminated. The illumination of this Qur'an relies on motifs which find their parallels with the mosaics at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. The codex has 33+ folios and is located at the Türk ve İslam Eserleri Müzesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.
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The ‘Mingana Palimpsest’ – A Manuscript Containing The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.
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Inv. No. LNS 19 CAab – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
This manuscript bears a striking resemblence to the British Musuem Ms. Or. 2165. Just like the latter, the former is not vocalised. The consonants are frequently differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a red hollow circle surrounded by dots. Even the size of the folio is same as those found in Ms. Or. 2165. Thus, it can be said with reasonable certainty that both Ms. Or. 2165 and LNS 19 CAab belong to the same codex. There is one folio in this collection. Located at Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah, Kuwait.
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Ms. Or. Fol. 4313 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex has 8 folios. Manuscript on parchment. The muṣḥaf is not vocalised. The consonants are differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs usually punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a hollow circle surrounded by dots. Folios located at Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin, Germany, and Dār al-Kutub al-Misriyya, Cairo.
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An ‘Umayyad’ Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.
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A Qur'ānic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.
Eight folios (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains sūrah āl-‘Imrān, verses 34-184.
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A Qur'ānic Leaf In The Ḥijāzī Script On Vellum, 1st Century Of Hijra.
It is written in the ḥijāzī script in brown ink on vellum. No vocalization, verses indicated occasionally by four dots; a few dots and angled dashes indicating diacritical marks and consonants.
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A Perg. 2 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. Yellowish, thin parchment with strong damage. Located at the Austrian National Library, Vienna
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A Perg. 213 – A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the ḥijāzī script. Two folios extant.
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A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.
A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.
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P. Michaélidès No. 32 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Collection George Michaélidès, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.
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A Ma‘il Manuscript in Kuwait – A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma‘il script [External Link].
FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA
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Codex Mixt. 917 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-28.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.
This codex, found in the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, has 60 folios. There is a clear definition of the text area and of the distance between the lines which has given a uniform appearance, a feature which is generally uncommon in the ḥijāzī manuscripts. Diacritical marks are frequent. It has Qur'an 2:1–71:14 (fragmented, not sequential text).
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-18.3 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the late ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 16 folios. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The vertical format is a common feature of most Qur'ans written in the ḥijāzī style. This example is an exception, where the horizontal format contradicts somewhat vertical features of the script.
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Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SECOND CENTURY HIJRA
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-30.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
It is written in the late ḥijāzī script. There are about 32 lines per page. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The indication of the end of every tenth verses has been added later. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 9 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-32.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the late ḥijāzī script. About 12 lines per page. It has few diacritical marks but the vocalization is probably contemporary. The style bears many features common to both ḥijāzī and early Kufic, or perhaps show a transition from the former to the latter. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 7 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.2 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
This beautiful codex is one of the two Qur'ans found in Ṣanʿāʾ which resemble the monumental codex from Syria, the “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ – DAM 20-33.1). Their similarity in size, proportion, number of lines, script and illumination suggest that the “Great Umayyad Qur'an” may have served as a model. The fragments from this codex reflect the Syrian codex in quality rather than features. The letters are spaciously distributed and once connected individual letters tend to blend with their neighbours. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 10 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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Codex TIEM ŞE 12995 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The interesting part of this manuscript is the use of different colour of inks. Four varieties of ink have been used for the copy of the text. In addition of the most common used brown ink, the scribe also employed a red, an orange and a green one. These inks are not connected with the beginning or the end of sūrahs. The usage of inks does not follow any rule or sequence. However, an interesting patterning of the coloured inks is applied to the last three lines of a sūrah and the first three lines of the next one. For example, the end of sūrah al-Nisā is written in green and contrasts wiith the first and third lines of sūrah al-Mā'idah which are written in red, the second one being also in green. Only 22 folios of this codex survive. It is written in the reading of Ibn ʿĀmir. Located at the Türk ve İslam Eserleri Müzesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.
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The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph ‘Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ‘Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.​
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The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.​
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A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.
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A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.
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A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.
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A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.
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A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.
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A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in themashq script.
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One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.
An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).
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A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].
SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA
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Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An‘am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An‘am.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
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Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS
EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS
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Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page
It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.
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The Schøyen Collection, National Library Of Norway
It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.
3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijāzī or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.
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Y. Dutton, "An Early Muṣḥaf According To The Reading Of Ibn ‘Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.
This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn ‘Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.
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Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's ‘Oldest Qur'an Manuscript’ (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.
The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript Arabe 328a in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn ‘Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.
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Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.
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Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.
This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

  1. Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
  2. The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
  3. The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.
4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections
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Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain (See the manuscripts from 1st and 1st/2nd century of hijra).​
© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
 
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Gossamer Skye

I have read Islamic history in detail (Seerat un nabbi by Ibn E Hisham, who quotes it from Ibn e Ishaaq, earliest known biographer of our Holy Prophet Muhammad). I went to school in Pakistan for 14years. I do not know how familiar you are with our education system, but Islamic Education is embedded in our schools and is obligatory, so I dare say that I do have "some little amount" of knowledge regarding Islam. And please next time do not make assumptions that someone is ignorant or unlearned. Just because some one disagrees with you does not mean that he is ignorant.

You are right in saying that I am new to the forum, so it will take me a little time to adjust. Please be patient. Thank you.

Wasalam.
 
Now back to the topic

I believe there is enough evidence to support the authenticity of the Quran Orally and written - Focus on the unbroken chain of scholars.

peace
 
What you have to remember is that the Quran was memorized by thousands and thousands of Sahaba. All Uthman did was choose the original pronunciations (everyone had the same words) and compile it all in written form.

When it was compiled, not a single one of the Sahaba objected to its contents. This is because it was the same as what everyone had memorized. It was impossible to alter the Quran or to "lose" parts of it.

Moreover, it is important to have evidence to back up your faith brother. But in order to question certain aspects of the Quran, you have to first have a more thorough understanding of how the verses were revealed, their context, etc. A person may find that they get in over their heads quickly because of the amount of material being cited or required for the discussion of said question. That being said, keep studying and you'll gind all the evidence you require.



I agree to some parts of your post brother. Uthman was merely a compiler. But you need to double check your statement "not a single one among the sahaba objected to it". Thank you very much.
 
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