Bible authenticity and transmission,fully detailed argument.

Status
Not open for further replies.
So it wasn't Christianity that mired in the dark ages, while Islam was at the height of enlightenment?

The fact is Christians could have gone the same path Al-Ghazzali and the Muslims went, and that is to reject philosophy as a whole. Instead the Medievals decided to translate the Greek, Jewish, and Islamic philosophical works into Latin. If Avicenna or Avveroes had a worthy commentary on Aristotle, it was studied in the universities, despite the religious differences. This move took a certain enlightenment on the part of the medievals, which was unfortunately not found among the Muslims, despite their developed civilization at the time.

Hilarious...

take pride in folks who make your god akin to a ******* and his mother a most holy woman a prostitute and that is your claim to authenticity of your religion if they acknowledge their existence all together:

Some historians go further. It is well known, and long a matter of controversy, that beginning in the early 19th century some historians disputed the existence of an historical Jesus at all. According to this theory, Jesus never existed and the early church fathers created him as a figure for their religion.

What's important is that since the 19th century the move has been in favor of Christianity. Let me give you an example. The online edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia was written around 1900. On the dating of the Gospels, the Encyclopedia authors admitted the earliest they could be dated was the 100Ad or beyond. Now however, the Gospels can be dated circa 70 AD, and the works of Paul circa 50 AD. The evidence that is uncovered only brings us closer to what Christians have traditionally believed.

Can the same be said of Islam?
 
btw thomas acquinas was an apprentice to a Muslim scholar and was highly influenced by the work of ibn Sina.

Thomas what is man, what is the human person, it serves to explain what is God, the divine essence, it serves also to explain the transcendentals: unity, truth, goodness, beauty. It is a brilliant discovery that Aristotle had not seen, and St. Thomas had not read in Aristotle, but in Avicenna, a Muslim philosopher. Avicenna distinguished between essence and existence – the fact of being present in reality. And he said that philosophy had to concern itself with the essences because existence is not part of essence.
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catchmeta/Thom.htm

isn't it amazing how convenient that you should leave that out.. even the best that your world has produced owes a great deal of its debt to Islam..

you should read more often you know before you write, unless you are accustomed to dealing with only like minds? you are likely to encounter things on this forum that will make you swallow your foot and repeatedly!

all the best
 
The fact is Christians could have gone the same path Al-Ghazzali and the Muslims went, and that is to reject philosophy as a whole. Instead the Medievals decided to translate the Greek, Jewish, and Islamic philosophical works into Latin. If Avicenna or Avveroes had a worthy commentary on Aristotle, it was studied in the universities, despite the religious differences. This move took a certain enlightenment on the part of the medievals, which was unfortunately not found among the Muslims, despite their developed civilization at the time.
They have been down the ignorant path, I believe still, until they decided to monopolize other sovereign nations to steal their wealth and the best they had to offer. Any work that was translated was really courtesy of Muslims, who have not only taken the works of the ancient but perfected and corrected its mistakes. See the works of Dr. George Saliba for specific examples. The Muslim world was the very birth place of enlightenment, I am not really interested in your opinion in face of recorded historical facts!




Can the same be said of Islam?
Same what exactly be said?

we are not even on the same platform:
bismilsmall-1.gif


Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible
M S M Saifullah, Qasim Iqbal & Muhammad Ghoniem
[FONT=HELVETICA, ARIAL, sans-serif]© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.[/FONT]
[FONT=HELVETICA, ARIAL, sans-serif]Last Modified: 31st August 1999[/FONT]

dummy-1.gif
Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
The basis of evaluation of any hadîth (story or report) in Islam of any text concerned particularly with religion is based on the study of matn (i.e., text) and its isnad (i.e., chain of narration).
A hadîth (pl. ahâdîth) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; cAbdullah b. al-Mubârak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Imâm al-Bukhârî, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."[1]
The Christian 'hadîth' is composed of matn (text) but no isnad (chain of narration). Without isnad, as cAbdullah b. al-Mubarak said, anyone can claim anything saying that it is coming from the authority. The authorities in the case of Christian 'hadîth' are the Apostles and later day Church Fathers. But how can one be sure that the Christian 'hadîth' is not mixed with falsehood without the proper isnad and its verification?
The Old Testament, to certain extent and the New Testament in toto lack chain of narration. When this argument was put forward, the Christian missionary Jochen Katz wrote:
On 8 Oct 1998, Jochen Katz wrote (on a different thread):

> That is a bogus argument from an Islamic point of view.

Missionaries when cornered try to wiggle out of the argument by calling names. According to Katz, the Islamic argument of using the chain of narration, i.e., isnad, is 'bogus' because the New Testament and major part of Old Testament lacks it and above all it is a Muslim argument. By calling the Islamic argument of isnad 'bogus' Katz thought that he is already refuted it. Unfortunately, the Orientalists like Bernard Lewis who read this 'bogus' Islamic tradition and compares it with the Christian scholarship say that:
From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.[2]
So, after all this Islamic science of hadîth, called 'bogus' by Katz, was so advanced that its Christian counterparts were far far away from its sophistication. Futher where does it sophistication lie?
. . . it would have been easy to invent sayings of Muhammad. Because the cultural background of the Arabs had been oral the evidence that came to be expected was the chain of names of those who had passed on the anecdote containing the saying . . . The study of Traditions rapidly became a distinct branch of the studies of the general religious movement. It was soon realized that false Traditions were in circulation with sayings that Muhammad could not possibly have uttered. The chains of transmitters were therefore carefully scrutinised to make sure that the persons named could in fact have met one another, that they could be trusted to repeat the story accurately, and that they did not hold any heretical views. This implied extensive biographical studies; and many biographical dictionaries have been preserved giving the basic information about a man's teachers and pupils, the views of later scholars (on his reliability as a transmitter) and the date of his death. This biography-based critique of Traditions helped considerably to form a more or less common mind among many men throughout the caliphate about what was to be accepted and what rejected.[3]
If the Muslim traditions have been bogus, how come the Jews did not understand this and went on to use the great works composed by Muslims? Saadia Gaon, the famous Jewish linguist, says:
Saadia expresses himself unreservedly about his indebtness to Arabic authors, who served him as models in the composition of his work. "It is reported," he says, "that one of the worthies among the Ishmaelites, realizing to his sorrow that the people do not use the Arabic language correctly, wrote a short treatise for them. From which they might learn proper usages. Similarly, I have noticed that many of the Israelites even the common rules for the correct usage of our (Hebrew) language, much less the more difficult rules, so that when they speak in prose most of it is faulty, and when they write poetry only a few of the ancient rules are observed, and majority of them are neglected. This has induced me to compose a work in two parts containing most of the (Hebrew) words.[4]
Guillaume informs us in his preface of the book The Legacy Of Islam:
Since the beginning of the nineteenth century there has been a constant recourse to Arabic for the explanation of rare words and forms in Hebrew; for Arabic though more than a thousand years junior as a literary language, is the senior philosophically by countless centuries. Perplexing phenomenon in Hebrew can often be explained as solitary and archaic survivals of the form which are frequent and common in the cognate Arabic. Words and idioms whose precise sense had been lost in Jewish tradition, receive a ready and convincing explanation from the same source. Indeed no serious student of the Old Testament can afford to dispense with a first-hand knowledge in Arabic. The pages of any critical commentary on the Old Testament will illustrate the debt of the Biblical exegesis owes to Arabic.[5]
It turns out that the same tradition which Katz addressed as 'bogus' result in the exegesis of his own scriptures, the Old Testament.

Since Christianity did not have anything like the 'tradition' to evaluate their own material, we see quite a lot of differences. Let us now examine the great tradition of the Church which Katz wants Muslims to trust and also to see which tradition is really bogus.

This document is divided into the following:
1. Church Tradition & The Bible

It must be made clear that there is nothing like one Bible with a set of books. The number of books in the Bible actually depend upon the Church one follows. Therefore if we follow the Church tradition we end with following Bibles. They differ in number of books in both the Old Testament and the New Testament:

Protestant Church
Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books ( Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.[6]
Roman Catholic Church
The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.[7]
Anglican Church
The Anglican church falls between the Catholic church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the Authorized or King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments.[8]
Greek Orthodox Church
The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.[9](See below)
Coptic Church
Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.[10]
Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church
Until 1959, the Ethiopic Church was under the jurisdiction of the head of Coptic Church. Hence it is not surprising that its canon of Scripture should parallel in some respects that of the Coptic Church.
The Ethiopic church has the largest Bible of all, and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader," according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.[11]
Bruce Metzger in his book The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development elaborates more on the books accepted by Ethiopic Church. The'broader' Canon of Ethiopic New Testament consists of the following thirty five books:
The four Gospels
Acts
The (seven) Catholic Epistles
The (fourteen) Epistles of Paul
The Book of Revelation
Sinodos (four sections)
Clement
The Book of the Covenant (two sections)
Didascalia
The contents of the last four titles in the list are as follows. The Sinodos is a book of church order, comprising an extensive collection of canons, prayers, and instructions attributed to Clement of Rome.
Clement (Qalementos) is a book in seven parts, communicated by Peter to Clement. It is not the Roman or Corinthian correspondence, nor one of the three parts of the Sinodos that are sometimes called 1, 2, and 3 Clement, nor part of the Syriac Octateuch of Clement.
The Book of Covenant (Mashafa kidan) is counted as two parts. The first part of sixty sections comprises chiefly material on church order; section 61 is a discourse of the Lord to his disciples after his resurrection, similar to the Testamentum Domini.
The Ethiopic Didascalia (Didesqelya) is a book of Church order in forty-three chapters, distinct from the Didascalia Apostolorum, but similar to books I-VII of so-called Apostlic Constitutions.[12]
Syriac Church
Let us also not forget the Syriac Churches which used to deal with Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian which was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Pe****ta. Pe****ta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament.
This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Pe****ta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (AD 431) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.[13]
Pe****ta is still followed by the Christians in the sourthern state of Kerala in India.
Still today the official lectionary followed by the Syrian Orthodox Church, with headquarters at Kottayam (Kerala), and the Chaldean Syriac Church, also known as the the Church of the East (Nestorian), with headquarters at Trichur (Kerala), presents lessons from only the twenty-two books of Pe****ta, the version to which appeal is made for the settlement of doctrinal questions.[14]
To make the issue clearer, we are here dealing with different number of books of New Testament followed by different churches all over the world. These are not the different translations of the Bible, the argument which Christian missionaries use to brush the problem under the carpet. Calling another church heretical is not going to work the problem out because there was no single book right from the beginning of Christianity which constituted the New Testament as we would see later, inshallah. The New Testament as we see today, depends upon the Church again(!), is a product of centuries worth of metamorphosis. Under "Canon of the New Testament" the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.[15]
So, the great Church tradition has not made up her mind on the Bible.
Now this would be big enough problem for the Christian missionaries to ruminate, inshallah. Let us now go into the issue of what the Apostolic Fathers refer to during their time.
2. Church Tradition & Apostolic Fathers

It is a frequent claim by the Christian missionaries that the Church Fathers believed that the New Testament was considered as 'inspired' Scripture.

Bruce M Metzger, a noted authority on the New Testament, analyzing the Apostolic Fathers viz., Clement of Rome, Ignatius, the Didache, fragments of Papias, Barnabas, Hermas of Rome, and the so-called 2 Clement concludes the following:
Clement Of Rome
By way of summary, we see that Clement's Bible is the Old Testament, to which he refers repeated as Scripture, quoting it with more or less exactness. Clement also makes occasional reference to certain words of Jesus; though they are authoritative to him, he does not appear to enquire how their authenticity is ensured. In two of the three instances that he speaks of remembering 'the words' of Christ or of the Lord Jesus, it seems that he has a written record in mind, but he does not call it a 'gospel'. He knows several of Paul's epistles, and values them highly for their content; the same can be said of the Epistle of the Hebrews with which he is well acquainted. Although these writings obviously possess for Clement considerable significance, he never refers to them as authoritative 'Scripture'.[16]
Ignatius Of Antioch
The upshot of all this is that the primary authority for Ignatius was the apostolic preaching about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, though it made little difference to him whether it was oral or written. He certainly knew a collection of Paul's epistles, including (in the order of frequency of his use of them) 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. It is probable that he knew the Gospels according to Matthew and John, and perhaps also Luke. There is no evidence that he regarded any of these Gospels or Epistles as 'Scripture'.[17]
The Didache
The Didache is a short manual or moral instruction and Church practice. The Church history writer Eusebius and Athanasius even considered to be on the fringe of the New Testament Canon[18]. Assigning the composition of Didache has ranged from first century to fourth century by the scholars, but most of them prefer to assign it in the first half of the second century[19]. Metzger summarizes the book as:
By way of summary, we can see from Didache that itinerant apostles and Prophets still find an important place in the life of the Church, but this authority is declining. Their activity is surrounded by all sorts of precautions and rests ultimately on the authority of the traditional teaching deriving from the Lord, whose manner they must exhibit: 'Not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the ways of the Lord. By their ways, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be distinguished' (xi. 8). The author refers to the gospel, but he cites only words of Jesus. This 'gospel', which is without doubt the Gospel according to Matthew, is not regarded as a necessary source from which the words of the Lord, with indispensable warrants, come to the faithful, but quite simply as a convenient collection of these words.[20]
Papias Of Heirapolis
By way of summary, Papias stands as a kind of bridge between the oral and written stages in the transmission of the gospel tradition. Although he professes to have a marked preference for the oral tradition, one nevertheless sees at work the causes that, more and more, would lead to the rejection of that form of tradition in favour of written gospels. On the whole, therefore, the testimony of Papias concerning the development of the canon of the New Testament is significant chiefly in reflecting the usage of the community in which devotion to oral tradition hindered the development of a clear idea of canonicity.[21]
Barnabas
Epistle of Barnabas is a theological tract. Both Clement of Alexandria and Origen valued the work highly and attributed its composition Barnabas, the companion and co-worker of the apostle Paul.
Metzger summarizes the position of Barnabas concerning the scripture as the following.
By way of summary, one can see that for Barnabas the Scriptures are what we call the Old Testament, including several books outside the Hebrew canon. Most of his contacts with the Synoptic traditions involve simple sentences that might well have been known to a Christian of that time from oral tradition. As against the single instance of his using the formula, 'it is written', in introducing the statement, 'Many are called, but few are chosen', must be placed his virtual neglect of the New Testament. If, on the other hand, he wrote shortly before or after 130, the focus of his subject matter would not make it necessary to do much quoting from New Testament books - if indeed he knew many of them. In either case he provides no evidence for the development of the New Testament canon.[22]
Polycarp Of Smyrna
By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hebrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John. As for the Gospels, he cites as sayings of the Lord phrases that we find in Matthew and Luke. With one exception, none of Polycarp's many allusions is cited as Scripture - and that exception, as we have seen, is held by some to have been mistakenly attributed to the Old Testament. At the same time Polycarp's mind is not only saturated with ideas and phrases derived from a considerable number of writings that later came to be regarded as New Testament Scriptures, but he also displays latent respect for these apostolic documents as possessing an authority lacking in other writings. Polycarp, as Grant remarks, 'clearly differentiates the apostolic age from his own time and, presumably for this reason, does not use the letters of Ignatius as authoritiesóeven though they "contain faith, endurance, and all the edification which pertains to our Lord" (xiii. 2)'.[23]
Hermas Of Rome
By way of summary, it is obvious that Hermas was not given to making quotations from literature; in fact, the only actual book anywhere named and quoted in the Shepherd ( Vis. ii. 3) is an obscure Jewish apocalypse known as the book of Eldad and Modat. Despite reminiscences from Matthew, Ephesians, and James, Hermas makes no comment that would lead us to think that he regarded them as canonical Scripture. From the testimony contained in the Shepherd, it can in any case be observed how uneven during the course of the second century was the development of the idea of the canon.[24]
The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement
This work is not the genuine work of Clement of Rome. This is regarded as an early Christian sermon. The style of this work is different from that of 1 Clement. Both date and composition of this work are difficult to determine. It was probably written around 150 CE. Metzger summarizes the contents of this work as:
By way of recapitulation, the unknown author of 2 Clement certainly knew and used Matthew and Luke, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. There is no trace of the Johannine Gospel or Epistles, or of the Book of Acts. And one can not say more than that he may have known Hebrews, James, and 1 Peter. Of the eleven times he cites words of Jesus, five are not to be found in the canonical Gospels. The presence of these latter, as well as the citation in xi. 2-4 of an apocryphal book of the Old Testament, introduced as 'the prophetic word', shows that our homilist's quotations of divinely authoritative words are not controlled by any strict canonical idea, even in relation to Old Testament writings.[25]
After studying the writings of all the Apostolic Fathers, Bruce Metzger concludes that:
For early Jewish Christians the Bible consisted of the Old Testament and some Jewish apocryphal literature. Along with this written authority went traditions, chiefly oral, of sayings attributed to Jesus. On the other hand, authors who belonged to the 'Hellenistic Wing' of the Church refer more frequently to writings that later came to be included in the New Testament. At the same time, however, they very rarely regarded such documents as 'Scripture'.
Furthermore, there was as yet no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not yet in the full sense canonical. Consequently, it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to ascertain which New Testament books were known to early Christian writers; our evidence does not become clear until the end of second century.[26]
We have evidence of the spotty development and treatment of the writings later regarded as the New Testament in the second and third centuries CE. Gradually written Gospels, and collections of epistles, different ones in different regions, became to be more highly regarded.

So for 200 years or so there was nothing like New Testament to begin with. The great Church tradition did not even bother to collect the 'Scriptures' between two covers!

3. Church Tradition & The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament
Now when the Church tradition finally started to make up her mind on compiling the New Testament various lists of books in the Canons of the Bible were drawn. Bruce Metzger gives the following list of the Canons of the Bible drawn at different times in the 'western' Church. Please note that we still do not have the great deal of idea about how many lists were drawn in the Eastern Churches such as Coptic and Ethiopic. The following are the canons drawn at various points of time in the Church history.
To complete the thoughts about how the New Testament evolved, a brief survey of early lists of the books of the New Testament is necessary. The list is taken from Appendix IV of Bruce Metzger's The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development[27].

The earliest exact reference to the 'complete' New Testament as we now know it was in the year 367 CE, in a letter by Athanasius. This did not settle the matter. Varying lists continued to be drawn up by different church authorities as can be seen from above.

The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the authority for the Canon and the interpretation of scripture, therefore the owner of the list of 27 books. Nevertheless, according to the
Catholic Encyclopedia, entry "Canon of NT" proclaims that 20 books of the New Testament are inherently worth more than the 7 deuterocanonical books (Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation), acknowledging that the authenticity or reliability of them had already been challenged by ancient Christian authorities.
The Catholic New Testament, as defined by the Council of Trent, does not differ, as regards the books contained, from that of all Christian bodies at present. Like the Old Testament, the New has its deuterocanonical books and portions of books, their canonicity having formerly been a subject of some controversy in the Church. These are for the entire books: the Epistle to the Hebrews, that of James, the Second of St. Peter, the Second and Third of John, Jude, and Apocalypse; giving seven in all as the number of the New Testament contested books. The formerly disputed passages are three: the closing section of St. Mark's Gospel, xvi, 9-20 about the apparitions of Christ after the Resurrection; the verses in Luke about the bloody sweat of Jesus, xxii, 43, 44; the Pericope Adulteræ, or narrative of the woman taken in adultery, St. John, vii, 53 to viii, 11. Since the Council of Trent it is not permitted for a Catholic to question the inspiration of these passages.[28]
We will deal more with the individual books (i.e., Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation) later, inshallah.

4. Church Tradition & 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books

Whatever this word 'inspiration' means in the Church tradition to select the books, it does not mean what it actually means. A small list of the following books which are not there in the present day New Testament were at once time considered 'inspired'. Going further in history as the concept of New Testament 'Canon' evolved many books were considered 'inspired' which we do not see in the Bibles of 20th century. A brief survey of those books would be considered here.

The Didache:
Several of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers were for a time regarded in some localities as authoritative. The Didache was used both by Clement of Alexandria and by Origen as Scripture, and there is evidence that during the following century it continued to be so regarded in Egypt.[29]
Epistle of Clement:
The text of the (First) Epistle of Clement is contained, along with a portion of the so-called Second Epistle of Clement, at the end of the fifth-century Codex Alexandrinus of the Greek Bible (the manuscript is defective at the end). Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all made use of the epistle. We know that about A.D. 170 it was customary to read 1 Clement in public services of worship at Corinth.[30]
Epistle of Barnabas:
The Epistle of Barnabas was for a time on the fringe of the canon. Clement of Alexandria regarded it as of sufficient importance to write a commentary on it in his Hypotyposes, now lost. Origen calls it 'catholic', a term that he elsewhere applies to 1 Peter and 1 John. It stands after the New Testament in the fourth-century Codex Sinaiticus of the Greek Bible.[31]
Shepherd of Hermas:
The Shepherd of Hermas was used as Scripture by Irenaeus, Tertullian (before his conversion to Montanism), Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, though according to Origen it was not generally read in church. The Muratorian Canon reflects the esteem in which the work was held at the time that list was compiled, but according to the unknown compiler, it might be read but not proclaimed as Scripture in church.[32]
Furthermore, Clement of Alexandria had a very 'open' canon, i.e., he did not mind using the materials of pagans, 'heretics' and other Christian literature.[33] It is worthwhile reminding here that we have already seen different set of books in Ethiopic and Coptic Church.

5. Church Tradition & Manuscripts

As much as there is a variation is the canons of the Bible as well as in its 'inspiration', it is reflected in the manuscripts too. Below is some material taken from
The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Under "Text, NT". Interestingly enough, this section starts with The Problem. Many Christian apologists prefer to brush this well-known problem under the carpet as if it does not exist!
THE PROBLEM. The NT is now known, whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek MSS alone. Every one of these handwritten copics differ from every other one. In addition to these Greek MSS, the NT has been preserved in more than ten thousand MSS of the early versions and in thousands of quotations of the Church Fathers. These MSS of the versions and quotations of the Church Fathers differ from one another just as widely as do the Greek MSS. Only a fraction of this great mass of material has been fully collated and carefully studied. Until this task is completed, the uncertainty regarding the text of the NT will remain.

It has been estimated that these MSS and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher. A study of 150 Greek MSS of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings. It is true, of course, that the addition of the readings from another 150 MSS of Luke would not add another 30,000 readings to the list. But each MS studied does add substantially to the list of variants. It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS tradition is wholly uniform.

Many thousands of these different readings are variants in orthography or grammar or style and however effect upon the meaning of the text. But there are many thousands which have a definite effect upon the meaning of the text. It is true that not one of these variant readings affects the substance of Christian dogma. It is equally true that many of them do have theological significance and were introduced into the text intentionally. It may not, e.g., affect the substance of Christian dogma to accept the reading "Jacob the father of Joseph, and Joseph (to whom the virgin Mary was betrothed) the father of Jesus who is called 'Christ'" (Matt. 1:16), as does the Sinaitic Syriac; but it gives rise to a theological problem.

It has been said that the great majority of the variant readings in the text of the NT arose before the books of the NT were canonized and that after those books were canonized, they were very carefully copied because they were scripture. This, however, is far from being the case.

It is true, of course, that many variants arose in the very earliest period. There is no reason to suppose, e.g., that the first person who ever made a copy of the autograph of thc Gospel of Luke did not change his copy to conform to the particular tradition with which he was familiar. But he was under no compulsion to do so. Once the Gospel of Luke had become scripture, however, the picture was changed completely. Then the copyist was under compulsion to change his copy, to correct it. Because it was scripture, it had to be right.
[34]
After reading all this, does not the Muslim position of the corruption of the Bible hold water? And of course, again which Bible manuscript is inspired?

Now we all know that none of the variants that are there in the Bible have a chain of narration or isnad. So it is very hard to say which one or ones is the true reading and the other the bogus one. So, futher on we read:
Many thousands of the variants which are found in the MSS of the NT were put there deliberately. They are not merely the result of error or of careless handling of the text. Many were created for theological or dogmatic reasons (even though they may not affect the substance of Christian dogma). It is because the books of the NT are religious books, sacred books, canonical books, that they were changed to conform to what the copyist believed to be the true reading. His interest was not in the "original reading but in the "true reading." This is precisely the attitude toward the NT which prevailed from the earliest times to the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the invention of printing. The thousands of Greek MSS, MSS of the versions, and quotations of the Church Fathers provide the source for our knowledge of the earliest or original text of the NT and of the history of the transmission of that text before the invention of printing.[34]
Now if you do not know what the "original reading" is, then there is no point talking about 'believing' in what is supposed to be the "original" reading. So, this is the great Christian Church tradition which cannot even produce two identical manuscripts! Furthermore on "original" reading one can say that since there are no original manuscripts, there is not point talking about "original" reading at all. This search for "original" reading would be a guess work or 'consensus'. Indeed the Acts of Apostles has earned the notoriety for the variant readings.
In fact no book of the NT gives evidence of so much verbal variation as does the Acts of Apostles. Besides the text represented in the oldest uncial Greek MSS, begin with the Codex Vaticanus, often called the Neutral Text and dating back to the second century AD, there is evidence either of a consistent alternative text equally old, or of a series of early miscellaneous variants, to which the name Western text is traditionally applied. The ancient authorities of the Western Text of Acts include only one Greek (or rather bilingual Greek and Latin) uncial MS, Codex Bezae of the fifth or sixth century. But the variants often have striking content and strong early support from Latin writers and Latin NT MSS. It now appears that while both the Neutral and Western texts were in circulation, the former is the more likely of the two to represent the original.[35]
Apart from the notorious variation, we also have the problem of which text is the original text. Since we do not know which one is original, the guess work in pressed into service. This is one such example of guess work. And how come guess work leads to truth?
We have already seen that the there is no original document of the Bible available to us to verify its inerrancy doctrine. Concerning the New Testament documents The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible confirms that:
The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and persihable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities.[36]
So, the Qur'an in this aspect is far more better placed than the Bible with all the Qiraa'a associated with it clearly listed with detailed chain of narrations going back to the Companions of the Prophet(P) who in turn learnt the Qur'an from the Prophet(P) himself.

6. Church Tradition & The Six 'Disputed' Books

As we have seen above that the books of Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude and Revelation had quite a dubious history of the entry into the canon, it is time that we have a cursory glance over their comparatively recent history.

Zwingli, at the Berne disputation of 1528, denied that Revelation was a book of the New Testament.
[37]

Martin Luther condemned the Epistle of James as worthless, an 'epistle of straw.' Furthermore, he denigrated Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation). He did not omit them from his German Bible, but drew a line in the table of contents, putting them on a lower level than the rest of the New Testament. In Prefaces to each of these books, Luther explains his doubts as to their apostolic as well as canonical authority.
[38]

The reformer known as Andreas Bodenstein of Karlstadt (1480-1541) divided the New Testament into three ranks of differing dignity. On the lowest level are the seven disputed books of James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation).
[39]
Oecolampadius in 1531 under Wurttemberg Confession declared that while all 27 books should be received, the Apocalypse (Revelation), James, Jude, 2 Peter 2 and 3 John should not be compared to the rest of the books.[40]
Early in his career, Erasmus (d. 1536) doubted that Paul was the author of Hebrews, and James of the epistle bearing the name. He also questioned the authorship of 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude. The style of Revelation precludes it from being written by the author of the Fourth Gospel.[41]
The same four books are labeled 'Apocrypha' in a Bible from Hamburg in 1596. In Sweden, beginning in 1618, the Gustavus Adolphus Bible labels the four dubious books as 'Apocryphal New Testament.' This arrangement lasted for more than a century.[42]
Conclusions

With all the gory details of the Church history and the Bible are out, with no clear cut indication of the Bible and its 'inspiration', why would any Muslim even bother to read it? And above all why should a Christian missionaries would push such a dubious set of scriptures down the throat of Muslims? And above all why call it injil?

cAbdullah Ibn Mascud, the well known Companion of the Prophet(P), is reported to have said:
Do not ask the ahl al-kitab about anything (in tafsir), for they cannot guide you and are themselves in error....[43]
If Christianity has got the biographies of the people who transmitted their New Testament or Old Testament as well as their traditions, it would compete with the Islamic science of hadîth. Alas, with no isnad, who is going to believe in their Bible and what is in it? And as the illustrious teacher of Imaam Bukhari had said:
"The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."
The lack of isnad and people drawing different Canons of the Bible seem to be the problem of people saying whatever they wished. Any one would claim anything and the Bible canon seems to reflect precisely that.
And look how bogus the missionary argument turned out to be!
A Few Questions
As Muslims we are obliged to ask:

  1. Which Bible or the books are inspired? Is it the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopic, Coptic or the Syriac? Please remember that they contain different number of books. It is just not the "oh! those are different translations".
  2. How can we trust the Church tradition when she herself cannot produce a reliable bunch of books worth calling a Bible?
  3. Why should we trust the Church which cannot even produce a set of manuscripts throughout the centuries which can be relied on instead of the guess work to find which reading is the original?
  4. How do we know that Jesus(P) said what is there in the Bible as there is no way of confirm how his words got transmitted? This is one of the major argument of Islamic traditionalists against the Older scriptures which deal with Israa'iliyat stuff. And they were rejected outright for very obvious reasons.
And if Christian missionaries cannot answer these question, there is no point calling the Bible as a reliable document. Therefore, an unreliable document is worth not calling a 'Scripture'.
Other Articles Related To The Textual Reliability Of The Bible Islamic Awareness
arrow-1.gif
Bible
arrow-1.gif
Text
arrow-1.gif
Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible



dummy-1.gif
References
[1] Suhaib Hasan, An Introduction To The Science Of Hadîth, 1995, Darussalam Publishers, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, p. 11.
[2] Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105.
[3] W Montgomery Watt, What Is Islam?, 1968, Longman, Green and Co. Ltd., pp. 124-125.
[4] Henry Malter, Saadia Gaon: His Life And Works, 1921, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, pp. 39-40.
[5] Alfred Guillaume, The Legacy Of Islam, 1931, Oxford, p. ix.
[6] Bruce M Metzger & Michael D Coogan (Ed.), Oxford Companion To The Bible, 1993, Oxford University Press, Oxford & New York, pp. 79 (Under 'Bible').
[7] Ibid.
[8] Ibid.
[9] Ibid.
[10] Bruce M Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, 1997, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 225.
[11] Metzger, Oxford Companion To The Bible, Op.Cit, p. 79.
[12] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 227-228.
[13] Ibid., p. 219.
[14] Ibid., p. 220.
[15] The Catholic EncyclopediaOnline Edition.
[16] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 43.
[17] Ibid., p. 49.
[18] Ibid., p. 49.
[19] Ibid., p. 50.
[20] Ibid., p. 51.
[21] Ibid., pp. 55-56.
[22] Ibid., pp. 58-59.
[23] Ibid., pp. 62-63.
[24] Ibid., p. 67.
[25] Ibid., pp. 71-72.
[26] Ibid., pp. 72-73.
[27] Ibid., pp. 305-315.
[28] The Catholic EncyclopediaOnline Edition.
[29] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 187-188.
[30] Ibid., p. 188.
[31] Ibid.
[32] Ibid.
[33] Ibid., pp.130-135.
[34] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 4, 1962 (1996 Print), Abingdon Press, Nashville, pp. 594-595 (Under Text, NT).
[35] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 41 (Under "Acts of the Apostles").
[36] Ibid., p. 599 (Under "Text, NT').
[37] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 273.
[38] Ibid., p. 243.
[39] Ibid., pp. 241-242.
[40] Ibid., p. 244.
[41] Ibid., p. 241.
[42] Ibid., pp. 244-245.
[43] Ahmad von Denffer, cUlûm al-Qur'an, 1994, The Islamic Foundation, p. 134.
Back To Index


do you find this an exercise in futility? I find you ignorant of basic history, and basic tenets of other people's religion.. what is it exactly that you are hoping to accomplish? to hammer those concepts in with every repeated post?

all the best!
 
Last edited:
priesthood is something of a christian invention, who seek intercession from anything under the sun other than God!

So you had no idea that the Jews had a divinely instituted priesthood?....

You'd have to establish authenticity of your bible

Take it from an agnostic perspective. If I want to learn about Jesus teachings, do I turn to a collection of writings dated 20-60 years after his death, written by people who knew him either directly or indirectly... or do I turn to a book written 500 years later, composed by a self proclaimed prophet who lived outside the time, culture, and region of Jesus? To me the answer is obvious, and it's probably why you don't see too many secular scholars consulting the Quran when studying Jesus.

I have already told you, your brand of Christianity has nothing to do with the original message, I fail to see which part of that is hard for you to understand?

You fail to see because you've presumed certain things to be true out of faith. You presume that Jesus was just an ordinary man, that his followers were Jews who kept the law, believed in his virgin birth, but knew he wasn't crucified. The problem is such a group never existed, so your idea of "original Christianity" is something that does not exist historically. For us not bound by a text written 500 years after Jesus, we turn to the earliest sources we have, and they tell a very different story.

Those who leave your fairy tales behind and embrace Islam

Some followers of Muhammad's Sunnah realize being muslim requires being Christian.

Wa salaam,
Sojourn
 
Any work that was translated was really courtesy of Muslims, who have not only taken the works of the ancient but perfected and corrected its mistakes.

I suppose if "correction" is taken to mean a wholesale rejection of anything foreign, then yes. And just as an aside, Muslim philosophers such as Averroes and Avicenna would have been executed had it not been for the favor of the Sultans that protected them.

I find you ignorant of basic history, and basic tenets of other people's religion..

This coming from someone who doesn't know the Jews had a priesthood...

And despite your lengthy quote of Islamic-awareness, not secular scholar or historian would accept the Islamic account of anything related to Jesus, and this includes the "appearance" of a crucifixion while Jesus was whisked away into heaven.
 
btw thomas acquinas was an apprentice to a Muslim scholar

If you're being truthful you can tell us the name of the Muslim Scholar that taught St Thomas.

isn't it amazing how convenient that you should leave that out.. even the best that your world has produced owes a great deal of its debt to Islam..

I didn't leave it out. St Thomas was a Medieval Christian, and he studied the works of Aristotle and anyone who wrote about him, and this included Jewish, Muslim, and other Christian thinkers. That is precisely the enlightenment of the Medievals, who did not shy away from thought that was foreign.

you should read more often you know before you write

Apply that advice to yourself.
 
So you had no idea that the Jews had a divinely instituted priesthood?....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen#cite_note-18 The majority of Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews consider all rules and ceremonies regarding the priesthood to be outdated. Many consider it to be anti-egalitarian, and thus discriminatory against Jews who are not Kohanim. Therefore the honors given to the Kohen during the Torah reading and in the performance of the Priestly Blessing are not observed..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen

Take it from an agnostic perspective. If I want to learn about Jesus teachings, do I turn to a collection of writings dated 20-60 years after his death, written by people who knew him either directly or indirectly... or do I turn to a book written 500 years later, composed by a self proclaimed prophet who lived outside the time, culture, and region of Jesus? To me the answer is obvious, and it's probably why you don't see too many secular scholars consulting the Quran when studying Jesus.
That is a good question indeed given that the epistle of James Jesus' very brother where his human nature if defined has been excluded from your church teachings in favor or books written by nameless scribes some 300 yrs later! although I enjoy how the span of time gets shorter and shorter with each subsequent post.. also ironically for books written right after his alleged crucifixion you can't get the four of them to agree... so I rather think the answer is obvious.. it isn't about the date, rather the source of information!


You fail to see because you've presumed certain things to be true out of faith. You presume that Jesus was just an ordinary man, that his followers were Jews who kept the law, believed in his virgin birth, but knew he wasn't crucified. The problem is such a group never existed, so your idea of "original Christianity" is something that does not exist historically. For us not bound by a text written 500 years after Jesus, we turn to the earliest sources we have, and they tell a very different story.
Such groups indeed existed and as such mentioned in the Quran.. and in fact in your very credible books which never contradict each other we find:

NIV©He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."NAS©But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."ISV©But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."GWT©Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."KJVBut he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.AKJBut he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.ASVBut he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.BBEBut he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.DRBAnd he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel. DBYBut he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.ERVBut he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.WBSBut he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.WEY"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.WEBBut he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."YLT and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

you can't really be the god of mankind and by same token be sent to a select few who desired your death!

Some followers of Muhammad's Sunnah realize being muslim requires being Christian.

Wa salaam,
Sojourn

I doubt that very much!

all the best
 
If you're being truthful you can tell us the name of the Muslim Scholar that taught St Thomas.
I don't actually remember his name, but I knew that he was influenced by the works of Muslim which enabled my feeble search to yield the results you saw above, just like I found you from the web the works of the Muslim scholar whose work has influenced him, I am sure if refined the search you'll find the one to whom he was an actual apprentice.


I didn't leave it out. St Thomas was a Medieval Christian, and he studied the works of Aristotle and anyone who wrote about him, and this included Jewish, Muslim, and other Christian thinkers. That is precisely the enlightenment of the Medievals, who did not shy away from thought that was foreign.
You found a singular man and augmented his work, though his work relied greatly on the works of those you despise and just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together, even in spite of frank persecution of your churches to ban Islamic philosophy, are you merely a hypocrite or have selective memory loss?


Apply that advice to yourself.

I am not the one making an ass of myself on every post and then pretending I didn't write!

all the best
 
The majority of Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews consider all rules and ceremonies regarding the priesthood to be outdated. Many consider it to be anti-egalitarian, and thus discriminatory against Jews who are not Kohanim. Therefore the honors given to the Kohen during the Torah reading and in the performance of the Priestly Blessing are not observed..

I see you're reduced to quoting the opinions of reformed Jews, how telling. But please note the quote you provide does not deny the fact that the Jews had a priesthood.

"Bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water... Anoint them just as you anointed their father, so they may serve me as priests. Their anointing will be to a priesthood that will continue for all generations to come." Moses did everything just as the LORD commanded him."
Exodus 40:12-16

That is a good question indeed given that the epistle of James Jesus' very brother where his human nature if defined has been excluded from your church teachings in favor or books written by nameless scribes some 300 yrs later!

Are you not aware the Epistle of James is part of the New Testament?

This is the title James gave to Jesus:

"My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory."

James 2:1

also ironically for books written right after his alleged crucifixion you can't get the four of them to agree... so I rather think the answer is obvious.. it isn't about the date, rather the source of information!

So if one companion witnessed 300 soldiers being quenched by water miraculously flowing through Muhammad's hands, but another only saw 80 soldiers quenched, that means the event never happened?
Such groups indeed existed and as such mentioned in the Quran

Name me the historical group of early Christians that believed Jesus to be an ordinary man, had a virgin birth, and was not crucified.

and in fact in your very credible books which never contradict each other we find:
NIV©He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Thank you for building a case off a selective quote. The answer is a matter of chronology.That is what He said at the *start* of of Mission, since He came first to the lost sheep of Israel. This is what He said at His resurrection:

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Matthew 28: 19-20
I doubt that very much!

You doubt what you imagine us to believe.
 
I don't actually remember his name

You don't remember because there was no Muslim scholar that taught St Thomas.
You found a singular man and augmented his work, though his work relied greatly on the works of those you despise

Who is this singular man? And I don't despise anyone, despite our disagreements.

and just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together,

You have a habit for being careless with words, and even making things up. Why don't you quote me where I said no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together.

I am not the one making an ass of myself on every post and then pretending I didn't write!

Apparently you are.
 
I see you're reduced to quoting the opinions of reformed Jews, how telling. But please note the quote you provide does not deny the fact that the Jews had a priesthood.

"Bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water... Anoint them just as you anointed their father, so they may serve me as priests. Their anointing will be to a priesthood that will continue for all generations to come." Moses did everything just as the LORD commanded him."
Exodus 40:12-16
I can hardly take credit for other people's beliefs that are publicly denounced!

Are you not aware the Epistle of James is part of the New Testament?

This is the title James gave to Jesus:

"My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory."

James 2:1
Rather selectively a part of the NT..

have a look:

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...-palestine-say-jesus-prophet.html#post1227242



So if one companion witnessed 300 soldiers being quenched by water miraculously flowing through Muhammad's hands, but another only saw 80 soldiers quenched, that means the event never happened?
Bring the hadith from a reputable Muslim site, not from your stealth crusade, I fear your words are worth as much as two dollar bill!

Name me the historical group of early Christians that believed Jesus to be an ordinary man, had a virgin birth, and was not crucified.
Enjoy!


Barnabas was a Jew born in Cyrus. His name was Joses, and due to his devotion to the cause of Jesus, the other apostles had given him the surname of Barnabas; this term is variously translated as "Son of Consolation" or "Son of Exhortation".
He was a successful preacher with a magnetic personality. Any one tormented by the clash of creeds found solace and peace in his company. His eminence as a man who had been close to Jesus had made him a prominent member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had gathered together after the disappearance of Jesus. They observed the Law of the Prophets, which Jesus had come, "not to destroy but, to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). They continued to live as Jews and practiced what Jesus had taught them. That Christianity could ever be regarded as a new religion did not occur to any of them. They were devout and practicing Jews distinguished from their neighbours only by their faith in the message of Jesus.
In the beginning they did not organise themselves as a separate sect and did not have a synagogue of their own. There was nothing in the message of Jesus, as understood by them, to necessitate a break with Judaism. However, they incurred the enmity of the vested interests among the Jewish higher echelon. The conflict between the Jews and the followers of Jesus was started by the Jews because they felt that the Christians would undermine their authority.
ACTS 12: 25
"And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark."

ACTS 13: 1 and 2
"Now there was in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers, as Barnabas, and Simeon, that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrach, and Saul. "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said: Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

ACTS 14:11 to 15
"And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia. The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. "And they called Barnabas Jupiter, and Paul Mercurius. "Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

"Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out.
"And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are thereon."
The gulf progressively began to widen. During the siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Christians left the city; and refused to take part in the Bar Coachaba rebellion in 132 A.D. These two events brought to the surface the difference between the Christians and the Jews.
The question of the origin of Jesus, his nature and relation to God, which later became so important, was not raised among these early disciples. That Jesus was a man supernaturally endowed by God was accepted without question. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view. According to Aristides, one of the earliest apologists, the worship of the early Christians was more purely monotheistic even than of the Jews.
With the conversion of Paul a new period opened in Christian Theology. Paul's theology was based on his personal experience interpreted in the light of contemporary Greek thought. The theory of redemption was the child of his brain, a belief entirely unknown to the disciples of Jesus. Paul's theory involved the deification of Jesus.
The Pauline period in the history of the Christian Church saw a change of scene and principles. In place of the disciples, who had sat at the feet of Jesus, a new figure, who had not known Jesus, had come to the forefront. In place of Palestine, the Roman Empire became the scene of Christian activity. Instead of being a mere sect of Judaism, Christianity not only became independent of Judaism but also became independent of Jesus himself.
Paul was a Jewish inhabitant of Tarsus. He had spent a long time in Rome and was a Roman citizen. He realised the strong hold which the Roman religion had on the masses. The intellectuals were under the influence of Plato and Aristotle. Paul seems to have felt that it would not be possible to convert the masses in the Roman Empire without making mutual adjustments. But his practical wisdom was not acceptable to those who had seen and heard Jesus. However, in spite of their difference, they decided to work together for the common cause.
As recorded in the Acts, Barnabas represented those who had become personal disciples of Jesus, and Paul co-operated with them for some time. But finally they fell out. Paul wanted to give up the Commandments given through Moses about things to eat; he wanted to give up the Commandment given through Abraham regarding circumcision. Barnabas and the other personal disciples disagreed. The following sentences in the Acts give a hint of the rift:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." "When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputations with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question" (Acts 14:1 and 2).
After this rift, there was a parting of the ways. In the Acts, Barnabas disappears after the rift, because the recording of the acts of the Apostles was done by the followers of Paul. Because of Paul's compromise with Roman beliefs and legends, Pauline Christians grew in number and grew in strength. A stage was later reached when kings were used as pawns to further the ends of the Church.
The followers of Barnabas never developed a central organization. Yet due to the devotion of their leaders their number increased very fast. These Christians incurred the wrath of the Church and systematic effort was made to destroy them and to obliterate all traces of their existence including books and churches. The lesson of history, however, is that it is very difficult to destroy faith by force. Their lack of organization became a source of strength because it was not so easy to pick them up one by one.
Modern research has brought to light odd facts about these Christians. They are like the crests of waves and looking at them one can visualise a whole body of ocean not yet visible.
We notice that up to the 4th century A.D. there existed a sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world, He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him. Paul of Samasata was a Bishop of Antioch. He was of the view that Christ was not God but a man and a prophet. He differed only in degree from prophets who came before him and that God could not have become man substantially.
Then we come across another Bishop of Antioch viz Lucian. As a Bishop his reputation for sanctity was not less than his fame as a scholar. He came down strongly against the belief of Trinity. He deleted all mention of Trinity from the Bible as he believed it to be a later interpolation not found in the earlier Gospels. He was martyred in 312 A.D.
Next we come to the famous disciple of Lucian viz Arius (250-336 A.D.) He was a Libyan by birth. Peter Bishop of Alexandria ordained him a Deacon but later excommunicated him. Achilles the successor of Peter again ordained Arius as priest. Alexander the next Bishop of Alexandria once again excommunicated him. Arius however had gathered such a large following that he became a headache for the Church. If kept out of Church he could be a great danger to her but he could not be accommodated within the Church as he wanted to establish the unity and simplicity of the Eternal God. He believed that how so ever much Christ may surpass other created beings he himself was not of the same substance as God. He was as human being as any other man. The teaching of Arius spread like wild fire and shook the very foundation of the Pauline Church. The controversy that was simmering for three hundred years suddenly became a conflagration. No man dared to oppose the organized Church but Arius did, and remained a headache for her whether he was ordained a priest or was excommunicated. During this time two events changed the history of Europe.
Emperor Constantine brought a greater part of Europe under his rule and secondly he began to support the Christians without accepting Christianity. To the soldier prince the different creeds within the Christian faith were very confusing. In the Imperial Palace itself the controversy was raging not less fiercely. It appears that perhaps the Queen Mother was inclined towards Pauline Christianity while his sister Princess Constantina was a disciple of Arius. The Emperor was wavering between the two faiths. As an administrator he was interested only in uniting all the Christians within one Church.
It was at this time that the conflict between Arius and Bishop Alexander became so widespread and so violent that it became a law and order problem. So the Emperor anxious to maintain peace in the newly unified Europe had to intervene.
In 325 A.D. a meeting of all denominations of Christianity was called at Nicea (Now Isnik, a village). Bishop Alexander was not able to attend the conference and he deputed his lieutenant Athanasius, who subsequently succeeded Alexander as Bishop of Alexandria.
The conference had many prolonged sessions. Emperor Constantine could not grasp the full implications of the ecclesiastical confrontation, but he was very clear in his mind that for maintaining peace in his realm the support and cooperation of the Church was necessary. Accordingly he threw his weight behind Athanasius and banished Arius from the realm. Thus the belief of Trinity became the official religion of the empire. Fearful massacre of Christians who did not believe in Trinity followed. It became a penal offense to possess a Bible not authorized by the Church and according to some estimates as many as 270 different versions of the Bible were burnt. Princess Constantina was not happy at the turn of events. The Emperor ultimately was persuaded to accept the faith of the men he killed. The result was that Arius was called back in 346. The day Arius was scheduled to visit the Cathedral of Constantinople in triumph, he died suddenly. The Church called it a miracle. The Emperor knew it was a murder. He banished Athanasius and two other Bishops. The Emperor then formally accepted Christianity and was baptized by an Arian Bishop. Thus Monotheism became the official religion. Constantine died in 337. The next Emperor Constantanius also accepted the faith of Arius. In 341 a conference was held in Antioch and Monotheism was accepted as a correct interpretation of Christian faith. This view was confirmed by another Council held in Sirmium in 351. As a result Arianism was accepted by an overwhelming majority of Christians. St. Jerome wrote in 359 that 'the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian'.
In this context the next important figure is that of Pope Honorius. A contemporary of Prophet Mohammed (peace be on him) he saw the rising tide of Islam whose tenets very much resembled those of Arius. As the mutual killings of Christians was still fresh in his memory he perhaps thought of finding a via media between Islam and Christianity. In his letters he began to support the doctrine of 'one mind', because if God has three independent minds the result would be chaos. The logical conclusion pointed to the belief in the existence of one God. This doctrine was not officially challenged for about half a century. Pope Honorius died in October 638. In 680, i.e. 42 years after his death, a council was held in Constantinople where Pope Honorius was anathematized. This event is unique in the history of Papacy when a Pope was denounced by a succeeding Pope and the Church.
The next two personalities of this faith that deserve mention were members of the same family. L. F. M. Sozzini (1525- 1565) was native of Siena. In 1547 he came under the influence of Camillo a Sicilian mystic. His fame spread in Switzerland He challenged Calvin on the doctrine of Trinity. He amplified the doctrine of Arius, denied the divinity of Christ and repudiated the doctrine of original sin and atonement. The object of adoration according to him could only be the one and only one God. He was followed by his nephew F. P. Sozzini (1539- 1604). In 1562 he published a work on St. John's Gospel denying the divinity of Jesus. In 1578 he went to Klausonburg in Transylvania whose ruler John Sigisumud was against the doctrine of Trinity. Here Bishop Francis David (1510-1579) was fiercely anti-Trinitarian. This led to the formation of a sect known as Racovian Catechism. It derives its name from Racow in Poland. This city became the stronghold of the faith of Arius.
Among the present-day Christians a large number of men and women still believe in one God. They are not always vocal. Due to the crushing power of the Churches they cannot express themselves and there is not much communication between them.
In the end it will be of interest to quote Athanasius the champion of Trinity. He says that whenever he forced his understanding to meditate on the divinity of Jesus his toilsome and unavailing efforts recoil on themselves, that the more he wrote the less capable was he of expressing his thoughts. At another place he pronounces his creed as:- There are not three but "ONE GOD".



Thank you for building a case off a selective quote. The answer is a matter of chronology.That is what He said at the *start* of of Mission, since He came first to the lost sheep of Israel. This is what He said at His resurrection:
I rather think that is exactly what you do, selectively quote:

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Matthew 28: 19-20
a nice pious forgery, which am I to believe from your resilient bibles as per the actual title of this thread? I fear any subtraction or addendum is rather cementing the very point you are arguing against!

You doubt what you imagine us to believe.
Rather you can't hold a solid story together.. but I do like your moxie.. you need to overcompensate somehow and this is a good a method as any!

all the best
 
You don't remember because there was no Muslim scholar that taught St Thomas.
A few paragraphs ago, Muslims had no interest in philosophy and as the thread evolved not only have you learned that, it was the very thing fought against by papal order, and another post later you've learned that your Thomas 'the only fellow you could name' was actually influenced by Islamic philosophy rather than Greek ones.. I understand you like it all by a metered dose, it is too much too take in all at once, after all the very crux of your argument is crumbling before everyone's eye.. rather I'll leave it to everyone's discretion to decide who is telling the truth!

Who is this singular man? And I don't despise anyone, despite our disagreements.
see above, as for whether or not you do or don't despise, again, something to be left to public discernment, your delusory words are then incongruous with your personal affect, we can only work with the bull **** you spew here not what you feel on the inside.. Either way, understand please that it makes no difference to me whatsoever.


You have a habit for being careless with words, and even making things up. Why don't you quote me where I said no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together.

Historically Christians were the ones who appreciated reason and philosophy, while Muslims largely rejected it (Compare and contrast Thomas Aquinas to Al-Ghazzali.)

come on, it wasn't one page ago, did you want me to re-quote is so you can tell me what you really meant by it as if there are multiple meanings?

please man give me a break, I really have no time to descend to word play with you!

Apparently you are.

No, it really is just you!

feel free to comment on the large excerpts I have quoted as well not just selective replies to matters you feel you can spin around and pretty up!

all the best
 
Bring the hadith from a reputable Muslim site, not from your stealth crusade, I fear your words are worth as much as two dollar bill!

You're missing the point. There are differences among Sahih hadith, but that doesn't mean the event described never happened.


Enjoy!

Barnabas was a Jew born in Cyrus...

Your lengthy quote doesn't answer the question, unless you're trying to suggest the followers of Barnabas didn't believe Jesus was crucified? If that's what you're claiming you better bring your proof.

a nice pious forgery, which am I to believe from your resilient bibles as per the actual title of this thread? I fear any subtraction or addendum is rather cementing the very point you are arguing against!

It's only a pious forgery because it contradicts your view. The fact is if Jesus never made such a command, the Apostles would have never ventured outside of Judea to preach the Gospel.

Rather you can't hold a solid story together.. but I do like your moxie.. you need to overcompensate somehow and this is a good a method as any!

You doubt what you imagine us to believe. You doubted the priesthood because you imagined it a Christian invention. You did not even know that from Moses to the time of Jesus, the Jews had a Divinely instituted Priesthood, and if you did not know that basic element of Old Testament Judaism, it is no wonder you feel confident in your deen.
 
You're missing the point. There are differences among Sahih hadith, but that doesn't mean the event described never happened.
What exactly is your point?


Your lengthy quote doesn't answer the question, unless you're trying to suggest the followers of Barnabas didn't believe Jesus was crucified? If that's what you're claiming you better bring your proof.
I don't think you read it at all, you asked for one group that didn't worship Jesus and if you'd actually read it, you'd have come across this:

up to the 4th century A.D. there existed a sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world, He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him!
You can't keep making requests and then bury your head in the sand when presented with them!



It's only a pious forgery because it contradicts your view. The fact is if Jesus never made such a command, the Apostles would have never ventured outside of Judea to preach the Gospel.
Again, which is correct, that he was only sent to the Jews as per your bible or that he is sent for all, also as per your bible?



You doubt what you imagine us to believe. You doubted the priesthood because you imagined it a Christian invention. You did not even know that from Moses to the time of Jesus, the Jews had a Divinely instituted Priesthood, and if you did not know that basic element of Old Testament Judaism, it is no wonder you feel confident in your deen.
rather I knew from jews that I went to under grad with, that is it something that many of them denounce.. the only person retracting comments here is you.. either way, I really see no point, given that the Jews would rather stay Jewish, in other words, what you think Christianity fulfilled, they find rather laughable. We also see that jesus was supposed to enforce their laws not do away with them, and it seems that he has done away with said laws not directly but through charlatans like paul, and when he died apparently even the apostles were confused about their purpose after his departure, you have peter denouncing him as per Jesus' prediction and three times, do these look like the sort of credible people that should go out there and preach messages to the gentiles?

Again, just give me a break, I have no interest in spending my weekend in replies back to asinine stories and allegations!

all the best
 
Does anybody have anything more to say about the authenticity of the Bible? If not, it may be time to close this thread. :)
 
A few paragraphs ago, Muslims had no interest in philosophy and as the thread evolved not only have you learned that,

You originally claimed:
"just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together"

I never said such a thing and asked you to quote me (which you did not do.) Instead you now claim I said Muslims had no interest in philosophy, which I never said. I suppose it's futile to ask you to quote me saying either of statement to prove you're not a careless reader?

and another post later you've learned that your Thomas 'the only fellow you could name'

More could be named, but if you knew anything about St Thomas Aquinas you would understand why his name alone more than suffices.

was actually influenced by Islamic philosophy rather than Greek ones..

St Thomas like any good scholar was open to reading the opinions of other scholars, whether they were Jews, Muslims, or other Christians. This doesn't mean he agreed with everything other scholars proposed, Averroes and Avicenna did make philosophical errors, and they proposed things contrary to Christian faith.
rather I'll leave it to everyone's discretion to decide who is telling the truth!

Ameen.
see above, as for whether or not you do or don't despise, again, something to be left to public discernment, your delusory words are then incongruous with your personal affect, we can only work with the bull **** you spew here

This coming from a person who doesn't even know the basics of Judaism and Christianity, but imagines a continuum exists.

come on, it wasn't one page ago, did you want me to re-quote is so you can tell me what you really meant by it as if there are multiple meanings?

Yes, and what do you not understand? That individual Muslims can be interested in philosophy despite vocal leaders and the community as a whole rejecting it? Do you even know the part Al-Ghazzali played in all of this?
 
Y
ou originally claimed:
"just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together"

I never said such a thing and asked you to quote me (which you did not do.) Instead you now claim I said Muslims had no interest in philosophy, which I never said. I suppose it's futile to ask you to quote me saying either of statement to prove you're not a careless reader?
Perhaps you should browse your thesaurus, before writing, just to spare yourself the watered down related derivative with each subsequent post, you are one dynamo of a hyperbole!
More could be named, but if you knew anything about St Thomas Aquinas you would understand why his name alone more than suffices.
Oh yes, all those so great they need not be mentioned! I got you! ;D


St Thomas like any good scholar was open to reading the opinions of other scholars, whether they were Jews, Muslims, or other Christians. This doesn't mean he agreed with everything other scholars proposed, Averroes and Avicenna did make philosophical errors, and they proposed things contrary to Christian faith.
A good scholar is a pioneer not of equivocal position.
making a mistake and having a different point of view are two different things, again, I'd work on my definitions before I make my next declamatory statement!


This coming from a person who doesn't even know the basics of Judaism and Christianity, but imagines a continuum exists.
And I ask you, if christianity fulfilled the laws of Judaism why are there still Jews in the world? It is really relatively simple. and for the last I'd refrain from speaking on behalf of the Jews as far as their religion is concerned.



Yes, and what do you not understand? That individual Muslims can be interested in philosophy despite vocal leaders and the community as a whole rejecting it? Do you even know the part Al-Ghazzali played in all of this?
It is rather the other way around, One individual christian was interested in borrowed philosophy and at the end of the day gained nothing as he still died a paganist!

all the best
 
What exactly is your point?

The point is even if all aspects surrounding an event don't agree, it doesn't mean the event never occurred. If this was the case, we can throw away a tremendous amount of sahih hadith.

I don't think you read it at all, you asked for one group that didn't worship Jesus and if you'd actually read it, you'd have come across this:

So you think the Hypisistarians were a Christian sect? Wow. Why don't save yourself the trouble of easily being refuted by simply reading more about something before posting.
Again, which is correct, that he was only sent to the Jews as per your bible or that he is sent for all, also as per your bible?

Are you really having a hard time understanding this? At the beginning of Jesus' message He sent his Apostles to the Jews, they were the first to receive the Gospel, but the message was meant for all mankind. At the close of His public mission, prior to His ascension, He commanded His apostles to preach to the whole world.

rather I knew from jews that I went to under grad with, that is it something that many of them denounce.. the only person retracting comments here is you..

Again, denouncing is not the same as it never existing. The Aaronite and Levitical Priesthood came into existence by Divine command. Any Jew who denounces it doesn't follow the Torah.

We also see that jesus was supposed to enforce their laws not do away with them,

At the start of Jesus' mission the Mosaic law was still in effect, but it would only last "until everything was accomplished."

and it seems that he has done away with said laws not directly but through charlatans like paul,

Like so many things you are ignorant of, you're unaware it was the Apostles as a community who decided that Gentiles need not embrace Judaic law. I know Muslims like to say Paul was some renegade preacher, but any study of the man shows such an opinion is untenable.

and when he died apparently even the apostles were confused about their purpose after his departure,

Where do you get this from? And Paul was martyred, btw, most people would not die for a lie.

you have peter denouncing him as per Jesus' prediction and three times, do these look like the sort of credible people that should go out there and preach messages to the gentiles?

They showed weakness during the ministry of Christ, but it is God who preserves his teaching, and Christ promised to be with His Church till the end of the world. Many of the Apostles and early Christians suffered the most excruciating forms of death, only the Grace of God could give them the strength to suffer as they did. Peter for example was condemned to crucifixion, but he felt so unworthy to die as Christ did, that he requested he be crucified upside down.


Wa salaam
 
Perhaps you should browse your thesaurus, before writing...

In other words, you can't prove you're not a careless reader.

A good scholar is a pioneer not of equivocal position.
making a mistake and having a different point of view are two different things, again, I'd work on my definitions before I make my next declamatory statement!

The point is the Scholastics took what was useful and left what was wrong. They didn't simply mirror everything they read. St Thomas was not an Averroist, but he was familiar with Averroes' writings, there's a difference.
And I ask you, if christianity fulfilled the laws of Judaism why are there still Jews in the world? It is really relatively simple.

For the same reason why you believe there are Jews and Christians despite Muhammad being the seal of prophethood.

and for the last I'd refrain from speaking on behalf of the Jews as far as their religion is concerned.

For Christians its not haram or makrooh to read the previous inspired works, and that is what I'm commenting on. I'm not making an outrageous claim by saying the Priesthood was an integral part to Old Testament Judaism, any more than saying directing salat towards Mecca is integral to Islam.
It is rather the other way around, One individual christian was interested in borrowed philosophy and at the end of the day gained nothing as he still died a paganist!

You like to comment on things you know little about, oh well... shrugs

all the best

Wa salaam
 
Last edited:
The point is even if all aspects surrounding an event don't agree, it doesn't mean the event never occurred. If this was the case, we can throw away a tremendous amount of sahih hadith.

How many times must I write this out?
Bring your allegations from a reputable Islamic site, I am not interested in your opinion!

So you think the Hypisistarians were a Christian sect? Wow. Why don't save yourself the trouble of easily being refuted by simply reading more about something before posting.
I have indeed read about them.. what is your point?


Are you really having a hard time understanding this? At the beginning of Jesus' message He sent his Apostles to the Jews, they were the first to receive the Gospel, but the message was meant for all mankind. At the close of His public mission, prior to His ascension, He commanded His apostles to preach to the whole world.
There is nothing to understand, it isn't a mathematical equation, there is a confirmation per your bible that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and a pious addendum to go after the gentiles and corrupt them into man worship too.The Jews didn't buy it, but the gentiles substituted Hercules and Zeus for Jesus and God, although admittedly before they didn't have to have the stretch that they were one in the same.. got to keep their pagan rituals and holidays, so it wasn't all that difficult to change except to completely subdue their logic, and let go of whatever enlightenment their complete paganism afforded them for the stringent absurdity of Christianity! as a result they experienced their darkest period of history, until they realized that religion and politics don't mix and then shelved the man/god fiasco on some shelf to be visited like a neat relic on occasion two or three times a year!

Again, denouncing is not the same as it never existing. The Aaronite and Levitical Priesthood came into existence by Divine command. Any Jew who denounces it doesn't follow the Torah.
I can be game with that.. say they keep the laws of the Torah, how does this reconcile with the fact that they don't buy into your religion? still no answer for that?


At the start of Jesus' mission the Mosaic law was still in effect, but it would only last "until everything was accomplished."
what is everything? denouncing the commandments and a carte Blanche to sin on the account that god ate the sins in advance?

Like so many things you are ignorant of, you're unaware it was the Apostles as a community who decided that Gentiles need not embrace Judaic law. I know Muslims like to say Paul was some renegade preacher, but any study of the man shows such an opinion is untenable.
I don't need to be versed in your religion, it doesn't offer me anything, and it doesn't change the fact of the matter, such events occurred and said events aren't in concert with the laws of the OT nor does it enforce or fulfill them. You don't a PhD in bull **** to figure that out.. simple logic will avail you!

Where do you get this from? And Paul was martyred, btw, most people would not die for a lie.
sure they would, why not? All you need is convictions in what you are doing. Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg were 'Martyred' for what they believed in. All you need is a point of view!



They showed weakness during the ministry of Christ, but it is God who preserves his teaching, and Christ promised to be with His Church till the end of the world. Many of the Apostles and early Christians suffered the most excruciating forms of death, only the Grace of God could give them the strength to suffer as they did. Peter for example was condemned to crucifixion, but he felt so unworthy to die as Christ did, that he requested he be crucified upside down.

This is all filler and is inconsequential to the facts of the matter!
dreams and promises have no bearing on what actually takes place and has taken place since!

all the best


Wa salaam[/QUOTE]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar Threads

Back
Top