Things in Islam I am curious about...
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Re: Equality or not?
The idea of equality seems important as it only seems, just, fair to treat people alike in law in that it is the crime not the person that brings us to court for example. So does Islamic law preserve inequalities or no whereas Modern law tries to nullify them? For example, we have laws about equal opportunity and they exist because often we cannot remove the inequality (eg Disablement) but we can sort of 'level the playing field'.
I am generally for equality but I also understand that it can go too far and start impinging on conscience and basic freedoms. For example, equality of treatment for homosexuals is perfectly understandable, homosexuals exist everywhere but if I might in all conscience feel that I could not employ a practising one in my local church because it conflicts with certain strongly held beliefs so a freedom given to one person might mean freedom is taken away from another.
Interestingly, Bernard Lewis states “Islam does not endorse systems of social differentiation; it explicitly and resolutely rejects them.... [Islam] is overwhelmingly against privilege by decent, by birth, by status, by wealth, or even race, and insists that rank and honour are determined only by piety and merit in Islam.”
This excellent egalitarian tradition of Islam (though more often than not ignored within the realities of conquest) is however NOT complete. From the beginning Islam recognised certain social inequalities and sanctioned them in holy writ. But three areas in Islam where I find what seems like intolerance and discrimination or perhaps a better way to put it is inequalities remain in law if not always in practice. They are master and slave, man and women and believer and unbeliever. I preface my remarks by saying we are all human beings and in that sense God’s children and ultimately we each and individually have to answer to Him.
I know you have this issue about rules in Islam being forever but it seems like a dead end because you cannot legislate about everything or the future. So is there a modern view, a reformed view on these three inequalities being grounded in law?
The idea of equality seems important as it only seems, just, fair to treat people alike in law in that it is the crime not the person that brings us to court for example. So does Islamic law preserve inequalities or no whereas Modern law tries to nullify them? For example, we have laws about equal opportunity and they exist because often we cannot remove the inequality (eg Disablement) but we can sort of 'level the playing field'.
I am generally for equality but I also understand that it can go too far and start impinging on conscience and basic freedoms. For example, equality of treatment for homosexuals is perfectly understandable, homosexuals exist everywhere but if I might in all conscience feel that I could not employ a practising one in my local church because it conflicts with certain strongly held beliefs so a freedom given to one person might mean freedom is taken away from another.
Interestingly, Bernard Lewis states “Islam does not endorse systems of social differentiation; it explicitly and resolutely rejects them.... [Islam] is overwhelmingly against privilege by decent, by birth, by status, by wealth, or even race, and insists that rank and honour are determined only by piety and merit in Islam.”
This excellent egalitarian tradition of Islam (though more often than not ignored within the realities of conquest) is however NOT complete. From the beginning Islam recognised certain social inequalities and sanctioned them in holy writ. But three areas in Islam where I find what seems like intolerance and discrimination or perhaps a better way to put it is inequalities remain in law if not always in practice. They are master and slave, man and women and believer and unbeliever. I preface my remarks by saying we are all human beings and in that sense God’s children and ultimately we each and individually have to answer to Him.
Master and Slave - and all that goes with it such as concubinage forms a large parts of Sharia but no one I hope regards that as acceptable no matter what reasons are put forward for such discrimination or treatments. This part of Islam is now to be set aside forever and whilst 1,000 years ago it might have been acceptable, good it is not now and never will be again; whilst it was good to look after your slaves well it is better not to have any.
Man and Woman – in Islam woman have recognizable rights and had these before most other cultures. However, their position is not one of equality. I know plenty of women who can think better than me, run faster than me and so on so in general there is always someone who can be better at something than you. I cannot think of anything much that a man can do that a woman cannot. I insist therefore on equality in law. I spend a lot of time in the Gulf and what one sees is that woman of a generation ago are often illiterate but modern women are not and become doctors, teachers, bankers, engineers and so on. So things are changing and Sharia rulings are set aside
Believers and Unbelievers – traditionally unbelievers have been second class citizens and no doubt you know about the Dhimmy status which was only stamped out in the mid to late 18th century by Colonial rulers and by enlightened Muslim rulers.
Man and Woman – in Islam woman have recognizable rights and had these before most other cultures. However, their position is not one of equality. I know plenty of women who can think better than me, run faster than me and so on so in general there is always someone who can be better at something than you. I cannot think of anything much that a man can do that a woman cannot. I insist therefore on equality in law. I spend a lot of time in the Gulf and what one sees is that woman of a generation ago are often illiterate but modern women are not and become doctors, teachers, bankers, engineers and so on. So things are changing and Sharia rulings are set aside
Believers and Unbelievers – traditionally unbelievers have been second class citizens and no doubt you know about the Dhimmy status which was only stamped out in the mid to late 18th century by Colonial rulers and by enlightened Muslim rulers.
I know you have this issue about rules in Islam being forever but it seems like a dead end because you cannot legislate about everything or the future. So is there a modern view, a reformed view on these three inequalities being grounded in law?
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aamirsaab
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Re: Equality or not?
You've missed the point about master and slavery; the way Islam dealt with this matter enabled it to be fully abolished.
Here, you are completely ill-informed about dhimmis and this ''second class citizen'' crap.
Dhimmi = protected one. It's also an umbrella term for all non-muslims who live in a sharia state. They enjoy ALL freedoms MUSLIMS have in that state. In fact, they are priority cases in sharia compliant states which would actually put them before 1st class citizens.
You've missed the point about master and slavery; the way Islam dealt with this matter enabled it to be fully abolished.
I don't see any real differences levied at men and females in sharia. Could you please be specific on this; what differences are you talking about?
Dhimmi = protected one. It's also an umbrella term for all non-muslims who live in a sharia state. They enjoy ALL freedoms MUSLIMS have in that state. In fact, they are priority cases in sharia compliant states which would actually put them before 1st class citizens.
Re: Equality or not?
A detailed response to Hugo aka silver LJ (its your IP
) arguments are to be found on IslamicLife forums by brothers al boriqee and abdul fatah, no point of debating further.
A detailed response to Hugo aka silver LJ (its your IP
) arguments are to be found on IslamicLife forums by brothers al boriqee and abdul fatah, no point of debating further.Re: Equality or not?
Thank for the post but let me say that my original note was about what was and still is in Sharia not necessarily practised. But, if I may say so it is you who seem to be remarkably uninformed. I will not labour the points but:
1. Men & Women - if you see no real differences 'levied' explain why a man may have 4 wives but a woman can only have one husband? Or, why the testimony of a woman is not equal to that of a man?
2. Dhimmi - if as you seem to suggest they are equal to a Muslim then why have a protected status at all, why did they have to play a special tax?
3. Slavery - if Islam was in the vanguard of getting rid of slavery as you say then why was it that many Muslim countries were the last to abolish it; Saudi Arabia for instance only in the 1960s some 200 or so years after Europe?
Thank for the post but let me say that my original note was about what was and still is in Sharia not necessarily practised. But, if I may say so it is you who seem to be remarkably uninformed. I will not labour the points but:
1. Men & Women - if you see no real differences 'levied' explain why a man may have 4 wives but a woman can only have one husband? Or, why the testimony of a woman is not equal to that of a man?
2. Dhimmi - if as you seem to suggest they are equal to a Muslim then why have a protected status at all, why did they have to play a special tax?
3. Slavery - if Islam was in the vanguard of getting rid of slavery as you say then why was it that many Muslim countries were the last to abolish it; Saudi Arabia for instance only in the 1960s some 200 or so years after Europe?
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On the subject of polygamy
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/2671-polygamy-other-religions.html#post39615
on the rights on non-muslims
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/28067-rights-non-muslims-under-islam.html
on the topic of slavery:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/32353-slavery.html#post1199006
on testimony and rights of women:
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/26028-islam-sexist-2.html#post431263
Use the search feature, you'll find that you are as equally misinformed as your predecessors, and that the answers are already on board as to not rehash the same over and over for mere loss of interest in reading and proper research..
all the best!
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/2671-polygamy-other-religions.html#post39615
on the rights on non-muslims
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/28067-rights-non-muslims-under-islam.html
on the topic of slavery:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/32353-slavery.html#post1199006
on testimony and rights of women:
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/26028-islam-sexist-2.html#post431263
Use the search feature, you'll find that you are as equally misinformed as your predecessors, and that the answers are already on board as to not rehash the same over and over for mere loss of interest in reading and proper research..
all the best!
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and as a short addendum to above:
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/18034-why-two-women-witnesses.html#post132103Question:
Why are two witnesses who are women, equivalent to only one witness who is a man ?
Answer by Dr. Zakir Naik:
It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions. It says:
"Oh! ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligation in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing and get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her." [Al-Qur’an 2:282]
This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.
For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors.
Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Tazil’ which means ‘confused’ or ‘to err’. Many have wrongly translated this word as ‘to forget’. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.
However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder, two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases, one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. There are about five verses in the Qur’an which speak about witnesses without specifying man or woman.
While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur’an says:
"Oh you who believe! When death approaches any of you, (take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests."[Al-Qur’an 5:106]
Two just persons of your own (brotherhood) or other from outside if you are journeying through the earth and the chance of death befalls you."[Al-Qur’an 65:2]
Two persons endued with justice in case of talaq."Four witnesses are required in case of charge against chaste women, [Al-Qur’an 24:4]
There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness:
"And those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own their solitary evidence can be received."[Al-Qur’an 24:6]
Hazrat Ayesha (RA) hadith narrated of one witness
Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the sighting of the crescent of the moon. Imagine one woman witness is sufficient for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of men and women agree and accept her witness! Some jurists say that one witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end of Ramadaan. It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women.
Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the burial bath i.e. ‘ghusl’ to a woman, the witness has to be a woman.
The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.
I followed the first link that took me to another discussion thread with three further links so I assume you never went beyond the first link so did not examine what was said - why else not quote it directly. Every scholar know you should always reference to the primary source.
Unless I read the incorrectly Dr Naik in general agrees that woman are not equal to men in term of witnessing. He offers some qualicatioins and that is fine. His argument though by analogy is weak when he refers to two surgeons and one supposes he implies some sort of special expertise. Now Islam might 'suppose' a man to be the breadwinner but that does not imply expertise does it and one might often find the supposition to be false?
Anyway, I am not asking about practice I was asking why is it enshrined in law it seems forever.
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I thought you were unhappy, with a large cut and paste? Is it that you are unable to follow the links and read contents or just unable to?
in lieu of taking you to three separate threads with expansive views on the matter, I took you to one that encompasses all three .. which method do you think is better?
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you've read this?
the short end of it, is two witnesses in cases where she is not a professional in her field and in financial transaction.
There are also cases where more than two witnesses are required and same of men.
Now, let me pose one question. How many trials in the U.S/west run by the witness of just one person? furthermore let me carry this to the next level .. what is the christian view of women witnesses?
for the longest time, christian scholars weren't sure whether women had souls at all or were akin to animals..
have you read the same bible that the rest of us have?
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing
1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."
doesn't seem to me like women have any rights in Christianity, let alone in a court of law!
all the best
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czgibson
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Greetings,
That's not how Christianity works though, is it? There are loads of things in the Bible that Christians don't obey.
I know, it seems strange to me too, but that's just the way it is.
Peace
That's not how Christianity works though, is it? There are loads of things in the Bible that Christians don't obey.
I know, it seems strange to me too, but that's just the way it is.
Peace
You are right. There are many commandments (even some that Paul made) that Christians do not obey. So while we can point to their book and ask them to examine what they have before jumping on the Islam-hate bandwagon, most of the time it's a fruitless approach because to a Christian the Bible is more inspiration than commandment.
This why I've mostly stopped referring to the Bible in my da'wah in terms of commandments; because to the average Christian it means nothing.
Why is it that you say that Christians jump on the 'hate bandwagon' - can you verify this and indeed if you look through this board there are many instances sadly of hate the other way. In my Church each Ramadan we use a calendar so we can pray for our Muslim friends and neighbours.
May I ask do YOU obey all the commandments in the Qu'ran; there are about 300 of them? Just to be a bit silly - do you use two bits of thread to decide when the day ends and begins in Ramadan yet it is a command is it not?
The Bible tells us about sacrificing animals but we don't do that now, it tells us how to deal with a leper but we don't do that now, etc. Christianity is not about keeping laws its about living in the grace of God and loving Him with all our heart and soul and mind and our neighbour as ourself - do you not think that is a good thing a very good thing and it sits above any other law because anyone who does these two things will fulfil all the others as well?
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I don't know?.. seems that amongst other problems one in four western women is in an abusive relationship and it has even gotten your lovely English Rose Keira Knightley moved enough to make a movie about it of course though such abusiveness is most assuredly done on the hands of western christian men one can't call them as such, because misogyny is only a Muslim issue, also polygamy for we can't call it polygmy when a man such as michael Gambon has a second love child with his mistress with the permission of his wife It is just freedom without undue strain ( I won't touch upon my reservations with the current legal system (in the U.S) since I am not a lawyer but a spectator I marvel at how it works) nonetheless, and without furthere ado, if you divorce yourself from your religion, can you still be called a christian?
all the best
Just look at any thread started by Follower attacking the shari'a laws and commandments Islam sets forth. When I say "Islam-hate bandwagon" I'm referring to the tradition of Christians pointing out what they see as barbaric laws in Islam, such as the cutting off of the thief's hand. What Christians fail to do is look in their own book to see very similar (and far more severe) laws in the Old Testament.
In terms of following the Qur'an, I would say that I try my best, but ultimately I fall short in fulfilling all of them. But there is a difference here. When I don't fulfill a commandment, I know it's a sin. When a Christian thinks that some verse revealed to the Jews 3000 years ago no longer applies, it's not a sin to them. Big difference in perception.
As for the thread bit on Ramadan, that is an incorrect interpretation of the verse. A companion actually was taking the thread and using it to determine the breaking of the fast, which is the literal, surface-level interpretation. Muhammad (peace be upon him) corrected his companion, saying the white and dark symbolized the dawn and the night, respectively, and the start of the fast occurs at first light.
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czgibson
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Greetings,
Unfortunately, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with anything.
Well, I suppose it's really up to Christians to decide that.
The simple fact is that Christians and Muslims hold very different attitudes to their scriptures, especially when it comes to how literally they should be understood.
Peace
Unfortunately, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with anything.
Well, I suppose it's really up to Christians to decide that.
The simple fact is that Christians and Muslims hold very different attitudes to their scriptures, especially when it comes to how literally they should be understood.
Peace
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in reply to your
Subjugation of women in western society (and as in concert with biblical teachings is alive and well)
Religion is about belief. If you don't believe in the things revealed in your book or that they hold any value then what is the point of labeling yourself 'Christian' 'Muslim' or whatever else?
all the best
czgibson
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Greetings,
Western doesn't equal Christian, as I'm sure you haven't forgotten.
I think that's a good question, but, like I say, at some point we just need to accept that different religions do things in different ways. If you judge one of them by the standards of another then you'll clearly have undue bias.
Another point worth mentioning is that some Christians view certain Biblical texts as having been made with a view to being readily understood by the people of their time. In other words: god inspires primitive humans with ideas that they will understand, and which may not stand up in the light of modern knowledge. Therefore, those bits should be taken metaphorically. A cop-out? You decide.
There are, of course, also some Christians who think the whole of the Bible is the literally true, inerrant Word of God; I suppose this is closer to the way Muslims think about the Qur'an.
Out of interest, if a Muslim were to take the 'metaphorical' interpretation of parts of the Qur'an, what would be their status in Islam? Would that be kufr?
Peace
Western doesn't equal Christian, as I'm sure you haven't forgotten.
I think that's a good question, but, like I say, at some point we just need to accept that different religions do things in different ways. If you judge one of them by the standards of another then you'll clearly have undue bias.
Another point worth mentioning is that some Christians view certain Biblical texts as having been made with a view to being readily understood by the people of their time. In other words: god inspires primitive humans with ideas that they will understand, and which may not stand up in the light of modern knowledge. Therefore, those bits should be taken metaphorically. A cop-out? You decide.
There are, of course, also some Christians who think the whole of the Bible is the literally true, inerrant Word of God; I suppose this is closer to the way Muslims think about the Qur'an.
Out of interest, if a Muslim were to take the 'metaphorical' interpretation of parts of the Qur'an, what would be their status in Islam? Would that be kufr?
Peace
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what is the 'common religion in the west. Did it say Atheist on your birth certificate, Do I assume correctly when I suppose that even tough you chose Atheism as a way of life and perhaps came from a non-practicing family.. that your background and/or ancestry is christian?
I am not judging at all, my comments have nothing to do with judgment if you have followed the thread in its serial form.. It is a comparative thing on the comparative section of this board. To offer the politic reply, I don't see how you can interject here and say I am judging when I am merely being quizzical.
Is that really what Christians think? Given how many of them on board are after our very souls.. (Alapiana, fromgenesis, follower, phil. etc) to name a few, I think they rather think it the unadulterated word of God... I have a difficult time reconciling some of the written messages of their bible with what they actually preach!
I have only encountered this type of Christians, but given that I have also attended catholic school way back when, I haven't had a chance to meet the ones of whom you speak, and in such a case anyway I don't suspect they'd hang on an Islamic forum and discuss religion.
That which is metophorical in the Quran is stated as such.. Have you not read it?
3:7 He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ- as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ6 which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.
The Quran is a very intelligent book (amongst its transcendent attributes) That I find it difficult to make it an object of comparison with the bible, for more reasons than I care to go into for the purposes of this topic!
all the best