Wife Beating

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I contest your usage of this fallacy in said context. From the wiki page you linked:
So, "any man who implements the teachings of Islam in his life, would not be violent to his wife or anyone else in the first place, and would know his limits", is okay, because not being unjustly violent is what defines a follower of Muhammad SAW. Just as not eating meat defines a vegetarian

Clearly a different case, because not being unjustly violent is not "the single thing that precisely defines a person as a" Muslim. Lots of people who are not Muslims are also not unjustly violent.

There is no point discussing these fiqhi matters with you because you do not even believe in Allah. Since you do not believe in Him, you will never actually understand the shari rulings. And even if you do, it would still not make you believe in Allah. So what is the point?

I'm interested in seeing how you justify what I see as a dangerous state of affairs. It's up to you if you want to carry on discussing it.

this is simply your perception. Allah did not end it there, there is a ahadith to explain what we are really suppose to do.

This is precisely my point. The verse in the Qur'an needs extra clarification, from ahadith or even centuries of tafseers.

So Islam left no room for wrong interpretations and now if some people do it how can you blame Islam for it?

Lots of people interpret Islam wrongly all the time. Islam left plenty of room for wrong interpretations.

Your post shows that you know nothing about basic Islamic science. The Qur'an and sahih ahadith are two sources of Islam and the sahih ahadith are the second revelation from Allah. They go hand in hand when explaining Islam and the rulings are not limited to just one of the two sources

Do you really think that I've managed to spend four years on an Islamic forum without being aware of this?

Secondly, just because the source is divine, does not mean that the addressees are also divine. We are limited and everyone thinks differently. Have humans ever agreed upon one thing? They do not even agree upon who there Creator is let alone more issues. It is a fallacy in and of itself, knowing our limitations, to claim that all humans should understand the Qur'an in same way. There is no evidence that even if the Qur'an would have been revealed in simplest of forms we would have agreed upon it. What evidence do you have that if Allah used a different term then we all would have agreed over its meaning and implication? We would have still argued about it. Why: because we are HUMANS!

All of this seems to be directed against a claim I have not made. I'm not suggesting that there is one correct, total interpretation of the Qur'an, or that there could or should be. Still, everything you say only underlines the importance of clarity in a book that is used as ultimate guidance by millions of people. In fact, regardless of what it says, any book that claims to be the direct word of god (and which is taken seriously by many) is going to give people a level of certainty in their affairs that could potentially be used in a harmful way.

Lastly, you do not know what is best for us; the Lord knows what is best for us. All you can do is play guessing games with your limited understanding and corrupt perception of reality and what is truth.

Why, thank you.

so what if read by millions of people and no clear to them.

But the Qur'an is constantly being described as "clear" by Muslims!

All of these people are told in the Qur'an that if you do not have knowledge then refer to those who have knowledge. Is it Islam's fault that people do not do that, even though Islam closed the door to distortion and misinterpretation?

If a person's wrong interpretation of the Qur'an causes harm, yes.

Since there are abundant examples of people whose wrong interpretations of Islam have caused harm, then clearly Islam has not closed the door to distortion and misinterpretation.

Please talk about Islam and not the actions of people!

Perhaps you'd like to hear my thoughts on how succesful communism has been. Please don't mention Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot, though. Same logic, right?

I'm interested in trying to find out what can be done to help Muslims and non-Muslims understand each other. It's why I've been on this forum for so long. Given the current divide that exists between us in the world, I think it would be good if more people did the same. I'm not qualified to interpret Islamic scriptures, so anything I say about them is automatically suspect, and now I'm not allowed to talk about the actions of Muslims either.

How would you suggest I continue trying to understand Islam and Muslims?

Peace

 

[Rasema]

My sentiments when I read through the thread. I can't believe that some people are condoning wife beating n backing it up wit some twisted opinion n trying to pass that off for sunnah. Look into the Life of rasululah (saw) did he ever hit or beat his wives? No! Wat does Allah say in the Quraan?



إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ


((Say: if you love Allaah then follow me and Allaah will love you and forgive you your sins and Allaah is the Most Forgiving, Most Merciful)) (Surah Aal 'Imraan: 31)


U can't pick an ayah & reject the human example (Prophet mohamed (saw)) that Allah sent to mankind. In his life & character we know how he treated his wives.

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) also said,

كل أمتي يدخلون الجنة إلا من أبى, قالوا: يا رسول الله و من أبى؟ قال: من أطاعني دخل الجنة و من عصاني فقد أبى

((All of my Ummah will enter heaven except those who refuse (or reject), so they asked him: oh messenger of Allaah, who is the one who refuses? The Prophet said: whoever obeys me will enter heaven and whoever obeys me he has refused.)) (Saheeh al-Bukhaaree, 7280)

Where did this wife beating opinion rise from? It surely did not stem from the character & manners of Rasululah (saw).

Wa Aliku muselam

Now hiting ones wife is not permitted at all?

 

[GuestFellow]

Greetings,

Lots of people interpret Islam wrongly all the time. Islam left plenty of room for wrong interpretations.

Peace

Greetings,

The same is applicable with UK law. The complexity of how an Act of Parliament is structured and written in legal terminology leaves room for wrong interpretations. The courts may spend several days trying to interpret one part of a legislation on serious criminal matters (especially fraud cases) and sometimes this may go on for years with civil cases. There is plenty of room for wrong interpretations and there have been instances the law has been applied unfairly or misunderstood.

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Greetings,

The same is applicable with UK law. The complexity of how an Act of Parliament is structured and written in legal terminology leaves room for wrong interpretations. The courts may spend several days trying to interpret one part of a legislation on serious criminal matters (especially fraud cases) and sometimes this may go on for years with civil cases. There is plenty of room for wrong interpretations and there have been instances the law has been applied unfairly or misunderstood.

Peace

You make a good point, but nobody is claiming that UK law is perfect or unalterable.

Peace

 

[alcurad]

this is not the same as 'Domestic Violence' and whatnot, so don't confuse the two. it does not give a man free reign to 'beat' his wife as some think, actually the scholars have said a woman can be granted divorce if her husband mistreats her, and certainly beating qualifies as mistreatment.

as it were no one should do it, it's not the proper way to treat a wife, nor is it how the prophet acted, but to say it isn't allowed at all under any circumstances is not correct either, bear in mind the context, culture when the verse were revealed and you'll see.

czgibson, generally the qur'an has no wrong interpretation, all interpretations are correct as long as they take into account the context, and only the truth is sought. ie. assumptions & biases put aside as much as possible.
there is no single agreed upon interpretation, rather it's for us to decide since the qur'an is intentionally ambiguous in many places.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

czgibson, generally the qur'an has no wrong interpretation, all interpretations are correct as long as they take into account the context, and only the truth is sought. ie. assumptions & biases put aside as much as possible.

All interpretations are correct, provided they stick to a list of unverifiable conditions? This is very slippery territory.

there is no single agreed upon interpretation, rather it's for us to decide since the qur'an is intentionally ambiguous in many places.

That's the first time I've heard a Muslim person say that. I've always maintained that the Qur'an is a highly suggestive text, open to many interpretations. In postmodernist literary theory, this is often held to be a virtue in a novel or other text.

When the text is perceived to be the ultimate guidance for mankind, though, and is intentionally ambiguous, doesn't that pose a problem?

Peace

 

[MSalman]

Wa ALIKU MUSELAM

Brother,Islamiclife,if you read what i wrote again I said that we all learned not that we all are knowledgeable. And if I say something about Islam I've read it by a scholar.

I always make my statements into questions. If I don't It was just my opinion so that others correct it.This is the way I learn.

my apology for misunderstanding your point sister, wa barakAllahu feekee

@gibson

can we discuss this in another thread? I do not like hijacking threads

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

hasnt this issue been debated on end here :uhwhat

 

[khaliduk]

you cannot beat up your wife no matter what she does..... the worst you can do is hit her with a miswak.

jazak allah

 

[cat eyes]

Greetings,

From an outsider's point of view this all looks deeply unsettling. It is impossible to say for sure exactly what the Qur'an means when it says "beat them", but people can and do interpret the verse themselves.

it might look unsettling to an unbeliever because they will obviously believe the worst. they will jump to crazy conclusions. the holy qur'an was revealed in arabic and one word could have other meanings thats why us muslims refer to the hadiths of the prophet mohammad pbuh for guidance on this sensitive matter.

Surely a violent man who feels like beating his wife might well be convinced in that moment that it's going to improve the situation? That doesn't make it right.
if he fears Allah he won't transgress his limits if he is a true believer. if he is a violent man, hes not any muslim! he is a syco


It permits and condones beating.

islam don't condone beating. beating as you say and to beat lightly as its stated in the hoy qur'an are two different things. understand the definition of the word light then you will come to know its not that type of beating like how you believe to be.

It's possible to hit someone quite hard without leaving a mark. If no mark is left on an abused woman, it's her word against his on how hard the beating was.
i am 100percent sure if a man hit a woman quite hard it would surely leave a little bruise. i don't know what human dose not bruise and if they are bruised on the inside.. Allah is all knower


It is staggering to think that these scholars believe that a tap with a toothbrush is going to work as some kind of discipline method.
not sure weather this saying came from the prophet pbuh or from an early scholar.. I will have to confirm that for you.

The bottom line is: large numbers of men could come away from a reading of the Qur'an convinced that god has told them it's OK to beat their wives. They may be wrong in their belief, but why would an omniscient god allow them such a dangerous loophole like this?

Peace

Allah guides many people by his scriptures and misleads many by it

 

[alcurad]

Greetings,

All interpretations are correct, provided they stick to a list of unverifiable conditions? This is very slippery territory.

consider the example of science and on what it stands on, and you'll see my point.

That's the first time I've heard a Muslim person say that. I've always maintained that the Qur'an is a highly suggestive text, open to many interpretations. In postmodernist literary theory, this is often held to be a virtue in a novel or other text.

it is a highly suggestive text for the simple reason that for a text to survive beyond the generation it was written in it has to be plastic. the qur'an could be seen as a novel of sorts, weaving history, ethics, politics and pre-laws into a single narrative. but it is much more than that, religious texts are the highest forms of expression there is, not just of literature although the devices are seemingly literary.

When the text is perceived to be the ultimate guidance for mankind, though, and is intentionally ambiguous, doesn't that pose a problem?

why would it? as a universal message it has to be broad enough to allow for the individual understanding, yet not so vague as to lose meaning.
Peace

Peace

 

[Uthman]

Regarding interpretation of the Qur'an, I feel the need to make a couple of things clear. There are, in fact, numerous conditions that must be met before one is qualified to make tafsir (exegesis) of the Qur'an. This is from another post on the forum:

The classical Sunni scholar Imam As-Suyuti cites in his monumental book on the sciences of the Qur’an al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur’an fifteen or so characteristics of the Mufassir. Scholars affirm that any tafsir (commentary), which disregards these principles, must be scrutinized with great concern and caution, if not completely rejected. Below are some important conditions:

1- Proper intention and sound creed.
2- Knowledge of the Arabic Language; this requires one to master Grammar [nahu], Morphology [sarf], word etymology [ishtiqaq], Arabic rhetoric [balagha], Poetry amongst other things.
3- Knowledge of the various modes of Qira’ats [recitations].
4- Knowledge of the Principles of Fiqh [Usul al-Fiqh] and Fiqh.
5- Knowledge of the Asbab an Nuzul [reasons for revelation] and its related topics.
6- Knowledge of the Nasikh and Mansukh.
7- Knowledge of Hadith especially those pertaining the explicit commentary made by the Prophet (pbuh).
8- Knowledge of the makki, madani, muhkam, mutashabih and the various types of ‘Ijaz of the Qur’an.
9- Referring to the reports of the Companions of the Prophet.
10- Considering the reports of the successors of the Companions.
11- Consulting the opinions of eminent scholars.
12- Following the proper methodology of exegesis of the Qur’an.
​

With regards to the methodology of exegesis, the orthodox scholars follow systematic principles in interpreting the Qur'an.

As-Suyootee said:

The scholars have said: Whoever wishes to interpret the Qur'an, he should first turn to the Qur'an itself. This is because what has been narrated succintly in one place might be expounded upon in another...

If he has done that, then he turns to the Sunnah, for it is the explainer of the Qur'an, and a clarifier to it. Imaam as-Shaafi'ee said: "All that the Prophet saws said is based on his understanding of the Qur'an. And Allah said:

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِتَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ بِمَا أَرَاكَ اللَّهُ

"Verily, We have revealed the Book, in truth, so that you may judge between mankind by that which Allah has shown you" (4:105)

And the Prophet saws said: "Indeed, I have been given the Qur'an, and something similar to it, meaning the Sunnah.

If he does not find it (the tafseer) in the Sunnah, he turns to the statements of the Companions, for they are the most knowledgeable of it, since they witnessed the circumstances and situations the Qur'an was revealed in, ans since they were blessed with complete understanding, and true knowledge, and pious actions...
​

I don't actually moderate this section of the forum, but a new thread should probably be created if we wish to continue discussing interpretation of the Qur'an, since the original question of the thread starter has been answered.

 

[Rebel]

...you can beat your wife but not real beating only to make her afraid to do so if she refuse to make love with you...

Disturbing...

 

[Malaikah]

I understand that people posting here have the best of intentions but it is very important that we do not speak without knowledge.

For starters, we need to the understand the meaning of the word 'beating'. To beat someone means to hit them repeated and very forcefully in a way that causes a lot of harm and damage. Therefore, when you say Islam permits a light beating, even though you probably mean to say that Islam permits a light hit (a hit it different to beating), people are going to think you mean that Islam permits you to repeatedly punch your wife, or something terrible like that!

Please be careful with the words you use and keep in mind that people will misunderstand what you say, especially when it comes to the topic of so calling wife 'beatings'. Islam NEVER permits a man to beat his wife - never.

The only thing that is allowed is a light hit, and this has been explained:

Hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury. Al-Hasan al-Basri said: this means that it should not cause pain.

‘Ata’ said: I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]

The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.​

Also one must keep in mind that hitting the wife is ONLY if she is doing something very wrong and you have already tried to speak to her about it, and that has failed, AND you have abandoned her bed and that has failed, ONLY then is it permissible to hit her lightly.

In no way does Islam allow men to hit out at their wives in a moment of anger, to take out their frustration on them or simply because he felt like it, as some people wrongly claim. As Muslims we must protect the sanctity of our religion and also it is upon us to protect women from abusive husbands - we therefore must be very assertive in establishing the fact that NO, Islam does not in anyway way allow a man to abuse his wife!