An atheist tries to read the Qur'an

[czgibson]

Greetings to all,
You may have seen me on the forum debating with some of the very knowledgable people here. I am attempting to learn more about the Islamic religion, and obviously the most important place to start is the Qur'an. I have tried reading it several times, but have only managed a few suras. I would like respectfully to ask for your help with questions of interpretation and the like, as I come across them. I do not know Arabic, so I am relying on the Abdullah Yusuf-Ali English translation. I understand that this is not an entirely satisfactory substitute for the original Arabic, but I would like to read the English version and then decide if I wish to carry on and learn Arabic.

Here are some preliminary questions:

*Is the translation I am using recommended? I must say that the style is slightly off-putting, given that it seems to be an imitation of 16th-century Elizabethan English. I don't know how this is considered appropriate for the Qur'an. There must be good translations with different styles of English; can you recommend any?

*I notice that the Qur'an is often (always?) given an adjective on the front of the book (e.g. The Holy Qur'an, The Noble Qur'an). Is is considered at all disrespectful to refer to it as simply "The Qur'an"?

*In the text of the book I am using, certain words and phrases appear in brackets. Does this show that these are ideas from the translator, and not from the original Qur'an? If so, the remaining words sometimes make little sense without the bracketed word(s). For example, Sura 2, ayah 92:

There came to you Moses
With clear (Signs); yet
Ye worshipped the Calf
(Even) after that, and ye
Did behave wrongfully.

I'm interested in "Signs" here. Do the brackets signify a tentative translation of a specific Arabic word? Or is the meaning "signs" implied in another Arabic word from somewhere else in the ayah? Or am I wrong about the significance of the brackets?

I look forward to reading your responses, and to learning more about the Qur'an.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

 

[Henry]

Hey there, Czgibson. Although I don't know some of the exact answers, I'll do my best.

First question: It has that style of writing in my Qu'ran. I think that is just what it loosely translates to when it comes to English. Of course, the only pure form of the Qur'an is in Arabic (and it rhymes also. The Qur'an is almost as if it is one big poem). I would think your translated version is fine. If I remember correctly, I think I heard some good words about Yusaf-Ali.

Second Question: My Qur'an is called The Noble Qur'an. I am sure it is just respectful to put an adjective before it

Third Question: I think it is that because some words don't translate to English.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Peace Callum,

*Is the translation I am using recommended? I must say that the style is slightly off-putting, given that it seems to be an imitation of 16th-century Elizabethan English. I don't know how this is considered appropriate for the Qur'an. There must be good translations with different styles of English; can you recommend any?

The translation you are using is okay, but there are errors in the commentary. I think the best possible translation for you is that by Muhammad Farooq-i-Azzam Malik.
http://islamicbookstore.com/b6848.html
http://islamicbookstore.com/b5897.html
http://islamicbookstore.com/b8488.html

The english is very smooth and clear. We have a thread about the different translations here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=2194

I would encourage you to read this article about translations as well:
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=3571

*I notice that the Qur'an is often (always?) given an adjective on the front of the book (e.g. The Holy Qur'an, The Noble Qur'an). Is is considered at all disrespectful to refer to it as simply "The Qur'an"?

No, its not considered disrespectful.

*In the text of the book I am using, certain words and phrases appear in brackets. Does this show that these are ideas from the translator, and not from the original Qur'an? If so, the remaining words sometimes make little sense without the bracketed word(s). For example, Sura 2, ayah 92:

There came to you Moses
With clear (Signs); yet
Ye worshipped the Calf
(Even) after that, and ye
Did behave wrongfully.

I'm interested in "Signs" here. Do the brackets signify a tentative translation of a specific Arabic word? Or is the meaning "signs" implied in another Arabic word from somewhere else in the ayah? Or am I wrong about the significance of the brackets?

You are right that the brackets are the interpretation of the translator. However, in many cases they enclose a meaning that is implied in the original arabic. The word used in arabic is bayyinat meaning clear proofs. Here are several other translations of the verse:

Pickthall Translation: And Moses came unto you with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), yet,while he was away, ye chose the calf (for worship) and ye were wrongdoers.

Yusuf Ali Translation: There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the Calf (even) after that and ye did behave wrongfully.

Daryabadi Translation: And assuredly Musa came unto you with evidence, then ye betook the calf after him, and ye were wrong-doers.

Muhsin Khan Translation: And indeed Musa (Moses) came to you with clear proofs, yet you worshipped the calf after he left, and you were Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

Muhammad Asad Translation: And indeed, there came unto you Moses with all evidence of the truth - and thereupon. in his absence, you took to worshipping the (golden] calf, and acted wickedly.


Hopefully, that clarifies what exactly is from the verse and what is interpretation.

Peace.

 

[Henry]

Assalamu Alaikam
And in my version, clear proofs/evidences is replaced by ayats Anyways, thanks for informing him.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Assalamu Alaikam
And in my version, clear proofs/evidences is replaced by ayats Anyways, thanks for informing him.

Careful! There are no 'versions' of the Qur'an. Which translation do you use?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,
I'm just going through sura 2 now. So far I've appreciated some of the poetic ideas, if I can call them that - what I mean is that the text seems very like a poem. I understand that the Qur'an rhymes in Arabic. I'll need to check out an audio recitation to try and feel the poetic movement of the lines.

The Opening is direct and to the point, and entirely noble in concept.

In the second sura I particularly like the famous "challenge" to produce a similar sura in ayahs 23-24 - it shows great confidence.

One ayah that is puzzling me is 29:

It is He Who hath created for you
All things that are on earth;
Then He turned to the heaven
And made them into seven firmaments.
And of all things
He hath perfect knowledge.

What are the seven firmaments?

Oh yes, Ansar, I looked at the link you kindly provided and that translation you recommend seems a good choice. Thank you.

Thanks also to everyone who has responded. I clearly need all the help I can get!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Callum,
The word translated as firmaments is also translated as 'heavens'. God often describes in the Qur'an His creation of the heavens and the earth. I provided an explanation of that verse in the following article:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Which_was_Created_first,_the_Heavens_or_the_Earth/

For the recitation, here is a recitation of the second chapter:
Suratul Baqarah recited by Muhammad Ayoub
Suratul Baqarah recited by Mishary Rashid Al-Efasi
Suratul Baqarah recited by Abdullah Matrood

Pick whichever one you like most. For a spiritually uplifting experience, try reading the english translation as he recites the arabic.

Peace!

 

[- Qatada -]

hey czgibson. u can download this software and its got the full Qur'an and the english translation. Its got audio aswell but you gota download it.

1. Arabic Text
2.3 types of translations in english. (word to word)
3.Audio by Sheikh Sa'ad Al-Ghamdi (hes a brilliant recitor mash Allah)
4. Its all free.

you can download it from:
http://www.shaplus.com/free-quran-s...e/QuranReciter/quranreciter-free-download.htm

or u can download Sheikh Sa'ad Al-Ghamdi's recitations alone from:

http://quran.mangga.com/quran_mp3_ghamdi.html

Peace.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings to all,
Thank you for the recitation links and downloads. One question to help me appreciate the poetic effect: Do the rhymes in the Qur'an occur at the end of each line of Arabic text, or do they vary? This will help me keep my place.

Thank you, Ansar for your explanation of the ayah, however I must admit I'm still puzzled. I'm unsure where the idea of seven heavens comes from. You mention the three stages of the formation of the atmosphere. That is three, not seven. What am I missing?

"Firmament" was a common expression in Shakespeare's time, and I suspect that is why Yusuf-Ali chose to translate the word this way. He mentions Shakespeare several times in his commentary in an admiring way, and I think the style of his translation could be an attempt to imitate his writing, or perhaps to project the perceived "grandness" of Shakespeare's language onto the Qur'an. The "firmament" as understood in those times is a concept that has no scientific basis, obviously. Would you say "firmament" is a satisfactory translation of this word? Is the idea of "firmament" incorporated in the word "as-samaa" as well as "heaven" or "atmosphere"?

Here is what you say about a verse I have not yet reached:

While verses 79:27-30 do not mention a seven-layered atmosphere at all! And they do not mention the creation of the earth! The verses only say that after that the earth was spread out. Obviously this refers to the earth's crust, which formed approximately 3.5 billion years ago, after the primitive atmosphere was already in place. Alternatively, it refers to the actual spreading of the continenets, in what is known as continenetal drift, which also occured after the formatiion of the early atmosphere.

Here is the basic structure of what you say here:

Obviously this refers to + scientific fact . . .
Alternatively, it refers to + different scientific fact.

If one interpretation is obviously correct, then why do you need the other one? You might have said "Obviously, this could refer to...", and then proceed with "Alternatively...", then the difficulty wouldn't arise. Perhaps it refers to both, as Allah supposedly has perfect knowledge of all things, but if a scientist were to speak in such a way that it was unclear whether he was talking about the formation of the Earth's crust or continental drift, surely he would not be a very good scientist? I'm not saying Allah should be like a scientist, but many claims are made for the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an. One very important feature of science is that it should be as clear as possible.

In this regard, it is amazing to note the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an, which critics fail to comprehend and classify as a 'contradiction'.

I am clearly one of those critics with regard to this point - I cannot perceive this scientific accuracy you speak of, until of course you enlighten me.

 

[Henry]

Assalam Alaikam,
Woops! I ment translation! Sorry. The translation is by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan :0

 

[Khattab]

Peace Callum,

May Allah (SWT) guide you to the straight path and open up your heart to the last and final revelation, as he alone is the guide, ameen.

Can I recommend an excellent recitation of Surah Dukhan (44) to listen too it is only around 6mins long but one of my favourite, of Shiekh Ibrahim Jibreen.

Right click and 'save target as' or just click on it.

Click Here

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Do the rhymes in the Qur'an occur at the end of each line of Arabic text, or do they vary? This will help me keep my place.

They do vary. If you have transliteration it may help. You can use this:
Chapter index
Suratul Baqarah

Thank you, Ansar for your explanation of the ayah, however I must admit I'm still puzzled. I'm unsure where the idea of seven heavens comes from. You mention the three stages of the formation of the atmosphere. That is three, not seven. What am I missing?

I was only pointing out the three stages in the atmosphere's formation to answer the question of which was created first - earth or heavens. Verse 2:29 states that He created the earth before developing the heavens into seven layers. Meanwhile the verse 79:27-30 states that He created the heaven before the earth. So my point is that the timeline would indicate:

creation of heaven (atmosphere) -> spreading of the earth's crust/continents -> development of the atmosphere into seven distinct layers

So the three stages of atmospheric development is brought into the article for the purpose of explaining the alleged contradiction between which was created first, not for explaining the seven layers of the atmosphere.

I'm glad you asked about this because I may need to make the article more clear.

"Firmament" was a common expression in Shakespeare's time, and I suspect that is why Yusuf-Ali chose to translate the word this way. He mentions Shakespeare several times in his commentary in an admiring way, and I think the style of his translation could be an attempt to imitate his writing, or perhaps to project the perceived "grandness" of Shakespeare's language onto the Qur'an. The "firmament" as understood in those times is a concept that has no scientific basis, obviously. Would you say "firmament" is a satisfactory translation of this word? Is the idea of "firmament" incorporated in the word "as-samaa" as well as "heaven" or "atmosphere"?

I think the 'firmament' probably confuses the issue more so its best for translations to use heavens.

Here is what you say about a verse I have not yet reached:

Here is the basic structure of what you say here:

Obviously this refers to + scientific fact . . .
Alternatively, it refers to + different scientific fact.

If one interpretation is obviously correct, then why do you need the other one? You might have said "Obviously, this could refer to...", and then proceed with "Alternatively...", then the difficulty wouldn't arise.

You're right. I made a mistake there, I'll have to fix that, God willingly.

Perhaps it refers to both, as Allah supposedly has perfect knowledge of all things, but if a scientist were to speak in such a way that it was unclear whether he was talking about the formation of the Earth's crust or continental drift, surely he would not be a very good scientist? I'm not saying Allah should be like a scientist, but many claims are made for the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an. One very important feature of science is that it should be as clear as possible.

The point about science in the Qur'an was never that the Qur'an was a scientific textbook and therefore supposed to explain scientific concepts in clear terms. The Qur'an is a book of guidance from the Creator. The fact is that the Creator's words should not contradict the scientific laws He creator, and they should be able to be interpreted in a scientific light. I used science to help explain these two verses which I would have a difficult time of explaining without our scientific knowledge.

I hope that clarifies.

 

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,
Thanks very much for the links you provided; it's very helpful indeed to have a transliteration. I've enjoyed listening to the various recitations suggested. Khattab's suggestion was pleasant listening - the reciter has a nice singing tone of voice. Sura 44 was interesting too; it seems to be directed at people like me, so a suitable choice!

My favourite recitation of sura 2 was the second, by Mishary Rashid Al-Efasi. The words seem to roll around in his mouth, producing a poetic effect I've never heard before. I particularly like the way verse 3 sounds. Incidentally, does "yu/minoona" mean "believe"? I notice it appears in the text quite often. You'll notice I'm mostly responding to the sounds of the recitation here, because it's difficult for me to associate each sound with a meaning at the moment. I'm enjoying trying anyway.

So the three stages of atmospheric development is brought into the article for the purpose of explaining the alleged contradiction between which was created first, not for explaining the seven layers of the atmosphere.

Oh, I see you were explaining a specific question, rather than a general explanation.

I think the 'firmament' probably confuses the issue more so its best for translations to use heavens.

It is definitely confusing, yes.

The point about science in the Qur'an was never that the Qur'an was a scientific textbook and therefore supposed to explain scientific concepts in clear terms. The Qur'an is a book of guidance from the Creator. The fact is that the Creator's words should not contradict the scientific laws He creator, and they should be able to be interpreted in a scientific light. I used science to help explain these two verses which I would have a difficult time of explaining without our scientific knowledge.

As you would expect from someone sceptical of religious claims, I have great difficulty with the notion that the Qur'an somehow contains advanced scientific knowledge, which in many cases was not discovered by scientists until centuries later. I believe that if you make a text poetic and abstract enough, it will generate meaning for a very long time to come.

Have you ever heard of the Irish writer James Joyce? He wrote two books* which, I think, can be endlessly reinterpreted. There are so many suggestions of meaning in them that they seem to be inexhaustible. Who is to say whether or not, in the future, those books will be seen as having predicted astonishing discoveries or events? Some Christians say they have found a code in the Bible that apparently reveals such wonders. Some psychologists think they see elements of Freudian theory in Shakespeare. There are many examples like this. The point is, it's the facts that matter, and the scientists who discovered them. That some discoveries or theories happen to coincide with certain poetic expressions in the Qur'an, the Bible or Shakespeare does not seem relevant to anything - it doesn't necessarily indicate any foreknowledge on the part of the author.

Now, I know the Qur'an is not entirely abstract - indeed, many parts of the book (that I've read so far) are written in a clear and direct style - I'm simply pointing out the capacity of abstract writing to generate meaning. And there are elements of the Qur'an which I believe are deliberately confusing, so as to arouse an artificial feeling of awe or wonder - I'm thinking of the abbreviated letters that begin certain suras. I don't want you to think I'm disrespecting the Qur'an here, I'm just trying to air my doubts.

You say you would have a hard time explaining those two verses without scientific knowledge. Were the verses incomprehensible before the scientific discoveries you mention were made? Or is everyone free to make any interpretation, using current scientific knowledge if it fits?

I'm sorry to sound negative about certain aspects of the book that is the centre of faith for so many, but I'm sure these points deserve to be addressed. I'm finding these issues confusing.

Regards, and thank you for everybody's help so far.



* Ulysses and Finnegans Wake are the titles.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

My favourite recitation of sura 2 was the second, by Mishary Rashid Al-Efasi. The words seem to roll around in his mouth, producing a poetic effect I've never heard before. I particularly like the way verse 3 sounds. Incidentally, does "yu/minoona" mean "believe"?

Yes, you're right.
Its based on the word imaan (also spelled eemaan) which means faith/belief
mu'min -> one who has faith, a believer
mu'minoon -> plural of mu'min, believers or those with faith
yu'minoon -> verb & plural

About the scientific miracles, I'm not going to argue with you about vague or clear references. I think the scientific miracles deserve their own thread, and indeed they've been discussed in many threads.
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1000
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=3924

You're welcome to air your doubts and we can discuss them. Although there's not much I can say in response to your idea that the letters are placed there to make an artificial sense of awe, since that's a personal feeling not a claim that can be analyzed with evidence. Moreover, although I use science to explain the Qur'an and I find it very interesting to do so, I don't believe that the Qur'an must be examined for scientific miracles. Which brings me to your next point:

You say you would have a hard time explaining those two verses without scientific knowledge. Were the verses incomprehensible before the scientific discoveries you mention were made? Or is everyone free to make any interpretation, using current scientific knowledge if it fits?

In the commentary of the Qur'an known as Al-Bahr Al-Muheet, written by Shaykh Abu Hayyan Muhammad ibn Yusuf (d. 1344CE) he presents the following explanation:

Verse 29 shows that the earth was created before the skies, as indicated by the word thumma (then). Another verse of the Holy Qur'an seems to be saying the opposite: "He spread out the earth after this." (79:30) But it doesn't necessarily mean that the earth was created after the skies. What it actually implies is that although the earth had already been created when the skies came into existence, yet a final shape was given to it after the creation of the skies. (Related by Mufti Muhammad Shafi in Ma'ariful Qur'an)​

So just like I did, the classical commentators concluded that the verses could only be understood if verse 79:30 was referring to the further development of the earth after its existence, while verse 2:29 was referring to the further development of the skies after their existence. However, the classical commentators did not have scientific evidence to support their interpretation that the creation pattern was:
creation of the primitive atmosphere -> spreading of the earth's crust and its the earth's development -> development of atmosphere into seven layers

There was a large chance that the Qur'an could have made a complete scientific error here, but it did not, which to me at least is a sign from God.

Regards

 

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,
Everything you say in the above post seems eminently reasonable to me, with the exception, of course, of the last point about being a "sign from God".

I shall definitely have a look at the threads you referred me to.

Regards

 

[Uthman]

May I ask how it went then, czgibson? Did you give up yet another time? mg:

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

May I ask how it went then, czgibson? Did you give up yet another time? mg:

I gave up on reading it all the way through. I've probably read most of it by now in different sittings, but the four translations I've tried just don't hold my interest for long enough to get all the way through in one go.

I wrote a PM to Muhammad with my thoughts about it which I will send you as well if you like.

Peace

 

[MMohammed]

Oh really?
Its too strange.Well anyone can read Quran after the knowledge of Arabic

 

[bamboozled]

Welcome,

Here are somethings that might help:

1. Arabic recitation of the Quran. They are My PERSONAL FAVS:

Surah Qiyamah (Judgement Day) I love this recitiaton, its by a child and his innocence and the poetic tone are amazing Mashallah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwS4owQFEqc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI54UauUtSk

(thats with the kid in it (above link), reading a part of Yaseen , just to prove he is a kid lol)

Surah Rahman
If the kid wasnt your taste, I guarantee you this guy (He is the man that leads at Mecca a lot of the time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD6Ov8JHTfk

2. Helpful Quran Site

www.Quran.com - has translations by Yusuf Ali (Free) and english and everything really

3. Dr Zakir Naik

That Man that changed my Life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM
Does God EXIST, proving to an atheist he does.

Watch out for him, he is all over youtube.com with videos on everything. He has his own Channel Called PeaceTV channel 820 on Sky or you can watch it online for free

http://peacetv.tv/watchpeacetv.php

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Greetings,


I gave up on reading it all the way through. I've probably read most of it by now in different sittings, but the four translations I've tried just don't hold my interest for long enough to get all the way through in one go.

I wrote a PM to Muhammad with my thoughts about it which I will send you as well if you like.

Peace

I have a solution for you. Learn Arabic Obviously translations don't do justice to its actual meaning. Maybe you would get more out reading the Qur'aan if you learned Arabic