Terror suspect student 'had suicide vest and explosives'

[GuestFellow]

No, I understand it. I take it you don't understand the context I am using it it?

I worry about sending my brother to the kuffar prisons on judgement day.

I advise you to check you iman here. If I heard that from you, the first thing I would do is advise the community to stay away from you.

Why? What have I done to the community? I really care for the Muslim community...

You are using red herrings to skirt the issue: YOU DO NOT SEND YOUR MUSLIM BROTHERS OR SISTERS TO KUFFAR PRISONS!

Also, not one of you has grasped what I am saying. Never once have I condoned or endorsed any bombings. I just tell you you are 100% in the wrong if you think its ok to hand a muslim brother or sister over to the kuffar. If you think something wrong is going to happen THEN DEAL WITH HIM PERSONALLY! TELL PEOPLE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY WHO CAN HANDLE! DO NOT GIVE ANYONE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SENSATIONALIZE SOMETHING LIKE THIS! Things like this need to be dealt with in-house.

Also: so you admit to taking awliyah others than whom Allah has commanded?

What is wrong with a Muslim being punished by a non-Muslim? Bad Muslims get punished by the UK legal justice system and I have not heard any Muslim going against this. Why until now I have heard criminal matters related to Muslims should be dealt ''in-house.'' How is this going to be practical in a Non-Muslim country?

For example let’s say I met the boy mentioned in the article Andrew Ibrahim and he told me of his plans. I told him what he was doing was not right and he did not listen to me and was going to put his plans into action. What am I supposed to do then? How is the Muslim community going to deal with this, take into account we do not have the resources and expertise to deal with matters broad as this? How would have the Bristol Muslim community would have deal with this matter effectively while at the same time meeting the four aims of sentencing: retribution, deterrence, prevention and rehabilitation?

If you’re talking about matters relating to trust, I would only exercise that to a certain extent. If I did met a Muslim going to commit a crime, I would try my best to convince him what he was doing is wrong. If he does not listen, I would have to hand him over to the authorities for his own good depending on the nature of that crime.

 

[Al-Zaara]

of course i do! what i mean and should have elaborated on earlier is that if the muslim community can do somehting about these matters WITHIN the community itself, then that should happen. if they are able to sort of out the problem, i don't see why they need "out-siders" involved. i mean either way the problem would have been sorted, which is what we want.

You really don't get it. The community is not a country of its own, its not a legal system of its own, all-powerful or even as strong as it might seem to some. There is only so much a community can do, they'd anyways have to inform the police/psychologist, mainly professionals. And if they didn't, they'd be in serious problems afterwards, legal especially.

He was "humiliated" because he was intending to do a crime. That's what happens when you do or intend to do a crime and get caught. It isn't just something 'Boy, brother, you are about to do a sin, don't do it please' and then think you've done enough. Criminals and crimes don't work that way. You make it sound was if the crime was minor.

He converts and is about to do something which is frowned upon. There IS logical/psychological/reasoning for that, you'd just have to think outside your box.

 

[Al Ansari]

correction to my aformentioned post:

"The key is niyyah, yet if it is haraam in itself, a niyyah would NOT make it halal."

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Yes that makes much more sense. Humiliating might make them angry or might lead to undesirable consequences.

no they would be in prison unjust-fully before they had a chance to do anything, remember.

and lest you take my words literally and take them out of their intended contexts, sarcasm was being used :rollseyes

He was "humiliated" because he was intending to do a crime. That's what happens when you do or intend to do a crime and get caught. It isn't just something 'Boy, brother, you are about to do a sin, don't do it please' and then think you've done enough. Criminals and crimes don't work that way.

It is very much like that. if you can stop a Muslim doing something bad by speaking to him, then i dont see why anyone else needs to be involved...either way the crime is being stopped.

You make it sound was if the crime was minor.

seems like you took it the wrong way.

 

[GuestFellow]

no they would be in prison unjust-fully before they had a chance to do anything, remember.

and lest you take my words literally and take them out of their intended contexts, sarcasm was being used :rollseyes

no Muslim deserved to be humiliated! and why should we have to turn to humiliation if there are other valid options open, like advising one as i mentioned previously? if we are talking about stopping someone from committing sins (as you mentioned previously), then why does/should humiliation be used? as i said, you can stop one form committing sins without that option imo...

I should make myself clear. I agreed to you to a certain extent.

I believe humiliation is not the right answer when trying to make a criminal understand what they have done is wrong. If someone has committed an offence (in this case Andrew Ibrahim making explosives), you have to negotiate with them and make them understand what they were doing is dangerous and unacceptable. This is crucially important if the convicted defendant is going to be released back into the society once they have finished their sentence. If they are humiliated, it is most likely they will not have learnt their lesson. This is what I thought relating to matters of humiliating criminals.

Advising someone to stop committing a crime only works in certain circumstances. The problem is you will never know if that person will continue or discontinue their plans. Any criminal can lie. How could you tell whether someone is lying or not? You’re taking a huge risk. There will always be a risk of hundreds of individuals getting killed, because you will never know if that person actually going to take your advice. You’re taking a gamble here.

It is very much like that. if you can stop a Muslim doing something bad by speaking to him, then i dont see why anyone else needs to be involved...either way the crime is being stopped.

It is not as simple as that. If you have already committed an offence against the state, you will have to be punished for it. In this case Andrew Ibrahim made explosives which are against the law, despite whatever your intentions were. He was charged with three offences, one of the charges, he admitted being guilty of making explosives. Just like speeding, does not matter what your intentions were, you broke the law and you will be reasonably punished.

BTW I'm curious, if a non-Muslim was plotting terrorist activities, would you try to advice them what they were doing is wrong? How practical would that be in a real life situation where hundreds of lives would be at risk? Quite a heavy burden...

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Advising someone to stop committing a crime only works in certain circumstances. The problem is you will never know if that person will continue or discontinue their plans.
Any criminal can lie. How could you tell whether someone is lying or not? You’re taking a huge risk. There will always be a risk of hundreds of individuals getting killed, because you will never know if that person actually going to take your advice. You’re taking a gamble here.

convicting them and sending them to prison will also not guarantee that they wont repeat the same crime either, will it?

BTW I'm curious, if a non-Muslim was plotting terrorist activities, would you try to advice them what they were doing is wrong?

of course i would.

How practical would that be in a real life situation where hundreds of lives would be at risk?

why would it be a huge risk if it stops the person from committing the crime? where is the risk...as i said previously either way he will stop doing what he intended on doing...so im confused, where is this risk you speak of.

though i must say, i cant help but comment on your little efforts of patronization...quite sneaky indeed...

 

[Trumble]

why would it be a huge risk if it stops the person from committing the crime? where is the risk...as i said previously either way he will stop doing what he intended on doing...so im confused, where is this risk you speak of.

You are very casual with the use of the word 'if'. What 'if' instead of listening to what I assume is some sort of lecture he, suitably warned his intentions were discovered, just accelerated his plans, or harmed those trying to persuade him? The risk is that the attempt to talk sense into the wannabe terrorist will fail - a far more likely outcome - and the job of the professionals made far more difficult when the bumbling amateurs finally let them do their job.

The risk, put simply, is people being killed.

 

[convert]

Advising him to check his iman and telling others to stay away from him? Seriously? You have got to stop being so relaxed in the way you dish out almost kufr like verdicts on people. It's not something you do willy nilly. Some people I've seen are extremely quick to judge others and condemn them to hell, almost as if they're looking for a mistake to be made, just so they could pronounce how bad a muslim someone is. What nonsense. Don't be like that.

Read the following and sincerely ponder over it.

I did not call him kafir. Can a person with high iman even consider turning his brother over to kuffar "justice"?

 

[Ali_008]

Perhaps it depends on the intentions for reverting to Islam in the first place.

If he felt hatred towards his parents or his upbringing or his community or his culture or his country to start with, then Islam may have seemed like a way to rebel and fight against those things.
If he found just one hate-mongering radical scholar to support his own anger, then he could easily have felt justified to continue on his path of hatred and destruction ...

I actually find this a plausible reason. Most reverts either get influenced by a Muslim or find some faults in their previous faiths. His drug addiction and parental denunciation aren't bright characteristics.:heated:

 

[KAding]

I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.

Maybe so, but there are nevertheless many Islamic resistance movements that use exactly these methods, such as Hamas, the Taliban or the Chechen resistance. These movements also seemingly receive a lot of respect and support on forums like these.

Why would he not follow those examples?

 

[KAding]

If some people can't accept Muslims being prosecuted by a 'KUFFAR' justice system in a KUFFAR country, then they shouldn't be here. It is as simple as that. How can we possibly organize society and peacefully coexist if Muslims would be unwilling to accept the rule of law? It just isn't possible.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^because not everyone has the ability to migrate?

 

[KAding]

^because not everyone has the ability to migrate?

In that case, you better accept the rule of law in the country you reside in or look harder for ways to migrate. Surely you understand this just isn't a reasonable approach to residence and citizenship? I understand you look at this from a Muslim perspective. But do you think it is feasible to have large minorities which simply do not accept that members of their minority are judged by the justice system in that country?

It just isn't possible to coexist that way. It isn't possible for non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries and it isn't possible for Muslims in non-Muslim countries.

 

[GuestFellow]

convicting them and sending them to prison will also not guarantee that they wont repeat the same crime either, will it?

Depends on the nature of the crime that has been committed.

It is very unlikely the offender shall try to plan terrorist activities when they are released. The authorities equip these people with qualifications so that they can make a living for themselves and are usually under constant watch. The authorties are not naive to release an individual back into society without taking precautions. However this depends on the nature of the crime itself.

why would it be a huge risk if it stops the person from committing the crime?
where is the risk...as i said previously either way he will stop doing what he intended on doing...so im confused, where is this risk you speak of.

How do you know it will stop that person from committing that crime? The risk is people getting killed.

though i must say, i cant help but comment on your little efforts of patronization...quite sneaky indeed...

I don't think I'm patronizing.

I did not call him kafir. Can a person with high iman even consider turning his brother over to kuffar "justice"?

Well I believe that the Imam in the Bristol Muslim Community supported the police during this investigation. Some police officers are Muslims. They serve the British Justice system. If a Muslim police officer arrested another Muslim who had committed a crime, would you think that is acceptable?

Furthermore what is wrong with turning a Muslim over to the British Justice system, if they have done something wrong? What if they continue to commit that crime again? It really just escalates problems.

If Andrew Ibrahim had been not reported, he could have killed hundreds of innocent people.

 

[piXie]

I have read the article, and it is very disturbing that this is happening. But this extremism and terrorism is not because of Islam. Why is Islam being blamed?

This extremism and terrorism is a result of western foreign policy, that is the root cause of this young mans behaviour.

When young people see the unfairness that is happening in Iraq, Palestine and when they see America supporting oppressive apartheid states like Israel, this festers resentment.

When they see America’s war planes bombing villages in Pakistan and Afganistan. n they see their brothers and sisters being murdered in masses.

It is the western governments who are festering terrorism and it is because of them and their unfair policies that there is so much hate and anger.

It is western authorities own meddling and interfering in Muslim countries.

Then they actually have the nerve to blame Islam for suicide bombers?

Suicide bombing has nothing to do with Islam but everything to do with the unfair, tyrannical, terrorising, bullying, interfering, western policy.

Blame yourself western authority. You are the bully and the terrorist. It is not the Muslim armies who are in non Muslim lands, it is the non Muslim armies in the Muslim lands. Muslims today are being victimized and attacked everywhere. They are looked at suspiciously, they are being arrested and tortured in Guantanamo without charge or trial. How can the western govt. make good relations with us when they are treating us like this, and misrepresenting our religion in the media ? :hmm: [Just like what happened to the black people ]

How can the western governments pretend to make better relations with the Muslim communities when they are not getting to the root cause of the problem which is their unfair foreign policy ?

They are being very hypocritical. They are being big bullies and when their victim hits back they blame him for being extreme and a terrorist. And instead of sorting themselves out, they expect us to report him.

We will report them because our religion does not allow us to take it out on innocent civilians and bomb them for their governments faults. n neither do we want to do that because we are good citizens and have nothing against the general public. Two wrongs don't make a right, we believe that. But don't u see the unfairness ? Until western policy doesn't change, extremist attacks will carry on happening and we will carry on reporting. But this is not going to solve anything or bring about any peace.

We must get to the root cause of the problem: The unfair western policy needs to be changed.

 

[Clover]

Wow, not a very smart person to say the least. Hope he learns non-violence, and becomes a more...peaceful person.

 

[GuestFellow]

I agree with Sister piXie.

Majority of the problems that occurred in the East are all due to Western foreign policy and their meddling. Ron Paul is the only Politician
in America that speaks sense.

America and their cronies rant on about democracy and how the public should elect their government. However in Palestine when Hamas was elected, looks how quick the government were labelled as ''terrorist,'' by other countries.

America labels anyone as terrorists and all the sad viewers of Fox news and CNN news blindly absorbs all the propaganda.

The irony kills it.

If we are talking about the source of all the problems, foreign policy needs to be sorted and fast.

 

[KAding]

I agree with Sister piXie.

Majority of the problems that occurred in the East are all due to Western foreign policy and their meddling. Ron Paul is the only Politician
in America that speaks sense.

America and their cronies rant on about democracy and how the public should elect their government. However in Palestine when Hamas was elected, looks how quick the government were labelled as ''terrorist,'' by other countries.

America labels anyone as terrorists and all the sad viewers of Fox news and CNN news blindly absorbs all the propaganda.

The irony kills it.

If we are talking about the source of all the problems, foreign policy needs to be sorted and fast.

That is only part of the explanation though. Why does some guy from England care that much about what happens in the Middle East? And why does that care translate into plans for a suicide bombing?

 

[GuestFellow]

That is only part of the explanation though. Why does some guy from England care that much about what happens in the Middle East? And why does that care translate into plans for a suicide bombing?

Muslims care for one another. Nationality or your ethnic background does not stop one Muslim caring or helping another Muslim. Of course we help other Muslims according to Islamic principles and are not supposed to step outside the boundaries.

That is how I think Andrew Ibrahim felt, though he took the wrong course of action by making explosives. He wanted to get himself noticed and I conclude he was just looking for attention. He got interested in the wrong people, past Muslim suicide bombers and believed violence was the answer to the entire problem. Of course he was wrong.

This is why I stress for the American government and other Western countries to mind their own business. The American government used violence to sort out issues in the Middle East. Using violence does not work. Both sides loose.

If America improves on their foreign policy, listen for a change, and then people will not take drastic action. We could see decrease in terrorist activities.

 

[Suomipoika]

This is why I stress for the American government and other Western countries to mind their own business.

This is what USA was mostly doing, up until 9/11. It obviously didn't work.