Critique of "Mere Christianity"

[جوري]

Thank you for you long and informative insertion but I asked where in the Qu'ran we might find the greatest commandments?

greetings,

for me personally I think the first ten verses of suret al'moemnoon as well suret al'ikhlas..however it is hard to choose as all the commandments are found all throughout..

peace!

 

[IAmZamzam]

I gave the answer to your question, Hugo.

 

[جوري]

Skye, so the Islamic interpretation of 'love your neighbour as yourself' applies to the attitude towards and treatment of Muslims and non-Muslims alike in equal measures?

I assume so, but it always comes under personal preference and discretion, for instance, I know many christians allege that they 'love' their neighbor but come here with nothing but hate and well all their hate mongering sites are anything but..


all the best!

 

[glo]

I assume so, but it always comes under personal preference and discretion, for instance, I know many christians allege that they 'love' their neighbor but come here with nothing but hate and well all their hate mongering sites are anything but..


all the best!

Thank you for your reply, Skye.

I think for Christians the commandment seem very clear indeed:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

(Matthew 22:36-40)

If Christians spread hatred against others, then they are breaking the commandment!

In answer to Hugo's question whether those two commandments appear with such directness and clarity in the Qu'ran, would it be fair to reply that they don't?
We haven't really mentioned much about the first one - although I don't doubt that there are references to loving Allah in the Qu'ran. (Here is a great opportunity for you to mention how I claim to have read the Qu'ran but never did so properly ;D ... unfortunately I am not blessed with a photographic memory ... :shade

As for the second commandments, there are instructions as to how to treat Muslims, friendly non-Muslims and unfriendly non-Muslims - but as far as deciding who is 'your neighbour' seems to come down to (as you say) "personal preference and discretion".
Have I got that right?

 

[جوري]

Thank you for your reply, Skye.

I think for Christians the commandment seem very clear indeed:

Clear on paper only I guess, since history speaks otherwise and it tends to repeat itself!

If Christians spread hatred against others, then they are breaking the commandment!

Perhaps you should start sending some of your famous PMs to some of the Christians on board alerting them to that breech in commandments.. in your mind do you think it matters? or that since Jesus already paid for their sins in advance he'd make a few allowances?!

In answer to Hugo's question whether those two commandments appear with such directness and clarity in the Qu'ran, would it be fair to reply that they don't?
We haven't really mentioned much about the first one - although I don't doubt that there are references to loving Allah in the Qu'ran. (Here is a great opportunity for you to mention how I claim to have read the Qu'ran but never did so properly ;D ... unfortunately I am not blessed with a photographic memory ... :shade

So the pilgrimage thread doesn't come to mind? the one were you alleged it was a mohammedan practice and not found in the Quran, conveniently missing its mention 23 times and a chapter so entitled amongst others?

As for the second commandments, there are instructions as to how to treat Muslims, friendly non-Muslims and unfriendly non-Muslims - but as far as deciding who is 'your neighbour' seems to come down to (as you say) "personal preference and discretion".
Have I got that right?

Being a christian undoubtedly makes you right all the time...

all the best

 

[Uthman]

Please stick to the topic.

 

[جوري]

^^ rather I am done with this topic!

 

[Grace Seeker]

This could be a very good thread if we stay on topic. I am one who thoroughly loved the book. Butm even as a Christian, I too saw some flaws in it. So, reading your changing view of the book is of peculiar interest. I look forward to more readers responses and our mutual reflections.

Please stick to the topic.

Trying to get with the program as requested , I return to the OP:

“There are only two views that face all the facts. One is the Christian view that this is a good world that has gone wrong, but still retains the memory of what it ought to have been. The other is the view called Dualism” (page 42).

Wow.

I don’t think I could ever count how many excluded middles are left out of that! Islam is only one of maybe thousands.

Did Lewis leave out middle ground in saying that there are only two views that face all the facts? Certainly. But I think so intentionally.

Just as the Muslim divides the world into Muslim and non-Muslim, just as the Jew divides the world into Jew and Gentile, so too Lewis divides the world into and Christian worldview and a non-Christian one. Where I think he is wrong is in labeling the other worldview as dualism -- a world in which things are led by either a supernatural evil or a supernatural good. Sort of like the cartoons with an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. But then, he really isn't dividing the whole world up into these to camps, because by page 42 Lewis isn't at the beginning of his argument. He has progressed to the point in his argument where he is only talking about the theistic subset of the world.

So, given that, I'm not sure that he is wrong after all. In fact, isn't Islam rather dualistic? (I'm actually asking, not declaring.) I hear that in Islam life is a test. What sort of test? Well between submitting to Allah (i.e., good) and not submitting to Allah (i.e., evil). Certainly there are many different ways that one can be found to not submit to Allah, but in the end, as I have come to understand Islam as presented on these boards, life is either one or the other. And that is all that Lewis is saying when he describes all else as Dualism.


Before proceeding, I await comment and correction in case I have mis-spoken as regards putting Islam in the Dualism camp. I know that I did not consider everything that is true about Islam, and perhaps there is something in that which I did not consider that would be reason to say that I (and therefore Lewis) is wrong about this grouping.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Did Lewis leave out middle ground in saying that there are only two views that face all the facts? Certainly. But I think so intentionally.

Just as the Muslim divides the world into Muslim and non-Muslim, just as the Jew divides the world into Jew and Gentile, so too Lewis divides the world into and Christian worldview and a non-Christian one. Where I think he is wrong is in labeling the other worldview as dualism -- a world in which things are led by either a supernatural evil or a supernatural good. Sort of like the cartoons with an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. But then, he really isn't dividing the whole world up into these to camps, because by page 42 Lewis isn't at the beginning of his argument. He has progressed to the point in his argument where he is only talking about the theistic subset of the world.

So, given that, I'm not sure that he is wrong after all. In fact, isn't Islam rather dualistic? (I'm actually asking, not declaring.) I hear that in Islam life is a test. What sort of test? Well between submitting to Allah (i.e., good) and not submitting to Allah (i.e., evil). Certainly there are many different ways that one can be found to not submit to Allah, but in the end, as I have come to understand Islam as presented on these boards, life is either one or the other. And that is all that Lewis is saying when he describes all else as Dualism.


Before proceeding, I await comment and correction in case I have mis-spoken as regards putting Islam in the Dualism camp. I know that I did not consider everything that is true about Islam, and perhaps there is something in that which I did not consider that would be reason to say that I (and therefore Lewis) is wrong about this grouping.

Sorry I'm late in replying. Lewis defines Dualism in the book as the belief in two equal and opposite (evidently impersonal) forces behind everything (as though watered down versions of God and the Devil, but where both are each other's equal and neither will ever win--he speaks of the strange trope elsewhere, and in other books). Does that sound like Islam to you? And the important thing, as I pointed out, was how Lewis leaped right to the Christianity/Dualism bifurcation pretty much right out of the frickin' blue. He had eliminated very few worldviews beforehand even in attempt and all the sudden, out of nowhere, here comes a declaration that it all comes down to either Christianity or Dualism.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Sorry I'm late in replying. Lewis defines Dualism in the book as the belief in two equal and opposite (evidently impersonal) forces behind everything (as though watered down versions of God and the Devil, but where both are each other's equal and neither will ever win--he speaks of the strange trope elsewhere, and in other books). Does that sound like Islam to you?

No. That doesn't sound like Islam. But it also doesn't sound like Lewis. I'll have to get out my copy of Mere Christianity and re-read for what you describe. But I know that it the idea you presented does NOT reflect Lewis' larger theology. Books such as Screwtape Letters, A Great Divorce and the Narnian chronicles make it clear that Lewis believes that evil is doomed to ultimately to lose out to good.

But, I'll double check to see if that is or is not presented in Mere Christianity.

 

[IAmZamzam]

No. That doesn't sound like Islam. But it also doesn't sound like Lewis. I'll have to get out my copy of Mere Christianity and re-read for what you describe. But I know that it the idea you presented does NOT reflect Lewis' larger theology. Books such as Screwtape Letters, A Great Divorce and the Narnian chronicles make it clear that Lewis believes that evil is doomed to ultimately to lose out to good.

But, I'll double check to see if that is or is not presented in Mere Christianity.

I did not say that's what he believed. I said that's how he defined Dualism: equal but opposite, both eternal, both forces.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I did not say that's what he believed. I said that's how he defined Dualism: equal but opposite, both eternal, both forces.

OK. Thanks for the correction. But what, then, is wrong with that definition?

Or perhaps your objection is not with the portrayal of Dualism, but in Lewis saying that it is either Christianity or Dualism? Are you wishing to critique that Lewis did not consider Islam as just as much of an alternative to Dualism as is Christianity?

 

[IAmZamzam]

OK. Thanks for the correction. But what, then, is wrong with that definition?

Or perhaps your objection is not with the portrayal of Dualism, but in Lewis saying that it is either Christianity or Dualism? Are you wishing to critique that Lewis did not consider Islam as just as much of an alternative to Dualism as is Christianity?

All of the above. I have already addressed each and every one of those three questions with what I've said just above and in the review itself.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well, I can see where you are coming from with that critique. One wonders whether Lewis even considered Islam at all at the time of his writing?

So, let's talk about Islam. I see two different answers given by Islam with regard to the problem of evil in the universe. One answer is that life is a struggle. But struggle though it is you must choose good and not evil. The other is that though you fail to measure up to God's standard, God is merciful and will judge you based on your heart.


If one was to place those ideas on a scale with a world created good by God on one end and a dualistic world where evil and good are opposite forces in an eternal struggle for dominion, would those two ways of thinking end up at opposite ends of the scale. And quite honestly, the one I hear expressed as representative of Islam most often on these boards is the first and more dualitic of the two approaches toward life.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Well, I can see where you are coming from with that critique. One wonders whether Lewis even considered Islam at all at the time of his writing?

Precisely. Or of his very conversion, and the rest of his whole life, all of which worries me as to the fate of his soul. I said it all in much more detail and evidence in the review.

So, let's talk about Islam. I see two different answers given by Islam with regard to the problem of evil in the universe. One answer is that life is a struggle. But struggle though it is you must choose good and not evil. The other is that though you fail to measure up to God's standard, God is merciful and will judge you based on your heart.

The heart is part of it...the actions, really...the two things aren't mutually exclusive, nor the two "answers".

If one was to place those ideas on a scale with a world created good by God on one end and a dualistic world where evil and good are opposite forces in an eternal struggle for dominion, would those two ways of thinking end up at opposite ends of the scale. And quite honestly, the one I hear expressed as representative of Islam most often on these boards is the first and more dualitic of the two approaches toward life.

I repeat: Dualism, as defined by Lewis, is marked by it being forces of good and evil behind the universe and these forces being equal and equally eternal. In Islam we are taught that Satan is (1) not a force but a created, conscious entity, (2) not eternal but created and mortal, and (3) anything but equal to God--indeed, even further away from His equal than traditional Christian thought would have it, given that he's a mere djinn instead of a literal, true angel (if indeed it is possible to be lesser than God in degrees--it may be like subtracting numbers exponentially from infinity).

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK. Thanks. Which leads me to want to discuss the different ways that Islam and Christianity deal with the problem of evil, but I think that probably deserves its own thread.

 

[Hugo]

OK. Thanks. Which leads me to want to discuss the different ways that Islam and Christianity deal with the problem of evil, but I think that probably deserves its own thread.

Yes that sounds like it might be an interesting thread because if one is a believer at all then how God grants forgiveness is a serious question even if ultimately we cannot understand why evil exists.