What Did Jesus Say About Christmas?

[جوري]

Do you know what the word veneration means? Because to encase a stone in silver, put it on public display in a sacred place, and then have thousands of people eagerly touch and kiss it seems a lot like veneration.

Do you understand what I meant when I wrote, if it weren't in existence it wouldn't make a difference all together? To kiss is considered an innovation and if you knew anything about tawheed or fiqh you'd realize, that, that is in fact disallowed. Its purpose is the starting point of the kaaba no more no less!

I'd say even as secular historians of no religious affiliation are concerned...

:lol: yeah, we have heard of the two of them, sad, how even that fails to avail you....

You know we have had many christians on board and for years.. I'd live for the day when one of you surprises me with something a little less... well... indoctrinated!

all the best

 

[جوري]

Hehe, well at least you have a sense of humor despite trying to evade a straightforward reading of the text. You can always accept what it says and still claim some Christian forged it

Yeah dude.. I found the Canterbury tales more consistent, I am yet to see you give a cohesive reply to the integrity of your bible and its authenticity for any English content or Latin.. *you know the language that Jesus spoke/the language of heaven* or was it Hebrew? or Aramaic? or Greek .. :hmm:

You need to look up 'fact' in the dictionary.. I don't think you are quite familiar with what it means and how to sustain it!

all the best

 

[Sojourn]

Do you understand what I meant when I wrote, if it weren't in existence it wouldn't make a difference all together? To kiss is considered an innovation and if you knew anything about tawheed or fiqh you'd realize, that, that is in fact disallowed. Its purpose is the starting point of the kaaba no more no less!

You're mistaken, kissing the black stone is not "bidah" or "shirk":

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:

'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667

 

[جوري]

You're mistaken, kissing the black stone is not "bidah" or "shirk":

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:

'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667

I don't have time to look at the hadith in Arabic to see it word for word.. but it is unimportant, think this is the part you should have rather bolded .'you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone'

I fail to see how a stone that benefits nor harms anyone as per hadith, is akin to this:

you should try harder, you always seem to come up empty.. taking statues for gods me thinkus is far grievous than looking at an age old stone and acknowledging it for what it is .. just that!

all the best

 

[paradise88]

Very good and interesting thread Masha'Allah. I ask so many people what is christmas why do u celebrate it and they answer with one word: Presents! Some do say they think it to be the day Jesus (pbuh) was born. Anyhoo its clear that the bible does not suggest the celebration of christmas at all yet people make it out like its a christian celebration. It doesn't make sense lol

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Walking around a cube and venerating a black stone are examples of Pagan rituals that Muslims still hold on too.

It's a stone and nothing more then that. It can neither hear nor see nor help us or bring us relief from distress. We do not take it as a god, an intecessor or an intermediary with god or anything of the sort. The great companion Umar came to the Black Stone and kissed it and then he said: "I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet saws kiss you, I would not have kissed you."

I don't know where you got this myth from, but worshipping it something we certainly don't do.

 

[Sojourn]

Peace Abd al Latif,

I don't know where you got this myth from, but worshipping it something we certainly don't do.

My point was that Pagan practices can also be found in Islam, and I don't think anyone has claimed that you worship the blackstone, but it can be said that you venerate it.

 

[aamirsaab]

Peace Abd al Latif,

My point was that Pagan practices can also be found in Islam,

Name me one.

..and I don't think anyone has claimed that you worship the blackstone, but it can be said that you venerate it.

Venerate is quite simply the wrong terminology to use in this context; respect would be more appropriate.

 

[OurIslamic]

He didn't say anything, it didn't exist while he was alive.

 

[Sojourn]

Peace Aamir

Name me one.

Circumventing the Ka'ba and venerating the Black Stone are practices that the Pagans of Mecca performed.

Venerate is quite simply the wrong terminology to use in this context; respect would be more appropriate.

Why is that more appropriate? The black stone is enshrined in silver, on public display in the holiest sanctuary of the Islamic religion, and the focus of ritual attention when Hajis walk by it to kiss it or touch it.


Take care,
Sojourn

 

[aamirsaab]

Peace Aamir



Circumventing the Ka'ba and venerating the Black Stone are practices that the Pagans of Mecca performed.

Please provide evidence that pagans did this and specifically WHEN. Sheik google only provides a list of hate sites, so I would very much like to know more about this ''pagan'' ritual.

Why is that more appropriate? The black stone is enshrined in silver, on public display in the holiest sanctuary of the Islamic religion, and the focus of ritual attention when Hajis walk by it to kiss it or touch it.


Take care,
Sojourn

Veneration 's meaning is too close to ''worshiping'' - which is only done to Allah, NOT the stone.

 

[Sojourn]

Peace Aamir,

Please provide evidence that pagans did this and specifically WHEN. Sheik google only provides a list of hate sites, so I would very much like to know more about this ''pagan'' ritual.

I'm actually surprised you are unaware of this Aamir. Surah 7 aya 31, according to Ibn Kathir, addresses the Pagan practice of going around the Kaba in barren clothes, or even naked:

"They said that this Ayah was revealed about the idolators who used to perform Tawaf around the House while naked."
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=17729

And here is a quote from the Sealed Nectar:
"People of pre-Islamic period, whilst believing in superstition, they still retained some of the Abrahamic traditions such as devotion to the Holy Sanctuary, circumambulation, observance of pilgrimage, the vigil on ‘Arafah and offering sacrifices, all of these were observed fully despite some innovations that adulterated these holy rituals."
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch1s3.html#Religions of the Arabs

The author of the above quote acknowledges circumbulation around the Ka'ba was performed by the mushrikin, but he attributes it to an Abrahamic tradition.

Veneration 's meaning is too close to ''worshiping'' - which is only done to Allah, NOT the stone.

Most Muslims I know don't distinguish between veneration and adoration but they are different. Western and Eastern Christians are familiar with this distinction. I think Fr John Hardon S.J.'s definition is sufficient and useful to explain this distinction:


ADORATION
The act of religion by which God is recognized as alone worthy of supreme honor because he is infinitely perfect, has supreme dominion over humans, and the right to human total dependence on the Creator. It is at once an act of mind and will, expressing itself in appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice.

VENERATION OF SAINTS
Honor paid to the saints who, by their intercession and example and in their possession of God, minister to human sanctification, helping the faithful grow in Christian virtue. Venerating the saints does not detract from the glory given to God, since whatever good they possess is a gift from his bounty. They reflect the divine perfections, and their supernatural qualities result from the graces Christ merited for them by the Cross. In the language of the Church's liturgy, the saints are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, as adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of his Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Spirit.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=37057

 

[aamirsaab]

Peace Aamir,



I'm actually surprised you are unaware of this Aamir. Surah 7 aya 31, according to Ibn Kathir, addresses the Pagan practice of going around the Kaba in barren clothes, or even naked:

"They said that this Ayah was revealed about the idolators who used to perform Tawaf around the House while naked."
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=17729

And here is a quote from the Sealed Nectar:
"People of pre-Islamic period, whilst believing in superstition, they still retained some of the Abrahamic traditions such as devotion to the Holy Sanctuary, circumambulation, observance of pilgrimage, the vigil on ‘Arafah and offering sacrifices, all of these were observed fully despite some innovations that adulterated these holy rituals."
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch1s3.html#Religions of the Arabs

The author of the above quote acknowledges circumbulation around the Ka'ba was performed by the mushrikin, but he attributes it to an Abrahamic tradition.

Meaning, the pagans COPIED the Arabs. So the act of circumventing the Kaba is not a pagan ritual; it is an Islamic ritual (via connection to previous abrahamic faiths, all from the same God) that the pagans b*st*rdized. The Ayat concerning the wearing of adornments was then revealed to prevent further b*st*rdization and to correct the people.

Most Muslims I know don't distinguish between veneration and adoration but they are different. Western and Eastern Christians are familiar with this distinction. I think Fr John Hardon S.J.'s definition is sufficient and useful to explain this distinction:

ADORATION
The act of religion by which God is recognized as alone worthy of supreme honor because he is infinitely perfect, has supreme dominion over humans, and the right to human total dependence on the Creator. It is at once an act of mind and will, expressing itself in appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice.

VENERATION OF SAINTS
Honor paid to the saints who, by their intercession and example and in their possession of God, minister to human sanctification, helping the faithful grow in Christian virtue. Venerating the saints does not detract from the glory given to God, since whatever good they possess is a gift from his bounty. They reflect the divine perfections, and their supernatural qualities result from the graces Christ merited for them by the Cross. In the language of the Church's liturgy, the saints are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, as adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of his Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Spirit.
[EMAIL="http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=37057"]http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=37057[/EMAIL]

Some muslims may venerate it but that does not mean it is to be venerated in Islam - it is an act of Sunnah to touch the stone, but some muslims misunderstand this and take it too far (which can lead to veneration). It happens on Mt Hijrah as well, when people start praying towards the ''birth'' place of Adam [PBUH]. I know because I have seen it.

In either case they are both merely parts of Islamic history: important to be aware of but NOT obligatory (in relation to any rituals), so I again stand by my previous comment of venerating being innapropriate on this matter.

p.s; Birds do tawaf around the kaba - guess they are following pagan traditions too

 

[Sojourn]

Peace Aamir,

Meaning, the pagans COPIED the Arabs. So the act of circumventing the Kaba is not a pagan ritual; it is an Islamic ritual (via connection to previous abrahamic faiths, all from the same God)

The Islamic position is that Abraham is the source of these practices, and the Pagans simply continued them unknowingly. It is ultimately a position of faith, and serves to explain the continuation of these practices.

Some muslims may venerate it but that does not mean it is to be venerated in Islam - it is an act of Sunnah to touch the stone, but some muslims misunderstand this and take it too far (which can lead to veneration).

There is nothing wrong with veneration.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Peace Abd al Latif,

My point was that Pagan practices can also be found in Islam, and I don't think anyone has claimed that you worship the blackstone, but it can be said that you venerate it.

If you have a dictionary then look up the meaning of words 'worship' and 'ritual' and you'll see what the difference is. There is a fine line between worshipping something and taking it as a god and treating something as a part of a package of practices performed to attain a single goal - coming closer to god.

The saying of 'Umar you quoted in your own post proves that even the companions of the Messenger of God see the stone as nothing but a stone.

Where then do you find this as a pagan practice and veneration of a rock?!

 

[Sojourn]

Peace Abd-al Latif,

If you have a dictionary then look up the meaning of words 'worship' and 'ritual' and you'll see what the difference is. There is a fine line between worshipping something and taking it as a god and treating something as a part of a package of practices performed to attain a single goal - coming closer to god.

I'm noticing a common misunderstanding, and that is using the words "worship" and "venerate" interchangeably. Worship basically means to honor, and in contemporary English it has been narrowed to the supreme honor given to God because He has supreme dominion and all creatures are dependent on Him. But then there is a lesser form of honor that is given to Saints, Angels, and certain objects worthy of this honor (i.e. fragments of the true cross,) and this lesser form of honor is called veneration. The reason why veneration doesn't detract from the supreme honor given to God was already mentioned above.

The saying of 'Umar you quoted in your own post proves that even the companions of the Messenger of God see the stone as nothing but a stone.

You don't have to recognize an object as Divine to venerate it.

Where then do you find this as a pagan practice and veneration of a rock?!

I say it's a Pagan practice because Pagans were venerating the Black Stone even before Muhammad.


Pax,
Sojourn