A 35,000-year-old flute refutes the idea of historic evolution!

[جوري]

I suppose I'm obliged to ask what the good is in all that detail when it provides no useful information. I'd take relevancy and accuracy any day, detailed or not.

You are under no obligation to do anything, least of which as far as I am concerned. As for what good is the detail ''inquiring minds want to know'' that is the point of converting fiction to science!

Quite, but it starts limiting his traditional jurisdiction which some people find distasteful and are consequently unreceptive in the same way as those who just seemed to prefer the Earth being flat.Earlier I stumbled across a 'revisiting' of Dobzhansky's Genetics and the Origin of Species and I found a line which summed it up nicely for me.

I find no relations between a molecular biologist going over the details of cell assembly by scientific means and folks believing the earth was flat.. you want to loan what you write some credence, I'll let go of the platitudes...

"After all, species differences are simply the final disposition of the standing genetic variation within species, so it is the nature of that standing variation and of the forces modulating it that is the real stuff of evolutionary
genetics. All else is just developmental and molecular biology."

indeed, and that is precisely why we share 50% of our genes with bananas.. I'll wait a few thousand years for bananas to evolve the other 50% to fully human before I retract the error of my ways

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/questions/question/919/


all the best

 

[Azy]

You are under no obligation to do anything, least of which as far as I am concerned. As for what good is the detail ''inquiring minds want to know'' that is the point of converting fiction to science!

My question was not about detail in general, rather the detail in the linked document versus it's relevance.

I find no relations between a molecular biologist going over the details of cell assembly by scientific means and folks believing the earth was flat..

Evolution is so well supported you might as well believe the Earth is flat. Why Mullan takes time out from astronomy to write such long winded articles arguing the probabilistic unlikeliness of an event no one even suggested might have happened is beyond me unless it's sole purpose is as a straw man. You inserting it into this thread puzzles me even more.

indeed, and that is precisely why we share 50% of our genes with bananas.. I'll wait a few thousand years for bananas to evolve the other 50% to fully human before I retract the error of my ways

That's the strangest thing I've heard anyone say about this topic, and I certainly didn't expect something so willfully idiotic from someone so intelligent and educated.

Do we share 50% of our genes with bananas because we evolved from bananas? Since I share a good portion of my genes with practically every living thing on the planet does that mean I evolved from everything?

Or perhaps the alternative seems a bit more likely, that we all have genes in common because we share the same heritage.

 

[جوري]

My question was not about detail in general, rather the detail in the linked document versus it's relevance.

without details, there is no evidence or room for discussion.. I don't see how there can be anything to talk about.. opinion are of little interest to me personally!

Evolution is so well supported you might as well believe the Earth is flat.

Now that you have put it that way, I am really going to dump all I know of science and join your band wagon!

Why Mullan takes time out from astronomy to write such long winded articles arguing the probabilistic unlikeliness of an event no one even suggested might have happened is beyond me unless it's sole purpose is as a straw man.

You can't really argue against contents of an article that you haven't read or properly refuted.. what do we call that? I think the term is spamming!

You inserting it into this thread puzzles me even more.

was it as puzzling as your mention of Harun Yahaya on a thread about prehistoric flutes or are you exempt from common sense?

That's the strangest thing I've heard anyone say about this topic, and I certainly didn't expect something so willfully idiotic from someone so intelligent and educated.

Perhaps you need two more doses of engineered gray matter to appreciate its genius!

Do we share 50% of our genes with bananas because we evolved from bananas? Since I share a good portion of my genes with practically every living thing on the planet does that mean I evolved from everything?

For me personally, these are the building blocks of our universe.. I don't see bananas into humans anymore than I see apes or single celled organisms for that matter... that should have been the obvious ratiocination of said exercise!

Or perhaps the alternative seems a bit more likely, that we all have genes in common because we share the same heritage.

Perhaps made by the same creator who used the same building blocks..
Evolution even if it were the answer, leaves many unanswered Q's


all the best

 

[Azy]

You can't really argue against contents of an article that you haven't read or properly refuted..

I read that article a long time ago and it doesn't need refuting. Whether it is 100% accurate or complete rubbish doesn't matter because the probability of randomly assembling a cell is of no use to anyone, certainly not us in the course of this thread.

For me personally

I think this is the problem. We're not discussing what you think is important or might have happened or is plausible, rather what can be seen to be true.

Evolution even if it were the answer, leaves many unanswered Q's

Isn't that why you engage in science, to ask questions and attempt to find answers instead of making up your own?

I don't understand why you might consider it a problem as we could say the same thing about the Quran. So long as there are minds there will be questions.

 

[جوري]

I read that article a long time ago and it doesn't need refuting. Whether it is 100% accurate or complete rubbish doesn't matter because the probability of randomly assembling a cell is of no use to anyone, certainly not us in the course of this thread.

you didn't read the article, if you had, you'd have seen alot of relevance.
Or perhaps it is just that you don't like things that argue against your beliefs, which is understandable!

I think this is the problem. We're not discussing what you think is important or might have happened or is plausible, rather what can be seen to be true.Isn't that why you engage in science, to ask questions and attempt to find answers instead of making up your own?

Again, I am at a loss, you write nonsense that has no intelligible meaning whatsoever least of which to the topic. If you know what happened, rather than what I think happened, then why not let us examine it, better yet, head down to Stockholm and collect your Nobel for that intermediate that has allegedly left science and religion at odds.

I don't understand why you might consider it a problem as we could say the same thing about the Quran. So long as there are minds there will be questions.

I don't consider it a problem at all, I consider it a substitution.. you don't like a set of beliefs, so you substitute it for another set of beliefs and irked at best if someone probes for deeper answers rather than take it at face value...

let me put all topics aside whether of flutes or evolution and ask you this..

what is your hope of this exercise?
Do you think, by subversive thinking and an attempt to discredit the author (rather than content of the article with like science) or subject us to yet another ad populum argument that you'll gain a position of advantage? or by appealing to my intellect or even vanity if I am to let go of the brain all together? You haven't so far written anything of substance it almost infuriates me to waste time on a thread that I could be using toward any number of less inane tasks.

Evolution is all about a series of probable events across a protracted period of time through set means known to science as DNA breaks, jumping genes, mutations, chromosomal alterations etc. as favorable conditions in our planet to foster the whole affair.. If you know of some other means and have some hard data then bring it.. we wouldn't be having a discussion back if there were complete demonstrable evidence.. you could potentially put the whole argument to rest, rather than misapply science and feel persecuted by a throng of faithful idiots.


all the best

 

[Azy]

let me put all topics aside whether of flutes or evolution and ask you this..

what is your hope of this exercise?

Let's not put these topics aside since the point of this 'exercise' was a simple question I alluded to at the beginning... In your eyes what is the significant difference between microevolution and macroevolution?

If the article you posted is relevant I don't see why, you could at least offer some explanation for it's inclusion rather than simply posting it and saying "Ha, refute that!"

 

[جوري]

Let's not put these topics aside since the point of this 'exercise' was a simple question I alluded to at the beginning... In your eyes what is the significant difference between microevolution and macroevolution?

If the article you posted is relevant I don't see why, you could at least offer some explanation for it's inclusion rather than simply posting it and saying "Ha, refute that!"

Again, I have explained and repeatedly.. your short term memory has got to be better than that of a gold fish especially with the visual aid of the search feature-- in fact the last paragraph of my last post is the very abridged summed up version of that..
if you know the means of adaptation as listed above (look up their subcategories) either on the forum here or google, then use them to give us speciation.. what you use to adapt makes you adapt, not switch species-- but again, if you know otherwise, I'd be really glad to hear it right after you head down to Stockholm to pick up your Nobel ...
you want to be an evolutionist, because it is soooooo proven and everyone believes it especially the 'scientition', then be an evolutionist, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to think without a label hanging over you like a badge of shame to classify you in one group or another!

I'll ask you at this point to pls stop wasting my time..

all the best

 

[Azy]

if you know otherwise, I'd be really glad to hear it right after you head down to Stockholm to pick up your Nobel

I don't see as there's much point, I won't be getting an award for something that's already been proved many times over.

what you use to adapt makes you adapt, not switch species

Adaptation is the heart and soul of evolution. - Niles Eldredge

That's exactly what causes speciation, when the genetic variation within a population is amplified (perhaps by geographical isolation and adaptation to the new habitat) and a group becomes genetically isolated.


I know that this can't be beyond you and that you must be aware of all the work that has gone on in this field so I have a feeling you would prefer to be a happy muslim than an honest biologist. I won't bother bringing it up in future.

 

[جوري]

I don't see as there's much point, I won't be getting an award for something that's already been proved many times over.

whatever you say..

Adaptation is the heart and soul of evolution. - Niles Eldredge

aha..

That's exactly what causes speciation, when the genetic variation within a population is amplified (perhaps by geographical isolation and adaptation to the new habitat) and a group becomes genetically isolated.

indeed.. I guess that is why every frameshift, missense, nonsense, acrocentric DNA break etc has given us a state of disease...I am at a loss on why genetic and molecular bio books have been holding out on us.. I am telling you, it is time you headed to Stockholm, for by God that you've got it...

I know that this can't be beyond you and that you must be aware of all the work that has gone on in this field so I have a feeling you would prefer to be a happy muslim than an honest biologist. I won't bother bringing it up in future.

you are so right, that is exactly it.. have you gratified your expectations now that you have appealed to every fallacy that you could muster?


all the best

 

[Azy]

I guess that is why every frameshift, missense, nonsense, acrocentric DNA break etc has given us a state of disease...

Mmm,
you,
might,
have,
missed,
some.

I suppose adult lactose tolerance, melanin levels, drug/pesticide resistance etc. don't count either.

I am at a loss on why genetic and molecular bio books have been holding out on us

"Furthermore, occasional mutations may turn out to be beneficial to the survival and reproduction of the organism. The accumulation of such beneficial mutations allows the organism to evolve in response to changing environmental conditions."
Clark, David P., 2005. Molecular Biology. Academic Press. p. 334

"Conversely, the rare mutations that confer a major reproductive advantage on individuals who inherit them can spread rapidly in the population."
Alberts, Bruce., 2007. Molecular Biology of the Cell. Garland Science. p. 258

"Very rarely, a new mutation confers a selective advantage and increases the fitness of its carrier. Such a mutation will be subjected to positive (or advantageous) selection, which would be expected to foster its spread through a population"
Strachan, T. & Read, Andrew P., 2003. Human Molecular Genetics 3. Garland Science. p. 319

"Mutation is the motor of evolution. In prokaryotes short doubling times and large populations allow mutations which confer a survival advantage (in response to changes in the environment) to quickly become established."
Strachan, T. & Read, Andrew P., 2003. Human Molecular Genetics 3. Garland Science. p. 354

"In short, the distinction between the genetics of 'species differences' and 'speciation' is a rather subtle one. If one considers mainly allopatric speciation, the difference is more in scale than in kind."
Howard, Daniel J. & Berlocher, Stewart H., 1998. Endless Forms: Species and Speciation. Oxford University Press US. p. 340

 

[جوري]

Mmm,
you,
might,
have,
missed,
some.

I am not here to name every enzyme, or mutation, as I can guarantee listing some that will have you in your encyclopaedia for hours it won't change the outcome one bit.. also I see no relevance of the other articles, having resistant mice, or osteopetrosis, or FCH doesn't or the entire medical compendium still won't turn you into a different specie or a relative specie for that matter.. it gives you a medical condition... the problem is that you still can't synthesize what you are implying here to make sense to topic or have any relations to speciation.. all you do is give me personally a chuckle.. I am not sure as to how this affects other members, but you seem to tighten the noose around your own neck as far as I am persoanlly concerned!

I suppose adult lactose tolerance, melanin levels, drug/pesticide resistance etc. don't count either.

Count for what.. let me throw out some words in the air from which the reader is to decipher what he may, just fun' sake:

N-acetylgalactosamine-6-sulfate sulfatase, beta-glucuronidase, heparan N-sulfatase, alpha-L-iduronidase .. lol..
incidentally, did you know that if 'nature' didn't give you alpha-L-iduronidase , you'd have to pay $300,000 - 400,000 to the one company that had it engineered?

Another concern is ERT's cost, which may exceed $400,000 a year. Although it typically is covered by insurance, out-of-pocket expense can be significant, depending on insurance deductibles.
​

http://rn.modernmedicine.com/rnweb/...iseases/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/527784

have you thought about the zillions of enzymes in your body (that won't have you speciating) rather diseased, or dead in a hurry, that will cost you $400,000.. do you get down and show gratitude that it was giving you for free, that you don't even have a name for had I not listed it here, but take it for granted?.. or do you go about your day inventing ways to be absurd on an Islamic forum, thinking if you throw random terms out there, something is bound to take hold?...


unless you consider this child to be a different specie

Enzymes, proteins, DNA, jumping genes, mutations.. all of them work in a very predictable pattern.. all of them on a shelf housing rare genetic disorders amongst other books in my library.. I guarantee all the folks in there are still human.. if they manage to survive still go on to produce humans!
Let every aberration remind you of what you have.. truly so few are grateful!

want to try again?

all the best

 

[Azy]

The torrent of medical jargon is starting so I guess you don't actually have much more to say.

I see no relevance of the other articles, having resistant mice, or osteopetrosis, or FCH doesn't or the entire medical compendium still won't turn you into a different specie or a relative specie for that matter.. it gives you a medical condition...

The list was in response to your statement:
"I guess that is why every frameshift, missense, nonsense, acrocentric DNA break etc has given us a state of disease"

I doubt everyone would agree with your opinion that increased bone strength, creating new enzymes to metabolise additional foodstuffs or a resistance to toxins come under the heading of "disease". That is unless your definition of disease includes everything which is somewhat different to the majority of the population regardless of whether it is beneficial to the subject or not.


You also claim that "genetic and molecular bio books have been holding out on us" regarding beneficial mutations and speciation, but I have found references to these in many books, including the ones quoted on the previous page.
That seems a little strange considering your opinion that neither of these things actually occur, so I can only realistically come to the conclusion that either all those authors are wrong, or you are wrong.

 

[Charzhino]

Gossamer, if you can tell us why ERV's are found in the exact same position in human genomes and chimp genomes, then you will have disproved evolution by common decent.

 

[جوري]

The torrent of medical jargon is starting so I guess you don't actually have much more to say.The list was in response to your statement:

Perhaps that is precisely why you shouldn't be copying articles that you don't understand the importance or meaning of? -- that way you wouldn't complain later about 'medical jargon' that is over your head!

"I guess that is why every frameshift, missense, nonsense, acrocentric DNA break etc has given us a state of disease"

indeed

I doubt everyone would agree with your opinion that increased bone strength, creating new enzymes to metabolise additional foodstuffs or a resistance to toxins come under the heading of "disease". That is unless your definition of disease includes everything which is somewhat different to the majority of the population regardless of whether it is beneficial to the subject or not.

I don't know who 'everyone' is.. throwing 'everyone' in doesn't sweeten the pot or a solid argument make nor does it clarify your position in a demonstrable provable fashion & not a romanticized theoretical one -- increase in bone density isolate to help those with osteoporosis, I fear has no relevance to speciation.. in fact increased bone density in and of itself is a form of disease called osteopetrosis..
here is the first website that came up:
http://www.osteopetrosis.org/

mice that are resistant to warfarin means you'll have to kill them with heparin or maybe Lepirudin to be humane and are a big spender.. it won't turn them into goats though.. muscle changes in all its forms isn't beneficial as the body works in a very fine delicate balance... if they did, then the sufferers wouldn't be visiting doctors, but isolating themselves for metamorphosis. And you sir, again, down to Stockholm to claim your Nobel!
by the way wasn't you I had discussed SCT with before and you ended up with a foot in your mouth when you came to aid your pal?

Originally Posted by Converse02
Whoa, you found TWO case studies in which a person with sickle cell trait happened to have renal papillary necrosis and renal medullary carcinoma.
Geez, I guess those TWO cases are enough to get the whole gene selected out (despite it's benefits against malaria) and disprove evolution!!! Are you for real?

It isn't two cases at all, how many times must I publicly embarrass you, You are hilarious.. here is an article about diseases that can arise in sickle cell trait,
http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/sickle_trait.html

which include Life-threatening complications of exercise, splenic infarction, hematuria, UTI, Polycystic kidney dz. renal medullar ca. pulmonary embolism, proliferative retinopathy etc etc..

Originally Posted by Azy
I don't want to start another argument but it does seem like you're being purposefully evasive because it's clear what his point is.

The first line of the page you posted states :
"Sickle cell trait usually is not regarded as a disease state because it has complications that are either uncommon or mild. Nevertheless, under unusual circumstances serious morbidity or mortality can result".

Indeed, and Malaria is a dz state --schizont infected Rbcs which like afore mentioned causes -- such as hypoxia, acidosis, high altitude etc cause the RBC's to go into a state similar to that of fulminant sickle cell.. i.e disabling the schizonts from surviving.. thus substituting one disease state for another doesn't confer immunity or superior genetics.. else we'd all be lining up at pfizer asking for vectors to transform our normal hemoglobin to the carrier trait in case we desire a leave of absence to the Serengeti!
It is serendipitous that folks already in an ailing state not succumb to a superimposed infection..
why don't you highlight to me how substituting one disease state for another proves evolution?

You also claim that "genetic and molecular bio books have been holding out on us" regarding beneficial mutations and speciation, but I have found references to these in many books, including the ones quoted on the previous page.

Becoming a resistant bacteria is beneficial? having an increased bone density is beneficial? having sct is beneficial, even if I am to accept that 'because everyone else has' what is the relation of adaptation to becoming a different specie? you want to shed some light on that?

That seems a little strange considering your opinion that neither of these things actually occur, so I can only realistically come to the conclusion that either all those authors are wrong, or you are wrong.

Perhaps the problem is that you've no understanding of the science that you are quoting or its relevance to the topic at hand...

all the best

 

[جوري]

Gossamer, if you can tell us why ERV's are found in the exact same position in human genomes and chimp genomes, then you will have disproved evolution by common decent.

If you want to tell us why 50% of our genomes are similar to those on bananas then you'll have proved evolution by common fruit..


all the best!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

all you do is give me personally a chuckle.. I am not sure as to how this affects other members, but you seem to tighten the noose around your own neck as far as I am persoanlly concerned!

It looks to me like you stopped understanding Azy's points quite a while ago, hence the usual flood of medical irrelevance.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,



It looks to me like you stopped understanding Azy's points quite a while ago, hence the usual flood of medical irrelevance.

Peace

So long as you understand Azy's points, then that will be all that matters..
concordance between the two of you or 'everyone' else, seems to come up empty as far as the scientific community and me as a person.. none of the articles he has quoted actually have any relevance to Evolution, no matter how hard you both strain and congratulate each other.


all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

So long as you understand Azy's points, then that will be all that matters..
concordance between the two of you or 'everyone' else, seems to come up empty as far as the scientific community and me as a person.. none of the articles he has quoted actually have any relevance to Evolution, no matter how hard you both strain and congratulate each other.


all the best

It's another case of: "whatever you say..."

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


It's another case of: "whatever you say..."

Peace

It makes me wonder why you bother take up web-space all together? Do you want to grab my attention only to let me know that you are ignoring me? :hmm: if you can't gauge the topic and elucidate your point(s), then it is best you take the position of a spectator?

all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

It makes me wonder why you bother take up web-space all together? Do you want to grab my attention only to let me know that you are ignoring me? :hmm: if you can't gauge the topic and elucidate your point(s), then it is best you take the position of a spectator?

all the best

You invited comments, so that's what I gave.

It's not like it's actually worth discussing anything with you, is it?

Peace