Terror suspect student 'had suicide vest and explosives'

[aadil77]

I would never in a million years turn a brother into the police. Things like this need to be taken care of in-house. That is quite a statement right here that you would willingly turn a fellow muslim into the hands of "kuffar justice".

Ok bro lets say he was for definate gonna do it, what 'justice' would you carry out on him, if you are unable to stop him what would you do?

I still don't understand why some people have this opinion of being against 'kuffar justice' , if a muslim murdered your mum in a non muslim country, what would you do? lets say in this case you're unable to kill the the guy

 

[Grofica]

I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.

The thing i dont get is why they always blame islam... there are radicals of every major relgious... i believe being crazy has nothing to do with religion. :exhausted

 

[convert]

Ok bro lets say he was for definate gonna do it, what 'justice' would you carry out on him, if you are unable to stop him what would you do?

I still don't understand why some people have this opinion of being against 'kuffar justice' , if a muslim murdered your mum in a non muslim country, what would you do? lets say in this case you're unable to kill the the guy

Akhi, it is fard to get your fellow brothers out of the prisons of the kuffar and you are arguing it is ok to send them there?

If I found out something like this was going on, I would advise him and make sure I am hounding him daily to give him companionship. It is easy for converts to come to such groups as the salafi cult and the anarchist groups that masquerade as jihadis when nobody will talk to them. This is a complete failure on the muslims of the brother's community on both parts.

 

[aadil77]

Akhi, it is fard to get your fellow brothers out of the prisons of the kuffar and you are arguing it is ok to send them there?

If I found out something like this was going on, I would advise him and make sure I am hounding him daily to give him companionship. It is easy for converts to come to such groups as the salafi cult and the anarchist groups that masquerade as jihadis when nobody will talk to them. This is a complete failure on the muslims of the brother's community on both parts.

Yes I understand this failure.

My point is that if we can't stop it ourselves then I'd rather he get sent to prison than have to taste the punishment of jahanam for even a second. We know these things are clear cut suicide and murder = haraam, you do them you're not gonna get a chance to repent cause you've just wasted yourself. Allahu Alim wether he gets punished or not, but we should be stopping it anyway because we are aware of these sins.

Your point about 'kuffar justice' and prison, would you turn a brother in if you were unable to prevent it and it was a islamic country, if so what country would that be? And what if the punishment handed down by the 'kuffar' is the same as in an islamic country?

You still haven't answered my question about that other scenario

What should we be worried about more, his welfare in this short dunya or on the day of Qiyamah?

 

[convert]

Yes I understand this failure.

My point is that if we can't stop it ourselves then I'd rather he get sent to prison than have to taste the punishment of jahanam for even a second. We know these things are clear cut suicide and murder = haraam, you do them you're not gonna get a chance to repent cause you've just wasted yourself. Allahu Alim wether he gets punished or not, but we should be stopping it anyway because we are aware of these sins.

Your point about 'kuffar justice' and prison, would you turn a brother in if you were unable to prevent it and it was a islamic country, if so what country would that be? And what if the punishment handed down by the 'kuffar' is the same as in an islamic country?

You still haven't answered my question about that other scenario

What should we be worried about more, his welfare in this short dunya or on the day of Qiyamah?

That is very convoluted thinking. Stop and think: do you think you would be ok on yawm al qiyamah after doing such a thing? Stop something with your hand, dont pass it on to people who will take it to that extra level and sensationalize it simply because he is muslim.

 

[aadil77]

That is very convoluted thinking. Stop and think: do you think you would be ok on yawm al qiyamah after doing such a thing? Stop something with your hand, dont pass it on to people who will take it to that extra level and sensationalize it simply because he is muslim.

I'm not just reffering to this particular case, because I agree it may been sensationalized or the brother might not have even had the intentions do such a thing. But brother I think you're not quite aware of the punishment of the akhira, you're not thinking out this mans akhira if he'd gone ahead, all you're worried about is this impression that you must show that you're as disassociated from kuffar as possible.

I think on the day of qiyamah these muslims may even be rewarded for it. I think when this guy sits down and thinks about what he could have got himself into if he hadn't have been stopped he may even think good of them. Whereas I think someone with an attitude like yours might even be liable of qiyamah for not stopping the brother because you worried about his prison sentance. Where does following 'the law of the land' come into this

 

[convert]

I'm not just reffering to this particular case, because I agree it may been sensationalized or the brother might not have even had the intentions do such a thing. But brother I think you're not quite aware of the punishment of the akhira, you're not thinking out this mans akhira if he'd gone ahead, all you're worried about is this impression that you must show that you're as disassociated from kuffar as possible.

I think on the day of qiyamah these muslims may even be rewarded for it. I think when this guy sits down and thinks about what he could have got himself into if he hadn't have been stopped he may even think good of them. Whereas I think someone with an attitude like yours might even be liable of qiyamah for not stopping the brother because you worried about his prison sentance. Where does following 'the law of the land' come into this

We obviously disagree akhi. I believe I have read daleel to support my position, I will try to find it again. The highlighted statement seems very wrong to me.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

How do you suggest they should have stopped a potential suicide bombers with their own hands?

i mean advice him if they knew something. if they are able to stop it with their own hands without getting others involved then i dont see why they shouldn’t.

And it puts the Muslim community in a positive light.

I doubt it. People automatically look at the negatives before the positives, whether it's in regards to the affairs of the Muslims or otherwise. That and the fact that when stuff like this gets out into the public eye, it will be portrayed as something negative, what with the headlines and all. I mean you only have to look at the headlines of the articles posted in this thread to know what i mean.

Well there have been individuals who converted to Islam right after September 11th despite how the media portrayed Islam. Islam is already frowned upon the general public however there are still people who still convert to Islam, though of course those people did not have any intention to plot terrorist activities or make explosives.

im not referring to one's conversion, that's something else here. im referring to converting and plotting a terrorist attack whilst fully knowing how its seen by the media as well as the general public. if you know something is frowned upon by society (in this case a terrorist attack), chances are you'd back off. converting is something and plotting what you have allegedly plotted whilst knowing how its seen by everyone, i really do think its highly unlikely.

I don't think the Bristol community have betrayed him. They actually stopped him from committing further sins.

you can stop one from committing further sins without humiliating them, and putting other Muslims under baseless suspicion.

The Muslim community should learn from this, take precautions and try to gain a better understanding of why some people convert to Islam to ensure this does not happen again.

i completely disagree with you on that. you cant probe into people reasons as to why they convert! how do you know you wont put them off? and even if you did find out something "fishy" what are you going to say: im sorry you cant convert to Islam, your reasons don't meet our standards?

no-one neither can or has the right to...

What would have been really saddening is if a bunch of bumbling amateurs with some ridiculous idea of keeping the matter within a particular community had messed it up and a bomb been exploded killing both them and him.

Whose to say they would have messed it up?

This was clearly a matter for the professionals, as is his punishment and possibly psychiatric treatment. Do you not understand what this person might have done?

of course i do! what i mean and should have elaborated on earlier is that if the muslim community can do somehting about these matters WITHIN the community itself, then that should happen. if they are able to sort of out the problem, i don't see why they need "out-siders" involved. i mean either way the problem would have been sorted, which is what we want.

 

[adil hasnain]

Salaam Alakum warkhmatulah wabarakatuh


I think we should help to convert people to Islam however we should also try to purify our deen and the deen of our fellow brothers and sisters.Straighten out any errors and misconceptions between the Ummah.As nowerdays young muslims are getting confused including me about what is correct and what is not and this is what the eneemies of Islam want.As if there is no unity and we think very differently we are not one Ummah.Like take for example the Danish cartoons and sweedish cartoons depictuing Muhammed saws as a dog anazubillah(it makes me feel sick).We are meant to do something about it you know that but even top muslims say no.


I shall quickly explain this to you

In the time of Muhammed saws this used to happen poetry about Muhammed saws insulting him.So the sahhaba asked what shall we do and he said kill them.Now Muhammed saws is passed away he is not here to forgive the person who did it as he is the only person to forgive the people who insult his name.So we have to do what he told us to do back then

Salaam alakum

If I have made any mistake please correct me

 

[GuestFellow]

im not referring to one's conversion, that's something else here. im referring to converting and plotting a terrorist attack whilst fully knowing how its seen by the media as well as the general public. if you know something is frowned upon by society (in this case a terrorist attack), chances are you'd back off. converting is something and plotting what you have allegedly plotted whilst knowing how its seen by everyone, i really do think its highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely yes though there is always a chance of someone committing the actions stated above. Murderers are looked down upon society, but that does not stop individuals killing other people.

BTW we never know why he exactly converted to Islam. What I think he converted to Islam and then began to get interested in explosives and past suicide bombers. I too highly doubt he would have converted to Islam to commit terrorist plots. Yes that part doesn't make sense.

O.O

you can stop one from committing further sins without humiliating them, and putting other Muslims under baseless suspicion.

He deserved to be humilated. I personally cannot have any mercy upon a person who potentially could have killed hundred of innocent people regardless of their religion, their ethnic background or their views. Unless if they were sorry.

Maybe it was baseless suspicion. When the police got involved, their suspicisons have been confirmed.

i completely disagree with you on that. you cant probe into people reasons as to why they convert! how do you know you wont put them off? and even if you did find out something "fishy" what are you going to say: im sorry you cant convert to Islam, your reasons don't meet our standards?

I do not think I said to spy or interrogate Muslim converts. If there happened to be a troubled indiviudal who converted to Islam, then he should recieve all the reasonable help that he should get (if they want the help). I never said to use force to tell Muslim convets why they have turned to Islam. Naturally I know many converts that are very happy to share why they have chosen Islam, without me even asking them. If they happpen to get the wrong idea of Islam, it should be our duty to some extent clear up those misconceptions.

No I would not say this: im sorry you cant convert to Islam, your reasons don't meet our standards?

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Highly unlikely yes though there is always a chance of someone committing the actions stated above. Murderers are looked down upon society, but that does not stop individuals killing other people.

you still don't understand it :uhwhat

He deserved to be humiliated.

no Muslim deserved to be humiliated! and why should we have to turn to humiliation if there are other valid options open, like advising one as i mentioned previously? if we are talking about stopping someone from committing sins (as you mentioned previously), then why does/should humiliation be used? as i said, you can stop one form committing sins without that option imo...

 

[GuestFellow]

you still don't understand it :uhwhat

lol I edited it. Read my post again. XD

no Muslim deserved to be humiliated!

If they did something wrong, why not?

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

If they did something wrong, why not?

see my previous post..

When the police got involved, their suspicisons have been confirmed.

what about other Muslims who are unjustfully put under the microscope due to baseless suspicious...the brother who grows his bears and the sister who wears her hijaab...all these are going to be frowned upon for being Muslim becuase someone accused someone else...

 

[GuestFellow]

see my previous post..

Yes that makes much more sense. Humiliating might make them angry or might lead to undesirable consequences.

what about other Muslims who are unjustfully put under the microscope due to baseless suspicious...the brother who grows his bears and the sister who wears her hijaab...all these are going to be frowned upon for being Muslim becuase someone accused someone else...

Well I agree the government and their war against terror has spiral out of control lately and they begin to suspect anyone who has a beard or wears a hijaab. Yes making false accusations is not right and to put them under the spot light, until they have been proven guilty.

 

[convert]

Some replies in here are absolutely shocking. British society will still hate and fear you no matter how much you suck up to them and give them the "terrorists" amongst you.

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me."

 

[Al Ansari]

I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.

In the name of Allaah

I understand how a convert could have this mentality. Are you saying that Islaam does not condone self-sacrifice? ( I am not speaking bombings, but on missions which one would be certain in their knowledge that they could lose their life over this?

I have read fatawah on both sides of the issue and from some of the narrations and stories, I can see how self-sacrifice was not condemned-however, suicide was. The key is niyyah, yet if it is haraam in itself, a niyyah would make it halal.

Wa Allaahu alim

 

[Trumble]

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me."

Always a powerful piece... which you apparently do not understand in the slightest. The whole point is that communists, social democrats, trade unionists and Jews were totally innocent of any crime. Had they, instead, been in possession of bombs with the intention of slaughtering innocent civilians in the name of whatever cause it happened to be even the Nazis would have been perfectly entitled to arrest them to stop them doing it.

If you stay silent and some idiot like this does go ahead with his plans, the blood will be on YOUR hands as much as his. Are you willing to accept that?

 

[GuestFellow]

Some replies in here are absolutely shocking. British society will still hate and fear you no matter how much you suck up to them and give them the "terrorists" amongst you.

Not all British people hate Muslims. I have many friends at college that are not Muslims and they don't have anything against me or my religion. In fact they respect my beliefs and values.

If there is a Muslim or a non-Muslim plotting terrorist attacks I would contact the police and inform them. That does not mean I am sucking up to anyone, in fact all I am doing is preventing hundreds of innocent getting killed. Do you think it is right to allow these certain individuals to kill hundred of innocent people? All your doing is sucking up to the criminal if you allow these dangerous activities to occur.

People should be encouraged to contact the police of any criminal matters.

 

[convert]

Always a powerful piece... which you apparently do not understand in the slightest. The whole point is that communists, social democrats, trade unionists and Jews were totally innocent of any crime. Had they, instead, been in possession of bombs with the intention of slaughtering innocent civilians in the name of whatever cause it happened to be even the Nazis would have been perfectly entitled to arrest them to stop them doing it.

If you stay silent and some idiot like this does go ahead with his plans, the blood will be on YOUR hands as much as his. Are you willing to accept that?

No, I understand it. I take it you don't understand the context I am using it it?

I worry about sending my brother to the kuffar prisons on judgement day.

Not all British people hate Muslims. I have many friends at college that are not Muslims and they don't have anything against me or my religion. In fact they respect my beliefs and values.

If there is a Muslim or a non-Muslim plotting terrorist attacks I would contact the police and inform them. That does not mean I am sucking up to anyone, in fact all I am doing is preventing hundreds of innocent getting killed. Do you think it is right to allow these certain individuals to kill hundred of innocent people? All your doing is sucking up to the criminal if you allow these dangerous activities to occur.

People should be encouraged to contact the police of any criminal matters.

I advise you to check you iman here. If I heard that from you, the first thing I would do is advise the community to stay away from you.

You are using red herrings to skirt the issue: YOU DO NOT SEND YOUR MUSLIM BROTHERS OR SISTERS TO KUFFAR PRISONS!

Also, not one of you has grasped what I am saying. Never once have I condoned or endorsed any bombings. I just tell you you are 100% in the wrong if you think its ok to hand a muslim brother or sister over to the kuffar. If you think something wrong is going to happen THEN DEAL WITH HIM PERSONALLY! TELL PEOPLE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY WHO CAN HANDLE! DO NOT GIVE ANYONE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SENSATIONALIZE SOMETHING LIKE THIS! Things like this need to be dealt with in-house.

Also: so you admit to taking awliyah others than whom Allah has commanded?

 

[aadil77]

Brother I thought about it and I think I understand your view. Its kind of like everyman for himself, It would be his own fault if he had gone and done it after what ever help muslims would have given him and then also you won't be at fault for sending him to prison. Thats how it will be on the Day of Qiyamah, you wont be at fault because of someone elses sins.
I don't think anyone here is sucking up to kuffar, I definately am not I have the brothers interests at heart.

I'm still finding it hard to understand why it is that bad to let another muslim get punished by 'kuffar', if its potentially saving him from a much worse torment in the akhira then whats the problem? I still want to know what you would do if you were badly wronged by a muslim in a non muslim country and were unable to do anything about it yourself? Would you just forgive and forget for the sake of saving him kuffar 'justice'?